Auto sync of resources: a good idea?
Reading the news today about Zondervan / Logos brought back to mind a question that occurred to me when Amazon pulled George Orwell's books from the Kindle. What would it take for Logos to yank a book out of my library? Zondervan would have enough clout to do that. Many long-time Logos users have books that are no longer available for purchase. Could books like that disappear? It would be helpful to know what are we buying. I haven't read the EULA in a long time. Do we only buy rights to use the book? Just wondering.
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Excellent question Tim, I would like some reassurances on this as well. On a related note, what bout the feature in 4 that is supposed to download missing resources. Does this/ can this apply to resources that Libronix no longer can sell?
I would initially think not, but why not maintain distribution rights for books already sold? What then about missing books? How can I be sure I have all of them without manually inserting every CD I've ever had (ugh!)?
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
It sure gets back to user control and we are used to having a backup to our licenses, controlling which resources we have in our Program files folder...are we really having all of this taken away? I feel like I am in a tug or war and don't know if my attitude is healthy. Do I just let go and say nothing? Also, I would really like to know if new resources that come out after v. 4 is official, will also work on version 3? My husband has had more than one discussion with me since he sees the direction Logos seems to be headed in--he fully realizes they are a business but wants to protect me and wants to know my options.
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TimBahula said:
Many long-time Logos users have books that are no longer available for purchase. Could books like that disappear?
Very good question. We need some clarification from Logos. Will such books be removed from our HDD or simply not be downloaded if they go missing?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I'm not the expert on this subject by any means (but I thought I'd chime in with what I know while Bob's away). Please don't take my answers as the official company position, but just a reflection of my best understanding. (I'm just a lowly developer... [:)])
We are working to build a definitive archive of all resources so that Logos 4 can automatically download them, whether they be in Logos 4, LBXLLS or (gasp!) LSF/LIX format. (LSF/LIX we will probably rebuild.) I think we're working to get books from third-party publishers into our system, so that you don't have to trawl the internet for Galaxie journals, for example. (This will probably start to come online in the Beta 4 or Beta 5 timeframe.)
I think that this archive will include the resources we can no longer sell (but did in the past). That being said, I think there are a handful of books that we are not allowed to redistribute at all, but I don't believe we have any obligation to the publishers to remove those books from the systems of customers who legitimately purchased them in the past. I don't know how our current contracts are written, but I suspect that we don't write in clauses that would require us to remove resources from customers. (After all, that's just more work for us. [:)])
Worst case, we just won't be able to download resources that are no longer for sale (but I hope it doesn't come to that). I don't see us ever proactively deleting resources from existing customers just because our license to sell them to new customers has expired.
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JoanKorte said:
I feel like I am in a tug or war and don't know if my attitude is healthy.
Joan you are a customer.... I am a customer, Dave is a customer etc... it is essential we ask these questions and certainly not wrong to do so... the fact that you wrestle with the question is an indication of your hearts desire to do the right thing so I don't think your attitude is unhealthy in any way and I never read anything you have said that would make me think otherwise. Its a good thing to ask questons of companies for which we enter into financial transactions with... even ones we trust like Logos... I don't believe they would ever intentailly set about to do the wrong thing by us... and I believe it would always be their intent, as Bradley has indicated, to try and protect the finanical investment we have all made in our libraries..but I still think these are loose ends that need asking so the qustions are good ones to ask.
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Bradley Grainger said:
Worst case, we just won't be able to download resources that are no longer for sale
Bradley
Thanks for the information as to what is happening. I trust you appreciate that this raises more questions for Bob to answer, because the reality & consequences of "cloud" resource management are just beginning to sink in and I think it would be best for Logos to be proactive by publicising:-
- the policy
- its implementation
- its consequences
- its handling of specific issues eg. for your worst case above, or when Logos cannot obtain/does not have a copy, how will Logos handle my investment when I have a copy?
I really want to avoid more individual debate by having something concrete to "shoot" at!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Thanks, Dave, Andrew, and Bradley for your responses. I feel better, and yes, the risk of being honest was worth it. Not that Bob or Logos hasn't thought of it or wouldn't do it, Dave's idea of publicizing-policy, implementation and consequences etc. is excellent.
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TimBahula said:
Reading the news today about Zondervan / Logos brought back to mind a question that occurred to me when Amazon pulled George Orwell's books from the Kindle.
If I remember correctly, the problem Amazon had was that the company that sold these books through Amazon to Kindle users did not have permission from the actual copyright holder to do so.
If Zondervan is selling Zondervan books through Logos, I don't think this is a real threat.Since Logos only deals with actual copyright holders, this shouldn't be a problem with any books sold by Logos (or Nelson, for that matter).
It might be a good idea to read the EULA, but the bigger issue is the agreement between Logos and other copyright holders. As far as I know, that agreement requires that once books are sold to a customer, that agreement cannot be rescinded unless the user breaks the EULA.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Bradley's right. (He usually is.)
We don't have any way to delete a book on your system, that I know of, and no intention to do it. We don't have any contracts with publishers that require (or could require) us to take back something you already have.
-- Bob
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Thanks for the clarification, Bob.
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Dave Hooton said:Bradley Grainger said:
Worst case, we just won't be able to download resources that are no longer for sale
Bradley
Thanks for the information as to what is happening. I trust you appreciate that this raises more questions for Bob to answer, because the reality & consequences of "cloud" resource management are just beginning to sink in and I think it would be best for Logos to be proactive by publicising:-
- the policy
- its implementation
- its consequences
- its handling of specific issues eg. for your worst case above, or when Logos cannot obtain/does not have a copy, how will Logos handle my investment when I have a copy?
I really want to avoid more individual debate by having something concrete to "shoot" at!
Dave I agree with you but, you know how much Bob hate to make policy let alone make it public.....this is one of those times Bob where you really do need to put a policy out there to avoid wanton speculation...
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The following is looking more at license syncing than resource syncing, but this thread made me think of it. Will we have control of our license (and not need to connect to Logos to install Libronix?
Summary of the following:
1. The need to get licenses through a central computer may be very difficult for overseas workers working in areas that either don't have internet, or closely monitor internet activity (possibly against bible use).
2. If the political winds should blow in the direction of getting rid of teh Bible, having all the licenses centrally located would effectively give them the ability to remove everyone's libraries overnight.
3. If Logos should go out of business, there will be no way to reinstall our libraries.
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This made me think of one thing I really like about Libronix.
If I have the program, the resources and the license on disk, I can
install Libronix without any need to connect to a central computer.
Normally this wouldn't matter, but my location and a study of history
gives a few concerns to our licenses being controlled centrally.I
live in a country that did at one time try to get rid of all the Bibles
(though that was in the past and they are now printed here). For a
print bible you can keep them stuffed away. For L3 I could keep it on
my computer and unlimited backups in different places. If the licenses
are all kept at a central location (Logos headquarters), it would be
very easy for someone to remove everyone's entire libraries overnight.
there may be a few that get word of it and never connect that computer
to the internet again (thus keeping their library), but if the computer
ever crashed, etc. and they needed to reinstall, it would be impossible
and the libraries would eventually be lost.That isn't happening
right now in the US (where the licenses are stored), but it has
happened in many places, continues to happen today in many places and
the political winds can change, sometimes quite quickly.Also,
there are many countries that have no/very limited internet or that
strickly control internet use. Even if Logos is having no problems, if
I, or others who live in such places, need to reinstall Libronix, it
may be a long time before that would be a possibility. One great
advantage of Libronix is for overseas workers who don't want to carry a
library, but if they need to connect to the internet to register their
licenses or books are forced to be downloaded through very slow
connections, many overseas workers (including myself in the future)
will no longer be able to use Libronix (or at least not install it on a
new computer).One other thought would be if Logos would ever go out of business. I know that isn't looking likely right now and everyone is working hard to make sure it never does, but if it should, we will lose our libraries as computers crash and die. There will be no more reinstalling.
www.3rdcultureliving.com - Simple Abundant Legacy
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I share you concerns .. this is a big issue and could be a deal breaker not only on going to L4 but on future purchases with Logos as they have not indicated we will be able to add new resources to L3.. Zondervan on board or not ... Logos have not given enough assurances on this yet - and the question is can they ever give enough assurances if we dont' have a license file in our control ?
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Rob said:
1. The need to get licenses through a central computer may be very difficult for overseas workers working in areas that either don't have internet, or closely monitor internet activity (possibly against bible use).
2. If the political winds should blow in the direction of getting rid of teh Bible, having all the licenses centrally located would effectively give them the ability to remove everyone's libraries overnight.
3. If Logos should go out of business, there will be no way to reinstall our libraries.
This is a succinct description of all that is wrong with cloud resource management and why we need local licence files. I put forward a few ideas elsewhere but now realise they are too restrictive in light of the above. Logos is concerned about piracy, We are concerned about our library remaining that way as well as enabling internet-deprived people to become users. I'm out of suggestions for the moment ...
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OK, we need a local licence file!
What also is not clear is how updates will be pushed. If it follows some other commercial trends it could be a 500 MB download with 20 MB for Dave, 70 MB for Andrew, 100 MB for Phil, 200 MB for Joan and 500 MB for George! Convenient packaging for Logos, but ...
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Rob, Andrew-yes, everything you say I agree with. Worst case scenario as my husband has said-"you purchase no more resources and continue to use version 3. You still have a larger Bible study library than anyone you know." Do I want Logos v. 4 and new resources? Yes, do I need them? No. I believe/hope they will respond and answer these questions particularly because they are really important issues and it would/could hurt us with respect to our future with Logos if they won't/don't. (Perhaps, I am impatient.)
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Dave Hooton said:
This is a succinct description of all that is wrong with cloud resource management and why we need local licence files.
But doesn't this just mean that you only get whatever it was that existed at the time of your last "backup" of licenses?
Scenario #1: Cloud resource managment in full force; political climate goes bad
You sign in offline and you only have your current resources validated.
Scenario #2: Cloud resource managment AND license back up in place; political climate goes bad
there is no more internet access; you sign in offline and you only have your current resources validated.
Just wondering
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
Scenario #1: Cloud resource managment in full force; political climate goes bad
You sign in offline and you only have your current resources validated.
And presumably this can continue for ever ... as long as you have a full backup and continue to use the same computer.
Robert Pavich said:Scenario #2: Cloud resource managment AND license back up in place; political climate goes bad
there is no more internet access; you sign in offline and you only have your current resources validated.
If you have installation DVD, licence file & resource backup you can travel ....
The licence file is a live file, continually updated by the server until things go bad.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I just wrote a full reply to this, but it seems to have been lost when posting.
Dave Hooton said:Scenario #1: Cloud resource managment in full force; political climate goes bad
You sign in offline and you only have your current resources validated.
This is only good for as long as I have the same computer. Not a long or even mid term solution.
Dave Hooton said:Scenario #2: Cloud resource managment AND license back up in place; political climate goes bad
there is no more internet access; you sign in offline and you only have your current resources validated.
Perfect for the consumer, assuming I can make an occasional backup of the license in case the powers that be decide to clear my license and leave me with a usless license to use in the future.
This would be great for the consumer, but I am not sure if Logos is trying to use the cloud method as a way to prevent piracy. Therefore I will mention a few thoughts about piracy.
Computer Piracy
I live in Asia, in the capital of piracy. Anything you want is available with all security features removed for the cost of a disk. Windows XP, Windows Vista, the latest DVDs, etc. All fully available with security and regional codes removed.
It doesn't matter how good your anti-piracy software is, it can and will be defeated. Some do it just for fun and post it on a server where it is not illegal, and therefore made available in areas where it is illegal.
The L3 system, could be transferred, but it had security features of its own that I think are as or more effective than other software based ones.
1. The software showed the user ID (generally an email address), so you could tell where it came from.
2. the License agreement stated, you couldn't give it away (and that is just generally known). Did some install on a third computer, I'm sure some did, but I don't think that is the piracy issue Logos may be concerned about. (and it seems L4 wouldn't be monitoring for that anyhow).
The point is that for the most part, the anti-piracy methods will be defeated by the pirates anyhow, while at the same time hurting those who would like a license backup for good use. (Sort of like the 4 foot security fence around my school, that makes us walk all they way around the school to the front gate, but allowed several computers to be stolen
.Note: I am using all legal software (mostly open source), though I have plenty of contacts with the pirated (which works just as well as my legal).
Rob
www.3rdcultureliving.com - Simple Abundant Legacy
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Rob said:
I just wrote a full reply to this, but it seems to have been lost when posting.
Dave Hooton said:Scenario #1: Cloud resource managment in full force; political climate goes bad
You sign in offline and you only have your current resources validated.
This is only good for as long as I have the same computer. Not a long or even mid term solution.
Dave Hooton said:Scenario #2: Cloud resource managment AND license back up in place; political climate goes bad
there is no more internet access; you sign in offline and you only have your current resources validated.
Just to clarify, both of the above credits bearing my name should have been Robert Pavich:
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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You're quick. I just noticed that when I looked at how the post showed. I had just highlighted and hit quote. Sorry for the misquote.
www.3rdcultureliving.com - Simple Abundant Legacy
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Rob said:
You're quick. I just noticed that when I looked at how the post showed. I had just highlighted and hit quote. Sorry for the misquote.
That's OK.
Regards,
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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