nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

The Adobe pdf question - Why?

Fred J. Morgan

It has been asked many times, It will continue to be asked - Why does LOGOS refuse to add a pdf format reader/library to the LOGOS system.

I have, I believe answered this question in a previous Blog concerning the financial concerns of LOGOS allowing "Free" books added to their program.

LOGOS on the other hand states WHY add this since their are so many other readers available. If we were to examine this response we would have to answere WHY LOGOS? There are many readers of books available..

So we are stuck between Corporate concerns and Adding Convience for cusstomers to LOGOS.

I would like to add one more reason for inclusion of Pdfs to LOGOS.

LOGOS Corporate conc erns for selling books is causing a non-intentional PREJUDICE to adding RESOURCES to the library.

As a Mennonite I find it disturbing that little can be found in the way of denomination books for my faith. These are not UNKNOW BOOK but are Historically KEY BOOKS to any Christian library. The reason is that LOGOS does not believe demand can justify the expense. This is where Pdfs can fill tghe BLANKS in our libraries. Not just for Mennonite Books - but for many NON-COMMERCIALLY viable BOOKS.

Yes PLEASE SEND some of your reqested books which are found on Pdf but are not considered by LOGOS..... Idea

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Fred J. Morgan

"""""""" JUST A FEW [:O]

The Complete Writings of Menno Simons: Circa 1496-1561
The Legacy of Michael Sattler (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 1) (Michael Sattler)
The Writings of Pilgram Marpeck (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 2)
Anabaptism in Outline: Selected Primary Sources (Classics of the Radical Reformation series, vol. 3) (Walter Klaassen, ed.)
The Sources of Swiss Anabaptism (Classics of the Radical Reformation series, vol. 4) (Conrad Grebel, Leland Harder, ed.)
Balthasar Hübmaier: Theologian of Anabaptism (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 5) (Balthasar Hübmaier)
The Writings of Dirk Philips (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 6)
Early Anabaptist Spirituality (Classics of Western Spirituality series) (Daniel Liechty, ed.)
The Martyrs' Mirror (Thieleman Van Bragt; trans. by Joseph F. Sohm); must include the famous etchings by Jan Luiken
Readings from Mennonite Writings, New and Old (J. Craig Haas, ed.)
DICTIONARY OF EARLY CHRISTIAN BELIEFS
The Schleitheim Confession
Dordrecht Confession of Faith
Confession of Faith in a Mennonite Perspective (Herald Press) - contemporary
The Anabaptist Story: An Introduction to Sixteenth-Century Anabaptism, 3rd ed. (William R. Estep) - already available; part of the 2 volume "The Anabaptists" collection
Erasmus, the Anabaptists, and the Great Commission (Abraham Friesen) - already available; part of the 2 volume "The Anabaptists" collection
A Contemporary Anabaptist Theology (Thomas N. Finger) - already available
Mirror of the Martyrs (John S. Oyer & Robert S. Kreider)
Marpeck: A Life of Dissent and Conformity (Studies in Anabaptist and Mennonite History) (Walter Klaassen & William Klassen)
Dirk Philips, Friend and Colleague of Menno Simons, 1504-1568 (Jacobus ten Doornkaat Koolman, trans. by William Keeney)
The Life and Thought of Michael Sattler (C. Arnold Snyder)
An Introduction to Mennonite History (Cornelius Dyck)
The Anabaptist Vision (Harold S. Bender) - originally a presidential address presented to the American Society of Church History, this classic text was published in booklet format by Herald Press in 1944
The Mennonite Encyclopedia
Spiritual Life in Anabaptism (Cornelius Dyck)
Glimpses of Mennonite History and Doctrine (John Christian Wenger)
Anabaptist History & Theology: An Introduction (C. Arnold Snyder)
Mennonite Historical Atlas (Helmut Huebert)
Introduction To The Russian Mennonites (Wally Kroeker)
Biblical Interpretation in the Anabaptist Tradition (Studies in the Believers Church Tradition) (Stuart Murray)
Becoming Anabaptist: The Origin and Significance of Sixteenth Century Anabaptism (J. Denny Weaver)
Who Are the Anabaptists: Amish, Brethren, Hutterites, and Mennonites (Donald B. Kraybill)
Beliefs: Mennonite Faith and Practice (John D. Roth)
"Doctrins of the Bible" by Daniel Kauffman - Herald Press.
Ken Ham COLLECTIONS
Aig COLLECTIONS
SCHROLL PUBLISHING
LIGHTHOUSE CHRISTIAN MINISTRIES PUBLISHING
M&M PUBLISHING
HEROLD PRESS
CHRISTIAN LIGHT PUBLISHING
PATHWAY PUBLISHING
ROD AND STAFF PUMLISHING
LAMP AND LIGHT PUBLISHING

Thank You and God Bless

fRED

DominicM

It has been asked many times, It will continue to be asked - Why does LOGOS refuse to add a pdf format reader/library to the LOGOS system.

I have, I believe answered this question in a previous Blog concerning the financial concerns of LOGOS allowing "Free" books added to their program.

LOGOS on the other hand states WHY add this since their are so many other readers available. If we were to examine this response we would have to answere WHY LOGOS? There are many readers of books available..

The problem with a PDF reader is it is poinless as your files aren't indexed,..

So we are stuck between Corporate concerns and Adding Convience for cusstomers to LOGOS.

I would like to add one more reason for inclusion of Pdfs to LOGOS.

LOGOS Corporate concerns for selling books is causing a non-intentional PREJUDICE to adding RESOURCES to the library.

Sorry but with Logos 3, and PBB these "financial and predudicial concerns" argument is blown away.....

just look at http://www.stilltruth.com/page/libronix_pbb_files at come of the user contributrd resources.. and I think you may need to rethink your position

PBB is coming back in v4, hopefully by end off year

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/115934#Comment_115934

Hi Fred,

It is good to see what appears to be another Anabaptist here. [:D] If you do a search for "journals" in the forums you will come across a thread that myself, Rosie and a few others were talking about Anabaptist Journals and the lesser known, non-website publishers for the Anabaptist theology.

God bless,

Rick

MJ. Smith

Why does LOGOS refuse to add a pdf format reader/library to the LOGOS system.

You can make links to PDF documents - I have a large PDF section in favorites. But there is no advantage to adding a PDF reader to Logos unless Logos chose to create the ability to attach notes to PDF's where the notes were stored and searchable within Logos. Logos does support a PDF library at http://books.logos.com/

I do not see Logos concentrating on what sells as prejudice. There are far more traditions that are omitted than are included. Lutheran, Catholic and Jewish presses have addressed the issue by partnering with Logos. Have you considered approaching Mennonite presses and asking them to partner with Logos?

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/115941#Comment_115941

Another issue that kind of relates to a lack of PBB and a lack of a way to add PDF files to Logos 4, is the fact that there are many folks that would like to have these things all in one program rather than using several different programs, I think this is a good thing for Logos. If a person such as myself can have everything in one program it becomes easier to spend all my money with Logos and to stop looking at the competions programs to fulfill my needs. The results would be I would be more faithful to Logos, which would be a positive thing for them.

But, what has happened, at least for me in the last 6 months has been a forced shift to other sources to fulfill my needs. I will not do without the many free and helpful public domain resources I have, and I don't have too! Rather than waiting for Logos 4 to bring back my pbb files, I have turned to putting my public domain books into another bible study program. This program is easy to use and allows me to put the books that I want into the program with ease. I can hyper-link verses, place the books in collections and search them. Sure it is not as nice as it would be to have everything in Logos, but at least I have them in a program that I can use them and have easy access to them and different bibles and resources. I can take notes in this system and even write a book in it, and it prints! if Logos would have done things differently I would not even be using this other program.

The result has been, I am shifting away from the hope that Logos will be the one program that can do everything for me!

At one time I had also hoped that, I could get brothers and sisters with little money into a less expensive Logos program and then allow them to cheaply add pbb resources to the smaller program until they saw the need for and could afford the more expensive Logos packages, but I am not waiting, I am now giving these people a completely free program with over 1000 resources already in it. For many of these people they will have little reason to ever change over to Logos, because this other program will meet their needs, they will do wiithout copyridghted books.

I really would have liked to have seen Logos get these people involved with their software, even at one of their lower price packages, and then have tons of public domain resources they could add to those packages for free or even allow them to put their own public domain resources into the program, then as they grew, they would have been more likely to upgrade to Logos more epensive bigger packages or buy books one at a time. But at least they would have been in Logos!!!

The way it is, they will have no connection to Logos and they may just stay with what they have or buy a cheaper commerical software to get copyrighted materials.

I have been discouraged by what has happened.

In Christ,

Jim

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/115969#Comment_115969

The result has been, I am shifting away from the hope that Logos will be the one program that can do everything for me!

I've never expect Logos to do everything for me. In fact, I would be interested in what features people go outside of Logos to do. For example:

1) for the Vulgate I go to free software that includes the Glossa Ordinaria

2) for doctrine I go to either of two free denominational programs

3) for diagramming sentences I frequently go to a linguist tree diagram

4) for webs, networks and mindmaps I go to an educational software package

5) for presentation, lesson handouts, reflections (lay sermons) I use an open source suite

6) for L3 resource creation (timelines, lectionaries, PBB's) I use an HTML/XML editor

7) for English dictionaries, I often switch to word-net style resources (both on my computer and on the web)

8) for lectionary/prayer book references, I switch to specialized software (outside my denomination)

9) for PDF's I frequently use a non-standard reader/converter

I don't expect Logos to ever replace all these functions. On the other hand, my list of outside software has gone down as Logos capabilities rise. I have dropped both a timeline and a Kellogg-Reed sentence diagramming applications. And I have links within Logos to open my additional applications. To me, I starting Bible Study app requires only a handful of resources:

Bible translation used by lectionary
Bible translation used by children's lectionary
Catechism of the Catholic Church
a Bible dictionary
a Biblical timeline

I would be leery of giving them 1000 resources - too much temptation to spend one's time on what others have said about the Bible rather than studying the Bible.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/115980#Comment_115980

MJ. Smith, how many resources would you give them?

In Christ,

Jim

Jason Au

I'd just like to chip in with some technical issues, since this issue may not actually be as simple as it might appear.

Whilst the PDF format is one that has been well understood for some time now, unless the Logos 4 programmers were to write a PDF reader from scratch, they'd either have to talk to Adobe (doubtful, both in intent and possibility of success) or work off one of the many open sourced PDF readers. This second source, though, is fraught with legal hurdles depending on the open source licenses covering that code - for example, some licenses require that any code that uses the open source code must itself become publicly open, which would be problematic for Logos' business model I imagine.

The PDF format is actually built for conveying documents in a consistent-to-print format. That is, in theory, if I printed a PDF document off my PC, and you print it off your Mac, we'd both get the same result. So, PDF's maintain page formatting and so-forth. Logos 4, as far as I know, is not a document-to-print application. It's built for optimising reading off the screen. This means that the fundamental architectures of PDF and Logos are at odds.

So there are actual technical hurdles to putting PDF into Logos, and so the PBB route, as others have already mentioned, seems to be the best way forward in this regard.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/115984#Comment_115984

MJ. Smith, how many resources would you give them?

I would give them the 5 listed above. I would encourage them to expand the number of translations they had and then have them start adding commentaries. I have noticed that I have a different base metaphor for Bible study than many on the forums. I think of Bible study primarily as a conversation with God - my Bible study tools are merely conversation starters. Many on the forum appear to have a metaphor of study as in an academic study of a fixed (dead) text in which they enlist the help of the Holy Spirit in ferreting out truth and application through their Bible Study tools.

I can see how the second metaphor encourages the use of more resources but I would still be concerned about overwhelming people with hundreds of resources rather than a handpicked few. Now that 'handpicked" few would vary both by denomination and by interests and education of the user. But when I teach Bible study I try hard to encourage all the students to start with the Scripture and nothing but the Scripture (except dictionary, timeline, maps) then move towards commentaries, Early Church Fathers, art inspired by Scripture, etc. [I can't resist: should I call it the Catholic "sola scriptura" method? [:D]]

So why do I include the Catechism in the initial resources? Simply to allow the linking of theological questions back to Scripture - and eventually Early Church Fathers and church documents. For many churches I would replace it with a creedal statement with scriptural references.

So why commentaries so "late"? My concern is that many Bible study programs and commentaries lead one to a particular expectation as to what God wishes to talk about. I prefer that it be left to God to determine the direction of the conversation - He knows what I need to hear and may use the text as a springboard to that topic rather than what the text I started with means. Note that when preparing reflections (lay homilies), I use a pattern much closer to the academic metaphor.

More than you asked, but ...

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116022#Comment_116022

So there are actual technical hurdles to putting PDF into Logos,

Well stated

Gary O'Neal

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/115934#Comment_115934

The problem with a PDF reader is it is poinless as your files aren't indexed,..

I've got over 1000 (just checked - over 2000 files; over 3 gig) pdf files -- books and journal articles. These are all entered into Zotero which does index them. It's a snap to search all these. It would be nice to have them all in L4, but not something high on my need list.

Fred J. Morgan

Hello and God Bless - I am very happy to see the response. This is alway the first step to change. I apoligize for spelling and typing.. currently recovering from stroke. [:O]

As for this Blog... I have used Pdfs which seemed to be the best way to introduce the problem of not having the resources available except those which a FINANCABLY VIABLE to LOGOS.

Some Quick Answers... THUS FAR.[8-|]

1- ADOBE Pdf can be changed very EASILY to HTML and can be made Indexable quite easily you can even cut and copy to your favorite word processor (Providing the Pdf is open). Those with Adobe Pro or those with using Open Source programs like Open Office know that this processs works in both directions. Word or Text can be made Pdf's or HTML with most word processors automatically.

2- PBB are just a propriatary book system which allows LOGOS to maintain control of book and resources published to LOGOS... They allow you a usable Book but hold back many LOGOS features... thus if LOGOS decides to publish a book which is already available in PBB form they will still give you features to assure your purchase. Those using Libronix 3 with PBB know this. Many well know works are available in PBB form from "Truth is Still Truth" website, but are not as usable as the LOGOS version.

3- If LOGOS wanted a Simple automatic PDF (html, Word, etc.,) to Simple PBB format book converasion. this could be added, Not that complicate. Open Source programs do this routeinly with Pdf format files. PDF are not as complicated to transfer as imagined... just check freeware and opensource programs.. THEY DO THIS WITH AT HOME PROGRAMMERS!

4- Publishers being added to LOGOS list of cooperating Publishers is NOT an ANSWER. Try finding Holman's very popular series of "Quicksource Guides". Just because a publisher is in the LOGOS group does not mean LOGOS will release the resource. It has to be a FINANCIAL decision by LOGOS. Some3 books like Martyrs Mirror are public domain... yet these to are not found in the LOGOS resources of PrePubs. I understand LOGOS is a business. I tend to believe LOGOS business should be the LOGOS library reader and not the LOGOS publishing business.

5- If Financial viabilty is allowed to be the only reason for release - then thousands of very important resource will not be available except through Limited ability PBBs whenever these are re-added. (No Financial reason to hurry) These of course will be available only by those which purchase the purchase the PBB authoring programs discresion on which books they want to make. Of course you to may purchased the PBB Authoring program and make your own inferior copy of a current available HTML or Pdf book.

5- Pdfs could be add in current form - I agree this is not my real intent but I would like this over nothing. Some LOGOS users do use other Software with LOGOS and have managed this well... GOOD FOR YOU. May God bless your studies. I wish I could appreciate this as you do.

6- Other Bible software does offer some great feature to add indexed works without expensive add-ins. This is a choose, I for one like my LOGOS to much to change and I am not capable of learning and using two systems at once. Nor do I see how this is benifical in doing easy functional reasearch.

When I buy a library program I like it to be really open to the many publication that I want. I am sure this is of concern to most of us when we purchased LOGOS years ago (or recently). I love my LOGOS but miss the ability of using resource which are I believe essential for Bible study. Especially those in my denomination. Books like the writting of Menno Simons or Martyr's Mirror or Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs... are more useful than PRE PUBS of Theologies which LOGOS have in Multitudes or Another set of Commentaries to add to LOGOS hundred of Commentaries.

I stated that this is Censorship..... and it is but not of intent of my DENOMINATION (I Pray!) But I also PRAY that the owners and managers of LOGO will remember that they should not YOKE THEIR PROGRAM to MAMMON.
I would pray that LOGOS would start re-evaluating some of the SUGGESTIONS submitted on the basis of "DO WE HAVE THIS RESORSE IN SOME FORM ALREAD - AND WOULD THIS RESOURCE BE AN ADDITION - NOT A RE-ADDITION OF THE SAME OLD....." What do I mean by this.... SIMPLE: would you like you library to have only Thirty Different Encyclopedias but no Biographies? --- When LOGOS excludes these works which are not as often used and only present the works which sell the most - WE LOOSE! No: Meno Simmons - Dirk Phillips - Michael Sattler - Pilgram Marpeck - Conrad Gable - LeLand Harder - Balthauser Hubmaier ----- Classics like The Martyrs Mirror - The Hutterite Big Book----- NOR WRITERS LIKE KEN HAM - DAVID BERCOT - WORKS FROM MINISTRIES LIKE "LIGHTHOUSE OF UTAH" "M&M" - --- PUBLISHERS LIKE SCROLL - ROD AND STAFF - HEROLD PRESS - PATHWAY - CHRISTIAN LIGHT - LAMP AND LIGHT AND THOSE FROM OTHER DENOMINATION WHICH SARE IN THE WORD OF GOD MANY BOOKS OF CHRISTIAN USE.

I appreciate the comments.... KEEP THEM COMING... God Bless your concerns and REMEMBER- don't belittle ANYONE. We are all one in Christ Jesus.

Those with negative comments or wish to berate these or other... Please go to the Agnostic Forum...If you can't find it just keep looking.

REMEMBER also to ADD your BOOK List that LOGOS has be ignoring in the suggestion FORUM.[Y]

In Christ

Jeff

The Complete Writings of Menno Simons: Circa 1496-1561
The Legacy of Michael Sattler (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 1) (Michael Sattler)

The Writings of Pilgram Marpeck (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 2)

Anabaptism in Outline: Selected Primary Sources (Classics of the Radical Reformation series, vol. 3) (Walter Klaassen, ed.)
The Sources of Swiss Anabaptism (Classics of the Radical Reformation series, vol. 4) (Conrad Grebel, Leland Harder, ed.)

Balthasar Hübmaier: Theologian of Anabaptism (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 5) (Balthasar Hübmaier)
The Writings of Dirk Philips

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116027#Comment_116027

Sorry - not quite factual - just check public domain, freeware and open source and pdfs - Open Source and private programers work with pdf all the time... Most Word processors have the ability to convert to and from PDF and HTML even CUT and Copy is available in most Pdf's. Open Office the FREE Microsoft Office look a like (but actually better) has this capability. Some Bible libraries also have the PDF or Book add function. PBB Authoring actually uses HTML for a basis whcih Pdfs can be easilly converted to. But all this is not really the problem. The problem is that many book and resources are being denied. Even a book indexed only by title is better than no resource. Blessings and thanks for looking.

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/115934#Comment_115934

[:D] Blessings

Thanks again for your reply... However I do not agree with it.... I do thank you for your reply.

As for LOGOS 3 PBBs - they were only available for publication from those who would Purchase the Authoring Program - NOW USELESS for LOGOS4. These were also very limited thus leaving LOGOS the ability to re-Issue a better version.

PBBs could be derived from HTML - My Adobe Pro will output to HTML as will my Open Office. Disreguard PDFs how about ANY FORMAT of resource. LOGOS is PROPRIATARTY for what reason??? Honestly - we understand finance and business... We also understand the Yoke of the Word and Mammon. We must balance the two toallow LOGOS the ability to offer all resources not just those financially Viable...

Not releasing a book because it is not financially viable is not intentional Prejudice against my denomination but the end is the same..... I LOOSE!a

God Bless

Jeff

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116022#Comment_116022

Blessings

PDFS formatting is at odds with LOGOS. This is intentional since both are propriatary. However Pdfs can be changed-cut/pasted(if Open) and made from many word processors. They can even be converted to HTML - HTML was the basis of LOGO PBBs........ LOGOS in Open SOURCE would remove this hurtle in a matter of days... Open Source is not going to happen. LOGOS will not remove propriatary license... I don't blame them, they are in it for the profit.

I just want the concern of non-financially viable resources being overlooked for released.

PBB THOUGH USEFUL- ARE NOT THE ANSWER.

Thank you for your time and concern. I really appreciate your comments.

God Bless you and your family.

Jeff

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/115938#Comment_115938

Blessings brother,

several brother in my church use LOGOS and are also concerned that less finacally viable books such as those listed in the original post are overlooked for the SAME OLD COMMENTARIES, THEOLOGIES AND DICTIONARIES. All are usefull but were are the other books?

Anyways... we live in Bloundtstown Florida in a small 1950's resettlement community. I pray that god may bless all and stir the hearts of all christian to concerns of our denomination. We are all in Christ Jesus and except our gift ov salvation.

May God Bless you.

Fill free to write - morganfj -at- gmail -dot- com 0r morganfj at facebook - see profile for webpage.

Jeff [8-|]

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116050#Comment_116050

Blessings - Thanks for the Zotero TIP - I have been using AstroGrep for searching WORD file but need something for Pdf's.

God Bless

Jeff

Fred J. Morgan

KEEP the REPLYS COMING.... WILL answer all I can.

Books not being offered becasue they are not Financally Viable.

GOD BLESS Jeff

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116064#Comment_116064

As for this Blog... I have used Pdfs which seemed to be the best way to introduce the problem of not having the resources available except those which a FINANCABLY VIABLE to LOGOS.

Obviously, if Logos spends their resources on creating books that are not financially viable, we all lose out - Logos ceases to exist. Note that there are few resources for my tradition.

ADOBE Pdf can be changed very EASILY to HTML

While I admit that there are many tools that do this easily, I've never found one that does it well. Why? Because the PDF over specifies the layout and removing all the formatting that belongs in style sheets not HTML is a nuisance. Not to mention I'd rather work in XML.

PBB are just a propriatary book system which allows LOGOS to maintain control of book and resources published to LOGOS..

As one who has created many PBB's, I find it mind-boggling to consider PBB's as a way to maintain control. I am very anxious for PBB's that don't have some of the limits of L3 but rather let us build full Logos resources. I see PBB's as a way to allow us to include documents in Logos indices and searches. If I don't need the links, there is no reason to put it in Logos format

PDF are not as complicated to transfer as imagined... just check freeware and opensource programs.. THEY DO THIS WITH AT HOME PROGRAMMERS!

I have checked freeware and opensource programs - none of which work as well as you seem to assume. Admittedly, as a retired (home) programmer, my expectations are high. I'm not sure that you recognize the difference between a conversion that appears to "work" but that limits the presentation and linkage options and a document in its native format. PDF's, HTML, PBB all are specific formats designed for a particular purpose. Using them as if they were something else is usually a recipe for disaster.

If LOGOS wanted a Simple automatic PDF (html, Word, etc.,) to Simple PBB format book converasion

In Logos 3 the conversion from Word and HTML was a simple conversion with the resultant limitations on linkage. I understand that the L4 version will have fewer limitations which I suspect means that there is more (optional) manual work required on the creator's part.

Publishers being added to LOGOS list of cooperating Publishers is NOT an ANSWER.

Here you've made assumptions that I did not mean to imply. I believe that it would be empirically provable that the quantity of Lutheran, Catholic and Jewish resources has been increased by the partnerships with particular presses. Standard and Nelson both publish items with Logos disks in them. I was not thinking of those publishers from whom Logos purchases specific rights. So it's not an answer from your perspective; it's still a help from mine. Then, again, I think we are seeking different resources.

If Financial viabilty is allowed to be the only reason for release - then thousands of very important resource will not be available except through Limited ability PBBs whenever these are re-added

The new PBB's are to be in full Logos 4 format. For PBB's the primary reason for develop may well be personal interest rather than financial. I've never expected a physical library to have everything I might want for a particular research project - that's a reason for friends and inter-library loan. I don't expect Logos to have everything, I expect it's offerings to continue to grow influenced by the needs of the individuals using the product.

Pdfs could be add in current form

True, but I fail to see what this gains us over Favorites and a reader of our choice. There are other features I'd much rather have Logos focus its resources on.

Other Bible software does offer some great feature to add indexed works without expensive add-ins.

In Logos 4 the concept of "add-ins" is being dropped.

I stated that this is Censorship..... and it is but not of intent of my DENOMINATION (I Pray!) But I also PRAY that the owners and managers of LOGO will remember that they should not YOKE THEIR PROGRAM to MAMMON.

Now I have two questions for you:

Do you think that all views that are under represented are due to censorship? If so, I can name a number of groups that have considerably greater reason to complain than you.
Are you aware that your use of bold, capitals and underlining is the equivalent of shouting; shout tends to ensure that your message gets lost in the racket.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116068#Comment_116068

Sorry - not quite factual - just check public domain, freeware and open source and pdfs - Open Source and private programers work with pdf all the time...

Is this intended to be a response to Jason Au, he is accurate in his description of PDF's. The most frequent manner of creating PDF's is to intercept the print file and convert it to PDF format. Take a PDF and run in through Adobe's conversion process into HTML or WORD - you'll find it littered with the information required to accurately reconstruct the physical layout of the output.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116076#Comment_116076

PDFS formatting is at odds with LOGOS. This is intentional since both are propriatary.

This is the equivalent of saying bananas are at odds with kumquats. This is intentional since both are specific species. PDF's are intended to provide predictable printing and presentation. Logos is intended to be a linked, research tool. This is intentional since they serve separate markets.

Garrett Ho

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116064#Comment_116064

I appreciate the comments.... KEEP THEM COMING... God Bless your concerns and REMEMBER- don't belittle ANYONE. We are all one in Christ Jesus.

Those with negative comments or wish to berate these or other... Please go to the Agnostic Forum...If you can't find it just keep looking.

[^o)] Many of the comments I just understood as people explaining why it is not as simple a task as you make it seem to incorporate PDFs. I personally do not see a conspiracy within Logos to prevent certain works from being published, nor do I judge as greedy. My attitude: Logos makes a product, have made its capabilities known, and I've purchased it for what it is and not for what I dream of it to be. Along the way they have surprised me with some wonderful new features, for which I am grateful.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116093#Comment_116093

MJ. Smith, I want to point out that I believe your point concerning how many resources to give out is missing the point.

You say you would give out only 5, but how many resources do you have???

The main issue is not how many resources a person has or doesn't have, it is that we teach the right attitude towards bible study. To me bible study is us going to where God has revealed Himself to us and searching for His message to us. It is an important part of our relationship with Him.

A good resource helps us to understand the language, culture, and historical facts of when the revelation was given. They may also help point us to other parts of God's revelation to help us compare and contrast concepts that God wants us to know about Himself.

However, the real key to understanding God's revelation is to be walking by faith and trusting that He will reveal Himself to us. It is His Holy Spirit that teaches us. The just shall live by faith! Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

You said you look at bible study as a conversation with God and your resources as conversation starters, that is great but why have only 5 conversation starters, why not 1000.

Don't forget, would you want me to pick out your 5 resouces? One thing I know for sure each person is different, and I have know idea that the best 5 resources for me would be the best 5 for everyone else, so I give choices and allow God and that person to decide which resources are best for the person.

Another point that I will make concerning this free program that I give out is, over 50% are given to pastors and elders, many of them already have good paper libraries and they can not afford and do not see a good reason for bible study software until after they have been shown how to use it.

Should they be limited to 5 resources? Only if you think you should only have 5 resoures!

But getting back to my point, I would like to be starting these people out in an inexpensive Logos program and see them upgrade it latter, once they see how much more useful an electronic bible study program is.

Currently, Logos is heading away from those people, computers that cost too much to run the program and no good access to inexpensive public domain resources, poor note taking, and no printing.

In Christ,

Jim

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116103#Comment_116103

I believe your point concerning how many resources to give out is missing the point.

I was simply illustrating that the number of resources available in a product is simply the number of resources available in a product. It says nothing about how a product does or does not lead one into serious Bible study. Obviously, I use Logos and substantially more resources than the minimum. Many who begin with the minimum go on to expand their libraries; others do not. I leave that between them and God.

why have only 5 conversation starters,
why not 1000.

From my perspective I have one conversation starter - the Word of God. He always gets the first word.[:)]

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116120#Comment_116120

MJ. Smith, I only used the term conversation starters about resources because you used that term and applied it to resources in a post on page 1...." I think of Bible study primarily as a conversation with God - my Bible study tools are merely conversation starters".

In Christ,

Jim

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116133#Comment_116133

No problem - I'm sometimes sloppy with my terminology.

Fred J. Morgan

A FINAL Word from the instigater of this BLOG.

What I have learned.

1- Extreme cautions should be used with spell check and re-reads when Blogging after a STROKE.

2- As like the Blogs and Forums of the Past- these site still contain "groupies" which seem to much know it all. This is the same as the Past (1990's) - Intruders to their forum community - welcome but don't upset the residents.

3- Extreme Loyality to Forum and Product... This I understand (to a Point) I too, love my LOGOS (to a point). [Y]

4- People are satisfied with the resources offered. I guess I am the oddball looking for Menno Simmons and Dirk Phillips or the Martyr's Mirror not to mention the odd specialized Apologetics from Sandra Tanner, Ken Ham, etc., or the Small Publishers like Scroll, M&M, Herold Press, etc. - Believe me I do not take offense at this but I believe broader resourses helps in research. I wish my Library contained the works found at Goshen College or even Andrsonville seminary - think of the research capibilities? (By the way, I use LOGOS for research into Gods work - not as a crutch fo belief as stgated in an e-mail to me... Why did that person own LOGOS I wonder... I pray he finds meaningful use for it in God's eyes - but I appreciate his concern for my soul.

5- Forums consist of "Experts" who appear to know more than you reguardless of your education. (By the way I just created 1- an outstanding indexed Pdf using Open Source - Open Office AND saved a Pdf in A Stand alone indexed HTML using Adobe Pro.)

6- Never Underline - Bold - Italic or any other form of emphisis....THIS IS CONSIDERED SHOUTING? ? ? (Really-even on a Christian site?) My Bad!

7- LOGOS USERS (AT LEAST ON THE forums I encountered) Are satisfied NOT to have additional resource outside the overpublished standards. I do admitt some of LOGOS' new resources are very nice (I seem to be paying a Pre-Pub ever month or so), this comment is directed at the Resources found in Seminary libraries and missing in LOGOs and the few denominational based and smaller publishers not represented. (Have you seen the Apostolic Bible Polyglot online at http://apostolicbible.com/index.htm?)

8- All discention (Like Comment 4, 7 and this one) leads too REPLYS usually in a non-christian form ( I try to alway reply in Christ's Love and with Blessing and respect and a thank you for your comment - Look for these in the replys)

9- I sould just continue to POST my list of "SUGGESTIONS" - and be saisfied they will probably not be made into LOGOS resources... After all they are not "Main Line Christian" . I guess it's Back to the CAVES (Anabaptist Humar)

10- FORUMS are not for me. [:#]

NO REPLYS ARE NEEDED FOR THIS ONE.......

Thank everyone who reply to this 'BLOG' and may God Bless you in your studies... Which by the way I found this exercise in futility on FORUMS Extremely waqsteful to my Study Time for God....

Please disreguard my CAPS... They were for emphise... I assure you I never shout except at the Devil.

GOD BLESS and BEST WISHES - I pray that God uses you and your Blogs in a possitive way, with rspect and love, satisfying to the Lord. If any haqve viewed any of my post as not being such. I pray for forgiveness.

Jeff - Fred J Morgan

[sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [sn] [:'(]

My last list of the MISSING- May they rest in peace - (More Humur) :0

The Complete Writings of Menno Simons: Circa 1496-1566
The Legacy of Michael Sattler (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 1) (Michael Sattler)
The Writings of Pilgram Marpeck (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 2)
Holman Quicksource to Christian Apologetics
Holman Quicsource to the Dead Sea Scroles
Holeman Quicksource to Understanding the Bible
Holeman Quicksource to Understanding Jesus
Holeman Quicksource to Understanding Creation
Ken Ham - One Race
David Bercot - Will the real Criswtian Please Stand Up
Works of George Brock - Various titles
Anabaptism in Outline: Selected Primary Sources (Classics of the Radical Reformation series, vol. 3) (Walter Klaassen, ed.)

The Sources of Swiss Anabaptism (Classics of the Radical Reformation series, vol. 4) (Conrad Grebel, Leland Harder, ed.)

Balthasar Hübmaier: Theologian of Anabaptism (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 5) (Balthasar Hübmaier)
The Writings of Dirk Philips (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 6)
Early Anabaptist Spirituality (Classics of Western Spirituality series) (Daniel Liechty, ed.)

The Martyrs' Mirror (Thieleman Van Bragt; trans. by Joseph F. Sohm); must include the famous etchings by Jan Luiken
Readings from Mennonite Writings, New and Old (J. Craig Haas, ed.)

DICTIONARY OF EARLY CHRISTIAN BELIEFS
The Schleitheim Confession
Dordrecht Confession of Faith
Confession of Faith in a Mennonite Perspective (Herald Press) - contemporary
The Anabaptist Story: An Introduction to Sixteenth-Century Anabaptism, 3rd ed. (William R. Estep) - already available; part of the 2 volume "The Anabaptists" collection
Erasmus, the Anabaptists, and the Great Commission (Abraham Friesen) - already available; part of the 2 volume "The Anabaptists" collection
A Contemporary Anabaptist Theology (Thomas N. Finger) - already available
Mirror of the Martyrs (John S. Oyer & Robert S. Kreider)
Marpeck: A Life of Dissent and Conformity (Studies in Anabaptist and Mennonite History) (Walter Klaassen & William Klassen)
Dirk Philips, Friend and Colleague of Menno Simons, 1504-1568 (Jacobus ten Doornkaat Koolman, trans. by William Keeney)
The Life and Thought of Michael Sattler (C. Arnold Snyder)
An Introduction to Mennonite History (Cornelius Dyck)
The Anabaptist Vision (Harold S. Bender) - originally a presidential address presented to the American Society of Church History, this classic text was published in booklet format by Herald Press in 1944
The Mennonite Encyclopedia
Spiritual Life in Anabaptism (Cornelius Dyck)
Glimpses of Mennonite History and Doctrine (John Christian Wenger)
Anabaptist History & Theology: An Introduction (C. Arnold Snyder)
Mennonite Historical Atlas (Helmut Huebert)
Introduction To The Russian Mennonites (Wally Kroeker)
Biblical Interpretation in the Anabaptist Tradition (Studies in the Believers Church Tradition) (Stuart Murray)
Becoming Anabaptist: The Origin and Significance of Sixteenth Century Anabaptism (J. Denny Weaver)
Who Are the Anabaptists: Amish, Brethren, Hutterites, and Mennonites (Donald B. Kraybill)
Beliefs: Mennonite Faith and Practice (John D. Roth)
"Doctrins of the Bible" by Daniel Kauffman - Herald Press.
Ken Ham COLLECTIONS
Aig COLLECTIONS
SCHROLL PUBLISHING
LIGHTHOUSE CHRISTIAN MINISTRIES PUBLISHING
M&M PUBLISHING
HEROLD PRESS
CHRISTIAN LIGHT PUBLISHING
PATHWAY PUBLISHING
ROD AND STAFF PUMLISHING
LAMP AND LIGHT PUBLISHING

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116298#Comment_116298

A FINAL Word

No, no, no, NO! Fred Don't walk away. I really enjoy your posts and would love to have many of your suggestions for Logos resources.

I have a list of resources I would also like to see that will probably be slow in coming. (Alexander Campbell for one.) They are available in PDF and I wish I could access them in Logos right now. I do understand it is hard to fund the tagging and reworking of a resource into Logos format if the interested users already have access to the work in a limited functionality. This is probably why Barne's Notes is languishing in the Community Pricing (- a PBB version is out there.) With the new high-speed book scanner Logos has purchased, and the mounting experience of the digitizing crew, we will see an accelleration of resource development. Don't lose heart!

As for the sometimes brash or critical responses posted, realize we don't have the benefit of nuance, tonal expression or visual cues to help interpret deeper meaning. We are also dealing with cross-cultural and trans-denominational perspectives. And some of us are just a little flaky at times. I have seen posters flamed for even calling the Lord by the name "Jesus." Some have no sense of humor while others seem to have no sense at all. (btw: Your suggestion list is really funny! [:P] )

So, committing the greatest faux pas, I scream, "NO, NO, NO FRED. Don't walk away!"

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116298#Comment_116298

Fred, Here is a perfect example why you should not quit posting. You may have uncovered a way to import the resources you want into Logos in a faster method than before.

5- Forums consist of "Experts" who appear to know more than you reguardless of your education. (By the way I just created 1- an outstanding indexed Pdf using Open Source - Open Office AND saved a Pdf in A Stand alone indexed HTML using Adobe Pro.)

Thomas Black has written an OpenOffice.file conversion utility that should import into Libronix Sermon Files. If reverse conversion of PDF to OpenOffice format works and the output can be ported into the Sermon File Index then we just may be able to take all your favorites (and mine) and at least run them in Version 3 for the time being When version 4 finally gets the capability to import the Sermon Files, we would have those resources available. Now I can't say for sure the Sermon File feature will be added to L4 before the PBB feature but I'd think so. Several of my wishlist titles are in the PBB format. So I'd first work on importing those that aren't. It may be a wild, unworkable dream or it just might work.

That's why you need to hang around and offer your input!

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116333#Comment_116333

I hope you don't mind me posting my tuppence worth (2 cents to you ex-colonials [;)]).

In this thread I have seen some splendid suggestions made as to resources and utilities of which I had never dreamed, let alone considered. I would love to see those followed up and developed. I have learned of theological understandings which while different from mine are worthy of respect and prayerful consideration. I would like to see Logos publish from every Christian tradition but it can't happen overnight, even when we want it. Please, Fred, don't leave if only for my sake. I have learned so much from your posts about computing, about faith, about books I didn't know exist. I know I come from a small country with a deeply Presbyterian tradition which is evaporating before our eyes, as secular materialism stalks the land. The only bulwark to this is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Kingdom of God and a return to biblical living. There is much that the Mennonite tradition can teach us in this respect; and for this I, for one, would like to see these resources produced.

There is much that we can all to to develop more aspects of the fruit of the Spirit – patience, kindness, self-control. But I have seen grace, gentleness and genuine love in many posts. I have asked many daft questions, made inane, unhelpful suggestions and received humour, sage advice, true wisdom and genuine love (even in print). I am learning so much in these forums, as I have learned in this thread.

Logos functions, even if that were not the company's intention, as a melting-pot where we can express ourselves and our convictions, dream our dreams and spark off each other, as iron sharpens iron. In this multi-national, multi-denominational, multi-cultural setting. Things are going to be said which others react to differently than what we intended. I have learned that gentle, Scottish ironic understatement is lost in crossing continents. I have learned that direct, in-your-face comment is not necessarily intended to have that effect. It's just the way my transatlantic cousins (no, brothers and sisters) speak. C'mon, we're meant to build one another and to seek to outdo each other only in love.

You've got to keep on keeping on!

Every blessing

Alan

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116298#Comment_116298

these site still contain "groupies" which seem to much know it all.

I apologize if I offended you. I assure you that I don't know it all - however, your post did touch an area in which I have a fair amount of experience, experience that I judged worthy of being shared. I join those who hope you do not leave the forums.

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116086#Comment_116086

Open office has an IMPORT PDF Templet which has been out and updating for the past year... It is no longer considered Beta and seems to work fine for my needs. Adobe Pro also will save in Word or HTML.

Blessings Fred

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116084#Comment_116084

I have to admit to being rather disturbed by the comment "yoking their program to Mammon."

I mean, please . . . Logos is a business. It provides a Christian based service to many people, but it's still a business. They haven't taken a vow of poverty to do everything we want - or wish - that they would do.

Personally, I am grateful for the company and have benefited greatly over the 15/16 years that I have been a customer - even though I've had to make monetary purchases and not always have the things that I wanted

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116333#Comment_116333

Blessings

This message alone has forced my return, if only to test this. Thank you so much for the information. Questions do abound?

Where can I find this templet/conversion program? I have searched Open Office and Google?

As you may know. The Pdf Import Templet for Open Office is no longer considered Beta. Though the programer promisses to keep updating and refining it, I have had good results with it. Of course if you can afford Adobe Pro.. The simple save you pdf as an HTML or Word document through the export routine.

If this works I will begin converting my Pdfs to Sermon File. I too have a few over 700 PBB many of which I really miss. I hope Logos new PBB conversion works well with the old PBBs.

Thanks Again for you very useful reply.

In Jesus

Jeff

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116419#Comment_116419

Where can I find this templet/conversion program? I have searched Open Office and Google?

https://sourceforge.net/projects/libronixtools/

This is developed by tcblack (our Thomas Black, Forum MVP and WebMaster of StiilTruth.com

I am going to buckile down and begin my testing of it. Hopefully I will have some amazing results., even if the features are limited for the time being. With OpenOffice's multi-lingual capabilities, who knows what we may discover?

EDIT note: I'm only going to try this with Version 3 Libronix until Logos Version 4 has the added capabitities. I am not presently beta testing so you'll have to ask the beta crowd what features are underway or on the planning board. If you have Version 3 still installed go ahead with converting some PDFs. If they run under V3 they should run in V4 when the feature becomes functional.

Second EDIT: I have not kept up with new developments in OpenOffice over the last couple years. I've been using Adobe CS4 and MS Office 2007. I'm re-installing OO and playing catch-up. So you are way ahead of me Fred (Jeff [:D] )

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116417#Comment_116417

Blessings, Thank you for your words.

I am sorry if you took that comment of Yoke and Mammon to heart. Yes, I too appreciate LOGOS, You see, I am not rich, I make payments and have spent the last three years in the hospital more "in" than "out".... All the time having LOGOS work with me to keep me up to date. They are Christian based. This I know.

Business is business.... have you though been in any Christian Bookstore, or browsed Chistian videos. I understand the Mom and Pop store having to charge more, but these are usually less expensive than the corporate stores. The christian industrial movement, if I may call it that without offense - seems to charge more than your local 7/11. Christ "donations" request by ministries for a pamplet are more than I can tythe to my church. Church building are no longer modest places for meeting but large extravgant motaltihic icons of our generation.

YES, Logos must make a profit.... but I am concerned that perhaps LOGOS may look at profitability of a book over-rides need. This is part of modern business, but a christian business must also allow for the need over profit at times! It is part of the world to expect all businesses to be mindless cooporations, this is not my idea of a Christian Business, even today in this fallen world. As an Anabaptist who use to be part of the world I see it very clearly. In my past life: nne of new cars; television; videos; new cloths; appearence in the community; even appeareance at church; the world was more important than even family needs. I sacraficed family time to further my education in science. I even distroyed a 22 year marriage. It was only by God's Grace that I removed the worldly concerns and focused back on Christ and retrieved my wife and family and started serving the lord instead of the world.

Judgement based on how much you make, where you live and what type of job you have. These all are being Yoked to the world. Nearly all businesses need this dependence to stay in business... It is money (Mammon) that make a business profitable and allows expansion, however we are warned about mammon and the world. This warning is not mine. I did not write it. Even the best intention of a business can become overwhelmed by this. I pray that the LOGOS team actually PRAYS before business meeting and discuss which books will be printed for need instead of profit. I also pray they give to missions and tythe to God. ---- I ask you... What do you think they do? But this question to you is not fair.

Being a bit forceful with words about Gods warnings may be wrong of me. Perhaps I should not do this since my beliefs in following Gods word as close I can is not alway in the rules of some beliefs. I am after all suppose to be humble. I do often allow my foot to approach my mouth. I have even had to remove it on occasion. Maybe this is one. The possiblity that some of LOGOS corporation is Yoked to the world and care more of money than their service to Gods need may be excessive. Certainly it is a statement of something I do not know for sure, so, you are probably right.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear LOGOS

I am sorry for making statements about your company without all the knowledge. I pray that these statement are in fact completely false. I have in the past and will in the future continue to pray for my service providers; Tom Fay & Elise Bryant and of course Bob for his management skills., I do deeply appreciate all you have done for me during my illness. It is my hope that LOGOS is a upright Christain company and will reamin on in the furure. For any of the loyal LOGOS customers I have offended, plese except my apology.

Sincerely

Fred j Morgan - Jeff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116443#Comment_116443

Thank you for your reply. I certainly was not replying in order to attack your position, but merely to express confusion. Your recent note helps to explain where you were coming from.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116443#Comment_116443

Nice post. Well stated.

YES, Logos must make a profit....

I look at this from a different perspective. Many ministries go into debt to accomplish "God's will." Logos has a setup where each title gets a self-supported footing before it goes into production. This is more in tune with Christians of great faith like Hudson Taylor ("God's work done in God's way will never lack God's supplies.") and George Müller http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5683 . I suppose Logos could take some profits from some areas and fund the slower titles they deem of great benefit. I dare say if we knew all of the special support Logos has thrown behind missionaries, publications and seminaries, you would be pleased. But unlike the proud who trumpet for attention before giving, Logos quietly goes about their business. In just a couple decades look what they have accomplished. Just imagine what the next 20 years holds! But it takes time and effort to do this. When I scoop out ice cream for my kids, some have to wait a while to get theirs.
[{] [Z][Z][Z][Z][Z][Z][Z][Z][Z][Z][Z][Z][Z] 13 kids.
You and I appear to be towards the rear of the line. Maybe we can help dish out the ice cream.

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116455#Comment_116455

Thank you for the reply.

I would love to help serve at the rear of the line. This is simular to last Sunday nights sing at church around the camp fire and then waiting for all the children, elderly and women to make their way through the food line for hot dogs and hamburgers..... Most of the men were to tired from the cooking.

I am currently posting some pictures for the next hour at facebook, morganfj under Explorations of Back Roads Album.

Fill free to look

God Bless

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116333#Comment_116333

Here are some instructions on how to import a PDF into Open Office:

http://bit.ly/PDF_2_OO

You can also convert a PDF file to a MS Word DOC file using the details found here:

http://bit.ly/PDF_2_DOC

I did not even know that this could be done till seeing this thread. I do have one question - I know that there are free OCR programs available on-line - can anybody recommend one for converting PDF image files (e.g. as found in Google texts) to text files?

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116519#Comment_116519

Blessings

Open Office people.. simple go to the open office site and download the pdf converter templet..

For those who want a good Office program and don't want to buy Microsoft Office - The experts rate Open Office higher. It's Free.....

Kind-a like Microsoft's Security Essentials - It's free also rates higher than MacAfee, AVG and Nortons is free and never needs to be replaced or pay a yearly fee.... Free Virus Protection

God Bless

Jeff

Ron

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116545#Comment_116545

The experts rate Open Office higher.

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but I'd be curious to know who the "experts" are that rate OpenOffice higher than MS Office? I've never seen any of those reviews. Don't get me wrong...I like OpenOffice and it is great for what it is (a good, full-featured, free office suite)...I even recommend it to people that would like an office suite but can't afford or don't want to pay the relatively high price for MS Office. BUT, Office 2007 and 2010 are head and shoulders above OpenOffice. IMO, the only major thing that OpenOffice has going for it that Microsoft doesn't offer is integrated PDF capability.

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116592#Comment_116592

Blessings

No, I would never take a legetamate question to be taken wrong on purpose. The only wrong quest is the one not asked. In fact I get the same questions from long time Norton, AVG, MacAfee, Trend Micro Users when I tell them that Micosofts Free Security system is better than their store bought yearly updated programs. I myself was on the Beta testing team for MS Security Essentials back when Live One Care was released. I guess that make me an expert on that program. That how I got my free upgrade to Windows Vista Premium... The testing wiped out my XP to the point of no return and the Media Edition DVDs were gone from MS...Lucky Me-Vista Pro. Now if only I could test something and wipe out Vista on my Server...It needs 7.

For the Mid to Average usser - most MS Office users never even touch the potential of MS Office and unless you are a MS Office developer as I use to be, I would be interested in hearing how you believe MS Office Blows away Open Office...Of course in friendly terms.

As for reviews - Open Office does like to Post them as any proud developer would. Try first:

http://www.openoffice.org/product/reviews.html

The following is from Computer World:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/review_of_final_openoffice_3_why_buy_microsoft_office

And we can't forget PC Magizine (Ver 2 review - Ver 3 is even better)

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1848660,00.asp

These are just a quick check on Google. I was a developer for MS Office back when I worked for the State.. MS Office Pro Developers Editions is priced beyond most business. And you know to truly use MS Office on a large scale you need to develope your own apps. The updates alone can knock a business into chapter 7. Not so with Open Source progrograms like Open Office. Most Apps are made and put up for free as Templets or add-in apps, like the Pdf one you mention.... There are hundreds more.. This makes Open Office's higher function available to even the home user where MS Office leaves the home user with simplist Data bases and spreadsheets. NOTHING APPROACHING CUSTOM APPS. Open office can even emulate MS Office for the real die hards.

Anyways, I still have MS Office Student edition on one of my machines to give free training to some locals taking classes at the local junior college. I usually switch them over after the classes are finished.

Of course these are just my opions. In the long run. Which ever system you like best is the one you should use. ... I actually use a 1990 Photo program called Micrgrafx Picture Publisher 10 - Adobe bought out Micrografx in the 1990s to aquire their sub-routines for Adobe Photoshop and to eliminate the compatition. I love this old program and refuse to give it up. And I rate it higher than Adobe... This would make most PhotoShop users laugh out loud at me... But I don't care... It works.

As for experts, they are a dime a dozen. You can always find an opion to fit your cause. So I guess my experts may not be yours...

Anyways... Give it a chance instead of spending a lot of money. At least suggest it to your poorer friends like me. [Y]

As always - God bless

Jeff

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116519#Comment_116519

Blessings Floyd

I wish I could help. I simply use the OCR which came with my Epson 810 ( I finally got ride of my HP's) I have been more than satisfied with this new printer and scanner, The OCR works great. However, as I stated, Unless the Pdf is locked I simly cut and past small text. I am blessed with Adobe Pro for exporting. Also the import templet for Open Office will import most Pdf's into the Word processor for saving into any format includeing plain old ASCII text. Open Offfice is free and the templets will almost install themself using the install manager.

God bless

Jeff

Ron

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116611#Comment_116611

In fact I get the same questions from long time Norton, AVG, MacAfee, Trend Micro Users when I tell them that Micosofts Free Security system is better than their store bought yearly updated programs.

I agree, I've always found AVG and Avast to be far better than most of the commercial alternatives...and I recently discovered and switched to Microsoft Security Essentials.

I would be interested in hearing how you believe MS Office Blows away Open Office...Of course in friendly terms.

Primarily user interface, that is why I specifically specified the 2007 and 2010 editions when saying they were head and shoulders above OpenOffice. The ribbon interface has a bit of a learning curve for people accustomed to the older interface, but nothing terrible. Even novice/average users have no problem picking it up quickly in my experience...and without exception (in my experience), you can't pay people to go back to the old interface once they get used to the ribbon. Features are far more "discoverable" and accessible compared the the menu/toolbar system that OpenOffice still uses. YMMV, but this has been my experience as a full-time IT support contractor.

EDIT - Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but OpenOffice doesn't have anything analogous to either OneNote OR Outlook...either one of those is an absolute deal-breaker for me personally...and for a large majority of the people I've worked with.

Anyways... Give it a chance instead of spending a lot of money. At least suggest it to your poorer friends like me.

No problem there...as noted, I DO like OpenOffice and I do recommend it to people in certain instances (primarily if there needs are very basic and/or if money is an issue.) In fact, I have both my parents on OpenOffice on their computers. It does everything they need and while there is no reason that they can't afford a copy of Home/Student, there is no justifiable reason for them to spend the money on it either in their usage scenarios.

Anyway, thanks for the info. I'm glad you took my questions as intended...I was slightly concerned about offending. [;)]

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116942#Comment_116942

Blessings again

As you may know if you have been to my home page. I became anabaptist about 2000. Since then I have owned a farm and do little in the electronic/compter profession but write progams, web sites, and build various controlers for myself and the farm. I also help with some of the home schools in the area. Mennonite have no problem with education as many of the Amish so making sure the locals are prepared for entrance test is important. Though many students have very well rounded home educations, the state system tends to train student to pass their test. With Florida's new education bill, schools will now grade teachers on how well their students can pass the state test insteade of their actual abilities.

However I regress' I have not purchased MS Office since 2004.

I was entirely caught off guard to learn of the new interfacing. Almost as big of a surprise as Windows 7 new desktop architure.

Thanks for the infortmation. I will have to give the new version a spin, though I suspect I will be back to Oo. I am a creature of old habits as discribed by my Picture Publisher 10.

Thank you again. God Bless

Jeff

May God Bless

Jeff

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116967#Comment_116967

With Florida's new education bill, schools will now grade teachers on how well their students can pass the state test insteade of their actual abilities.

Peace be to you Fred in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Being a certified high school math and science teacher (physical science). I would like some additional information (if you know) about this topic that you mentioned. Obviously, teachers can teach the test which is an absolutely terrible idea. A few years back I really hated the idea of these tests being made. Let me tell you what I think should have happened. Most teachers were professional and could teach the subject. The problem was there was no accountability put on the students. If teachers could actually fail a student to retain them so they could learn the material we would not be in this mess. However, this was not the case. Now....we have teachers that are just not capable of teaching. The standards for teacher qualifications have dropped. Allowing an elementary teacher to not take at least Algebra I or even Algebra II is killing our students. The teachers just don't know where the material is going thus not creating the foundation on which students can build their mathematical houses.

Anyway, I have digressed a bit. Will Florida actually step up and enforce rules and put some accountability back on the parents and students that are in the system? I have basically decided to leave teaching because the same thing is happening across the country. However, rules have been passed that permitted a student to be gone a total of 10 days a year. I regularly had students gone 15+ days in a semester yet I was always told you must "go back" to help those students. This is possible but students need to have drive to work to catch up. Nine out of 10 students that are absent that amount are not driven. The whole educational process dies. When I have 30 plus students, I can not teach thirty plus individuals. The most I have been able to do successfully is 15. By creating packets of materials with copious amounts of examples and worked problems it's possible. This works for some topics but some topics it must be taught.

Truly good teachers will not teach the test. It is a real shame that this is what education has come down to. Just take a case in point, go to almost any fast food joint and try for correct change by figuring out if the person can actually make change without that blasted calculator (register.) Anyway, I probably need to step down from my perch and allow you to give your thoughts.....and anyone else for that matter.

P.S.

I do consider this logos as I regularly used scripture to teach mathematics.

Ron

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116967#Comment_116967

I have not purchased MS Office since 2004.

I was entirely caught off guard to learn of the new interfacing. Almost as big of a surprise as Windows 7 new desktop architure.

Ahh, yes that explains a lot [:D] There have been big, big changes to the interface since 2004.

I will have to give the new version a spin, though I suspect I will be back to Oo.

Perhaps the best way to give it a spin would be via the Office 2010 Beta. I'm assuming it's publicly available, though I don't know for sure since I got it through a TechNet subscription. Anyway, 2010 addresses the few complaints that were present with the change to the 2007 user interface (primarily the fact that there was no obvious analogue to the File menu.)

Fred J. Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/117312#Comment_117312

Blessing to you and your family

As you know, being Mennonite means I try to not live in the World... thus much of the News and Politics are unknow to me... However being a convert means I spent most of my life in school (Career Student) with these concern for myself and my family. I homeschooled two of my three children becasue they tested PHS in grade school and were bored with education. Teachers and councilors ignored checking out why they were doing poorly and stated they were not smart enough. Thus out of Public Education and in the Books at home. During this period the school board remained receiving monies from the state and federal government for my children resulting in the school board sending me papers to sign so they could prove my children were in their district to keep receiving the funds (including lunch funds)... I on the otherhand; footing the complete educaton bills; received nothing except contempt.
This started my involment which has remained... at least in the back of my mind. When I heard of this bill, I decided to get at least a little involved.

You can check out the particulars of SB6 or HB7189 at: http://civicconcern.org/

Education of our children is very emportant. Good teachers like yourself are needed and appreciated.

May God Bless

Jeff - :.....“Why don’t they pass a constitutional amendment prohibiting anybody from learning anything? If it works as well as prohibition did, in five years Americans would be the smartest race of people on Earth.” --- Will Rogers (1879—1935) [:D]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/117312#Comment_117312

I do consider this logos as I regularly used scripture to teach mathematics.

[:D] And I thought I was the King of stretching the topic! [;)] But Logos does have lots of resources that lend themselves well to homeschooling. So many Creation Science materials and The Christian History Library http://www.logos.com/products/details/3525

I would just love to have A Beka Books or Bob Jones University Press distribute their curriculum in Logos format. One of the free Bible software programs includes McGuffey's Readers and a couple Ontario School Readers. I don't see why Logos can't post a few public domain textbooks in Community Pricing now that Barnes' Notes is the only one left. Ray's Arithmetic and a host of history texts come to mind.

I have been homeschooling for 23 years now. My oldest just got her Masters in Nursing from OU and two more have BAs and three more are currently in college. If we had a PBB capability in Logos 4 I have a list a mile long I'd like to see converted. All of it is public domain. If more educational materials were available in Logos, it may be possible to purchase Logos for homeschool use with vouchers like Texas uses. Bad idea ? Maybe.[:(]