Church Dogmatics Sale - A little misleading?
Please understand the spirit in which this comment is posted. I am not trying to yell at anyone or whinge however, I was more than a little disappointed with the recent blog post about the savings associated with Karl Barth's Church Dogmatics that are on sale this weekend.
The post states at the beginning that we are able to save almost 32% off of the retail price of the set. Fair enough. However, there is no explanation that the retail price is not the so called sale price (which is the regular price). Therefore I went and checked my sums and thought that I could purchase the set within my budget. I turns out this i snot the case and the 32% is the amount off of the retail price even though the second to last sentance of the blog post which states "This week, two years ago, we released all fourteen volumes of Church Dogmatics for Logos Bible Software. We’re commemorating this anniversary by offering a this-weekend-only discount of almost 32% off of Church Dogmatics (14 Vols.)" fails to mention which price the amount is off!
Here are my points:
Firstly, I think it is wrong to over state the discount without an explanation. Having said this I do not think Logos are trying to be misleading however, I do think it would have been better for us customers to read how we're are saving nearly 20% (or whatever it is) off of the regular price we are able to purchase it for.
Secondly, I think the second to last sentence needs to be adjusted. This is the one I read and based my sums on.
Well, there ends my rant. I love logos and appreciate any special but I admit I really got excited when I read 32% off and I assumed it was that amount off of the price I would normally pay.
Please receive this in the spirit which it is intended and not as an attack. 
Mark Stevens
Peace be with you.
Comments
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Hi Mark
I agree it would be preferable from a user perspective to advertise the offer as a discount that is based on the current Logos price rather than a discount related to a suggested selling price. There have been a number of offers that have been based on the suggested selling price and when any of us check out the offer there is an inevitable disappointment...
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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MarkStevens said:
The post states at the beginning that we are able to save almost 32% off of the retail price of the set. Fair enough. However, there is no explanation that the retail price is not the so called sale price (which is the regular price).
This is common knowledge amongst US consumers. Retail is often short for MSRP (Manufactures Suggested Retail Price) and is the price that percent discounts are subtracted from. I'm not certain that this common practice among US retailers should need to come with an explanation.
Prov. 15:23
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Mark,
this is common. Products are supported by a certain amount of "puffing" to use an industry term. We (americans) know this goes on...and we adjust our thinking accordingly.
Possibly this falls into the same category.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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I agree. I interpret Logos saying "save xx%" as meaning "save xx% of what you would have spent with us if you didn't buy it this weekend" Certainly not unethical, but preferable. I would have preferred "save 20%, that's 32% off the MSRP!"
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Kevin Becker said:MarkStevens said:
The post states at the beginning that we are able to save almost 32% off of the retail price of the set. Fair enough. However, there is no explanation that the retail price is not the so called sale price (which is the regular price).
This is common knowledge amongst US consumers. Retail is often short for MSRP (Manufactures Suggested Retail Price) and is the price that percent discounts are subtracted from. I'm not certain that this common practice among US retailers should need to come with an explanation.
Kevin I find your argument laughable because I live in Australia so I would have NO IDEA of this and Logos is an internationally used product. I appreciate that it might be common practice but to suggest it doesn't need to come with explannation is absurd.
In Australia, and I could be wrong about this, but I am fairly confident this kind of thing is illegal (I am not suggesting Logos are being unethical or illegal in anyway). In Australia you must advertise the savings off of the last quoted regular price.
Kevin, this is not a personal shot at you but I really disagree with your argument![:)]
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MarkStevens said:
because I live in Australia
I live in the UK, and would normally expect a reference to the saving based on current price to be part of an offer.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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MarkStevens said:
Kevin I find your argument laughable because I live in Australia so I would have NO IDEA of this and Logos is an internationally used product. I appreciate that it might be common practice but to suggest it doesn't need to come with explannation is absurd.
In Australia, and I could be wrong about this, but I am fairly confident this kind of thing is illegal (I am not suggesting Logos are being unethical or illegal in anyway). In Australia you must advertise the savings off of the last quoted regular price.
I have to agree with Mark. I was also fooled by the advertisement. The concept is foreign to me in the Bahamas. Logos is an international product, what works for North America, does not necessarily apply to the rest of the world.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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What price was the percents for March Madness taken off of? I would argue for consistency.
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My hat is off to Australia and the UK that they don't use the MSRP as a selling point...
America is very different in this regard.
EDITED TO ADD:
I just looked up a few Aussie web sites selling goods. They ALL referenced the MSRP vs the selling price.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Every Logos product has a "Retail Price" which is normally more than the regular "Logos Sale Price." Every sale that I have seen from Logos (including March Madness) has been a percentage off the Retail Price. The first line of the blog post clearly stated that deal was in relation to the retail price. Logos' marketing people all live and work in the US, isn't it to be expected that Logos' sales would reflect common US practice? Yes, Logos is used by an international base of consumers but it is based in the United States and I dare say that the majority of customers are probably from the US. Why wouldn't they use the form that is common to the majority of their user base?
If I was not from the US and not used to this practice I would probably be disappointed too. I sympathize that it is a foreign idea, but isn't that what should be expected when dealing with a company from a foreign country?
EDIT: If this were a target ad (like an email to .co.uk email addresses) then I would expect it to conform to the common practices of that country.
Prov. 15:23
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Retail pricing misleading? Never hear of it [:O]
Next someone will be saying that retail price structure is just another method to increase sales [;)]
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Kevin Becker said:
If I was not from the US and not used to this practice I would probably be disappointed too. I sympathize that it is a foreign idea, but isn't that what should be expected when dealing with a company from a foreign country?
Hi Kevin
I think that the logic above is fine if the the promotion is not intended to try and attract the attention and additional business of thoise of us who live outside of the US. I think that it is also worth remembering that many of us first saw the 32% offer advertised on our Logos 4 home page, I login to Logos 4 using my personal account which is a .co.uk eMail address so in presenting the blog to me Logos are aware of my location.
Personally I think that the offer on Barth is a good one, 20% off the price I would normally expect is definitely worth having. I think that the trick that Logos is missing by not adopting non US approach they are reducing the impact of the offer to those of us who are not thinking MRSP because the actual price is higher than the one we mentally calculate before entering the coupon code.
Personally I'd like to see the actual price in the blog because that, rather than the level of the discount, determines whether I can afford the offer.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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I agree with OP and I have lived in US all my life. I've been an retail business owner and was a business major in college for a while. "Common Practice" does not mean "Right!" I don't think that the sales figures will change significantly in any way if they post the discount relative to the "regular selling price." I also believe that ethics (particularly, Christian ethics) dictate that one advertise what I'll be saving in relation to what I would have spent (at regular pricing), not some arbitrary number that one (not necessarily Logos) "made up." This just seems like another case of reflecting the "worlds" standards of practice and not a healthy Biblical standard.
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The blog states in the first sentence "Save nearly 32% off the retail price." How much clearer can they say it? If this is a problem for everybody Logos could charge the full retail on Barth's Church Dogmatics until next year's anniverarry sale.
The Logos sale prices do fluctuate. The Works of Cornelius Van Til (40 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/3993 is currently offered for $199. Do not expect to be able to buy it at that price indefinitely. Only the suggested retail prices are static. It is the most reliable standard to give comparrison to. If Logos kept all prices pegged at retail (like Baker Academic titles in Pre-Pub) there would be a lot of unhappy customers. I just wish the Barth coupon did not expire so soon.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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In the UK for an item to be quoted as being discounted from a "certain price", the law states that it must have been offered at that "certain price" in at least one retail outlet in the last six months. Otherwise, under UK law, you cannot make the offer. E.g. Was £10.99 NOW £5.99 is only allowed if it has been offered for sale at that price in the last six months in a least one of the retailer's stores. The same is true for 32% discount! It must have been offered at that 100% price in at least one of the retailer's outlets.
Of course, when I am shopping online in the USA then that rule does not apply, because most – if not all – retailers operate according to their own national laws. But if Logos ever open an office in EU (European Union) then they must obey EU legislation for sales in the EU, as Microsoft discovered to their great financial cost recently. (Now they must offer other browsers and not only IE. And they were fined millions of Euros.)
But please don't assume that people in other countries are aware of what is "common US retail practice", because we aren't. As the Latin tag has it: caveat emptor! Let the buyer beware!
iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8
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I guess I fail to understand why anyone would care that the price comparison even happens.
I like the price = I buy it
I don't = I don't buy it.
simple.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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MarkStevens said:
I admit I really got excited when I read 32% off
In reality, it doesn't matter what percentage off a retailer puts on a product. The bottom line is, is it a good price for me? Can I afford it? I try not to get sucked in by percent off advertising.
On the other hand, I understand your point. But to be consistent, I would recommend Logos stay with the percent off MSRP. At least that is a common ground starting point. It would be kind of difficult to list something for sale as, "32% off the last known sale price (which is the regular price, which is not the MSRP)". It gets too convoluted.
(MSRP is really kind of a joke because items are rarely sold for that price anyway).
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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Roger Feenstra said:
MSRP is really kind of a joke because items are rarely sold for that price anyway
Why base your sales pitch on a discredited system that everyone thinks is a joke? That way lies hard-bitten cynicism. Being up-front about prices and discounts is a win-win for seller and buyer. Seller is offering a genuine discount and potential buyers are not left with a sour taste in their mouth when they realise they can't afford it. They are less likely to come back for more, if they feel misled in past experiences!
iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8
MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8
iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1
iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1
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Michael G. Halpern said:
I agree with OP and I have lived in US all my life. ... "Common Practice" does not mean "Right!"
[Y] +1
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
Alan Macgregor said:
with a sour taste in their mouth
I agree with you. But if this cynicism is not checked at some point we will find the mob demanding Logos not sell resources cheaper than the mob has aquired them for.
Example: Oxford Movement Historical Theology Collection (10 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/2940 Suggested Retail Price $568.45 Sale Price $124.95 How many people are sitting at home with a sour taste in their mouth because they paid more than $125 for this collection. Do they assume Logos should give them a refund or keep the price as high as they purchased it for.
If memory serves me, The Works of Cornelius Van Til http://www.logos.com/products/details/3993 on sale for $199 is usually quite a bit higher. I bought it on Pre-Pub for very little under that. I could rant how Logos misled me by implying I was saving a fortune but now makes it available on sale.
Anybody who bought Word Biblical Commentary for $600 was probably miffed when Logos put it on sale for $400. And anyone reading this who wants to buy it is upset they can't get the sale price today.
The blog could not have been clearer; "save nearly 32% off retail." You can argue all day long if the retail is real or not. Some people actually pay retail price sometimes. There are people who will buy the Baker Academic titles at retail. I'm sorry Logos hasn't learned all the cultural differences in international marketing. I am sure they will learn from this thread but I don't see why a comparison to an established MSRP is wrong. All sales are calculated from the MSRP downward, depending on the discounts. Maybe they should be called "rebates" to comply with UK law..
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Frequently, when I go to a retailer who is offering a percentage off on a pair of shoes, a television, (just about anything you can think of)...it is very often discounted off of the "regularly" or "last" selling price...not the price it was six months/a year ago. There is nothing "common" about using the MSRP/Retail price...business choose which "starting point" they want to use all the time. For me, I want to know what I'm saving off of the price I would pay today if you didn't offer me any additional incentive to make my purchase today ("or for a very short time"). This is just my opinion.
Another thing I notice quite regularly on these forums and frequently from some of the same individuals...There doesn't seem to be much grace and understanding for one another. We are passionate and have many varied opinions, but we are all entitled to them...right or wrong or indifferent. We should "walk a while" in the others' shoes and do our very best to understand their perspective and concede that our thoughts may not be the best either. I hope you are all my brothers and sisters and that we are all serving the same Lord who has told us to be humble and compassionate. I don't often "hear" (see) that sentiment here. Please gently correct me when I blow it too family...thank you...Michael
PS I know it is not always easy to pick up the tone and other nuances when we are communicating through text like this...so I'll extend some additional grace as well. [:)]
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Graham Owen said:
I live in the UK, and would normally expect a reference to the saving based on current price to be part of an offer.
I live in the US ...same state as Logos. I would expect the reference to be against the usual Logos price unless otherwise noted.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Michael G. Halpern said:
For me, I want to know what I'm saving off of the price I would pay today if you didn't offer me any additional incentive to make my purchase today ("or for a very short time").
I believe this to be a reasonable expectation.
Logos does not have to use marketing gimmicks to sell its products (the accountant and the "bottom line" might disagree). the MSRP has become meaningless for most resources. Especially when these resources are made in house (Logos being the "manufacturer" that does not listen to its own suggestions, making one wonder how good these suggestions are ).
In these instance the MSRP only serves to inflate the perceive value of the resource, while the real value is the "sale price" from the perpetual "sale", a concept that only renders the word "sale" devoid of meaning.
I have trained myself to always try to determine the "savings" in relation to the "regular" price, However, I find such marketing gimmicks disappointing to say the least.
As some have mentioned, it is not because something is common that it is right
Alain
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I must confess as one who lives in the UK i found this Sale pricing structure a bit confusing initially. It took awhile to get use to it. I just need to remind myself that our American friends do things differently. Other posters have mentioned EU law and practises, so i need not comment any further.
Michael G. Halpern said:Another thing I notice quite regularly on these forums and frequently from some of the same individuals...There doesn't seem to be much grace and understanding for one another. We are passionate and have many varied opinions, but we are all entitled to them...right or wrong or indifferent. We should "walk a while" in the others' shoes and do our very best to understand their perspective and concede that our thoughts may not be the best either.
Well said[Y].
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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MJ. Smith said:
I would expect the reference to be against the usual Logos price unless otherwise noted.
And what would be the "usual Logos price" for the Works of Van Til? What if Logos wants to drop the "usual price" of ICC to $900? (I know, I'm dreaming, but work with me here. [:P]) Will everybody who paid more be entitled to a refund or at least a little whining? Should US buyers get a discount when the US$ loses value and residents of the EEC get favorable buying power?
I dunno, Maybe Logos can market sales items differently. But there was no error in the written claim of the blog. The error, if any, was in counting on everyone to understand the literal meaning. Why would Logos put something on sale to anger users? Now that Logos is the only place to get L4 resources, we should be thankful they have sales at all.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
But there was no error in the written claim of the blog.
The claim as written may not have had an error but it was clearly open to misinterpretation and misunderstanding.
Matthew C Jones said:Will everybody who paid more be entitled to a refund or at least a little whining?
I see this as a completely separate line of thought the initial discussion was about the perceived accuracy of a marketing message the point that you raise is about the perceived fairness of a varying sales price.
Matthew C Jones said:Why would Logos put something on sale to anger users?
They wouldn't but from what I know of Bob he'd want to know that they had...
Matthew C Jones said:Now that Logos is the only place to get L4 resources, we should be thankful they have sales at all.
Now this is a frightening thought and personally if I thought that Logos intended to create a monopoly to exploit the existing customer base I would be very worried as I have far too much money invested in the platform to consider moving to a competitor.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Matthew C Jones said:
Will everybody who paid more be entitled to a refund or at least a little whining?
I'm guess'n that everyone who paid the $700 should expect their refund soon or start some whining, because it's less than that now! For the vast majority of resources I've purchased (in the mid thousands of $$$, with another mid thousand or so in prepub), I've not seen any price fluctuation after the product has gone "live," so this seems like more of an anomaly than a commonality. I think the point is: 1) most of us accept that Logos uses the MSRP/retail price or we wouldn't be the loyal customers that we are; 2) we can certainly debate the issues if we are kind and gentle toward one another; 3) again, common practice" doesn't mean "best" or "right" practice...remember all things are lawful (for me), but not all things are profitable [:)].
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Robert Pavich said:
I guess I fail to understand why anyone would care that the price comparison even happens.
I like the price = I buy it
I don't = I don't buy it.
simple.
Robert, I think as the discussion as evolved that my point has been lost. The parameters of what that price is was, in my opinion, ill-defined. Logos has the right to charge whatever they wish and I have the right to buy at any price I can afford. I was bitterly disappointed when I discovered the savings were not what I first thought leaving me disgruntled.
Well, I guess I'll have to wait for another time or bribe my wife with more chocolate! Our dollar is very strong against the US dollar at the moment so I need to decide if it is worth the risk of buying now for a little more than my budget allows or waiting until it next comes on sale and hoping the dollar stay good
Is there anyone at Logos who can tell me if this is the best discount we will ever see on the CD?
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This entire discussion overlooks the fact that if you call or email someone in Sales, you can often get an even better price than the best price available via coupons or web special deals. I saw the sale on Barth, and it's something I've been wanting for a while anyway, so I contacted Jim-Ray, my sales rep, and asked if he could do even better than that, and he did. I got it for $549.95, instead of $574.95 which would have been the coupon price. Suggested Retail Price: $840. Normal Logos ("Sale") Price: 699.95. So I got it for 21% off Logos's normal price. I consider that pretty nice.
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Thank you for the info Rosie and I am very happy that you got it for such a good price, however, how do international customers call? Once again it seems those of us overseas are disadvantaged. If I do call will the person i speak with know that I can get this price or do I need to speak with your guy? Any help would be appreciated. An email address perhaps for the rep?
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Thanks to everyone who educated me on the different perspectives on sales pitches.
I hadn't a clue.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
But there was no error in the written claim of the blog. The error, if any, was in counting on everyone to understand the literal meaning.
I agree with this Matthew and my point was that the meaning (lost in translation) left me disappointed/frustrated at myself for not understanding and Logos for not making it clear.
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Rosie,
I use Jim-Ray as my sales rep and I always call him before I purchase anything from Logos. I have always been more than satisfied with the service he has given.
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RonaldQuick said:
Rosie,
I use Jim-Ray as my sales rep and I always call him before I purchase anything from Logos. I have always been more than satisfied with the service he has given.
So how do I get in contact with him if I call Logos, do I just ask for him?
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MarkStevens said:RonaldQuick said:
Rosie,
I use Jim-Ray as my sales rep and I always call him before I purchase anything from Logos. I have always been more than satisfied with the service he has given.
So how do I get in contact with him if I call Logos, do I just ask for him?
email works just fine for me, even better than a call. I email jared AT logos DOT com (jared bryant).
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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MarkStevens said:
Thank you for the info Rosie and I am very happy that you got it for such a good price, however, how do international customers call? Once again it seems those of us overseas are disadvantaged. If I do call will the person i speak with know that I can get this price or do I need to speak with your guy? Any help would be appreciated. An email address perhaps for the rep?
Mark, I said call or email. International customers could email. Of course they'd have to wait several more hours for the sales rep to be able respond to the email during working hours, but it's a small price to pay for the personal service. Any rep should be able to give you the same deals. I've heard other people recommend their guy highly too. It's just nice, once you connect with one of them, to keep giving the business back to the person who helped you the first time (if you liked their service), since I believe they get a commission on those sales. Jim-Ray has always been very prompt with his replies, and I always contact him by email even though I'm in the same timezone. I once sent one late on a Friday (after their business hours) and when he replied Monday morning around 10am, he actually apologized to me for the delay. I certainly never expected a reply over the weekend, and if you know me, I'm always up very late at night on the forum, so 10am was before I was even awake. Hardly a "delay" in my eyes!
I'm a little hesitant to keep recommending Jim-Ray to everyone because then he'll get busier and won't be able to respond to my requests as quickly... [;)]
But his email address is jhigginson AT logos DOT com.
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Rosie Perera said:
Mark, I said call or email.
Sorry, I had a "man read" [;)]
Might call, our dollar is almost at 93 US cents today!
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Well I rang and got Jared on the phone (Dan you were right) and he offered me the same deal Rosie received (THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING IT ROSIE! [:)]) The call took me 5 minutes and only cost me $2.50. I am continually amazed at how small the world has become. I remember when my parents could only afford to call the UK once every few months and now I can call the US from my study on my Nokia cheaper than using my home phone!
Now I am off to set a reading plan for the CD in a year...perhaps 2!
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MarkStevens said:
Well I rang and got Jared on the phone (Dan you were right) and he offered me the same deal Rosie received (THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING IT ROSIE!
) The call took me 5 minutes and only cost me $2.50. I am continually amazed at how small the world has become. I remember when my parents could only afford to call the UK once every few months and now I can call the US from my study on my Nokia cheaper than using my home phone!Now I am off to set a reading plan for the CD in a year...perhaps 2!
Glad I (and Jared, most of all!) could help you!
Lol, that price just kills me (for the phone call). I was a missionary kid in Germany in the 70's, and transatlantic phone calls seemed to cost a month's salary. Well, maybe 1 or 2 hundred DM!
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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MarkStevens said:
Well I rang and got Jared on the phone (Dan you were right) and he offered me the same deal Rosie received (THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING IT ROSIE!
) The call took me 5 minutes and only cost me $2.50. I am continually amazed at how small the world has become. I remember when my parents could only afford to call the UK once every few months and now I can call the US from my study on my Nokia cheaper than using my home phone!I remember when if you tried to interrupt a parent (or anyone) who was on the phone to ask them a question, they'd sometimes say "Not now, I'm on a LONG DISTANCE call!" -- since taking a few seconds to answer you might raise their phone bill by some huge amount. Now we get free long distance calls on our cell phone plans and pay just pennies per minute for international calls. And talking to someone clear across the planet sounds like like being next door (just a slight delay while the transmission bounces off a satellite). I talk to a friend in New Zealand on the phone or Skype quite regularly, and think nothing of calling my aunt & uncle in Paris. A few weeks ago I had a 4-way Skype call with my brother in Haiti, my parents in one city in the US and my sister and her family in another, and me in Canada. For FREE! Isn't technology amazing?!
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Kevin,
I just have to disagree with you on this one.
The MSRP on other products is charged by the upscale store, and few of us pay it. We go to the discount store and pay the cheaper price. However, some do pay the MSRP.
But with many - not all, but many - of the Logos resources there is only one source. You can only buy it from Logos. For such resources the use of a MSRP above what Logos charges is silly. It only serves to mislead and deceive. I do not think Logos is dishonest - goodness no! I do not think they are intentionally misleading. But the reality is that it is misleading, and I think they should stop it.
I just think they are wrong to do this. We will just have to agree to disagree.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
but many - of the Logos resources there is only one source. You can only buy it from Logos. For such resources the use of a MSRP above what Logos charges is silly.
I understand your point. (Actually makes some sense to me.[sn])
Would you have an objection to Logos comparing their regular "sale prices" to the hard copy edition prices? That would be a fair comparison, I would think.
They do so in the product description of ICC http://www.logos.com/products/details/1906 .
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I've been watching this conversation develop with much interest. As ususal, financial matters prompt passionate opinions. I actually agree some with many of you who think we disagree. Let me be more specific [:)].
The OP wondered if the statement XX% of retail price was misleading. He was disappointed (Mark, glad you got an even better deal!) because the terminology was foreign to him. In appealing to US "common practice" I was trying to say that the percentage off did not qualify as misleading because of the context in which it was offered (including other Logos sales/promotions). The OP misunderstood and was not mislead.
There is a philosophical issue that is seperate in my mind, the use of MSRP. I agree that, in practice, MSRP can be used to inflate costs and create a false perception of getting a good deal when none exists. I hope that Logos doesn't do this. I choose to trust that they don't and when I don't understand the price there is probably omething on the balance sheet I am not privy to.
With that said I think that Logos should use the MSRP system. While Logos may be the only place to get a Logos-compatible issue of Bath's Dogmatics I don't believe that he has been dead long enough for copyright to expire. So, Logos is commited to paying royalties. I would not be surprised if the "retail price" for a still-copyrighted work that may not be easily obtainable in print is double the royalty payment (this is a guess, no-one at Logos has told me). When you walk into a bookstore (in the US at least) most of the books have printed on their covers an MSRP. The whole book buying market centers around how big a discount you can afford to take off that price-point set by the publisher. The copyright holders other publishers have created an eco-system using the MSRP; Logos has to use it for at least a portion of its catalogue (i.e. Zondervan and Baker titles).
I think that a mixed model where some books have an MSRP and other have only "Regular Logos Price" would be confusing, much more so than the confusion that started this thread.
If we still disagree, that's fine, but I hope I've expressed my thinking much more clearly. God Bless.
A disclaimer: These comments of course to not extend to public domain books. I still have no idea how they set those prices; they feel too high to me often, but I don't know the balance sheet.
Prov. 15:23
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Matthew C Jones said:Michael Childs said:
but many - of the Logos resources there is only one source. You can only buy it from Logos. For such resources the use of a MSRP above what Logos charges is silly.
I understand your point. (Actually makes some sense to me.
)Would you have an objection to Logos comparing their regular "sale prices" to the hard copy edition prices? That would be a fair comparison, I would think.
They do so in the product description of ICC http://www.logos.com/products/details/1906 .
No, I would not object to comparing their "sale prices" to hard copy prices. In fact, that would be helpful.
Of course, it really doesn't matter what I object to. Logos is free to do whatever they want. I love Logos as much as any other loyal customer. I am an "evangelist" for Logos and have convinced numerous friends to buy it.
It is just my personal opinion that it appears misleading to me to have a MSRP listed when the only price anyone can buy the product for is what Logos charges. I am glad they do not follow their own "suggestion" in pricing.
Seems to me that the MSRP is Logos "sale price" and the true "sale price" is whatever you can talk you representative into over the phone. This applies only to products that Logos exclusively sells, of course. However, on products that other partners also sell, Logos is generally the higher price.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Plain and simple: having the exact sale price stated in the blog would help us all know EXACTLY what the sale price was.
I was confused, and turning to the product page did not help me further. I was left with the option to whip out my calculator (click start/programs/accessories/calculator), and I didn't. I moved on. Having the exact sale price printed may have caused me to consider: do i want this resource at this price.
I hope everyone has had fun discussing the relative merits and demerits of the MSRP system and Logos' role in it. I read more of it than I really wanted to. [:#]
Love ya, brothers and sisters.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Michael Childs said:
It is just my personal opinion that it appears misleading to me to have a MSRP listed when the only price anyone can buy the product for is what Logos charges. I am glad they do not follow their own "suggestion" in pricing.
Good point. Me too.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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slightly off topic tip - so short -
Whenever I ring logos from the uk I use Skype
the call costs pennies (cents (euro cents at that)) and it works very well.Tootle pip
Mike
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Dan DeVilder said:
I was left with the option to whip out my calculator (click start/programs/accessories/calculator), and I didn't. I moved on. Having the exact sale price printed may have caused me to consider: do i want this resource at this price.
I realize this is slightly off topic of the conversation, but when I need to whip out a calculator, I use the handy dandy one built right into Google. I always have a web browser window open, and Google is my home page, so it's a cinch to get there (click on the house icon). Just type a calculation into Google and see it work wonders: e.g., 699.99 * 80%
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