What is the best Christian resource on dinosaurs?
Comments
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J. Remington Bowling said:
In fact, it hasn't been until the last few decades with modern scholarship techniques and scientific paradigms that we've been able to make a compelling case that Genesis isn't saying what it appears to be saying.
Do tell.
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Rick Carmickle said:
I understand what you are asking about, however, let me offer an alternative perspective. The question of dinosaurs is a scientific question about paleontology. Because the geological, astronomical, and paleontological evidence is clear and irrefutable, as believers it’s time to except the evidence of science. The universe is 14.3 billion years old, and the earth 4.5 billion years old. And the dinosaurs lived 66 to 250,000,000 years ago. In fact, the T-Rex is closer in time to us than the Stegosaurus. With that, the best resource is a paleontology book on dinosaurs. Unfortunately, Christians don’t write those very often.
I love my Christian brothers who have a different perspective on the timeline of creation. But Answers in Genesis is simply deceiving fellow believers from the truth God has made apparent to those who look. And I like the recommendations of John Walton’s Works.
FWIW I cant disagree with this more. I have seen most of the AIG material videos and have a lot of their scientific books including much discussions of the flood and timelines.. I stand firm in my YEC.
Statements like AiG is simply deceiving fellow believers is insulting and disgusting.
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Travis Walter said:
FWIW I cant disagree with this more. I have seen most of the AIG material videos and have a lot of their scientific books including much discussions of the flood and timelines.. I stand firm in my YEC.
Statements like AiG is simply deceiving fellow believers is insulting and disgusting.
I agree with this statement. AiG might be mistaken, but that does not mean that they deceive on purpose.
(On the other hand, YEC proponents dismissing OEC creationists as unbelievers is just as disgusting.)
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One of the underlying challenges here is that very few people are truly knowledgeable about both the science and biblical studies relevant to these discussions. I'm certainly not. But my experience is, based on what little I do know of both fields, that when scientists try to interpret the Bible they generally come off looking quite foolish - and when theologians and preachers try to interpret the science, they tend to come off looking equally foolish. The entire debate would be well served by a little more humility on both sides.
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Jan Krohn said:Travis Walter said:
FWIW I cant disagree with this more. I have seen most of the AIG material videos and have a lot of their scientific books including much discussions of the flood and timelines.. I stand firm in my YEC.
Statements like AiG is simply deceiving fellow believers is insulting and disgusting.
I agree with this statement. AiG might be mistaken, but that does not mean that they deceive on purpose.
(On the other hand, YEC proponents dismissing OEC creationists as unbelievers is just as disgusting.)
And thats one thing that Ken Ham does not do.. He preaches Jesus above all. And has a lot of scientific backing to his YEC. He never says your are an unbeliever if you dont agree.. (Jan I wasnt saying you said that at all, just wanted to be clear for others)
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David Paul said:
Do tell.
Regarding the case for theistic evolution, see Biologos.
Regarding the case for old earth creationism without theistic evolution, see Hugh Ross.
I do not mean to claim that everyone will find (or should find) the case(s) compelling, only an observation that many (most?) evangelicals now find the case compelling. Walton especially has given people a convenient, respectable way to say that they affirm the Bible while also being able to satisfy the sense of prestige that attaches to embracing contemporary science. (It should be clear from my earlier post that I don't think Walton's position is very coherent.)
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Travis Walter said:
And thats one thing that Ken Ham does not do.. He preaches Jesus above all. And has a lot of scientific backing to his YEC. He never says your are an unbeliever if you dont agree.. (Jan I wasnt saying you said that at all, just wanted to be clear for others)
As someone who's very sympathetic to YEC, I really don't like AiG and I think it is a big contributor to the heat/lack of charity surrounding this issue. Nearly every article from AiG that I've read attempts to frame the stakes as high as possible: if you don't take this interpretation of Genesis then you don't believe the Bible. And I've been reading quite a few of their articles recently as my nephew has to write a paper on the flood and is required to use AiG as one of his sources.
Granted, many theistic evolutionists take a similar line and argue that being a Christian and affirming YEC are incompatible (I can provide links if someone doubts that there are TEs that make such a claim). And I'm often frustrated that the TEs are just as fundy and ill-informed as their opponents.
I think someone like Todd C. Wood does a much better job at presenting an irenic young earth creationism. And he's not afraid to admit he doesn't have an answer when he doesn't have an answer. He's a model of scholarship and humility.
And, btw, here are some of his articles relevant to dinosaurs: http://toddcwood.blogspot.com/search?q=dinosaurs
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This is one of the issues:
J. Remington Bowling said:Travis Walter said:And thats one thing that Ken Ham does not do.. He preaches Jesus above all. And has a lot of scientific backing to his YEC. He never says your are an unbeliever if you dont agree.. (Jan I wasnt saying you said that at all, just wanted to be clear for others)
As someone who's very sympathetic to YEC, I really don't like AiG and I think it is a big contributor to the heat/lack of charity surrounding this issue. Nearly every article from AiG that I've read attempts to frame the stakes as high as possible: if you don't take this interpretation of Genesis then you don't believe the Bible. And I've been reading quite a few of their articles recently as my nephew has to write a paper on the flood and is required to use AiG as one of his sources.
This is another issue:
https://youtu.be/uOPsvOWW9H0?t=28m7s
Now the problem is, that when people actually believe that the only valid Christian position is YEC, especially young Christians, who have been taught this at church for the first 20 years of their lives, and then at college find out that this is scientific nonsense, then they're left with no choice: rejecting YEC would mean rejecting Christianity as a whole.
Unfortunately, many do just that.
J. Remington Bowling said:I think someone like Todd C. Wood does a much better job at presenting an irenic young earth creationism. And he's not afraid to admit he doesn't have an answer when he doesn't have an answer. He's a model of scholarship and humility.
And, btw, here are some of his articles relevant to dinosaurs: http://toddcwood.blogspot.com/search?q=dinosaurs
I also like Leonard Brand.
He takes a very humble approach in presenting YEC, and even if I don't agree with him, reading his books is a great pleasure for me.
https://www.logos.com/products/search?Author=22414%7cBrand%2c+Leonard
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David Paul said:J. Remington Bowling said:
In fact, it hasn't been until the last few decades with modern scholarship techniques and scientific paradigms that we've been able to make a compelling case that Genesis isn't saying what it appears to be saying.
Do tell.
Tell...do.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Francis, I haven't seen many threads hijacked as badly as this one has been. I was very interested in your original post and the resource responses it would bring. Instead it's devolved into some rather nasty attacks and counter-attacks. I wish those wanting to debate would start a new thread.Francis said:I am looking for a scholarly treatment of the question. I am not interested in vague references to Behemoth and Leviathan or endless questioning of datation, allegations of fraud, etc. I am interested in a resource that takes the evidence seriously and deals with it with scholarly rigour in relation to the Christian faith and creationism.
Put differently I am not looking for a book that makes Christians feel good and think they're okay. I am more interested in a resource that would be a compelling case for a critically-minded unbeliever.
Any recommendation (preferably in Logos)?
I want to thank those who have actually responded to your request and would very much like to know if anyone has any more resource suggestions matching your criterion, or at least attempting to approach the subject more from that perspective.
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Rick Ausdahl said:
Francis, I haven't seen many threads hijacked as badly as this one has been. I was very interested in your original post and the resource responses it would bring. Instead it's devolved into some rather nasty attacks and counter-attacks. I wish those wanting to debate would start a new thread.
I want to thank those who have actually responded to your request and would very much like to know if anyone has any more resource suggestions matching your criterion, or at least attempting to approach the subject more from that perspective.
Rick, I understand your point. But a forum is just that. Bob characterizes it as a coffeetable. Conversations swirl ... the originator tries to return to his/her question. It swirls again. People hijack by definition.
In this case the swirling is quite ancient. A segment of the jews early on were embarrassed by the account ... some literally re-wrote it, others turned it into symbolism. In both cases, versus new learning, etc. We're talking pre-Jesus, who apparently was concerned with the future.. And the question gets people wound up. Francis knew that .. even tried to caution.
And I enjoy both the text, and palaeontology. I buy expensive books on the text at $60-90 a clip. I buy $60-90 books on geology and fossils. Bunches. There's just not a lot of common ground between the two, vs being honest with Francis' critically-minded unbeliever. You end up exactly where the jews ended up 2,500 years ago. And the same heated opinions.
So, maybe there is such a book?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I believe in Behemoth, Leviathan and T-Rex 🦖 because I have T-Rex arms 👍😁👌 Plus, God made us!
DAL
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I don't at all mind debate--even spirited debate. But it does bother me when people become disrespectful. Having said that, my point is that I have an interest in following this thread based on the thread topic/title which does clearly correspond to the request in the original post. It's frustrating to keep visiting the thread to read new post after post, only to find they do nothing to address the request of the thread's originator. So I would appreciate it if those interested in debating the topic of dinosaurs could start a new thread.Denise said:Rick Ausdahl said:Francis, I haven't seen many threads hijacked as badly as this one has been. I was very interested in your original post and the resource responses it would bring. Instead it's devolved into some rather nasty attacks and counter-attacks. I wish those wanting to debate would start a new thread.
I want to thank those who have actually responded to your request and would very much like to know if anyone has any more resource suggestions matching your criterion, or at least attempting to approach the subject more from that perspective.
Rick, I understand your point. But a forum is just that. Bob characterizes it as a coffeetable. Conversations swirl ... the originator tries to return to his/her question. It swirls again. People hijack by definition.
In this case the swirling is quite ancient. A segment of the jews early on were embarrassed by the account ... some literally re-wrote it, others turned it into symbolism. In both cases, versus new learning, etc. We're talking pre-Jesus, who apparently was concerned with the future.. And the question gets people wound up. Francis knew that .. even tried to caution.
And I enjoy both the text, and palaeontology. I buy expensive books on the text at $60-90 a clip. I buy $60-90 books on geology and fossils. Bunches. There's just not a lot of common ground between the two, vs being honest with Francis' critically-minded unbeliever. You end up exactly where the jews ended up 2,500 years ago. And the same heated opinions.
So, maybe there is such a book?
That's all I'll say on the matter as I don't want to be guilty of hijacking the thread myself. [:#][:|][:#]
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Skimming this thread for the on-topic stuff, I haven't seen any recommendations of articles in scholarly journals in resources offered by FL. Are there any such that would help meet Francis's needs?
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Rick Carmickle said:
I understand what you are asking about, however, let me offer an alternative perspective. The question of dinosaurs is a scientific question about paleontology. Because the geological, astronomical, and paleontological evidence is clear and irrefutable, as believers it’s time to except the evidence of science. The universe is 14.3 billion years old, and the earth 4.5 billion years old. And the dinosaurs lived 66 to 250,000,000 years ago. In fact, the T-Rex is closer in time to us than the Stegosaurus. With that, the best resource is a paleontology book on dinosaurs. Unfortunately, Christians don’t write those very often.
I love my Christian brothers who have a different perspective on the timeline of creation. But Answers in Genesis is simply deceiving fellow believers from the truth God has made apparent to those who look. And I like the recommendations of John Walton’s Works.
Well said. Followers of the one who called himself The Truth should be willing to seek truth where ever it is found. We should also have a standard of excellence in our thinking, learning, and scholarship. God did not leave all of the fossil evidence and make the earth/universe merely look really old just to mess with our heads. The heavens and the earth declare God's glory and we should begin listening to them. The Bible is not a science book, was never intended to be, and is not at odds with science. The Bible was written by a group of ancient authors with ancient conceptions of cosmology, in language and thought categories that they and their audience could understand. There are no Dinosaurs in the Bible because they didn't exist anymore by the time the Bible was being written. Therefore, it is wrong for us to try to force-fit Dinosaurs into the Bible. We obscure the meaning of the Bible when we take ancient near eastern concepts (like Leviathan and Rahab) make them be what we want them to be rather than trying to understand what they meant to the original writers/audience.
As Rick said, if you want you learn about Dinosaurs, find a book on paleontology written by someone trained in that field whose work has stood up to peer review by others trained in that field. Leave the fake science alone, fake science is in no way God honoring. When it comes to biblical studies, I second the recommendation of John Walton's works, starting with the Lost World of Genesis 1 and the whole Lost World series.
I think a God who has been faithfully ruling and sustaining the universe without a single Higgs boson particle unaccounted for or out of place for the last 14+ Billion years is pretty awesome, and is perfectly compatible with the biblical portrait of God. He is truly the Ancient of Days.
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Well I have no useful recommendation here... I too feel it is an odd request but I can understand the desire. And while I feel like Kiyah I know there are people who have other opinions. I hope that a good resource can be recommended but I also know even a in-depth resource will be small simply because you might as well ask about a good Christian book on Astronomy the Bible indeed touches on it in a few places but it is not a focus of the Bible.
-dan
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