community pricing

I just looked for a book in Logos that I have a physical copy of. It's included in a bundle of books that has been in community pricing for almost 4 years. The 'winning' bid right now is $40. I bid $104 and would gladly up my bid to get the books published.

My suggestion is that when a book has been in community pricing for over, say, a year, that Logos add up all the bids and see if there is enough to cover the costs. I am glad to get a low price, but I am quite willing to pay a lot more to see certain books get done. I am sure that a lot of other people feel the same.

PLEASE seriously consider my suggestion.

Thank you

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Comments

Bruce Dunning

My suggestion is that when a book has been in community pricing for over, say, a year, that Logos add up all the bids and see if there is enough to cover the costs.

Larry, I'm not sure I fully understand what you are suggesting. For the sake of clarify, I gather you realize that Faithlife is looking to cover the costs of production through Community Pricing and once it does, the resource will be sent into production at a set price. I think you are suggesting that, at a certain point, Faithlife would add up all the bids of various levels, add them all up, and together all the costs would be covered. Is that correct?

If it is correct, I can see people complain that each person would end up paying a different amount for the same price. So, theoretically someone could pay the lowest price (let's say it is $10) while someone bidding the highest price (let's say it is $150) that both would get the resource for the same price. I can see that people would have a problem with that.

Does what I'm saying make sense to you?

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/928787#Comment_928787

Yes. The idea of community pricing asks us to bid the highest amount we would be willing to pay. Or, in other words I am offering according to how valuable I perceive this product to be to me. The item in question was a bundle of classic commentaries on Matthew. I value commentaries very highly. There is one in particular there that I own, and I would be willing to pay more than the current bid price of $40 to get it.

Like I said, these books have been sitting there for almost 4 years. We need, I think, some way to get these things moving. If a person decides their bid is too high at that time, of course, they could change it. FL would, of course, announce what they were going to do prior to the doing of it.

I suggested also in the past that FL could just tell us how much more is needed in total dollars, and maybe some people would contribute toward it.

There are a lot of really good books that have been sitting there way too long, forgotten.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/928790#Comment_928790

I think I now understand what you are saying. I guess if some people are willing to pay a higher price while others pay less I would be in agreement but I'm not convinced that there would be enough people in that category to make it work. But who know, it may work.

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/928795#Comment_928795

I have a huge physical library, but I really like the ability to copy and paste to my other documents. There are so many really good books that I would like to see Logos do, and a good number of them are languishing in community pricing. I offered two suggestions.

Maybe FL can start a blog that pushes these along. How many people will browse 27 pages of book titles? That's a third suggestion. Many scholars today may not know some of the great names of the past. They need someone to introduce them and make the case for them.

Simon’s Brother

I understand what you are saying but I don't think it would be well received by all bidders. An additional issue is that everyone who bids at say $100 is also automatically registered as having bid at $90, $80, $70 etc and everyone who has bid $90 is also automatically registered as having bid $80, $70 etc. Hence the incremental amount of lower bids may actually add up to a lot less than what it might appear to be if you look at the graph.

Totally understand your frustrations though and would encourage you to keep coming up with suggestions.

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/928969#Comment_928969

I understand that the idea of community pricing is to secure the lowest possible price. That's wonderful. But any book or bundle of books is worth a different amount to every person. I may buy $20 for a book, but I won't pay $50.

CP asks how much you would be willing to pay. If that's more than you are willing to pay, that's fine with me, because I get the books at a price that I am willing to pay for them. Nobody is being asked to pay for more than what they are willing to pay.

There are too many books stuck in CP. The bundle in question has been there for almost 4 years. Many of these are really good books that I would be willing to pay a good price for.

If a book hasn't reached a consensus low price within, say, a year, then it's time to offer the alternative Nobody has to take it, but why wouldn't they? They would not be paying any more than what they said they were willing to pay. If they want to back out, OK. But the alternative might be that the books will never get published.

Let people know the rules before they play the game, and let them know when the time has been reached.

I have offered 3 suggestions so far about CP. Please, can we do something?

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/928973#Comment_928973

I certainly understand your frustrations too Larry. Your suggestions or variations of them could be helpful. You are right that most people won't go through 27 pages of titles. My fear is that there response might be similar to what happened with Pre-pubs as they simply reduced the number.

David Ames

What if there was a price listed that if all that had bid raised their bid to that price the resource would go into production.

Example https://www.logos.com/product/8511/the-catholic-encyclopedia is the fith oldest CP with a bid of $30.

I do not have the Faithlife numbers but extending the graph it looks like if everyone raised their bid to $80 it would ship.

https://www.logos.com/product/15463/the-speakers-commentary Current bid $44 get it now price at $60??

https://www.logos.com/product/28603/1917-code-of-canon-law-collection Current bid $35 get it now price at $110 ??

https://www.logos.com/product/40918/classic-commentaries-and-studies-on-revelation-upgrade Current bid $48 get it now price at $64???

Maybe someone from Faithlife will give us better numbers.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/928973#Comment_928973

Larry's Ideas (if I understand):

Idea 1: Add 'em all up, after a year. Comment: In the long run, people tend to not want to subsidize others, unless they absolutely need the volume. The bids or prices would likely drop over time, my guess. Even if fair warning.

Idea 2: Logos identify breakeven bid at present number of bidders. Comment: Good idea, easy to implement, reduces confusion.

Idea 3: Use a blog to highlight CPs. Comment: Hmmm. There's many, to include prepubs that folks also want. Personally, I like the idea, since both educational and money making. Blogs run maybe $50/hr (includes bennies and editor). Each blog entry about $100-150 each. Profitable? In light of other priorities? User blog as user wiki?

----

To add to Larry, I think using the most frequent bid to 'set the price' in bold text, and searches, is a mistake. It locks in on early bidders, irrespective of instructions. And in a search, a high set-bid means 'skip' to me. Though, I'd bet the weighted average bid is not much different. In any event a start bid too low or high is a killer in the present method.

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/928998#Comment_928998

I wouldn't call it a subsidy. The fact is, every bundle of books is worth different amounts to different people. Some of these bundles I have made the highest bid possible. If the set is not as important to someone else, fine. We are both helping each other get the books.

The bigger issue is that there are books in CP, good books, that have been there for years. I want to see them published. I would think FL would like to see them published. Something has to change in order for this to take place. I gave three ideas. If someone has a better idea, fine. But let's do something.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929000#Comment_929000

You may not see it as a subsidy because you are wanting to get some particular titles into Logos at the moment. Other people would see it as a subsidy. Often I don't think people bid what they are willing to pay but bid what appears to be the most popular price if they have some interest in the title or move on and don't bid at all, or bid a much lower price in the hope it might drop when the title gets close to crossing the line due to a shear increase in interest - and that is one of the big issues, lots of people bid at the end of the process because they don't want to miss out. Other people have a simple formula that revolves around cost per page and if that cost per page goes beyond a certain point they are not interested in bidding.

I can only see having a system where everyone gets charged a different price causing problems and in reality it could lead to community pricing failing as people would be even less willing to bid at higher prices because they don't want to end up paying more than the next person and so the amount of titles crossing the line would fail. I really think you are being to idealistic in thinking everyone bids what they are actually willing to pay.

Community pricing will always struggle also because a proportion of users see these titles as out of date and no value to them. Some people simply don't appreciate we can learn from the past.

Another challenge to community pricing is we see a significant number of these titles end up in base packages and free book of the month type offers so if people are on the fence about whether the resource is of significant value to their library they hold off bidding and are willing to risk the chance th might get it later even cheaper than the community price as part of base package or even free at some point in time.

i just don't see drawing a line in the sand and saying you bid $10 so you can have it for $10 while saying to another customer you bid $100 so you get to pay $100 for the same resource is going to be well received and could lead to either less people bidding or higher bids disappearing.

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929011#Comment_929011

People don’t like to see other people get subsidies when they think the other person should be paying their own way. But in CP people bid what they are willing to pay, depending on how valuable that product is to them. Yes, people may have different strategies in their bidding, but I’m not sure there even is a good strategy.

No, I don’t see a problem with people paying different pricings, since 1) they would only pay a price that they said they were willing to pay, and 2) the alternative is that the books may never get published. We have 27 pages of books that don’t seem to be going anywhere. Logos hasn’t been putting too many books in there lately. Maybe they don’t know what else to put, or it doesn’t seem to be working very well.

Yes, I want to see a lot of these books published, but that seems unlikely for many of them. I made three suggestions to loosen the logjam. If anyone else has better ideas, I am happy with that. You think this one idea won’t work, but nobody knows if we don’t try it.

If we do nothing, nothing will get done. Why not ask the people who have made bids?

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929013#Comment_929013

No, I don’t see a problem with people paying different pricings, since 1) they would only pay a price that they said they were willing to pay,

If I bid $100, but it closed at $40, I'd prefer to pay $40 and save the $60 for something else.

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929017#Comment_929017

If it closed at $40, you would pay the $40. I'm talking about books that haven't closed in years and show no signs of closing any time soon. I'm trying to figure out ways to get these books published. If a book hasn't closed in a very long time, why not allow people to pay the prices they already said they were willing to pay in order to get this thing done? Of course, Logos would announce that they could publish the books if everybody paid their bid amount. If somebody wants to cancel, and maybe after 4 years they might, fine. Nobody is asking anyone to pay more than they already said they were willing to pay.

I was looking for a book that I wanted and found that it had been sitting in CP for almost 4 years with no end in sight. I have made three suggestions already. If somebody has a better one, that's fine with me. But look again at this. It's not as bad as you made it out to be.

Jan Krohn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929020#Comment_929020

Okay. Once a resource reaches that stage, everyone could just bid $1, and would get the book at that price.

People would lower their bid, as they (understandably) wouldn't want to pay more than the vast majority.

That would likely let the book drop below the production line again. But if not, the high bidders would still subsidize the vast majority of $1 bidders. (I know you don't like the word, but a subsidy, by any other name, would still smell as sweet...)

Finally, the high bidders would be annoyed for paying the bill, fill one or two threads with grumbling (best case) or return their purchases (worst case).

I hope it's coming through that I'm not at all convinced of the idea...

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929074#Comment_929074

Nobody knows when they add the bids if they will have enough. If there is a mad rush to reduce bids, that would lessen the chance of the books making it. Do they want the books or not? One of my other suggestions is that Logos would tell us how much more they needed in total dollars to reach the goal, and maybe everybody would up their bids a few bucks to make it. I think you're too cynical. Try it out. The books have been sitting there for years, and nobody else seems to want to do anything about it. The books would still be a bargain, and this would be maybe their last chance to get the books at all.

Justin Gatlin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929076#Comment_929076

Nobody knows when they add the bids if they will have enough. If there is a mad rush to reduce bids, that would lessen the chance of the books making it. Do they want the books or not? One of my other suggestions is that Logos would tell us how much more they needed in total dollars to reach the goal, and maybe everybody would up their bids a few bucks to make it. I think you're too cynical. Try it out. The books have been sitting there for years, and nobody else seems to want to do anything about it. The books would still be a bargain, and this would be maybe their last chance to get the books at all.

If this were ever seriously considered, the temptation would be strong to bid $1 on every resource in CP that you weren't serious about (for the sake of having it and dynamic pricing) and then to bid higher on the rest. It creates some perverse incentives, where you guess a lot about what other people are going to do.
It would be nice if they gave us real numbers: "Producing this book will cost $35000" and we could mouseover the current "1,000 bids at $20 or higher = 20,000." But, I am cynical enough to wonder how true it is that CP bids equal the actual cost to make the resource, and think that specific numbers would lead to a lot of balking.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

One way to increase amount for resources is placing bids using another Faithlife account (your own or a friend's).

If use your own account and resource is produced, then could sell secondary resource later to someone else (possibly missed out on community pricing bidding).

Keep Smiling [:)]

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929020#Comment_929020

No, I don’t see a problem with people paying different pricings, since 1) they would only pay a price that they said they were willing to pay,

If I bid $100, but it closed at $40, I'd prefer to pay $40 and save the $60 for something else.

If it closed at $40, you would pay the $40.

As I understand the OP plan it would close when there were enough bids to pay for the resource.
If the cost would be $10,000 then the bidding would stop when the total of all bid was over the $10,000 mark. Yes, after it reaches that mark many would jump in at $1 and would get bragging rights that they got the book at $1. Many could not afford it and others are just adding numbers to their library count. So what? We will get the book sooner at a price we can 'tolerate'.

Unlike today’s way there would not be a graph showing how each bid price ranks.
There would just be a number showing what percentage was covered.
Perhaps the needed total would be listed and the current total of all bids.

If "PetahChristian" bid $100 that is what "PetahChristian" would pay.
If "Larry Craig" bid $40 that is what "Larry Craig" would pay.
If I bid $1 that is what I would pay.

There would not be a closing price as it is now known.

If this were ever seriously considered, the temptation would be strong to bid $1 on every resource in CP that you weren't serious about (for the sake of having it and dynamic pricing) and then to bid higher on the rest. It creates some perverse incentives, where you guess a lot about what other people are going to do.

Yes, go right ahead and bid $1.
“”Forum Activity: 233,620 users””.
$233,620 should cover the cost of most resources. So please everyone please bid $1 on all CPs.

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929113#Comment_929113

Under my suggestion, when a book has been sitting in CP for too long, all the bids would be added up and if there was enough to go ahead with publishing, it would, and everyone would pay what they bid. The bidding would not continue when this process began, so, no, you couldn't jump in after the counting began to get a book for the lowest bid.

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929113#Comment_929113

Thinking a bit more about what you said.

A lot of books have been sitting in CP for years. I'm not sure they are getting any more bids in most cases. Logos would reserve the right to add up all the bids on any books in CP for longer than a certain period of time. When it does that, it would announce that no more bids would be accepted. This would motivate people to check again on older titles and make bids.

They could bid a $1, though that option usually isn't there, but they run the risk of not getting the books published at all.

I have made three suggestions so far to get these books lost in CP published. If there are better ideas, please make them. I want to see these books out there.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929118#Comment_929118

When it does that, it would announce that no more bids would be accepted. This would motivate people to check again on older titles and .....

... reduce my bid, since I don't really NEED oldies, and sure don't want to PAY for others, that were already lower than me.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/928996#Comment_928996

https://www.logos.com/product/15463/the-speakers-commentary Current bid $44 get it now price at $60??

As an aside this set was one of the primary resources used in the creation of the Easton Bible Dictionary. Which is still widely used on free sites and some Bible software.

-dan

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929120#Comment_929120

By older titles, I mean books that have been in CP for a long time.

Reminds me a little about the parable where the landowner agreed to a denarius for a day's work, and but then he also hired people later in the day, and he ended up paying everyone the same amount. Those who worked the whole day thought they should be paid more, but they had agreed to that amount.

When you bid in CP, you make the bid of how much you would be willing to pay for the books. Now you don't want them, because somebody offered to pay less because the books mean less to them? Do you want the books or not? If you don't, no loss. If you do, I would think you would be happy the books are published. The alternative is that the books probably will never get published. If you don't care, then don't worry about CP. If you do, then, well, maybe you have a better idea. I tried three. I'd be happy for whatever works.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929122#Comment_929122

Frankly, a lot of my purchases are somewhere between meh, and hmmm. Almost none, take it or leave it.

But I think 2 of your ideas are good. More CP info on breakeven. And your blog idea. I periodically post for a CP or prepub, wait a few weeks, and try again. My impression is that a resource attracts its honeybees fairly early. After that, it's iffy.

I don't know if you thought about it, but, for some of the bidders, their price will be higher than the eventual sell price. So, they would have to not be allowed a refund. And not be allowed to back out. Else, Logos would have to start all over.

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929133#Comment_929133

All this is making me think more. When Logos decides a product has been in CP too long, and I think a year is a good cutoff, bidding would end unless a person bid the expected winning bid price. Don't forget, we still don't know if there is enough money there. It still may not make it. Instead of being mad or jealous of those who got in at the end, I should be grateful, otherwise the chances of succeeding would only be smaller. And the likelihood of anyone bidding that amount after all this time would be very small. If there is more than enough money, Logos could, or should, reduce perhaps some of the highest bids. That would be nice. If they just kep the extra money, I wouldn't really care.

Randy Lane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929140#Comment_929140

We're discussing the bidding process, but I am displeased with the Development process.

The 8 volume update to The Works of Whitefield became a qualified pre-pub 11 months ago, 11/18/2016 but has not been scheduled for release yet.

But the 20 volume Classic Studies on the Apostle Peter became a qualified pre-pub on August 4th 2017 (barely over 2 months ago) and is scheduled to ship on 10/30.

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929350#Comment_929350

You're keeping track. I like that. I understand that people from FL are a part of these forums, though they don't always identify themselves as such. Maybe you will get an answer. Something like prayer. Sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929116#Comment_929116

Under my suggestion, when a book has been sitting in CP for too long, all the bids would be added up and if there was enough to go ahead with publishing, it would, and everyone would pay what they bid. The bidding would not continue when this process began, so, no, you couldn't jump in after the counting began to get a book for the lowest bid.

Do you mean this one? https://community.logos.com/forums/p/79393/555540.aspx#555540

Thanks to Mark Barnes I was able to find a post on Everyone bidding in CP. Have you read that post by Bob Pritchett on CP bids??

Larry Craig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/929788#Comment_929788

Thank you. But, as you said, somebody had to find this for you. Many of these are now published. We need to have an undated list.