A proposal that benefits everyone
Comments
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Rev A W Palmer said:
BAGD and BDAG were both separate purchases, and I would not be pleased to lose the former.
I don't understand what you mean. Currently you cannot purchase BAGD at all, and we are trying to make it so that you can. I'm not sure what you are concerned about losing.
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Bob Pritchett said:Beloved said:
I've put in a call to Bob on this. I hope he chooses to answer here.
I've handed this over to our publisher relations team to see if we can make it happen.
Bob, thank you so much for your willingness to help in this. I know this thread has veered toward a discussion exclusively concerning BAGD, but please do not lose the intention of the initial post and consider instituting some sort of plan for considering all such instances where a newer version of a resource replaces an older one.
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Yes please ...NIV84 for example, but it applies equally to the purchase of older versions of any resource if we own the current version. And thank you VERY much for your help with this.Joseph Turner said:Bob Pritchett said:Beloved said:I've put in a call to Bob on this. I hope he chooses to answer here.
I've handed this over to our publisher relations team to see if we can make it happen.
Bob, thank you so much for your willingness to help in this. I know this thread has veered toward a discussion exclusively concerning BAGD, but please do not lose the intention of the initial post and consider instituting some sort of plan for considering all such instances where a newer version of a resource replaces an older one.
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Reuben Helmuth said:Bob Pritchett said:
I've handed this over to our publisher relations team to see if we can make it happen.
Thanks, Bob! Now if we only knew who some of those individuals might be so that we could keep hounding them accountable. 😉
Actually, I intend to find out who the lead person is to follow the progress on this. I may also ask the general question posed by this thread.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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Joseph Turner said:Rev A W Palmer said:
BAGD and BDAG were both separate purchases, and I would not be pleased to lose the former.
I don't understand what you mean. Currently you cannot purchase BAGD at all, and we are trying to make it so that you can. I'm not sure what you are concerned about losing.
Whatever Rev Palmer means, we know that you can never lose resources that you already possess this includes both mentioned resources.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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I've contacted Justin Marr the lead employee handling publisher relations. I look forward to his return call and I will report the results of our discussion here once I've had a chance to chat with him.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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I wonder how this might work if you don't own the BDAG. Would they just make it available for purchase again or include the BAGD with it
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Mattillo said:
I wonder how this might work if you don't own the BDAG. Would they just make it available for purchase again or include the BAGD with it
This is one of the larger issues I will address upon my discussion with Justin. Thanks for voicing your concern Mattillo.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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I was contacted today by Joe McCune from customer service I reviewed with him the hopes and desires expressed in this thread. He was open to giving a hearing for the approaches to handling editions that have been updated. He emphasized that negotiations were on a case by case basis and the adopting of one approach is not possible.
The NIV84 is not available and this is totally controlled by the publisher and they have no interest in making this resource available for purchase. BAGD is actively in negotiations and the terms are confidential. He heard that there are compelling reasons for making this resource available once again. Once negotiations are completed announcements along the usual channels (Prepub, forums, and emails) will be forthcoming.
It is my opinion that we the consumer can have an effect on the outcomes if we act in concert and actively voice our opinions in the methods available to us (User Voice, the forums, and interactions with staff). I encourage you to be vocal on this thread, it is being monitored. The more input the better the likelihood of a favorable response from FL.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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Thanks Beloved. I would be delighted to be able to purchase BAGD as an addon to my existing BDAG and that it could only be purchased as an add-on. Hopefully the negotiations will progress in a positive manner so that there are three delighed parties - The publisher and Logos propheting from more sales and ourselves for being able to use the book.
A win win win situation.0 -
I wonder if FL could offer to buy the rights to discontinued resources so that they're available for continued sale in the Logos environment. Just a thought.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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Beloved said:
I encourage you to be vocal on this thread
I add my voice to the interest in BAGD in addition to the BDAG I already have. Thank you for your efforts on this.
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Andrew Loney said:
I add my voice to the interest in BAGD in addition to the BDAG I already have.
Thank you, Andrew. If you haven't already I encourage you to vote here:
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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I appreciate all the effort on this issue. As someone fully invested in the Exegetical Summaries as well as a large number of commentary set which reference the BAGD, i'd be very happy if it wasd made available either dynamically priced with the BGAD which i already own, or as a separate purchase.
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Any news on this proposal? I had done the voting in favor of it.
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Is there any new information concerning this?
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Let me add to this thread that originally, resources like BAGD were not included in the mobile app due to rights restrictions and the way their original contracts were written, but now BAGD is included in the mobile app. This would lead me to believe that there has been at least some discussion concerning rights and such.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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For whatever it's worth I just talked with a Logos customer service rep (about another issue), but before hanging up I asked her about the status of BAGD. She told me that nothing will happen this year (I think she said because of licensing) but that if they choose to act on it the earliest would be next year. If so, we would see something in Pre-pub or Community Pricing. She didn't have any more information, but I thought I'd pass this along.
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Bob Pritchett said:Beloved said:
I've put in a call to Bob on this. I hope he chooses to answer here.
I've handed this over to our publisher relations team to see if we can make it happen.
I wanted to bump this as BAGD came up in another thread, and we never heard anything back about this. An update would be great!
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Any update?
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It entirely depends on the publisher. If they withdraw the rights to publish the older version of their work, there’s nothing FL can do about it.
in those cases, the appeal needs to start with the publisher, not FL.
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Verbum Max0 -
David Wanat said:
It entirely depends on the publisher. If they withdraw the rights to publish the older version of their work, there’s nothing FL can do about it.
in those cases, the appeal needs to start with the publisher, not FL.
Understood, and Bob said over two years ago that he would have his people check on it, so I am interested to know what the results were.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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I'm purely speculating, but no news from the team may actually be good news. They may be in active negotiations and therefor unable to openly discuss progress. I think FL gets the point that BAGD is a very desirable resource for its users the way the BDAG Expansion resources flew through CP is and indicator that anything related to this series is a buy and BAGD is even more useful. I'm looking forward to many long awaited resources being put forth in this coming year.Joseph Turner said:David Wanat said:It entirely depends on the publisher. If they withdraw the rights to publish the older version of their work, there’s nothing FL can do about it.
in those cases, the appeal needs to start with the publisher, not FL.
Understood, and Bob said over two years ago that he would have his people check on it, so I am interested to know what the results were.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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It would be great to have some sort of progress update on this.
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Joseph Turner said:
It would be great to have some sort of progress update on this.
I'm sure they'll be quick to tell us if/when they can give us an update.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:Joseph Turner said:
It would be great to have some sort of progress update on this.
I'm sure they'll be quick to tell us if/when they can give us an update.
Yes! Especially since the three year anniversary of this thread just passed a little over a week ago!
How about an update for the anniversary!
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Bob Pritchett said:Beloved said:
I've put in a call to Bob on this. I hope he chooses to answer here.
I've handed this over to our publisher relations team to see if we can make it happen.
I wonder if we could get an update on this?
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Just pull your copy off the shelf and look it up- I'm not willing to pay some exuberant price.
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
Just pull your copy off the shelf and look it up- I'm not willing to pay some exuberant price.
First of all, you have no idea what the price would be, and second, could you not say the same thing about every Logos resource you own?
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Kinda similar to the topic, but what previous Logos sets included the 2nd edition?
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Greg said:
Kinda similar to the topic, but what previous Logos sets included the 2nd edition?
The higher level 2.0 libraries had it.
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We are coming up on the four year anniversary of this thread. Could we get some sort of update on BAGD at least?
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Joseph Turner said:
We are coming up on the four year anniversary of this thread. Could we get some sort of update on BAGD at least?
Joseph, I am sorry to say that we will not be able to offer these older editions for the foreseeable future. This idea has great merit, but it is not possible to achieve it, at least for the time being.
I understand that it is only natural to want more detailed information than this, but we are not able to publically discuss the interactions and negotiations we have with other organizations.
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Joe,
Thanks for the feedback and the work Faithlife has done to try to make this happen. I understand that you are not able to publically discuss specifics as well.
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I'm still hoping this can happen some day.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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It’s not going to happen! Unfortunately it’s a publisher‘s decision, so it’s time to drop it and move on. Lots of broken links, but oh well, can’t have it all!
Personally, I’m moving on! Hey, at least I managed to get the NIV84 right before it was pulled out 👍DAL
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I'm with you and believe it still can happen.Joseph Turner said:I'm still hoping this can happen some day.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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Beloved Amodeo said:
I'm with you and believe it still can happen.Joseph Turner said:I'm still hoping this can happen some day.
I admire your hopes and beliefs, but I can assure you this will never happen!
DAL
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Joseph Turner said:
2. I WOULD NOT want the links that originally went to BAGD to be redirected to BDAG. They are not the same resource, and the original citation was to a specific edition. Things change and it would not be appropriate to simply redirect citations in this manner.
I know that in the original post it was stated that links to BAGD entries forwarding to BDAG entries is not a good solution. I, however, would be fine with this. If it could be an optional settings switch, I would gladly turn it on. For me, the BDAG entry would be better than a hyperlink not working. If it's optional, those who did not want this to happen would not have to enable it.
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R. Mansfield said:Joseph Turner said:
2. I WOULD NOT want the links that originally went to BAGD to be redirected to BDAG. They are not the same resource, and the original citation was to a specific edition. Things change and it would not be appropriate to simply redirect citations in this manner.
I know that in the original post it was stated that links to BAGD entries forwarding to BDAG entries is not a good solution. I, however, would be fine with this. If it could be an optional settings switch, I would gladly turn it on. For me, the BDAG entry would be better than a hyperlink not working. If it's optional, those who did not want this to happen would not have to enable it.
I would think that would be unlikely for two reasons:
1. They would have to make a resource specific toggle option, and I don't see them putting in the effort for just one resource, and doing it for several varsious resources would be a huge undertaking.
2. I would think there would be copyright issues involved. Let's say I wrote a book which cited a specific entry in BADG for "A" word and its definition. Then, when BDAG was released, the entry for that word changed with new research. If Logos allowed for my citation of BAGD to be redirected to BDAG, which is now not what I originally cited, then it would change the meaning of my work.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Joseph Turner said:Virgil Buttram said:
Some publishers have additional reasons for not wanting older editions sold, even if the newer has already been purchased; e.g. NIV1984.
Do you know what those additional reasons might be? I would think the NIV1984 would be a perfect example of a resource which the publisher does not want competing with the newer edition. I don't think I understand your argument.
This is not an argument about the NIV84. It's apples to oranges. More resources in our libraries point to the older resource so it should be sold or update all citations to the new BDAG.
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Joseph Turner said:
If Logos allowed for my citation of BAGD to be redirected to BDAG ...
I can definitely see that problem ... yesterday an author locked on to a lexicon, hook, line, and sinker ... a very specific usage. Any subsequent over-write would pretty much destroy the author's argument. Of course, that degree of dependence is a bit suspicious.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I agree with Mansfield! Is the least that could/should be done.
DAL
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Matt Hamrick said:Joseph Turner said:Virgil Buttram said:
Some publishers have additional reasons for not wanting older editions sold, even if the newer has already been purchased; e.g. NIV1984.
Do you know what those additional reasons might be? I would think the NIV1984 would be a perfect example of a resource which the publisher does not want competing with the newer edition. I don't think I understand your argument.
This is not an argument about the NIV84. It's apples to oranges. More resources in our libraries point to the older resource so it should be sold or update all citations to the new BDAG.
The only way this resource could ever be sold again is if the publisher chose to start reprinting it and selling it again. Other than that, asking for it to be sold again just because it benefits Logos users is a cry on deaf ears.
DAL
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Matt Hamrick said:
More resources in our libraries point to the older resource so it should be sold or update all citations to the new BDAG.
No, I would not recommend updating all citations to the new edition. The authors of those older works who cited BAGD had specific text/location in mind when they cited it. The newer BDAG might have reworked the text in question, and if you change a work to cite the newer text, you're overruling the wishes of the author. Not to mention that it would be a monumental task going through all the citations of BAGD in all the books that Logos carries and searching for where the corresponding text in BDAG was (if it even exists) and updating the citations to point to that. It isn't a good idea, and it isn't going to happen, much as it might make sense to users/readers of books that refer to BAGD.
It's OK to not be able to look up citations on the spot. That's how we always had it before there were digital books, and we were OK with it.
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Rosie Perera said:Matt Hamrick said:
More resources in our libraries point to the older resource so it should be sold or update all citations to the new BDAG.
No, I would not recommend updating all citations to the new edition. The authors of those older works who cited BAGD had specific text/location in mind when they cited it. The newer BDAG might have reworked the text in question, and if you change a work to cite the newer text, you're overruling the wishes of the author. Not to mention that it would be a monumental task going through all the citations of BAGD in all the books that Logos carries and searching for where the corresponding text in BDAG was (if it even exists) and updating the citations to point to that. It isn't a good idea, and it isn't going to happen, much as it might make sense to users/readers of books that refer to BAGD.
It's OK to not be able to look up citations on the spot. That's how we always had it before there were digital books, and we were OK with it.
Sober answer! Case settled! Let’s be realistic and move on 👍😁👌
DAL
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