Search based on speaker and passage list - odd results

I've run into a few problems trying to find a way to get a list of all the times Jesus quotes the OT.

I've got a passage list of all the gospels passages where the OT is quoted (from David Philipps's resource, Old Testament Quotes in the New Testament):

I then did a search of all the verses where Jesus is the speaker:

I then tried to refine this search so that it only looked at my passage list of OT quotes in the gospels:

Two oddities:

a) In image 2, some of Jesus' words are not highlighted, when I think they should be. Any ideas why not?

b) In image 3, it returns verses that are not part of the passage list (image 1), e.g. Matt 5:22 or 10:38-42. Any ideas why?

And a final question:

c) Is there a more efficient way to go about this?

Thanks!

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Graham Criddle

a) In image 2, some of Jesus' words are not highlighted, when I think they should be. Any ideas why not?

Because the words have been supplied in translation and not in the original language which is where the underlying tagging is done. See below for an example

b) In image 3, it returns verses that are not part of the passage list (image 1), e.g. Matt 5:22 or 10:38-42. Any ideas why?

Because the verse where Jesus starts speaking those words is included in the passage list - although I admit it is strange that it does this!

c) Is there a more efficient way to go about this?

Try "{Section <LiteraryTyping = Quotation, Old Testament>} INTERSECTS {Speaker <Person Jesus>}"

John Percival

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/947615#Comment_947615

Thanks for your fantastically helpful reply!

(a) I understand

(b) still seems a bit odd at the least, and to my mind is a bug rather than operating as intended, unless I've misunderstood?

By the way, when I got the email notification for your post, the message did not change the < into < and so it didn't appear quite right in the email. It could be possible to drop some dangerous html into email messages this way, so the behaviour probably should be modified. Is there any way of bringing this to the attention of Faithlife?

John Percival

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/947633#Comment_947633

I just had a look at the results from query (c) and the results are very patchy because the dataset of LiteraryTyping is very inconsistent. For example, the following are not marked as OT quotes:

Matt 10:35-36

Matt 18:16

Matt 19:4-5

Matt 19:18-19

Matt 24:15 (while Matt 24:29 is marked)

Matt 26:31

Matt 26:64

I imagine there are plenty more in the other gospels if I wanted to continue. Why is the tagging so inconsistent? It really doesn't reflect well on Logos as a tool for quality research!

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/947636#Comment_947636

I just had a look at the results from query (c) and the results are very patchy because the dataset of LiteraryTyping is very inconsistent.

Sorry - I forgot it breaks things down into Quotations and Allusions so

({Section <LiteraryTyping = Quotation, Old Testament>} OR {Section <LiteraryTyping = Allusion, Old Testament>}) INTERSECTS {Speaker <Person Jesus>}"

gives a more complete set of results

It still misses Matt 26:64 from your list which I think is an omission.

The "Intertext" dataset is another way of getting at this information and, I think, is more complete

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/947633#Comment_947633

(b) still seems a bit odd at the least, and to my mind is a bug rather than operating as intended, unless I've misunderstood?

It seems like a bug to me as well - I've created a post querying this at https://community.logos.com/forums/t/157103.aspx

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/947633#Comment_947633

By the way, when I got the email notification for your post, the message did not change the < into < and so it didn't appear quite right in the email. It could be possible to drop some dangerous html into email messages this way, so the behaviour probably should be modified. Is there any way of bringing this to the attention of Faithlife?

Sorry I don't understand (but I rarely use the email notification feature)

Can you expand / clarify? What wasn't changed and why were you expecting it to be?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/947648#Comment_947648

The "Intertext" dataset is another way of getting at this information and, I think, is more complete

Concur Intertext finds more => https://ref.ly/logos4/Search?kind=BibleSearch&q=(%7BLabel+Intertext+WHERE+Relationship+~+%22Citation%22%7D+OR+%7BLabel+Intertext+WHERE+Relationship+~+%22Quotation%22%7D+OR+%7BLabel+Intertext+WHERE+Relationship+~+%22Allusion%22%7D+OR+%7BLabel+Intertext+WHERE+Relationship+~+%22Echo%22%7D)+INTERSECTS+(%7BSpeaker+%3CPerson+God%3E%7D+OR+%7BSpeaker+%3CPerson+Jesus%3E%7D+OR+%7BSpeaker+%3CPerson+Holy+Spirit%3E%7D)&match=stem&in=raw:Collection%7CCollectionName%3dCollectionId%253d3ce3b8b4-ecfa-4048-8346-7ae9af45c1d9%257cTitle%253dBible%252520Compare%252520English%7CResourceType%3dtext.monograph.bible&references=bible.61-87

({Label Intertext WHERE Relationship ~ "Citation"} OR {Label Intertext WHERE Relationship ~ "Quotation"} OR {Label Intertext WHERE Relationship ~ "Allusion"} OR {Label Intertext WHERE Relationship ~ "Echo"}) INTERSECTS ({Speaker <Person God>} OR {Speaker <Person Jesus>} OR {Speaker <Person Holy Spirit>})

Caveat: Matthew 26:31 has Intertext Quotation in "The Fayyum Fragment 1, Verso:1–4" (New Testament Apocrypha) and Allusion in Epistle of Barnabas 5.12 (Apostolic Fathers)

Concur Matthew 26:31 is lacking Old Testament Quotation or Allusion for "the Scriptures say ..."

Keep Smiling [:)]

John Percival

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/947648#Comment_947648

Sorry - I forgot it breaks things down into Quotations and Allusions so

({Section <LiteraryTyping = Quotation, Old Testament>} OR {Section <LiteraryTyping = Allusion, Old Testament>}) INTERSECTS {Speaker <Person Jesus>}"

gives a more complete set of results

It still misses Matt 26:64 from your list which I think is an omission.

Yes, that does give more, but the criteria for choosing between Quotation or Allusion are rather odd. Typically, a quote would have an introductory formula or a number of consecutive words' overlap with the source. e.g., I would say Matt 7:23 is more of an allusion than a quote. And Matt 18:16; 19:4-5 are quotes (cf Mark 10:7-8). There unfortunately seems to be too much inconsistency to make this dataset useful as it stands.

John Percival

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/947654#Comment_947654

By the way, when I got the email notification for your post, the message did not change the < into < and so it didn't appear quite right in the email. It could be possible to drop some dangerous html into email messages this way, so the behaviour probably should be modified. Is there any way of bringing this to the attention of Faithlife?

Sorry I don't understand (but I rarely use the email notification feature)

Can you expand / clarify? What wasn't changed and why were you expecting it to be?

Yes in the email instead of seeing <b>hello</b> I see hello (i.e. the text is in bold, because the < > characters are not made 'safe' for html email). This carries certain risks of misuse, plus means that complex search queries that include < > are not displayed correctly in the email.