How many reference books consult to write 1 sermon
Neither my friend nor I are pastors. I explained I read on Logos: commentaries, systematic theologies, monographs, and etc.
He came back, essentially, with the belief that a person should read the pure word of God, so to have nothing between one and God. I then said pastors create sermons using such that I read.
In very general terms, as a pastor, how many books do you consult for each sermon? How long does it take to write the weekly sermon, on average??
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Good question. For much of my corporate executive life, I had to do speeches, for encouraging, explaining, and making more money. I'd use a key points list or slides. But absolutely never written ... eye contact was the key. No eye contact, no impact.
So, I was surprised religious guys wrote sermons. They don't know their subject?? And even more surprised it took them a day to do it. Doing what??
Then, I asked my (preacher) Dad. A day! That surprised me, since he really didn't need to.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise, even if a person wrote a sermon using no references, and so from the heart, from the whispers of the Holy Spirit to a person's soul, it must be edited, as this pureness has been filtered through a mortal human's faculties.
At the very least, editing is consulting yourself to ensure what is written has internal coherence.
I once edited essays for a friend whose English was not her first language. I kept track of the time involved: per 1000 words, 3 edits took 5 hours. Total essay time = her research, her writing, her rewriting, my editing. Perhaps essays are sermons' first cousins, so this data means something to the topic at hand.
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It really depends on what I am teaching and what section of the book I am in. For example, I just finished teaching through Hebrews. I had 3-4 main commentaries I used throughout the book, consulting them at different times depending on issues I ran into with the text.
I am teaching through Ephesians now. I've got 6 commentaries I will use.
Logos 8 - Reformed Baptist Pastor - Student at MBTS - theologynights.com
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I am not a pastor but have pastors as friends. I know some who rarely touch a commentary and others that use several I have known a couple who are of the first ilk who can write a sermon remarkabllay fast. I remember hearing Chuck Swindoll one time state he had 28 commentaries on the Gospel of John and sometimes has consulted with all of them. The Problem with not wanting anything between you and the Bible is a number of times you are trying to reinvent the wheel. Also no one alive has the expertise to know all the historical and linguistic insights. Historically the Jews have always used the scholarship of past teachers to help interpret and understand scriptures as did the Church Fathers. The few times I have delivered a sermon it usually took me 4-6 hours to write and polish it. But I am sure with practice and the resources I have now it may be less.. That said I come from a traction where 15 minutes is the length you want a sermon Not one of the non liturgical ones where 45 minutes or more is the ideal.
-dan
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Depending on the subject I’m teaching sometimes I just use a crossed-reference concordance and let my own ideas spring out. If I’m wrestling with a text or subject that is more difficult, then I consult a few commentaries, monographs and other sermons written on that particular subject. I try to include some original language key words to enlighten my understanding and that of the church.
Everybody is different. I read an article on the Gospel coalition and the author of the article stated that it can take up to 10 to 15 hours to write an expository sermon or more. Personally, I don’t buy that, but I guess it depends on experience too. 4 hours none stop could be good for me and a few minutes to check it at a later time. And the time to practice so I don’t depend on my notes as much. It varies every time.
DAL
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JohnB said:scooter said:
He came back, essentially, with the belief that a person should read the pure word of God, so to have nothing between one and God.
I take it that he reads in Hebrew, Greek etc because that is the nearest that he will get the pure word of God.
No, he just reads the Bible in English. Several years ago, I gave him my paper ''Bible Knowledge Commentary,'' as I had it here in Logos; I have never asked him if he has used it, as that does not seem polite, but I do wonder.
Thank you all for your replies.
So...sometimes more books consulted, sometimes less. And the time frame depends on experience. People in the past are not afraid to consult.
As well, his pastor must have used some reference works to acquire his Christian education. The man has been at this one church some 25ish years; the church is large, with a diverse plethora of ministries, and so I say it is successful.
Reinvent the wheel: Dan mentioned one does not want to. This is the reason I dive unto Logos materials - to get a diversity of opinions. Pastors need the option to do the same, I figure.
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scooter said:
Denise, even if a person wrote a sermon using no references, and so from the heart, from the whispers of the Holy Spirit to a person's soul, it must be edited, as this pureness has been filtered through a mortal human's faculties
Interesting. I've known several priests who preached without having written even notes as a regular practice for weekday sermons. They also were excellent for Sunday sermons when they were called upon as a last minute replacement for the intended preacher. Of course, most of the priests I've known well are Dominicans aka Order of Preachers :-)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:scooter said:
Denise, even if a person wrote a sermon using no references, and so from the heart, from the whispers of the Holy Spirit to a person's soul, it must be edited, as this pureness has been filtered through a mortal human's faculties
Interesting. I've known several priests who preached without having written even notes as a regular practice for weekday sermons. They also were excellent for Sunday sermons when they were called upon as a last minute replacement for the intended preacher. Of course, most of the priests I've known well are Dominicans aka Order of Preachers :-)
Are these expository sermons, MJ?
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scooter said:
In very general terms, as a pastor, how many books do you consult for each sermon?
Besides Bibles (several in English, plus at least one original language Bible - depends on the text), I'll also consult a lexicon from time to time, at least three, and often more commentaries, a Bible background commentary or two, sometimes a quick peak at a study Bible's notes, often a homiletical commentary and/or some sermons I have in Logos. I usually preach expository messages, so sometimes that's enough. Other times a passage will touch on an important or disputed point of theology that I'll also look up. When preaching from narratives, I usually look at some maps as well.
In other words the numbers vary quite a bit. For this week's message (on John 11:45-57), I just counted 10 resources, though I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting some that I looked at earlier in the week.
Here's why I use other resources: I don't believe God speaks only to me. Nor do I believe there aren't any other people on the planet who have some insight on a passage I don't have. God doesn't call us to Himself as atomized individuals, He calls us into community and structures that community in a way that we will need to rely on each other (1Cor. 12, e.g.). IMO, it's pretty arrogant to think no one else has ever looked at the same Scripture I'm looking at in a way that would add to what I can discover on my own. It's also short-changing one of the ways God usually works: through His people. This isn't to say we shouldn't be discerning about what we read, and how much credence we give it. It just means that when I study the Bible, there's no reason to study it alone. I actually do sometimes disagree with the Bible scholars I read, but when I do I do so from a well-considered alternative.
scooter said:How long does it take to write the weekly sermon, on average??
All week. [:)]. Seriously. I'm looking at and thinking about my message all week long. I pull it all together on Saturday. Others I know finish their sermons earlier in the week. I wish that worked for me. I really do. But of all the preachers I know, we all have our own ways of working, studying, and preaching.
That said. Some sermons are easier to write than others. As I'm going through the entire book of John, some passages are a breeze, others are more of a challenge. The hard part, sometimes, is finding a practical application for us in our day. Just repeating facts and giving backgrounds and "what the Greek really says is..." gets pretty dry (and sometimes a bit sloppy). Giving encouragement that God's determination to save His people can't be stopped, even by those trying to stop it (cf. John 11:51-52), is at least for tomorrow, part of the message for us in the passage. At times, teasing that out, putting it into words and giving it "legs" can be a challenge (which is where reading other sermons on the passage can be a help).
I hope this answers your questions in the way you wanted.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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scooter said:
Are these expository sermons, MJ?
Yes to varying degrees depending upon the congregation and the preacher - the purpose of the sermon is seen as to open up the Word of God so that it nourishes the souls of the congregation.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sermon process: (expositional preaching -30-40 minute sermon)
1. I spend time with the text itself. Reading it / segmenting it into its various parts / outlining it (in my head even if not written down). Essentially establishing 'what is it saying' 'how is it saying it'. Use: original language reference books. Original language analysis from handbooks. Focus on the text itself and what it is saying.
2. Build a rough structural breakdown and then further develop it into major parts and subparts - first cut. Consider the universal truths involved in each part of the structure. Begin to word the structure in a clear / concise / appealing way. Use: Sometimes reference various resources that seek to show structure after I complete my own study.
3. Read commentaries from both a technical and applicational persepective. Tweek the outlines - adding learned insights / reconsidering my own conclusions as I look at other's conclusions about the text. Look for useful wording that can communicate truth in a helpful way. Use: 4-6 commentary and related resources.Sometimes more depending on the text.
4. Take it in personally - how does what it say speak to me - how does it apply to me? How might it apply to others? How do the truths of this text specifically apply to the audience I will be speaking to? What are their needs? How can I best present the truth so that they will most easily get it? What is the desired outcome in their lives? Use: Reference other people's sermons (Keller, Piper, MacArthur, etc.) and especially applicational commentaries looking for key points for application.
5. Finalize the outline and build Powerpoint slides at the subpoint level - highlight key words in scripture.
6. Work through the entire sermon multiple times.
At every stage, I might go back and revise and change and start from the top again on some aspect.
The process usually takes parts of 4 days - maybe 8-16 hours total on average.
This doesn't count the time I am just mulling over the text and its application during the day. Nor does it include prayer time.
After 40 years, I can produce a sermon in an hour if needed (and have). However, just because I can doesn't mean I should. I find that I gain new insight and understanding even when I repreach a particular text as I take time to work through and consider the text. I don't ever get it all. When I am impacted anew, others seem to as well. I am always learning - and I think that helps others to do the same.
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scooter said:
He came back, essentially, with the belief that a person should read the pure word of God, so to have nothing between one and God. I then said pastors create sermons using such that I read.
Your friend's belief suggests that:
- He cannot learn anything from anyone.
- God can't work through anyone, he can only work directly.
Both beliefs are obviously wrong. God doesn't just give me the Holy Spirit and the Bible. He also gives me the church.
But in answer to your question, I'll generally use five-fifteen reference books per sermon. That will generally be three to five commentaries, a topical dictionary, a cross-reference tool, a few Bible or Theological dictionaries, a couple of lexicons, and occasionally a systematic theology or two. A particularly knotty passage of Scripture will increase that. A particularly busy week might reduce it.
But together those ten reference book don't come close to outweighing the importance of the Bible. We don't have to choose between the Bible and other books. We can (and should) use other books to help us interpret the Bible, not as an end to themselves.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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As OP: thank you all, people who appreciate good preaching, and pastors alike, for taking the time to write replies. I get a real sense of wisdom here. We are in Christ; the people you consult when you write a sermon are in Christ. A disservice would be done to your listeners if these works were not consulted......Its possible, as well, to produce a sermon faster / use no notes because of vast previous experience with that text or subject, and the large number of sermons one has produced in the past.
Now, to application for me: I read in Logos seven days a week. Procedures listed above are what I need to produce a package of information on a subject of interest.
Thus not a sermon, nor an essay, neither of which I precisely need, but perhaps the phrase ''briefing packet'' is best to describe what I will use the above information to create.
I did say to my friend words to the effect that, if I was a guest in his church, I would then not be able to trust what he says, because he would have consulted books besides the Bible. My friend said I could trust the man, to which I agreed.
All during our discussion. I was thinking of Moo on Romans and Carson on John. I figured that pastor likely would have both.
For those pastors out there, I hope your sermon went well, does go well this weekend. Bless you!!!
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The number of reference sources I use really depends on the text. I try to go to commentaries at the end of my prep process, though I know some who regularly go to favorite commentary first.
I do not normally write out a manuscript, but use the Sermon Editor to create detailed sermon outlines.
Typically it takes me about 10-15 hours of prep for a sermon. As some have said, I can put one together quicker, but that does not mean I should.
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scooter said:
.... A disservice would be done to your listeners if these works were not consulted ...
No intent to argue with you, scooter. Just a different perspective. And you could easily disagree with me:
- Commentaries, etc is mainly a modern approach. One of the frustrations with modern apologists, is the NT writers don't seem to cross-reference each other (I'm sure a disservice?). They don't even bother to barely quote Jesus himself (letter writers). Strangest of all is the next generation, who presumably could quote from the NT. But didn't
-It was not too long ago, a preacher that had to carry or check other preacher materials was young and inexperienced. Still had a ways to go. And even today, our pastor clearly uses commentaries, etc but never gives credit. He can't.
- And I'd argue the so-called bench-warmer problem is a result of a church-system that rewards fancy music and fancy sermons. People think that's evangelism. And it might well be, if people could discuss it minutes later ... they can't. I checked. I doubt it even gets in one ear.
- There's wisdom in Didache .... suspicion of the teachers. When you take ownership of Jesus' commission.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I think there are at least a couple of different issues at play here.
- The first is making sure that you understand the Word of God correctly before you attempt to proclaim it to others. The amount of time necessary here will depend on each individual's background, level of prior preparation, and familiarity with the particular text or topic to be discussed. There is great wisdom in beginning with the Word itself. But once we've analyzed it to the best of our ability, there is also wisdom in checking our understanding against what others have found. We will understand the word better if we use all of the tools that God has provided us. But in terms of any particular sermon, the Lord has blessed the church with many who understand Scripture well enough to stand up and explain it at a moments notice if needed. That's not to say that they couldn't do a better job with some time to prepare, and it's not to say that all of us are blessed with that level of knowledge.
- The second is making sure you've organized your sermon in a way that will clearly convey the message of Scripture to your particular audience in the time available. The amount of time necessary for this will depend on each individual's skill as a communicator and whether you've taught the same material before. The Lord has blessed the church with skilled communicators, and years of experience, who can stand up and craft a well-structured sermon on the fly. Again, they could likely do even better with some time to prepare, and most of us don't have that level of skill.
Personally, I spend a significant amount of time on both pieces. I don't have the same level of skill, experience and prior preparation that many others have. So, it takes me longer. I need to recognize that, accept it, and put in the time necessary for me to be able to give the congregation the Spiritual food it deserves.
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scooter said:JohnB said:scooter said:
He came back, essentially, with the belief that a person should read the pure word of God, so to have nothing between one and God.
I take it that he reads in Hebrew, Greek etc because that is the nearest that he will get the pure word of God.
No, he just reads the Bible in English.
English Bibles are a commentary on original language text that reflects intersection of original meaning & English target audience & translation bias. Some English translations have significant eisegesis ("into" reading of meaning) issues, where biased beliefs appear in English that lacks much of original meaning. Thankful can compare various English Bibles for insight of original meaning range.
Thankful for Faithlife applications and apps having ability to hide uninspired Chapter and Verse numbers.
Thankful for Reverses Interlinear tagging in many English Bibles so can "see" range of Greek verbal expression, including free Basic packages.
Thankful for digital library with wide range of passionately held opinions so can prayerfully consider text plus opinions over many centuries: Truth remains Truth over time.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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scooter said:
He came back, essentially, with the belief that a person should read the pure word of God, so to have nothing between one and God.
Later you indicated that your friend consults English translation(s). He doesn't want reference works, but he allows a translation committee to come between himself and the "pure word of God."
If you understand the historical situation, the culture, and the language as it was to the original readers of the text, then you can forego reference works. Otherwise, you have become a fountain of false interpretation. I live in the Southeast US, so I have seen multitudes of well-meaning church people led astray by pastors and teachers who claimed that they had no need for anyone to teach them. All they needed was a "King James Bible" to understand the truth.
The absolute worst—and most pathetic—form of deception is self-deception.
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Jack Caviness said:
The absolute worst—and most pathetic—form of deception is self-deception.
Jack Caviness said:The absolute worst—and most pathetic—form of deception is self-deception.
My friend is ~ 5-7 years younger than you, and has been a Christian for 40+ years. I thought he would understand that a pastor builds a sermon, given enough time that week, to respect God, His word, and nourish the folks listening.
And this guy may understand the above. Sometimes, he seems to take a debating position [as I see it], to determine what I have to say. This apparent thesis is hard to tell from a heart-felt position he may hold. I discuss the issue from my real position, so I sometimes feel like I am in an alternate universe. But, he's older than I am, so I show some respect.
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Thankful for Faithlife applications and apps having ability to hide uninspired Chapter and Verse numbers.
I agree with you however I have over the years heard numerous preachers talk about them almost like they are a divinely inspired thing. I know lunacy but there are those out there who have codes and systems worked out and if the layout count of the KJV is disturbed their elaborate house of cards falls down. Apologies if any are out there with these feelings I will admit there are at least some happy coincidences but I wouldn't callout divine inspiration any more than shakespeare translating his name into one of the Psalms is inspired.
-dan
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I usually know where I'll be next week, this week. Or have a good idea of it. I'm open to change if something comes through the week. But in general, I start with scripture sunday, read it morning, and night, likewise for any other relevant scripture to the sermon (eg if there are other parallel accounts, or if a subject, person, issue of theology has a couple of major passages that discuss it, etc - those are read twice sunday too.
Monday, I just do my normal weekly devotions in scripture. Tuesday I read all the relevant passages again, and begin reading as widely as I can on any questions that have come up through the two readings. I continue this on weds, and add in any relevant sermons from like minded preachers. I usually have an outline sketched here as well.
Then Thursday I listen to sermons, and read books from positions contrary to mine. Eg if we were in revelation, and I was post mil, or dispensational pre-mil, I might read the a mill (or dispie, or post mil) take on the passage.
Friday morning, I write out a manuscript.
Saturday I revise it back down to as few pages as I can, and sunday morning I highlight key words and phrases to aid my memory.
Now If I'm approaching the end of the series, I'll start reading wider, Often as not, my time spent reading the word for my personal growth each day triggers the next series. But not always.
As to how many books, it takes as many as it takes. I've had weeks where a study bible and the holy spirit spurred my thinking to the point where I was confident in the sermon. But most weeks thats not the case.
Some sermons fall in my lap, and others I wrestle with for weeks before I'm happy with them.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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scooter said:
My friend is ~ 5-7 years younger than you, and has been a Christian for 40+ years.
Some of us antiques can be frustrating in any discussion [:P].
scooter said:Sometimes, he seems to take a debating position [as I see it], to determine what I have to say.
Has your friend pondered the question—"If reading an English translation is all we need to interpret the Bible, why did the Lord gives us teachers?" (Ephesians 4:7-16).
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Jack Caviness said:
Has your friend pondered the question—"If reading an English translation is all we need to interpret the Bible, why did the Lord gives us teachers?" (Ephesians 4:7-16).
[Y]
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Jack Caviness said:scooter said:
He came back, essentially, with the belief that a person should read the pure word of God, so to have nothing between one and God.
Later you indicated that your friend consults English translation(s). He doesn't want reference works, but he allows a translation committee to come between himself and the "pure word of God."
If you understand the historical situation, the culture, and the language as it was to the original readers of the text, then you can forego reference works. Otherwise, you have become a fountain of false interpretation. I live in the Southeast US, so I have seen multitudes of well-meaning church people led astray by pastors and teachers who claimed that they had no need for anyone to teach them. All they needed was a "King James Bible" to understand the truth.
The absolute worst—and most pathetic—form of deception is self-deception.
At a church I pastored I had a group of mostly senior adults that included one wonderfully dedicated church member, who was also very dedicated to reading his bible. I often admired his ability to recognize and retain even the smallest of facts from a verse, passage, or book of the bible. I said something during the study that he said contradicted what the bible says. He was even a little angry about it. When I asked him to show me, he turned his bible toward me and pointed to the Scofield note on the passage we were discussing. I am not sure if that was the first time he had been told that his Scofield notes were not inspired text, or if he just assumed that if Scofield said it it "must" be true.
The text of scripture must be paramount in any sermon or lesson. However, we have to realize that before we can accurately preach a text in an accurate and meaningful way, we must understand what the correct meaning of that text is. There can be only one correct meaning; what the original author intended when he wrote it.
What did the original author say?
What did he mean by what he said?
What did he or other biblical writers say elsewhere about the same event or topic?
How did the original hearers or readers understand what was said?
How does the text apply to our culture?
How does it apply to me?
I feel the need to try and answer each of those questions before I preach or teach. I cannot effectively do that simply reading the 3-5 English translations I use during the my sermon / lesson prep.
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scooter said:
In very general terms, as a pastor, how many books do you consult for each sermon? How long does it take to write the weekly sermon, on average??
To answer this question...
3-5 Bibles in the first stage of reading/rereading and outlining.
2-3 Lexicons or dictionaries for words studies
5+ commentaries (mostly to test the conclusions I've already come up with in the first two phases)
1-2 atlases when appropriate
Logos cross references
So total is about 12-20.
Reasons
1. I'm not a Greek or Hebrew expert
2. I'm not an expert on ancient culture
3. I'm desperately fallible and need the help of the Christian community from today and yesterday to help test my theological conclusions.
4. God is sovereign and can inspire ideas in someone who studied ideas hundreds of years ago knowing I would need that information in 2018, meaning God is bigger than the god that people like your friend worship because they think he's limited by time and geography.
Time taken...
2-15 hours depending on how much I have studied a passage in the past, how long I need to speak (sometimes I'm prepping a short 5 minute devotion and sometimes an hour long Bible study and sometimes I preach a passage I've studied a dozen times or more and sometimes I preach passages I've never preached and only read devotionally.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
In terms of how much study I put into each sermon, that is difficult because I study over multiple weeks for each message. I will say that I typically study 20 hours per week or more for sermon prep - but I might work on parts of two or three sermons during that time. Bringing one to completion for preaching that week.
As for additional resources, it does vary according to the text I am preaching, my previous study on the passage, theological/exegetical issues with the passage, etc. Here would be an "average" for each sermon prepared....
5-7 translations
10-15 commentaries
3-5 Greek & Hebrew language resources - lexicons, dictionaries, etc
4 Study Bibles
2 Bible dictionaries / encyclopedias
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I’m not a pastor but, for my personal Bible study, I think it’s best to work out what I think a passage is saying before turning to resources other than the Bible. But I do realise that I am somewhat blinded by my own background and beliefs, so I think it is also crucial to read things from other perspectives and pray that the Holy Spirit will help me discern what is true.
I really appreciated this post of MJ’s a couple of years ago: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/126722.aspx
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while a single resource something like Feasting on the Word shows four perspectives are likely important in inspiring a good sermon. The set provides for each reading commentarit’s that examines the theological, pastoral, exegetical, and homiletical challenges of the text. Every pastor will be different as we have seen by the above messages but the consensus seem firm... No one is an island, our dependace on the cloud of witnesses both living in the flesh and now only in Spirit strengthens how we we communicate God‘s message.
-dan
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Fredc said:
I said something during the study that he said contradicted what the bible says. He was even a little angry about it. When I asked him to show me, he turned his bible toward me and pointed to the Scofield note on the passage we were discussing. I am not sure if that was the first time he had been told that his Scofield notes were not inspired text, or if he just assumed that if Scofield said it it "must" be true.
Been there, but in my case, it was a very opinionated lady.
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I read an article that has about 70% of pastors take 15-16 hours a week to do a sermon.
Mark Dever tops it out at 32-52 hours per week.
John MacArthur close behind at 32 hours, however, he does it all by hand. It's possible Dever does the same, the article didn't say.
Piper, Keller and few others stated about 15-16 hours per week.
Keller recommends 6-8 for new pastors. There other responsibilities new pastors need to see to.
Philippians 2:3Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
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