Logos 8 v 7 - Whats missing?
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Mark Barnes said:
The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.
Wow, this describes my experience and perspective perfectly. A willingness to learn and adapt is key.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bruce Dunning said:Mark Barnes said:
The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.
Wow, this describes my experience and perspective perfectly. A willingness to learn and adapt is key.
I agree, but also strongly feel that software developers have a responsibility to be sensitive to customer workflow and features being utilized by their customers. In conjunction with changes needs to be a map that directs users on how do adapt the changes into their workflow. Many users feel this should be intuitive and not require significant efforts to adapt to the new structure. Therein lies the problem of defining what this balance should be.
I personally enjoy the change and learning how to improve my workflow with each update, but realize many do not. Some users have had their workflow disrupted by some changes that were probably not necessary for the improvement of the software. The good news is FL is aware of those and are working to adapt accordingly.
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John Fidel said:Bruce Dunning said:Mark Barnes said:
The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.
Wow, this describes my experience and perspective perfectly. A willingness to learn and adapt is key.
I agree, but also strongly feel that software developers have a responsibility to be sensitive to customer workflow and features being utilized by their customers. In conjunction with changes needs to be a map that directs users on how do adapt the changes into their workflow. Many users feel this should be intuitive and not require significant efforts to adapt to the new structure. Therein lies the problem of defining what this balance should be.
While I agree with this, it should be taken with a grain of salt. There are some who just refuse to even try to change, and that is not right either. I also agree with Mark that it is fruitless to keep fighting the system after the dust has settled. Some things we have won on (example: FL is actively working on restoring some of the old Homepage functionality) and some things we have lost on (Example: Note Titles). But if we are honest, many many MANY of the things are done in L8 the exact same way they were done in L7. The things that are different (aside from notes which is a complete overhaul but even then is not as much of a learning curve as some seem to make it out to be) are different to make things better if you take the time to sit down and try and understand why the tool has changed the way it has.
As a beta tester, I have heard accusations that those of us who had access to the software early aren't sensitive and have already had time to adapt. While it is true that we have had time to adapt, a key is that we TRIED to adapt, and, for the most part, succeeded. Keep a positive attitude, ask questions, watch the quickstart videos. The new software is well worth the effort and time.
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One of the biggest fights us customers won 'against' Logos was over inline reverse interlinears with Logos 4. We all hated the ribbon, and wanted the L3 way of inline reverse-interlinears back. I was among many that argued for it to be re-added. Logos relented, but by the time it was re-added (only a few months), I'd got used to the ribbon and I've hardly ever used the old method since. That was an important lesson to me.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
…I completely disagree with this.
Every single major developer of software has had to make significant changes to that software over its lifetime to keep it current (think Microsoft's Word's ribbon). If Faithlife hadn't done that, we'd still be using Libronix the Logos Library System on Windows 3.1. (Or you might be. I'd have jumped ship to Accordance, high-dollar investment or not.)
The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.
Voicing disapproval, and appealing to Faithlife for change is perfectly legitimate, especially when a new major version has been released. But, once things have settled down, fighting against the system just isn't worth it. If we still want to be using Logos Bible Software in 2045 (and I'm planning to!), then just as Faithlife have to adapt, so do we.
Mark ...
1. Logos isn't adding machine software. Or typewriter software. Or send pictures to your mom software. The users (in theory) are concerned with sharing the hope of salvation with as many people as possible. Not spending hours on interesting changes and poorly planned interfaces.
2. Logos isn't a baby. And the developers aren't gods. They make mistakes, rush things, force things. And need to fix things.
3. When we buy a Cadallac, we don't think, well learning this thing (again) is part of the price. When we check into a nice hotel, we don't expect hard to use but well worth it! Logos asks for premium prices (or packages of books you don't need) ... the product should be easy to use.
4. It wasn't weeks ago, users were piling on, saying searches! Just fix the internals! Is that what they got? Of course not. Need another update. Or another. Or another.
5. I'll wait.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
3. When we buy a Cadallac, we don't think, well learning this thing (again) is part of the price. When we check into a nice hotel, we don't expect hard to use but well worth it! Logos asks for premium prices (or packages of books you don't need) ... the product should be easy to use.
If I bought a Ferrari, you can bet your life I'd take some extra driving lessons that I hadn't needed when I was driving a Toyota Camry. And if Ferrari bought out a new model, with a fancy new gearbox and electronic wizardry, you can be pretty sure I'd be paying careful attention to the dealer when he explained how to get the most out of the new system. And I certainly wouldn't try and drive it the same as the Camry, or even the old Ferrari…
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
One of the biggest fights us customers won 'against' Logos was over inline reverse interlinears with Logos 4. We all hated the ribbon, and wanted the L3 way of inline reverse-interlinears back. I was among many that argued for it to be re-added. Logos relented, but by the time it was re-added (only a few months), I'd got used to the ribbon and I've hardly ever used the old method since. That was an important lesson to me.
But if you hadn't "won", we probably wouldn't have the incredibly useful "Reader's Edition" RI! All in all, I'm grateful for a really responsive software company and an incredible community of users/experts/critics!
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Mark Barnes said:
(think Microsoft's Word's ribbon)
Actually, your example supports my assertion fully. If you compare the ribbon from the early 90s (Windows 3.1 days) until now, the level of consistency has been amazing. Yes, they've made changes, but those are mostly additional features...many of the ribbon buttons look identical to 25 years ago and execute the same functions.
SPSS is another example. I've used the software since grad school, and over some 35 years, can still log on an run a two-sample independent t-test without any trouble. The software has grown tremendously, but the basics and the fundamental usage hasn't changed. There are many others.
I'm not questioning the need for Logos to be improved, but the drastic changes that come about because of any reason other than necessity should be minimized. That was my point. And if you ask software experts, they'll agree with me on the importance of consistency in user interface (as I see some have already, below).
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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John Fidel said:
I agree, but also strongly feel that software developers have a responsibility to be sensitive to customer workflow and features being utilized by their customers. In conjunction with changes needs to be a map that directs users on how do adapt the changes into their workflow. Many users feel this should be intuitive and not require significant efforts to adapt to the new structure. Therein lies the problem of defining what this balance should be.
This for me is the point that needs to be understood by Faithlife.
I needed the document that Phil Gons has just published when I installed the update, it would have save me a lot of time and frustration and I would have been a much happier customer. Most of the detail in the document was available before 8 was released so this being available on day 1 was possible it was just not a priority for Faithlife. My hope is that Faithlife will learn the lesson and communicate better in the future...
I totally get that software will change for many reasons and that some of the change will always involve the UI, I also accept that most of the time real progress is made as part of the change so personally I'm not against change, I just want to know how the change is going to impact me with my existing workflow on day one so that I can adapt quickly and then start looking at the new stuff.
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Graham Owen said:
I'm not against change, I just want to know how the change is going to impact me with my existing workflow on day one so that I can adapt quickly and then start looking at the new stuff.
This is a reasonable expectation and one that I hope will be satisfied during L9 launch!
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Mark Barnes said:Denise said:
3. When we buy a Cadallac, we don't think, well learning this thing (again) is part of the price. When we check into a nice hotel, we don't expect hard to use but well worth it! Logos asks for premium prices (or packages of books you don't need) ... the product should be easy to use.
If I bought a Ferrari, you can bet your life I'd take some extra driving lessons that I hadn't needed when I was driving a Toyota Camry. And if Ferrari bought out a new model, with a fancy new gearbox and electronic wizardry, you can be pretty sure I'd be paying careful attention to the dealer when he explained how to get the most out of the new system. And I certainly wouldn't try and drive it the same as the Camry, or even the old Ferrari…
This is an excellent illustration.
To return to software, most people only use a small portion of what they purchase. I use Word and Excel almost every day and still don't know how to use half of its features.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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MJ. Smith said:
LOGOS 8 Saint resources are treated essentially as Daily Devotionals - lacking the date control (and hence, saint list control) of Logos 7 ... this is useful for personal devotions
LOGOS 7 Used a specific resource to index saint resources into a sanctoral (worship) cycle that was used to plan liturgies and worships. Along side the lectionary it allows for a complete planning of the worship service.
MJ --
Brilliant analysis... I really appreciate you championing this and other liturgical oriented elements of Logos! Maybe Logos should put you on their staff?
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Bruce Dunning said:Mark Barnes said:Denise said:
3. When we buy a Cadallac, we don't think, well learning this thing (again) is part of the price. When we check into a nice hotel, we don't expect hard to use but well worth it! Logos asks for premium prices (or packages of books you don't need) ... the product should be easy to use.
If I bought a Ferrari, you can bet your life I'd take some extra driving lessons that I hadn't needed when I was driving a Toyota Camry. And if Ferrari bought out a new model, with a fancy new gearbox and electronic wizardry, you can be pretty sure I'd be paying careful attention to the dealer when he explained how to get the most out of the new system. And I certainly wouldn't try and drive it the same as the Camry, or even the old Ferrari…
This is an excellent illustration.
To return to software, most people only use a small portion of what they purchase. I use Word and Excel almost every day and still don't know how to use half of its features.
Ok, I'll bite! Folks in our burg sadly admire the local Ferraris and Masseratis, knowing a tow truck will be needed on their inevitable journey down to Phoenix. Maybe a great time for their owners to carefully watch their user videos, they spent so much money on.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
When we buy a Cadallac
Never really understood why we use so many car based analogies for IT...
Some years ago Faithlife, or Logos as it was called then, had the foresight to realise that the real value they could deliver comes from being able to access high quality resources efficiently and chose to make the software "free".
When I first used Logos, it was primarily a Bible Searching program and it was amazing... The search tool enabled me to quickly find verses and soon became my new best friend.
Fast forward to today and while the search tool remains a great feature the value has extended to an extensive library of resources and because of this for me the library, it's tagging, the ability to organise it, these are the things that matter. Today, for me at least, the software is important because of how it enables me to access the library. I don't know at what point on my journey this became my reality but today the real value of Logos is the library and not the software.
What I see in 8 is a bunch of new features that should help me get more from my library when I get the time to play with them and integrate them into my workflow.
In the meantime I do expect to be able to access my expensive library with minimal interruption and in fairness to 8 that is possible once the changes are understood. If we go back to the car analogy for 8 vs 7 for me its like the difference between driving my car or my wife's car where the indicators and windscreen wiper controls are on different sides of the steering wheel, the change is noticeable, has some impact but it is relatively easy to adjust (although it does seem like errors occur at awkward times).
Of course we do need to acknowledge that the impact for users from a liturgical tradition is much greater. Something that it is easy to overlook as we focus on our own frustrations. I do hope Faithlife prioritise the functionality that has been highlighted by these users as personally I feel my issues pale to insignificance compared to their's.
Without ignoring the facts that it was released early with inadequate communications; for most non liturgical users 8 does deliver better performance than 7 and has some new features that I suspect will develop into genuinely useful tools and while some of us may have chosen to wait for a 8.x if we had known more personally I can still use my library even if someone did steal my favourite chair and desk.
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Denise said:
Ok, I'll bite! Folks in our burg sadly admire the local Ferraris and Masseratis, knowing a tow truck will be needed on their inevitable journey down to Phoenix. Maybe a great time for their owners to carefully watch their user videos, they spent so much money on.
I'm sure both of us could make the illustration go in whichever way suited our purposes :-). The the essential point remains — the more you invest (effort, time, money, in order of importance) — the more you get out. Nothing comes for minimal effort, least of all studying God's word.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Denise said:
Ok, I'll bite! Folks in our burg sadly admire the local Ferraris and Masseratis, knowing a tow truck will be needed on their inevitable journey down to Phoenix. Maybe a great time for their owners to carefully watch their user videos, they spent so much money on.
Are you saying the Logos users will need a metaphorical tow truck at some point where it breaks down to the point of needing a tow truck? Although Logos might not work exactly the way I want (or know) I've always been able to get from point A to B in my biblical studies - certainly much better than I ever did with my paper books. And the more I learn, the more I'm able to use it better.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
This is indeed a very helpful article.
Though I have to admit the first thought that crossed my mind, about two-thirds the way through, was, "Why in the world did they release this before all this stuff was complete?" Almost every point seems to say something like, "We'll be adding this/bringing this back in the near future."
I'm a bit puzzled, but I'm not a decision-maker at FL and I don't know all the corollaries, so I'll roll with it.
I do wish, "near future" was defined. Past experience hasn't always been good in that regard.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Reuben Helmuth said:Graham Owen said:
I'm not against change, I just want to know how the change is going to impact me with my existing workflow on day one so that I can adapt quickly and then start looking at the new stuff.
This is a reasonable expectation and one that I hope will be satisfied during L9 launch!
I doubt that 9 will be as high impact Reuben.
For me there was definitely a degree of complacency about the nature of upgrades, this is the worst since 3 became 4 in my opinion. 5, 6 and 7 were pretty non eventful on day one for me which made some of the things that I saw all the more shocking.
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Mark Barnes said:
I'm sure both of us could make the illustration go in whichever way suited our purposes :-). The the essential point remains — the more you invest (effort, time, money, in order of importance) — the more you get out. Nothing comes for minimal effort, least of all studying God's word.
Agree on illustrations ... they rarely fit perfectly. But your final comment enters theological territory. I'm a big believer in Jesus' commands (just believe), Peter and Pentecost (Joel), and the maximum that average folks across time could consume ... be good. No need for a Ferrari.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Doc B said:
If you compare the ribbon from the early 90s (Windows 3.1 days) until now, the level of consistency has been amazing.
There wasn't a ribbon in the early 1990s. That's the point. The ribbon didn't exist until 2007. You've forgotten how much has changed, and how disruptive that change was at the time. Now, I bet you wouldn't find 1% of people who would want to go back.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Denise said:
But your final comment enters theological territory. I'm a big believer in Jesus' commands (just believe), Peter and Pentecost (Joel), and the maximum that average folks across time could consume ... be good. No need for a Ferrari.
I agree with that, of course.
Yet one of the very best things about the Bible is that it's simple enough for a child to grasp and deep enough that decades of intense study will no exhaust its depths.
I agree with your desire to keep Bible study simple. Logos hasn't always been good at that, but it's getting much better. There's still some way to go. But remember that many of the features that some intermediate users find confusing will simply not be available to beginner users using Logos Basic or Logos Starter. Remember too that new users won't have the baggage of having to unlearn older ways of doing things.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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You are right that I don't remember the terminology from back then, but I do remember very little frustration during the transition, as the menu items, whatever they were called, functioned in the same (or very similar) ways.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
You are right that I don't remember the terminology from back then, but I do remember very little frustration during the transition, as the menu items, whatever they were called, functioned in the same (or very similar) ways.
Then that illustrates recognise that different people see the same transition differently. Your attitude towards the Office 2007 ribbon revolution seems to be most users' response to the Logos 8 changes.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Since Logos 8 came out I seem to be missing:
- waiting around for things to happen.
- frustration with the useless notes system.
- my disappointment with the web app.
- using google to search the Bible instead of Logos.
- wishing the library view was intuitive and fun to browse.
- enough money for all the interesting deals I'd like to purchase;)
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:
Since Logos 8 came out I seem to be missing:
- waiting around for things to happen.
- frustration with the useless notes system.
- my disappointment with the web app.
- using google to search the Bible instead of Logos.
- wishing the library view was intuitive and fun to browse.
- enough money for all the interesting deals I'd like to purchase;)
John could you be a little more specific?
- What do you mean by waiting around for things to happen? The vast majority of people have been reporting L8 is faster than L7
- How is the notes system useless? Again, many people see it as an advancement over what we used to have.
- The web app is an issue but they have been up front with this from day one that it is a work in progress and they years of development to catch up on.
- The library is more intuitive than it was in L7 but I am curious as to what you would like to see happen with the library?
- What makes you search google for a reference than L8? To be fair, if I am just looking up a quick verse I probably do this as well, but not for in-depth study.
EDIT: Nevermind, it is way too early in the morning and I missed the humor completely.
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David
I read John's post to mean that he was pleased that five things he had experienced in Logos 7 were no longer the case in Logos 8
So reporting a positive experience.
Graham
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David,
That is John's point... humor... he misses having to wait etc.
John, I think you should be in marketing.
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Graham Criddle said:
David
I read John's post to mean that he was pleased that five things he had experienced in Logos 7 were no longer the case in Logos 8
So reporting a positive experience.
Graham
HAHAHAHAHAHA wow...... I need to go drink some COFFEEEEEEEEE!
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lol....love it! Especially the "using google to search the Bible instead of Logos" part
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