Incomplete Software Marketing

Sure question has been asked before but, I can’t read all the articles in all the posts.

Why does Logos push/sell software that is so incomplete at the start?

I’m not aware of other companies that do that; of course I don’t use any other major
brand.

Love Libronix/Logos but…

Can someone explain to me what the point is in starting out with new software this way?

thanks kindly

pastor rda

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MJ. Smith

Can someone explain to me what the point is in starting out with new software this way?

We're just other users - we can speculate, we can read between the lines of some of the President's posts, we can tell you what we've heard from others (rumors and gossip), we can tell you our interpretation of contemporary IT methodology. What we can't do (although some my pretend they can) is actually answer your question.[:)]

DominicM

Robert,

Bob/Logos were upfront about it not being complete,

Many companies would not have been so honest, but as I see it Bob was upfront and hid nothing, and I respect them for it.

I walked into L4 with eyes wide open, knowing it would be a while before it would be completed.

That said v4 for me is already surpassing v3, and I am well happy

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122690#Comment_122690

What we can't do (although some my pretend they can) is actually answer your question.

Spot on!

I hope everyone who wants to post to this thread, reads your post first, and (unless they are speaking for Logos with the Logos icon under their name) doesn't post.

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122697#Comment_122697

That said v4 for me is already surpassing v3, and I am well happy

Yes Sir, I will second that thought.

[Y] [Y] [Y]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122698#Comment_122698

I hope everyone who wants to post to this thread, reads your post first, and (unless they are speaking for Logos with the Logos icon under their name) doesn't post.

sorry Alan, I have to disagree on this. Logos HAS STATED why they did what they did in other threads and many here know it.

Logos had two choices.

1.) Wait a year or two until every possible feature was implimented.

2.) Release and give a platform for those who want it, and in the process get some feedback.

Bradley even put a link to a relevant article from wikipedia about it...I can't remember where that article is.

Logos has said the following so many times on these threads it's almost nauseating.....

"....anyone who doesn't want to use L4 in the current state can just not launch the app and wait until all features are present, L4's current state doesn't affect them one iota" (my rough paraphrase)

Now before anyone carpet-bombs me...that's what Bob Pritchett said....I'm just repeating it.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122698#Comment_122698

I hope everyone who wants to post to this thread, reads your post first, and (unless they are speaking for Logos with the Logos icon under their name) doesn't post.

Maybe he was hoping Logos would answer his question...

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122718#Comment_122718

Sorry, I wasn't aware of why they launched when they did. So, if Logos had already answered Robert's question then someone may know which thread to post – in which case I'll be glad to read it. All I can say is that in a couple of private emails between Bob P and me at the end of last year, I raised Robert's question and Bob didn't pick up on it. Just encouraged me to hang on in there – which I'm glad I did. So, if I was speaking from ignorance (nothing new there! [:S]) it was because I wasn't aware that there was a clear answer out there in the forums.

Thanks for putting me right, Robert and Terry.

Every blessing,

Alan

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122729#Comment_122729

The closest thing to official word on this question that I can find was a repost by Todd of Bob Pritchett explaining why they released L4 with ~90% of the feature set of Libronix. It's an interesting read.

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/6959/55615.aspx#55615

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122739#Comment_122739

You know I think I just figured something out re-reading that quote of Bob's from some time ago. They key sentence is this:

Statistics show that almost none of the features mentioned on these forums as "missing" are used by more than 10% of our users. (A different 10% for each feature, of course.)

How many features were originally not in L4 that worked in L3? Hard to tell as that can be defined pretty granularly. But statistically it only takes 7 features used by 10% of the user group to have over half the total users missing a feature they use. Since there are more features than that, it's fair to say a pretty high percentage of the user group missed at least one, if not more, features. It puts a different perspective on why it seems more people than I imagined are not happy with where Logos 4 is right now. I use Logos 4 more now, but I still say there are 5-6 features I really miss.

Just a little statistical thought....[8-|]

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122729#Comment_122729

I was speaking from ignorance (nothing new there! ) it was because I wasn't aware that there was a clear answer out there in the forums.

Alan, that is part of the problem with Logos right now, Bob has said that there are too many posts to keep up with, but the information they choose to release is usually buried in the middle of a 5 page thread some place. So rather than a central place to look, it becomes a treasure hunt (not in a good way). There needs to be a central location for information such as this. Personally, I have given up even trying to keep track, Logos will do what Logos wants to do, and getting twisted about it accomplishes nothing.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122729#Comment_122729

Sorry, I wasn't aware of why they launched when they did.

Alan,

I'm sorry....I thought you knew that. My mistake [:$]

The link from Bradley explaining the "release logic" is here:

Bradley Grainger:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Release_early,_release_often

We don't totally follow this model: there were no releases for about
three years while we developed the initial version. ("Release early,
release often" would have called for public alphas--or nightly
builds--as soon as it compiled and ran.) And I disagree with the
implication that frequently-released software is unpolished and buggy.
But we have a lot of missing
features to implement, and this frequent release schedule not only
shows progress towards accomplishing those goals but definitely provides
us with a lot of great feedback. (Implementing features that take more
than a week, e.g., Sermon File, may be tricky, but we'll figure it out.)

EXCERPT:

Release early, release often (sometimes abbreviated RERO)
is a software development
philosophy that emphasizes the importance of early and frequent
releases in creating a tight feedback loop between developers and
testers or users. Advocates argue that this allows the software
development to progress faster, enables the user to help define what the
software will become, better conforms to the users' requirements for
the software,^[1]
and ultimately results in higher quality software.^[2]
This philosophy was popularized by Eric S. Raymond in his 1997 essay The Cathedral and the Bazaar,
where Raymond stated "Release early. Release often. And listen to your
customers".^[3]
This philosophy was originally applied to the development of the Linux
kernel and other open source software, but has
also been applied to closed source, commercial software development. The
alternative to the release early, release often philosophy is aiming to
provide only polished, bug-free releases.^[4]
Frequent releases can also improve the security of a software product,
since security fixes are quickly pushed to the end user.^[5]
Disadvantages to this release model include the possibility of more
frequent crashes or even data loss, and that end users must update their
software more often.^[6]

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122768#Comment_122768

You know I think I just figured something out re-reading that quote of Bob's from some time ago. They key sentence is this:

Statistics show that almost none of the features mentioned on these forums as "missing" are used by more than 10% of our users. (A different 10% for each feature, of course.)

How many features were originally not in L4 that worked in L3? Hard to tell as that can be defined pretty granularly. But statistically it only takes 7 features used by 10% of the user group to have over half the total users missing a feature they use. Since there are more features than that, it's fair to say a pretty high percentage of the user group missed at least one, if not more, features. It puts a different perspective on why it seems more people than I imagined are not happy with where Logos 4 is right now. I use Logos 4 more now, but I still say there are 5-6 features I really miss.

Just a little statistical thought....

Yep, I was thinking the same thing the first time I read this post. Now that you have over half of yours users upset, how much damage was done by upset users, like me, who told people who were thinking about L4, but told them the truth about L4, and they are using a different program than L4.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122802#Comment_122802

but told them the truth about L4

In your "truth" what did you say about the patient and/or satisfied customers? The truth for a number of users is to use L3 until the features critical for their use are available in L4. There is a set of users for whom this time has already come.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122803#Comment_122803

OK I am on board this time but please do NOT ask me to do this again.

Kolen Cheung

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122835#Comment_122835

I think their strategy is great, proven by the unexpected amount of new customers. I remember that just after Logos4 is launched, there is a blog post saying that they are surprised by the amount of new customers, so that they don't actually have enough people to answer phone calls, etc.

And I am actually one of the new customers. The only disadvantage for us is that the new customer do not get an Libronix 3 actually, unless they ask someone else. (I don't think they can find it out from the website itself). And I did mention the fact that I cannot use the ESV reverse interlinear in full page view, even if I go back to the Libronix 3.

So, the saying that "if you miss a function in Logos4, you can go back to Librnix 3" is actually not true to new users, where the reverse interlinear full page view is a typical example. Other than that, they did a great job.

Matthew C Jones

I’m not aware of other companies that do that; of course I don’t use any other major
brand.

Love Libronix/Logos but…

I understand your question completely. But I just have to chuckle when you say other software companies don't do likewise.

Windows 1.0 (sticky notes).....Windows 2.10.....Windows 3.0...Windows for Workgroups......Windows 3.11......Windows 95......Windows 95 USB......Windows 98......Windows 98SE.......Windows ME......Wndows NT......Windows 2000......Windows XP......Windows Vista............Then they finally got it right with , ta-da! Windows 7.

I am happy they went ahead with releasing it and allowing feedback. This has resulted in a lot of recommendations from users that may not have otherwise been added to the program. The modular design means easier adaptation and fixes are possible. I do have to wonder if eBook readers and mobile devices helped push it out the door early.

Kolen Cheung

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122861#Comment_122861

Windows 1.0 (sticky notes).....Windows 2.10.....Windows 3.0...Windows for Workgroups......Windows 3.11......Windows 95......Windows 95 USB......Windows 98......Windows 98SE.......Windows ME......Wndows NT......Windows 2000......Windows XP......Windows Vista............Then they finally got it right with , ta-da! Windows 7.

Partially agreeing, especially from WIndows XP to Vista to Windows 7. Libronix 3 is like Windows XP and the Logos4a is like the Windows Vista, and hopefully the Logos 4c in two months will be like the Windows 7.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122864#Comment_122864

Libronix 3 is like Windows XP and the Logos4a is like the Windows Vista, and hopefully the Logos 4c in two months will be like the Windows 7.

[:D] Let's hope it comes out soon.

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122739#Comment_122739

The closest thing to official word on this question that I can find was a repost by Todd of Bob Pritchett explaining why they released L4 with ~90% of the feature set of Libronix. It's an interesting read.

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/6959/55615.aspx#55615

Kevin, I just wanted to say Thanks for that post. Not really for that direct posting but that one above it with the smiley face posted by todd. It was a real treat to see it. I never had before. I can just second a few of the responses from Mr. Black and Mr. Miller. That was truely a great smiley!

Praiser

I can't answer for Logos and many of the post above have great links to what Logos reasons were. I can only give you my thoughts and feelings on the launch of Logos4.

Logos4 had been in beta testing for a while before it launched. Logos was upfront about communicating right from the beginning that it was missing some of the features that Libronix had and that it had some new features that Libronix didn't have. It was stated that it had a new interface and was a separate program. That Libronix and Logos 4 could be run at the same time on the same computer. Libronix was not taken from us and replaced with Logos4 unless we decided that was what we wanted to do. I understood that before I purchased my "upgrade."

That said, when they launched Logos4 they offered some great "upgrade" deals and offered two additional packages that included some great resources at some great prices. Every package had some new resources added to it. The resource package upgrades also work with Libronix. Those who loved Libronix and know it inside and out may feel Logos4 is too different and missing some of their most used and comfortable features. But the good news is that all those resources that were offered in the upgrade deals work in Libronix too! So if you decided to stay with Libronix you could get some great deals also.

The new buyers who have never used Libronix and are beginning with Logos4 would not even know anything was "missing" if it weren't for reading these forums.
I personally am glad that Logos didn't hold off on launching Logos4 and offering those terrific launch deals when they did.
It will always and forever be impossible to make every user completely happy. That is a fact of life and business.
As users we can choose to arrest our thoughts and realize that this is some powerful software that has been made available to us (yes, I know it comes with a price attached, and our human nature wants it all and wants it right now, an opportunity to exercise patience presents itself) and that it will only get better, and if Logos4 isn't for some, then Libronix is still there for them and the resources can be used in it. One of the wonderful parts of Logos4 is that so many of our resources are available for us to access on the iPhone and smartphones. That one feature alone was worth the early launch. So even if you don't use Logos4 and decide to stick with Libronix you can still have access to a large part of your library from your smartphone!

Peace.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122802#Comment_122802

users, like me, who told people who were thinking about L4, but told them the truth about L4,

I am sure you told them how you saw it, and it sounds like it was negative. I see L4 in a different way, and people have signed up and loved it. "the truth," here, is really a bit relative. I am not for "whitewashing" problems, but I know from experience that we can harp on what we perceive as negatives and not balance that with all the good, cool, and helpful things. Perhaps telling "the truth" is not telling the whole truth. Or, perhaps the difficulties some experience will not be experienced by others. Perhaps there are features one has not learned to take advantage of that would totally geek out another person and drive them to buy Logos 4.

People tell the "truth" about "church" all the time, and that "truth" keeps others away. But, I would argue, they have missed some grand truth, and have kept others from something great, simply by not grasping--or experiencing--the greater reality.

Logos and Gospel are (thankfully) two different subjects, but the principle of presentation is essentially the same.

Robert D. Adams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122975#Comment_122975

Brothers

Had no idea my remarks/questions would create such …..

Let me re-emphasize that I have used Libronix3 for years and now I use
Logos 4 on my desktop PC; still learning my way into it.
I continue to work in L3 because I can work faster in it, but plan to use L4
more so as time goes by.
I use both for study and sermon preparation.
No problem here.

Now a while back I gave up on windows laptops and switch to a macbook pro.
And yes, mainly to use Logos 4 for mac.

I can truthfully say I’m waiting and eager for L4Mac to catch up…I take my
Laptop with me when I leave home and really would like to have all the features
Working.
Like a child I am overly anxious but will wait.

Let me make known that I consider Logos Bible software a blessing.
I searched for many years for something that would do what I wanted back in the mid
90’s and I believe the Lord led me to discover Logos. Started way back with L2 as
many of you did.

My only feeling is, I wish other pastors had this privilege of knowing about and being
able to use this software.
In our association I think I have known one other young pastor who had this software.
In our area most probably have not had the opportunity to get familiar with it.

Again, I humbly admit to being ignorant about much of the ins/outs of software.
BUT I’M WANTING MY L4 MAC TO CATCH UP!!!
But I’ll wait.

A fellow servant

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/122975#Comment_122975

I know this is going to make some people upset, but I want to make a correction concerning something that keeps being repeated and is not true.

I bought Logos 4 on the first day it was out, and no matter what people are saying and what people think, there was nothing on any of the Logos websites that said some of the features from Libronix 3 were not included in Logos 4! In fact for the first week the sales people did not understand that some parts were missing. It was almost a week after the fact that the first website articles concerning some missing features came out!

Not only was some of the features missing, but some of the actual books that were listed in Platinum that first week were never given to the owners of the Platinum library. And the list of included books were changed after I had bought Platinum Library.

When Logos was approached by me about this, they were more than fair to me and gave me a nice amount of free credit to make up for the missing books. The sales rep was surprized when he found out about the missing books and the missing features, and it was days later before they were told about some missing features in Logos 4.

Now none of these things really bothered me that much because Logos also offered to allow me to return everything for a full money back refund. However, I thought the upgrade was such a great buy that even if Logos 4 was a bust, I came out way ahead on the upgrade!

Now these conditions only lasted about a week before Logos got everything changed around and gave the correct information about missing features and changed the books that came with Platinum.

If we bought Logos 4 after that first week, we should have known that Logos 4 was missing features and that you might have to use Libronis 3 until it was already. Yes it might take longer than expected, but welcome to the world, Logos is trying!

Having said all of that Logos has been great about trying to get a great new product in our hands, but I think they have ran into many more problems then they thought they were going to. But there is no doubt in my mind that we are going to end up with a great product that is going to do everything that Libronix 3 did and more. It also appears that it is going to be a lot easier to use but that it is going to take a more powerful computer.

At first I hated Logos 4, but as more user information came out I ended up loving Logos 4, but after not seeing enough progress with Logos 4, I was frustrated with it because it does not do everything I want it to. So I have switched back to Libronix 3, until more of the features are added back and a few more of the bugs are fixed.

Again this is a win-win thing for me, Libronix 3 is still the same system I loved, but I have about 400 more great books in the system for a silly cheap price! And I can see that Logos 4 is going to be a great program, that is going to be easy to use when completed. I have also seen how much good information has been give to Logos concerning needed improvements and this is going to be great for me in the future.

My problem of being frustrated is gone, and I do not feel bad because I knew after the first week that Logos 4 was missing some features and that I might have to use Libronix 3 for a while, but I would have all those great new resources in it and I do.

My point is, yes Logos 4 has some draw backs and yes Logos has made some mistakes, but I am still coming out ahead if I just use Libronix 3 now and wait for prime time Logos 4.

I do think that it is good for Logos to know how their customers feel and for them to see that the longer it takes to get this product out the more it bothers their customers. We can learn and improve if we know our weaknesses, but if we never know our problem areas we are not very likely to work on improving them.

I also think that those that post and come across like Logos has not made mistakes and can not hear that others are not yet happy with Logos 4, are not helping Logos at all and in fact they are hurting Logos. If Logos 4 is working great for you that is great, I am happy for you, but please hear that is not the case for many of the people out there, including myself. It is not going to do Logos any good for you to try and make these people change their mind, instead it will help build resentment.

It is my feeling that this early release has been very hard on Logos, but it is still my hope that in the end it will be a plus for users, if they can get over the hump, and consider using Libronix 3 until Logos 4 fills your needs!

In Christ,

Jim

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/123050#Comment_123050

If Logos 4 is working great for you that is great, I am happy for you, but please hear that is not the case for many of the people out there, including myself. It is not going to do Logos any good for you to try and make these people change their mind, instead it will help build resentment.

Well balanced post. Thank you. While you are quite correct that those who are satisfied should not downplay the dissatisfaction, it is also true that those who are dissatisfied should not exaggerate the problems. All of us also need to distinguish between the base Libronix 3 and Libronix 3 with add-ins as many of the missing features were not in the base. My personal position is I can gripe about missing base package functions; I must be patient on the add-ins - even when I don't want to be patient.

Kolen Cheung

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/123050#Comment_123050

Not only was some of the features missing, but some of the actual books that were listed in Platinum that first week were never given to the owners of the Platinum library. And the list of included books were changed after I had bought Platinum Library.

Oh, when did you buy it? I don't know there is a change in the list. If so, I should have contacted them.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/123109#Comment_123109

The wrong information was only on the site for about a week, if you bought your Logos 4 after that you would have never seen the wrong list only the right list. If you never discovered the error even if you bought it the first week, you may have never even looked at the list, so you would never know anyway. I would assume it is to late to complain now, I showed them proof of the mistake, once they seen what I was talking about they were very nice and out of the clear blue sky offered me a credit, since I would not be getting some of the books. They were more than fair, they also offered to let me just return the program.

The whole experience gave me more confidence in their desire to be fair with us and take care of problems. I do not think Logos 4 is ready for prime time, but I do believe it will be some day, they do the best they can to make things right.

In Christ,

Jim

Kolen Cheung

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/123132#Comment_123132

Right, even at the moment I don't really know what's in my package (there is still 67 books in my library that I didn't put any rating on it yet).

I still remember on the first one or two months, I keep "discovering" I have such a good book in my Logos library, before I need to buy a new one. This is the "drawback" of having a large library all of a sudden, that it is hard to know exactly what I have...

So, of course I won't know if there is any inconsistency with the original list.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/123045#Comment_123045

In our association I think I have known one other young pastor who had this software.
In our area most probably have not had the opportunity to get familiar with it.

Hi brother, I don't know where you are at, but if you want more folks in your association to get a demonstration of Logos, give me a call. I will find a way to help get the word out brother!

206-390-5455.

Blessings,

Joe

Mike Childs

I have used every release of Microsoft Windows ever released, and it has all been released incomplete and in need of updates.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/123132#Comment_123132

Jim,

I agree with your confidence in Logos' desire to be fair. I have used Logos practically since the beginning and they have always been more than fair. If there is a problem they bend over backwards to fix it.

What is more, the president of the company reads these forums and he listens.

I believe in Logos - the company and the product.

Praiser

Sure question has been asked before but, I can’t read all the articles in all the posts.

Why does Logos push/sell software that is so incomplete at the start?

I’m not aware of other companies that do that; of course I don’t use any other major
brand.

Love Libronix/Logos but…

Can someone explain to me what the point is in starting out with new software this way?

thanks kindly

pastor rda

Link below is from the new Logos Speaks wiki site (thanks to Kevin Becker):

Why Logos 4 was released with missing features OR Why is Logos 4 a completely new design? (Bob Pritchett, CEO)

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/123516#Comment_123516

Link below is from the new Logos Speaks wiki site (thanks to Kevin Becker):

Why Logos 4 was released with missing features OR Why is Logos 4 a completely new design? (Bob Pritchett, CEO)

Thanks for that; I've never seen it before and searching the forums only works if you know what you are looking for. [:)]