Dear Beta Tester
Please remember when responding to those of us that saw Logos 8 for the first time yesterday that our entry point is very different to yours.
For better or worse I allowed my Logos 7 system to update to 8 based on the way Faithlife are position it on the website. My expectation is that this is a full function, GA, upgrade. The website does not in any way suggest that this is a product aimed at Early Adopters.
Where you had weeks or months to adjust I have had hours. Our starting position for the launch is different and if you choose to respond to our frustrations you need to do that based on the context set for us by the launch process.
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We will try to be conscious of this.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Graham Owen said:
Please remember when responding to those of us that saw Logos 8 for the first time yesterday that our entry point is very different to yours.
FWIW, I agree with this. The more significant the upgrade, the longer it will take to get used to. The initial reaction from beta testers is often different to their response now!
That said, the fact that previously unhappy beta-testers are now happy should be encouragement for people like yourself who are not entirely happy now. We quickly got used to several of the things we complained about, and sometimes found them (to our surprise) an improvement.
Graham Owen said:For better or worse I allowed my Logos 7 system to update to 8 based on the way Faithlife are position it on the website. My expectation is that this is a full function, GA, upgrade. The website does not in any way suggest that this is a product aimed at Early Adopters.
It is a full-function upgrade in the sense that (in my view) it's a significant improvement on L7. It's not "finished" in the sense that they'll be an 8.1, 8.2, probably right up to 8.15.
There are different software development methodologies. Gone are the days when a release would be completely polished and finished before going to the public. Not even Windows works like that, and hasn't for years. Logos 8 will be continually improved over its lifetime. I see that as a good thing, even though I appreciate that sometimes means a step backwards for a small minority of users who relied on functions in the Notes Tool and Home Page that are now missing.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:Graham Owen said:
Please remember when responding to those of us that saw Logos 8 for the first time yesterday that our entry point is very different to yours.
FWIW, I agree with this. The more significant the upgrade, the longer it will take to get used to. The initial reaction from beta testers is often different to their response now!
That said, the fact that previously unhappy beta-testers are now happy should be encouragement for people like yourself who are not entirely happy now. We quickly got used to several of the things we complained about, and sometimes found them (to our surprise) an improvement.
Graham Owen said:
For better or worse I allowed my Logos 7 system to update to 8 based on the way Faithlife are position it on the website. My expectation is that this is a full function, GA, upgrade. The website does not in any way suggest that this is a product aimed at Early Adopters.
It is a full-function upgrade in the sense that (in my view) it's a significant improvement on L7. It's not "finished" in the sense that they'll be an 8.1, 8.2, probably right up to 8.15.
There are different software development methodologies. Gone are the days when a release would be completely polished and finished before going to the public. Not even Windows works like that, and hasn't for years. Logos 8 will be continually improved over its lifetime. I see that as a good thing, even though I appreciate that sometimes means a step backwards for a small minority of users who relied on functions in the Notes Tool and Home Page that are now missing.
Thanks Mark
I work in the software industry as a Product Manager and if we released our products with as many undocumented changes in UI behaviour as I have seen reported here I suspect my reward would be a p45.
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Graham Owen said:
I work in the software industry as a Product Manager and if we released our products with as many undocumented changes in UI behaviour as I have seen reported here I suspect my reward would be a p45.
I don't know your sector, but enterprise software is far more conservative than business software which is far more conservative than consumer software. And even within sectors, different developers have different philosophies, as you know. Faithlife have always been towards the less conservative end of the spectrum, even within their sector, and I doubt that will ever change.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Graham Owen said:
Please remember when responding to those of us that saw Logos 8 for the first time yesterday that our entry point is very different to yours.
For better or worse I allowed my Logos 7 system to update to 8 based on the way Faithlife are position it on the website. My expectation is that this is a full function, GA, upgrade. The website does not in any way suggest that this is a product aimed at Early Adopters.
Where you had weeks or months to adjust I have had hours. Our starting position for the launch is different and if you choose to respond to our frustrations you need to do that based on the context set for us by the launch process.
I had to Google p45. Doesn't look good.
What you advise makes sense. You are right that beta testers have had time to adjust and must keep in mind that users seeing it for the first time may have a few disappointments mixed in with the thrill of new software. I think users of the refined version will very quickly adjust as well.
Your expectation that this should be a full-function GA upgrade might be well met with 8.0. As good as it is, Faithlife has all kinds of ideas from users about how to make it even better and they are surely doing so as we speak.
I also have some frustrations, some things that didn't turn out the way I wanted. But for all that the 8.0 engine is incredible, sophisticated software--and all for free.
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Graham Owen said:
p45
This is insider talk. Please be clear to us outsiders when you communicate. My personal enthusiasm for computer inside stuff is close to zero.
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scooter said:Graham Owen said:
p45
This is insider talk. Please be clear to us outsiders when you communicate. My personal enthusiasm for computer inside stuff is close to zero.
Its not insider computer talk, is a British cultural reference that anyone who has won the lottery of life and been born English would understand.
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Mark Barnes said:Graham Owen said:I work in the software industry as a Product Manager and if we released our products with as many undocumented changes in UI behaviour as I have seen reported here I suspect my reward would be a p45.
I don't know your sector, but enterprise software is far more conservative than business software which is far more conservative than consumer software. And even within sectors, different developers have different philosophies, as you know. Faithlife have always been towards the less conservative end of the spectrum, even within their sector, and I doubt that will ever change.
Agree that this is nothing new Mark although that doesn't make disregarding the need for a sensible level of continuity and communication about behavioural changes in the UI right.
I have too much invested in Logos to seriously consider moving to an alternative so I have little choice here but to stay current and remain a loyal, if somewhat frustrated user.
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scooter said:Graham Owen said:
p45
This is insider talk. Please be clear to us outsiders when you communicate. My personal enthusiasm for computer inside stuff is close to zero.
Sorry Scooter
P45 is a UK tax document issued as part of the process of leaving an employer so in context I was indicating that I would lose my job if I did not take proper account of the impact of changes on the current users of our software.
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Graham Owen said:
Sorry Scooter
P45 is a UK tax document issued as part of the process of leaving an employer so in context I was indicating that I would lose my job if I did not take proper account of the impact of changes on the current users of our software.
Thanks, Graham. I, too, would like a finished product for a roll out like this. I would like FL to minimize the rest-comes-later gig. I am somewhere between a Late + Never Adapter, so we'll-catch-you-up-anon most times does not capture me in any time frame.
There is thus L7, the often schmozzle, here L7/L8/wassup, then L8. This method does not suit me. Some of it is my fault; Lx is still the best software around, + has the most interesting books, but I do not enjoy learning the software maze.
Cheers from Canada.
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scooter said:Graham Owen said:
Sorry Scooter
P45 is a UK tax document issued as part of the process of leaving an employer so in context I was indicating that I would lose my job if I did not take proper account of the impact of changes on the current users of our software.
Thanks, Graham. I, too, would like a finished product for a roll out like this. I would like FL to minimize the rest-comes-later gig. I am somewhere between a Late + Never Adapter, so we'll-catch-you-up-anon most times does not capture me in any time frame.
There is thus L7, the often schmozzle, here L7/L8/wassup, then L8. This method does not suit me. Some of it is my fault; Lx is still the best software around, + has the most interesting books, but I do not enjoy learning the software maze.
Cheers from Canada.
I think that you are probably right when you say that Logos is still the best. Its a long time since I looked at an alternative though so that is a subjective statement. One thing that Logos and now Faithlife have struggled with though is customer communications. Poor/late, and sometimes misleading, communications around new versions and packaging options has been a regular occurrence.
I have every expectation that the issues in Logos 8 will be fixed as Faithlife do the right thing I just really don't understand why it has to be so painful.
I understand Mark's point about where Faithlife position Logos in terms of development approach but given how grown up they are these days when you look at the available content they really do need to have a more mature attitude on the software tool that accesses that content. Logos is no longer just a Bible Study program it is the gateway to resources that cost me a significant 5 figure sum. When Logos is working well that investment is justified when I'm wasting time struggling with the basics then, for me, something has gone wrong.
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