Theology Guide
Comments
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Thanks for clarifying Brian
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Rob Lambert said:
Where do Logosians discuss theology????
Someplace else. As Sean pointed out there are places to discuss the contents of Faithlife resources including their theological resources, but Faithlife/Verbum/Logos sells to a very broad base. Everyone who uses Faithlife/Verbum/Logos needs to feel comfortable coming onto the forums and the dedicated discussion pages and KNOW that they and their beliefs will not be attacked. We have gotten very good at that - acknowledging that we do not agree except to agree to take the discussion elsewhere.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
We have gotten very good at that - acknowledging that we do not agree except to agree to take the discussion elsewhere.
We also enjoy paint drying.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:MJ. Smith said:
We have gotten very good at that - acknowledging that we do not agree except to agree to take the discussion elsewhere.
We also enjoy paint drying.
Especially the natural paints used on 14th century French icons .....[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Especially the natural paints used on 14th century French icons .....
We're tempera-mental like that.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I went ahead and upgraded today because Anglican Silver was absolutely too good to pass up. Let me say that on first use, I'm liking the look and snappiness of L8 very much. You've done a good job with this upgrade.
Now, the Theology Guide: hoo boy, is this ever limited! You've barely started on it.
I took a look at the subject of my doctoral thesis, theories of the atonement.
I don't want to comment too much on the LSOT article. It is not without problems. I don't understand why you cited Aulén but didn't give a link to the resource, which is in Logos and in my library. This happens a lot in Logos, and there's really no excuse for it:
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Coming to the recommended reading, it is extremely limited. Is there a reason that it is restricted only to monographs? Practically every systematic theology has a section or chapter on theories of the atonement, and every theological dictionary an article. Those are often more useful, especially for students and other beginners, than plowing through a longer work. Why isn't Aulén in the list? Again, he's in Logos, and he basically set the parameters for the discussion of this topic for the whole last century. If you're trying to keep it short and basic, he's definitely to be preferred over a work like Moltmann's.
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I'm also somewhat confused by the search results. Why is there a separate entry for each page number even if it's the same article? That's going to get really messy when you add more titles.
I also don't understand the selection of the key verses. It's mostly whole chapters of the Bible. It omits many important passages related to this topic. It contains nothing from the Gospels; that right there shows a built-in bias to a particular theory or theories.
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Finally, again on the few resources that are annotated: their utility is limited. I say this not because they are bad or unimportant ones. I say it because they have very clear and detailed structures, and it's very easy to find topics in them. Even though I'm not in his camp, Berkhof is on my toolbar and one of the first places I turn for answers to basic questions, simply because he's that easy and clear. The tool doesn't help with that much. I see its greatest potential, yet to be tapped, in being able to compare different theologies and uncover points of agreement and disagreement that would otherwise go undiscovered.
I'm sorry that my feedback on this tool is primarily negative; in general, you've done a great job with L8 and it needs to be commended. Still, the Theology Guide was put forward as a selling point--and it worked; I bought a feature set I hadn't planned on largely because of it. But it's not ready for prime time, and it has a long long way to go before it gets there.
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Sean said:
Coming to the recommended reading, it is extremely limited. Is there a reason that it is restricted only to monographs? Practically every systematic theology has a section or chapter on theories of the atonement, and every theological dictionary an article. Those are often more useful, especially for students and other beginners, than plowing through a longer work.
My understanding is that Recommended Resources will generally cover monographs — especially for big topics — and systematic theologies should be covered in the appropriate section of the Theology Guide (eventually). Less-studied topics do list both articles and Systematic Theology sections under Recommended Resources.
I'm not sure why theological dictionaries aren't linked in. That would seem an obvious thing to do, especially as there aren't many of them.
Sean said:Why is there a separate entry for each page number even if it's the same article? That's going to get really messy when you add more titles.
That makes no sense. It looks like a quirk of Strong's as it doesn't affect the other works. Perhaps an error with how that book was compiled?
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Sean said:
I'm sorry that my feedback on this tool is primarily negative; in general, you've done a great job with L8 and it needs to be commended. Still, the Theology Guide was put forward as a selling point--and it worked; I bought a feature set I hadn't planned on largely because of it. But it's not ready for prime time, and it has a long long way to go before it gets there.
Thank you, Sean, for taking the time to show FL the amount of work they have ahead of them to make this tool world class, by unpacking your area of expertise.
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Sean said:
<snip />
I don't understand why you cited Aulén but didn't give a link to the resource, which is in Logos and in my library.
<snip />
Thanks for pointing that out, Sean: we missed that one. I've passed that along for correction.
As a reminder for others, you can report tagging errors like this, along with other data errors and content typos, directly from the help menu in the upper right corner.
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Mark Barnes said:
<snip />
Sean said:Why is there a separate entry for each page number even if it's the same article? That's going to get really messy when you add more titles.
That makes no sense. It looks like a quirk of Strong's as it doesn't affect the other works. Perhaps an error with how that book was compiled?
We'd also like to improve the user experience for this section. There are some issues with how these annotated text ranges (see here about what those makes possible for the LSTO) interact with article boundaries that we plan to address.
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Mark Barnes said:Sean said:
Why is there a separate entry for each page number even if it's the same article? That's going to get really messy when you add more titles.
That makes no sense. It looks like a quirk of Strong's as it doesn't affect the other works. Perhaps an error with how that book was compiled?
Warning: Technical Implementation Details Ahead. (I'm not trying to defend the current behaviour, just trying to explain it.)
The search engine has always searched by “articles” (or verses in Bible/Morph Search, but that's irrelevant for this discussion). When you search for this AND that, the two terms are required to be colocated in the same article. Article divisions are somewhat arbitrary and determined by the resource creator; the standards for determining article boundaries have changed over time. In some old resources, there is one article per page (in the corresponding print edition), even if those aren't at logical boundaries.
Searching for very long ranges of text (e.g., with {Section} or {Milestone}) is a relatively new addition to the search engine and doesn't map well on to this article-based model. To make the integration of these new searches possible, the long text ranges get turned into one search result per article, even though there's logically just one result. As Sean said, we'd like to improve this user experience, but it will take some development effort. We thought that being able to search (and combine it with WITHIN and other operators) was sufficiently useful that it was worth shipping even with these rough edges.
Regarding "illogical" article boundaries: in the past it was not very easy for us to change the internal article structure of an already-published resource. We've recently developed technology that makes this possible. This may result in us fixing some of these old resources that have odd article boundaries.
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Sean said:
that right there shows a built-in bias to a particular theory or theories.
Thank you for noting LSOT's non-objectivity. (Cf. https://community.logos.com/forums/t/174070.aspx)
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Sean Boisen said:
for each of the 234 Systematic Theology topics
Thank you for the above information. May I assume that the 234 topics are the sub points found in the Lexham Survey of Theology?
As far as some considering the Theology Guide as Protestant biased, I would consider it part of protestantism biased, as I tried to find information on the following, and nothing came up:
Christian living, orthopraxis, spiritual warfare.
I did find information on demons, spiritual gifts, etc.
So the question is: in one of the web pages advertising L8, there was a mention of making own Systematic theology.
a) is there a resource that lists all possible sub topics including sub topics in Prolegomena, Israelogy, Moral theology, etc?
b) what is the recommended module to produce own ST?: Pbb, workflow, canvas, notes?
c) can one do an own theology guide? how about something in the line of Catholic Topical index?
Thanks ahead for any input, and congratulations on the improvements to L8.
Blessings.
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Sean Boisen said:
In your example, "scripture" is an alias for <LSTO The Bible>: so a search for {Section <LSTO Scripture>} shows all the key verses from this topic (which happens to be a fairly long list).
Sean, this has a lot of potential esp when you compare it the algorithm you are using to generate "Important Passages" This has the potential to do the same for systematic theology +. There is a nexus of data that can be used....
Will we see {Section <LSTO *******>} in the search templates soon?
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Rob, do a Basic search in your library for "fulfillment of Judaism". In mine, quite a few Christian authors, as well as some of the earliest Church documents/authors described Christ, Christianity, and/or the earliest Church as "the fulfillment of Judaism". I think what you read is building on this thought, that Christ did not say to reject Judaism, as he came to fulfill it and complete/perfect it (Matt 5:17). Luke also implies that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism (Lk 24:44-45). I know in my faith for example, Roman Catholic, many believe that Judaism is the foundation of our faith not something separate.
One resource that caught my eye, speaking about this topic a lot, was "Surprised by Christ: My Journey from Judaism to Orthodox Christianity" by Bernstein.
Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary says "Paul demonstrates that the church is not opposed to but rooted in Judaism, and that both will find their eschatological fulfillment through God’s grace and mercy." Hans Dieter Betz, “Hellenism,” ed. David Noel Freedman, The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary (New York: Doubleday, 1992), 133.
Hope that helps!
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Thank you, THANK YOU Don
It does help.
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Don Awalt said:
In mine, quite a few Christian authors, as well as some of the earliest Church documents/authors described Christ, Christianity, and/or the earliest Church as "the fulfillment of Judaism". I think what you read is building on this thought, that Christ did not say to reject Judaism, as he came to fulfill it and complete/perfect it (Matt 5:17). Luke also implies that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism (Lk 24:44-45).
Jam the brakes!!! Uh, no...no...and no. Christianity is NOT the fulfillment of Judaism. Let's get something very straight: Judaism is NOT the religion of the Old Testament (Tanakh). Judaism is a religion that was birthed during and after the exile in Babylon. It is the religion of "traditions of men" and "traditions of the elders" that was concocted in response to historical developments (exile, Hellenism, and the Hasmonean travesty of combining the tribally separate offices of king and high priest into a single person). Yeishuua` did not condone Judaism; He condemned it repeatedly. (Mk. 7:5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13.) The things "received" in Mk. 7: 3, 4 are NOT from Scripture but from longstanding rabbinic dictate developed since the exile. The traditions of the elders eventually took on such a non-biblical cant that they invented a story in which Elijah tells a rabbi that YHWH's response to the rabbinic rejection of His will is that He chortles with satisfaction that "My children have defeated Me!" Insane.
The fact that churchmen both past and present have been blind to the drastic difference between Tanakh and Judaism is evidence that the same condemnation Yeishuua` leveled at the rabbinic lie is also to be leveled at the Church with it own unbiblical traditions. These conditions are not unexpected nor unanticipated. They are clearly spelled out in detail in prophecy.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul, in what way does your response above focus "on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc."? Weren't you just feeling "moderated"? Is there, perhaps, a causal relationship here?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Paul:
Some interesting points mentioned, are there any resources that you recommend that deal with some of the points mentioned?
The Anchor Yale Bible dictionary , mentions that Judaism was originally a term applicable to the tribe of Judah, but eventually meant religion practiced by the Hebrews.
Of the four key elements, I think you refer to the 3rd:
1 the Temple
2 Israelite Scripture
3 nonscriptural or extrascriptural tradition
4 apocalyptism
[Vol 3 page 1038 ABD]
Seems that Jesus had problem with no. 3 in what seems that "wisdom sages", declared themselves "living Torah", and missed the real "living Torah" visiting them right then and there (Jesus).
Due to that usurpation, the temple was abolished, and the gentile Bride of Christ (Body of Christ) became the living stones New Temple of the Holy Spirit, with all that that entails.
Thanks ahead of time for any reference to searches, resources and the like that shed more light on the different subjects mentioned.
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I tried typing renewal and it does not seem to work. How should I search in the theology guide?
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Blair Laird said:
I tried typing renewal and it does not seem to work. How should I search in the theology guide?
"Renewal" is not a term currently found in the guide. Try something else like "sanctification".
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The renewal of all things belongs in the eschatology category. The renewal of person can refer to regeneration or sanctification even glorification. That's why I am trying to understand how I can best search with it to get what I am looking for
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MJ. Smith said:
Faithlife/Verbum/Logos sells to a very broad base. Everyone who uses Faithlife/Verbum/Logos needs to feel comfortable coming onto the forums and the dedicated discussion pages and KNOW that they and their beliefs will not be attacked. We have gotten very good at that - acknowledging that we do not agree except to agree to take the discussion elsewhere.
[Y]
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Hamilton Ramos said:Sean Boisen said:
for each of the 234 Systematic Theology topics
Thank you for the above information. May I assume that the 234 topics are the sub points found in the Lexham Survey of Theology?
<snip />
That's correct. The Contents page in the resource shows all the topics and their hierarchical relationships.
Hamilton Ramos said:<snip /> ... I tried to find information on the following, and nothing came up:
Christian living, orthopraxis, spiritual warfare.
<snip />
If you find places where you think we should have an alias for a topic, please suggest them. I'll pass these three along.
Hamilton Ramos said:<snip />
So the question is: in one of the web pages advertising L8, there was a mention of making own Systematic theology.
a) is there a resource that lists all possible sub topics including sub topics in Prolegomena, Israelogy, Moral theology, etc?
b) what is the recommended module to produce own ST?: Pbb, workflow, canvas, notes?
c) can one do an own theology guide? how about something in the line of Catholic Topical index?
Thanks ahead for any input, and congratulations on the improvements to L8.
Blessings.
I'm not sure what web page you're referring to. You could use all the things you list (PBB, Canvas, Notes) to organize information on systematic theology for yourself, but there's no additional formal tool for doing this.
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Mike Tourangeau said:Sean Boisen said:
In your example, "scripture" is an alias for <LSTO The Bible>: so a search for {Section <LSTO Scripture>} shows all the key verses from this topic (which happens to be a fairly long list).
Sean, this has a lot of potential esp when you compare it the algorithm you are using to generate "Important Passages" This has the potential to do the same for systematic theology +. There is a nexus of data that can be used....
Will we see {Section <LSTO *******>} in the search templates soon?
We plan to continue improving Search Templates, so I expect you will some for Survey of Theology soon.
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Blair Laird said:
The renewal of all things belongs in the eschatology category. The renewal of person can refer to regeneration or sanctification even glorification. That's why I am trying to understand how I can best search with it to get what I am looking for
If you can't find a matching label for a topic, you can try searching the resource:
If you can identify a more general category, the Contents page shows all the child categories (which are more specific).
We've captured as many alternate terms as we could think of to express these concepts, but I'm sure there are others, so please make suggestions as you look for something and don't find it. Of course, the concept you're thinking of might not line up with our categorization (either because it crosses concepts that we treat separately, or because it's more detailed than what we've captured).
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Thank you Sean for the answers.
Have you taken a look at the following:
https://projekter.aau.dk/projekter/files/281070062/Master_Thesis_of_Simon_Josias_Graf.pdf
TheOn and CalvOn, are theology ontology and Calvinism ontology.
Some users are curious to know if Logos will eventually pair with such ontology systems. It would be great to have a tool like the one the author of the above thesis suggests ingrained in Logos Software.
Blessings.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Thank you Sean for the answers.
Have you taken a look at the following:
https://projekter.aau.dk/projekter/files/281070062/Master_Thesis_of_Simon_Josias_Graf.pdf
TheOn and CalvOn, are theology ontology and Calvinism ontology.
Some users are curious to know if Logos will eventually pair with such ontology systems. It would be great to have a tool like the one the author of the above thesis suggests ingrained in Logos Software.
Blessings.
In fact, you'll find reference in his thesis to Logos' work on ontological models on pages 21-26, based on some earlier presentations of mine which Simon Graf and I briefly corresponded about. That being said, I haven't yet had a chance to read his thesis or to see how his goals compare with ours.
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Follow up question. For something like Calvin's Institutes, there are a plethora of versions (different translators, dates, etc.). Would we have to own the "right" one to get it to work in the Systematic Theologies section or the Theology Guide? I currently have been using (with lots of my notes):
LLS:42.110.15
2013-07-22T16:45:43Z
CICR.logos4If I had to buy a new version to have access to the Institutes in these new features, that would make the Theological Guide much less valuable to me.
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