I Simply Do Not Understand Anymore

Logos vs. Faithlife vs. Verbum vs. Cloud based?

What happened? Going from $99 to $240 a year for the same thing.

I'm so lost. This is simply bloatware now. Paying for things I simply have no need for.

I have preemptively cancelled my subscription to Faithlife. I can only assume that everyone who works for Faithlife has best intentions, but this has been an absolutely terrible rollout of software that now has more tiers than I can possibly count across way too many platforms.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

What happened?

Thankful thread => Logos Now and Faithlife Connect: The Why explains rationale.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Sean

What happened?

People will come in and try to explain it, but I'd suggest just ignoring it, at least for a while. This place is cloud cuckoo land right now.

Ross Strader

Logos vs. Faithlife vs. Verbum vs. Cloud based?

What happened? Going from $99 to $240 a year for the same thing.

Yes, this sums it up... what the FL employees on the forums jump in and then begin to say is that we actually get more - like Faithlife TV --- are you kidding me??

FL-TV -- Not only do I not want it or care about it... have you seen it? It is embarrassing. What in the heck is the software company leading the industry in Bible Software doing trying to enter the market of Amazon, Netflix, Hulu.... with a "Christian alternative"...

Logos - do what your good at. You are Very Good at Bible Software!

You are not good at TV - you won't be - you don't have enough money to be good at that.

You are not good at Presentation software - Proclaim is a mess - a terrible mess. I'll say it if nobody else will.

Your Mobile ED is fine... there are lots of free/way cheaper options out there that are EQUALLY as good in scholarship and content - Bill Mounce is doing it... he is not the only one. Sure, your production level is higher quality - but not worth the money you charge for it.

I fear you are abandoning the industry you created... where is the Faithlife Podcast? Turns out... podcast is something people actually listen to...

You social media presence is not creative - it is sales... boring and irrelevant.

Your Forum Page looks like a flea market with the 29 categories nobody cares about... seriously - nobody cares.

Your Beta program has become nothing but incremental bug fixes for the past 6months...

For what? To work on Faithlife TV... please tell us you will abandon this. -- No one cares. And here is the deal - if you do get good at TV... then the Bible Study Software is what will pay the price ... to the degree you succeed at TV - I predict the quality, innovation and excellence of the Bible Study Software will suffer.

How about this... Sell Your Bible Study Software to another company... just sell it - let someone who cares about Bible Study Software buy it from you and then you can go compete with Amazon and Netflix and Online Universities and Microsoft Powerpoint... every other industry you are trying to dabble in.

This is a screenshot that highlights the IRRELEVANCE of Faithlife TV -- begun in December of '15 - only 69 posts have been generated in about 30 months...

Paul Strickert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958121#Comment_958121

Do companies ever contract (rather than expand)? Or is that anathema? Just curious.

Dustin Pearson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958121#Comment_958121

Logos vs. Faithlife vs. Verbum vs. Cloud based?

What happened? Going from $99 to $240 a year for the same thing.

Yes, this sums it up... what the FL employees on the forums jump in and then begin to say is that we actually get more - like Faithlife TV --- are you kidding me??

FL-TV -- Not only do I not want it or care about it... have you seen it? It is embarrassing. What in the heck is the software company leading the industry in Bible Software doing trying to enter the market of Amazon, Netflix, Hulu.... with a "Christian alternative"...

Logos - do what your good at. You are Very Good at Bible Software!

You are not good at TV - you won't be - you don't have enough money to be good at that.

You are not good at Presentation software - Proclaim is a mess - a terrible mess. I'll say it if nobody else will.

Your Mobile ED is fine... there are lots of free/way cheaper options out there that are EQUALLY as good in scholarship and content - Bill Mounce is doing it... he is not the only one. Sure, your production level is higher quality - but not worth the money you charge for it.

I fear you are abandoning the industry you created... where is the Faithlife Podcast? Turns out... podcast is something people actually listen to...

You social media presence is not creative - it is sales... boring and irrelevant.

Your Forum Page looks like a flea market with the 29 categories nobody cares about... seriously - nobody cares.

Your Beta program has become nothing but incremental bug fixes for the past 6months...

For what? To work on Faithlife TV... please tell us you will abandon this. -- No one cares. And here is the deal - if you do get good at TV... then the Bible Study Software is what will pay the price ... to the degree you succeed at TV - I predict the quality, innovation and excellence of the Bible Study Software will suffer.

How about this... Sell Your Bible Study Software to another company... just sell it - let someone who cares about Bible Study Software buy it from you and then you can go compete with Amazon and Netflix and Online Universities and Microsoft Powerpoint... every other industry you are trying to dabble in.

This is a screenshot that highlights the IRRELEVANCE of Faithlife TV -- begun in December of '15 - only 69 posts have been generated in about 30 months...

And this is the root of the problem, they have lost there way and it is not that LN wouldn't pay for upgrades and refinement to Logos, it won't also pay for everything else they want to do and isn't generating the revenue it needs. Hence why we are being screwed over and in order to keep our datasets and features we do want we have to pay to support their failed market spaces...

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958122#Comment_958122

Do companies ever contract (rather than expand)?

All the time. Some contract to zero, but I doubt that's what you mean.

A couple of years ago FL cut a whole bunch of employees at once (employment contraction). GE has been shedding businesses left and right (product line contraction). I doubt most companies choose a path to be smaller unless it is to survive.

Dustin Pearson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958133#Comment_958133

I doubt most companies choose a path to be smaller unless it is to survive.

No entirely true...worked for GE for 15 years and was part of a business unit that it spun off and sold. The market at the time for that product line didn't meet their profit goals so they sold it off to focus elsewhere. Wasn't necessarily loosing money, but also wasn't making as much as they wanted. Also seen them sell off a parts just because they didn't want to go that direction.

GE made it share of mistakes and is working through those now, but going smaller is not always just about survival. Sometimes it is just a good business decision and is not only good for the original parent company but the new company can also find greater success...

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958121#Comment_958121

How about this... Sell Your Bible Study Software to another company... just sell it - let someone who cares about Bible Study Software buy it from you and then you can go compete with Amazon and Netflix and Online Universities and Microsoft Powerpoint... every other industry you are trying to dabble in.

Ross, I respect your frankness and share most of your evaluations. If these other endeavors are making FL depend on the Bible study software for support, then that's where the problem lies, not in reduced spending on resources.

FL does care about Bible Study software. I am sure the largest budget and staffing are still in this area. They are improving or adding to the software all the time.

Perhaps the long-ago decisions to give away the core engine and to offer free life-time support need to be reassessed. Perhaps they need at some point to say that the software itself is what they will rent (not the resources). That will make a lot of people unhappy, but I'd rather pay a monthly rental for what I use (the software) than for what I will not use (TV, Mobile Ed, their selection of resources).

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958136#Comment_958136

Sometimes it is just a good business decision

The bottom line is still the bottom line. GE isn't trying to get smaller. It is trying to make more profit and convince investors that its best years are still ahead of it. If it could have made more profit from the divisions it sold it would still own them. They have chosen to get smaller in product line so they can get bigger on the bottom line and improve their annual growth rate. If not, they are sure to lose even more of their investors. So I stand by my statement. GE wants to survive, not get smaller, and is making decisions on that instinct.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958137#Comment_958137

Perhaps the long-ago decisions to give away the core engine and to offer free life-time support need to be reassessed. Perhaps they need at some point to say that the software itself is what they will rent (not the resources). That will make a lot of people unhappy, but I'd rather pay a monthly rental for what I use (the software) than for what I will not use (TV, Mobile Ed, their selection of resources).

Violently agree!

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958133#Comment_958133

I doubt most companies choose a path to be smaller unless it is to survive.

We see plenty of examples of companies breaking up to flourish... Yes occasionally it is to get rid of the weak portion but it happens indeed a larger company (don't remember which one said it was planning on splitting into three in the US). Quite often a company can loose direction when it is being pulled to too many directions. Becoming smaller allows focus on what each is best at. To use a gardening analogy unless you dig some plants up and split the roots or bulbs and replant them you can get no real growth. Apple is a great example great at phones/tablets but well well designed I think innovation wise the success of the mobile market has lead to the Mac being sidelined...not completely ignored but not give the opportunity to be developed to its full potential. I am not arguing that we should have Apple Music, Apple Mobile, and Apple Computer just that under that option better computers might happen.. again the computer section might go under without the the 2 more profitable arms I don't know. Faithlife has made a name as a producer of top quality software... They should well be commended for the study works they have produced under Lexham. But trying to be all things to all Christians does feel like going off not only in a few too many directions but as pointed up in this forum causing the core software to suffer either by pushing things in a direction users are not wanting to go or offering us things we really don't want. It has come to the point I have seen several heavy Logos users announce their are leaving FL products to go to Accordance. I use both and have no intention of leaving FL... however if it moved to a more subscription and or web based service I can say FL would likely never see another penny from me. So far I have been content more or less with what FL offers, however I do understand how those who went the NOW route feel betrayed... that said I understand the move and the need to adjust pricing but I think for a lot of people the pricing was seen at the top of their comfort level. I will happily continue to use my computer/iOS apps only.

-dan

(‾◡◝)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958148#Comment_958148

Perhaps , instead of subscription, they should consider an à la carte offering of feature/data sets? One would only purchase/rent the ones they truly want/need.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958148#Comment_958148

I doubt most companies choose a path to be smaller unless it is to survive.

however I do understand how those who went the NOW route feel betrayed... that said I understand the move and the need to adjust pricing but I think for a lot of people the pricing was seen at the top of their comfort level. I will happily continue to use my computer/iOS apps only.

-dan

Let’s remember the frustrated users are a small segment (Now) and if at a loss, are taking value from other Logosians. When I get the big offers from A-Company and fondly remember the same from Logos, I doubt the market is dead.

Tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958121#Comment_958121

Logos - do what your good at. You are Very Good at Bible Software!

You are not good at TV - you won't be - you don't have enough money to be good at that.

You are not good at Presentation software - Proclaim is a mess - a terrible mess. I'll say it if nobody else will.

Your Mobile ED is fine... there are lots of free/way cheaper options out there that are EQUALLY as good in scholarship and content - Bill Mounce is doing it... he is not the only one. Sure, your production level is higher quality - but not worth the money you charge for it.

[Y]

Logos needs to get back to just selling the software and books.

I don´t need all the fluff, it just adds to the price of a base package with any real added value to me.

What good is a Mobile Ed course that I will never use (it is not like it shows in a topical search) ?

Dan Cleghorn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958121#Comment_958121

Please do not sell the Bible software. Parsons did that years ago and it was a mess until Lifeway picked it up.

Dan Cleghorn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958146#Comment_958146

I agree with Donovan. I have used Logos since 1.6 days. In order to keep Logos Bible Software functioning for years to come, I would not mind an affordable cloud-type service for $100 annually, if desired, while removing the free engine in the future. Free is good and Logos has been more than fair over the years, but perhaps, starting with Logos 8, they could come out and say that in order to survive financially in these hard times, in order to keep the company going so we can keep access to our books for years to come, we are going to start charging (like most other companies do) when newer versions are released.

Whyndell Grizzard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958173#Comment_958173

This situation is one reason I purchased the full feature set, even though i was a LN subscriber. I am now in the place to where if I drop Now/ Connect I still have the features available to me- I OWN THEM, NOT RENT THEM!!!

Its not like being LN has any new tech advantage any longer you just get some old books, which are no big deal, the most valuable feature has been the preview resources, though the pricing has kept out of the buy column.

I see the day coming when they announce L8 there will be a whole lot of unhappy customers- so get ready, meditate on it, burn incense and sit with your legs crossed so you'll be prepared.

Dustin Pearson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958178#Comment_958178

This situation is one reason I purchased the full feature set, even though i was a LN subscriber. I am now in the place to where if I drop Now/ Connect I still have the features available to me- I OWN THEM, NOT RENT THEM!!!

Not entirely true...Lemma In Passage being one example...

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958137#Comment_958137

Perhaps the long-ago decisions to give away the core engine and to offer free life-time support need to be reassessed. Perhaps they need at some point to say that the software itself is what they will rent (not the resources). That will make a lot of people unhappy, but I'd rather pay a monthly rental for what I use (the software) than for what I will not use (TV, Mobile Ed, their selection of resources).

So if tomorrow they said: Faithlife Connect is Free, but you have to pay $19.99/mo to use the software... you'd be happy?

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958182#Comment_958182

So if tomorrow they said: Faithlife Connect is Free, but you have to pay $19.99/mo to use the software... you'd be happy?

I didn't say I'd be happy, but if it was needed, I'd be open to it and prefer that to renting what FL now wants me to rent. Why? Because doing so will produce more income for FL. (I believe that FL's rental income from the software alone would far exceed what they are going to get from the $20-200 a month now, so I'd anticipate the rental cost to be under $20.00. It might be feasible at $10 a month. FL can offer additional rental services so folks don't have to own anything to use the software, but some of us would rent the software alone.)

Whyndell Grizzard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958179#Comment_958179

This situation is one reason I purchased the full feature set, even though i was a LN subscriber. I am now in the place to where if I drop Now/ Connect I still have the features available to me- I OWN THEM, NOT RENT THEM!!!

Not entirely true...Lemma In Passage being one example...

There may be a couple but its not worth $240 a year- they can have them.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958193#Comment_958193

doing so will produce more income for FL.

I don't agree. Although I am not happy with the current change, I don't believe any promises have been broken... and for the most part, no one has been harmed. If users could no longer access their $20,000 library without shelling out $$ a huge promise will have been broken and users will have been harmed. If Amazon started charging $10/mo so that users could read the Kindle books they own, how well do you think that would go over? Furthermore, it would kill their overall market. Who would buy a $10 Vyrso book which required a $10 monthly charge to read?

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958182#Comment_958182

So if tomorrow they said: Faithlife Connect is Free, but you have to pay $19.99/mo to use the software... you'd be happy?

Yes, because there’s far more value in the software, than there is in the extraneous benefits like book or TV rental.

I’d pay that much if I had early access to and owned a new set of features every two years. (My dynamic cost to buy the feature set every two years would probably be $200, so FL gets $280 to put towards software development.)

It I wouldn’t want to be completely locked out if I stopped paying $240/yr to use the software. (If you own a feature set or resources, you should be able to continue to use those features and resources.)

People who don’t want the new features or software version wouldn’t have to pay anything, but wouldn’t get software upgrades, or bug fixes.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958209#Comment_958209

If Amazon started charging $10/mo so that users could read the Kindle books they own, how well do you think that would go over? Furthermore, it would kill their overall market. Who would buy a $10 Vyrso book which required a $10 monthly charge to read?

Amazon has a much larger customer base who are continuing to buy books. They don’t need to charge for software development, because their larger book revenue covers their smaller development costs.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958214#Comment_958214

I’d pay that much if I had early access to and owned a new set of features every two years.

Does FL allow users to place the Full Feature set on an installment plan? If so, how much is it for users who 1) don't have academic pricing but 2) own the feature sets prior to L7?

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958214#Comment_958214

I’d pay that much if I had early access to and owned a new set of features every two years.

Does FL allow users to place the Full Feature set on an installment plan? If so, how much is it for users who 1) don't have academic pricing but 2) own the feature sets prior to L7?

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958251#Comment_958251

Yes, you can put a feature set on an installment plan, but the L7 feature set wasn’t that expensive (since I owned the L6 feature set). Looking at my order history, it only cost $17 (introductory pricing plus LN discount) to get the L7 starter feature set, and $184 to get the extended feature set.

In effect I owned the features and was paying $99 for early access.

So, $200 to buy plus $198 for two years early access comes to $398. So, if it did cost $240/yr to use the software and we got a feature set and early access out of it, that’s only an extra $41/yr.

People are upset about a $140/yr increase but that comes with free courses and books worth far in excess of $140.

I can understand that people are upset at the particular change forced on them, but FL wasn’t making enough money by giving the software away. One way or the other, prices apparently had to go up. We just didn’t get a say in how that would happen.