Workflow: what use beyond the basics?
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MJ I know at times it might not seem like it because we do sometimes have very different views on some things but I do respect your experience and commitment to teaching and equipping others. And FWIW I think more often than not FL should take on board and action your feedback more than they do. Thanks for fuether explaining your thoughts.
MJ. Smith said:doc said:You might be thinking about this differently to what I am MJ
Most of my thinking is biased by (a) 50 years in a university parish (b) an advanced degree in religious studies (c) an assumption that what Logos provides for Evangelicals will be of little use to myself as a Catholic. In testing, I've already made more workflows than Logos ... but most are not ready for prime time until the editor is beefed up a bit in what it can access.
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Cynthia just to add in case I gave you or anyone else the impression I was against the workflows, the concept is actually not anything new to Logos. I beta tested the same sort of thing in Libronix and advocated for them but Logos walked away from them until now.
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doc said:
Cynthia just to add in case I gave you or anyone else the impression I was against the workflows, the concept is actually not anything new to Logos. I beta tested the same sort of thing in Libronix and advocated for them but Logos walked away from them until now.
Good Morning Doc! You're up early!
I think perhaps we are both being misunderstood. I don't think that workflow is the "end-all-be-all" to solve the problem of Bible illiteracy! I think workflow is hands down, the very best step I've seen Logos take in assisting the new user to not only get their feet wet in the program but also whet their appetite for studying God's Word.
I feel like you're jumping the gun a little bit in saying that workflow does nothing to guide the user away from using them. (and that's implying that workflow is a crutch tool for only the new user). I disagree for my reasons stated a few posts back, but I also believe that because FL has stated that they are working on adding to workflow, and because people on the board or individuals like MJ and dare I even say--me--will be sharing workflows, the potential is great. I see workflow as the instrument to lead the user in study very much like I see myself as the instrument to lead my students in their study. My goal is not to have them in my class forever. My goal is to teach them, step by step, and push them until they can do it on their own and even teach another. Workflow, in my view, has the potential to be the teacher in a powerful program that in the past left the student alone in the classroom with very little direction.
And here's the thing. Workflow is ONE tool in this program. Do you really think a new user is going to spend their hard earned money and ONLY click on workflow and nothing else. No! Workflow will be their teacher and show them how to use the tools so that they rely on the teacher less and less.
And I might add this too. I don't NEED workflow. Many power users on here don't NEED workflow. Yet I believe workflow will be a tool that is simple enough for the new user but powerful enough for the seasoned, power user. It may not be right now, but I know that as FL continues to build on the potential of workflow, we will see that happen.
So, I'm off to Jamaica for my friend's 50th birthday party. I wish you all a great weekend!
P.S. Mark, I did see those videos and I agree...it is the very first time that FL has created a tool in their program that actually TEACHES the user how to study. It's very exciting!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:
But now, for the first time since I've been on this forum (and that's a reflection of me, not you), I understand a little bit of the heart in your "individual part" and what that joint supplies, and it's rather beautiful.
I like this. Well said, and thanks for sharing the insight you found in Ephesians... I think rightly presented. And I am thankful for all of you- Cynthia, I found you in the forum pleading with FL to improve the UI of the program (and I feel this time they actually listened!), and Denise, her wisdom is above my head most of the time, but it never stops me from reading and re-reading her posts to mine out the gems. MJ's scholarship is attractive to my inner scholar spirit. I also appreciate Mark Barnes, Rosie, Graham, and so many others...
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doc said:
<snip />
All I am saying is the workflows give no direction as to how they can take their study to the next level.
<snip />
One feature of Workflows that's easily overlooked is the additional content hiding behind the "More >>" link. Depending on the editorial content for the Workflow step, you may there find:
- Desired Outcomes: what benefits will I get from this study step?
- Further Reading: additional background content related to the step
- Explanation: more on the mechanics of the particular step
Not all steps have this additional content. We put it behind "More >>" to keep the interface from being cluttered, and because you may have less need for keeping these aids visible as you use a Workflow more.
The Further Reading section in particular is intended to help users broaden their understanding and improve their study.
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Michael S. said:Cynthia in Florida said:
But now, for the first time since I've been on this forum (and that's a reflection of me, not you), I understand a little bit of the heart in your "individual part" and what that joint supplies, and it's rather beautiful.
I like this. Well said, and thanks for sharing the insight you found in Ephesians... I think rightly presented. And I am thankful for all of you- Cynthia, I found you in the forum pleading with FL to improve the UI of the program (and I feel this time they actually listened!), and Denise, her wisdom is above my head most of the time, but it never stops me from reading and re-reading her posts to mine out the gems. MJ's scholarship is attractive to my inner scholar spirit. I also appreciate Mark Barnes, Rosie, Graham, and so many others...
Thank you Michael!
lile you, I appreciate the insight and assistance from so many people.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Sean Boisen said:doc said:
<snip />
All I am saying is the workflows give no direction as to how they can take their study to the next level.
<snip />
One feature of Workflows that's easily overlooked is the additional content hiding behind the "More >>" link. Depending on the editorial content for the Workflow step, you may there find:
- Desired Outcomes: what benefits will I get from this study step?
- Further Reading: additional background content related to the step
- Explanation: more on the mechanics of the particular step
Not all steps have this additional content. We put it behind "More >>" to keep the interface from being cluttered, and because you may have less need for keeping these aids visible as you use a Workflow more.
The Further Reading section in particular is intended to help users broaden their understanding and improve their study.
thank you Sean for the explanation as to why you set it the way you did. Very helpful.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Sean Boisen said:doc said:
<snip />
All I am saying is the workflows give no direction as to how they can take their study to the next level.
<snip />
One feature of Workflows that's easily overlooked is the additional content hiding behind the "More >>" link. Depending on the editorial content for the Workflow step, you may there find:
- Desired Outcomes: what benefits will I get from this study step?
- Further Reading: additional background content related to the step
- Explanation: more on the mechanics of the particular step
Not all steps have this additional content. We put it behind "More >>" to keep the interface from being cluttered, and because you may have less need for keeping these aids visible as you use a Workflow more.
The Further Reading section in particular is intended to help users broaden their understanding and improve their study.
These is all good stuff Sean and a step in the right direction but I don't see the workflows actually showing the user that the passage guide, or word study guide etc are actually behind the guides. The workflows are a big step in the right direction, don't take my comments to mean otherwise, I'm just throwing out the challenge of how can you move beyond feeding a person fish to them actually being able to fish for themselves.
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Cynthia in Florida said:doc said:
Cynthia just to add in case I gave you or anyone else the impression I was against the workflows, the concept is actually not anything new to Logos. I beta tested the same sort of thing in Libronix and advocated for them but Logos walked away from them until now.
Good Morning Doc! You're up early!
I think perhaps we are both being misunderstood. I don't think that workflow is the "end-all-be-all" to solve the problem of Bible illiteracy! I think workflow is hands down, the very best step I've seen Logos take in assisting the new user to not only get their feet wet in the program but also whet their appetite for studying God's Word.
I feel like you're jumping the gun a little bit in saying that workflow does nothing to guide the user away from using them. (and that's implying that workflow is a crutch tool for only the new user). I disagree for my reasons stated a few posts back, but I also believe that because FL has stated that they are working on adding to workflow, and because people on the board or individuals like MJ and dare I even say--me--will be sharing workflows, the potential is great. I see workflow as the instrument to lead the user in study very much like I see myself as the instrument to lead my students in their study. My goal is not to have them in my class forever. My goal is to teach them, step by step, and push them until they can do it on their own and even teach another. Workflow, in my view, has the potential to be the teacher in a powerful program that in the past left the student alone in the classroom with very little direction.
And here's the thing. Workflow is ONE tool in this program. Do you really think a new user is going to spend their hard earned money and ONLY click on workflow and nothing else. No! Workflow will be their teacher and show them how to use the tools so that they rely on the teacher less and less.
And I might add this too. I don't NEED workflow. Many power users on here don't NEED workflow. Yet I believe workflow will be a tool that is simple enough for the new user but powerful enough for the seasoned, power user. It may not be right now, but I know that as FL continues to build on the potential of workflow, we will see that happen.
So, I'm off to Jamaica for my friend's 50th birthday party. I wish you all a great weekend!
P.S. Mark, I did see those videos and I agree...it is the very first time that FL has created a tool in their program that actually TEACHES the user how to study. It's very exciting!
Good morning Cynthia, I up early probably because I'm in a different time zone as I'm in Australia. I think we both want the same thing, but a just coming from very different starting points. As I said to Sean I just want to see people move beyond being fed the fish to knowing how to fish for themselves and I'm probably too passionate about that and what it all to happen yesterday. I want it easy for people to start with the program but I want the program to not just grow with them but play a part in growing them in their bible study methodology. People like you and MJ play an important practical part in that too with face to face, and other methods of interaction.
Enjoy the Birthday celebrations in Jamaica with your friend for their special milestone.
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Hi doc
One of the steps in the sermon prep workflow (I think, I’m doing this from memory!) is comparing the text being studied in different translations usng the Text Comparison Tool.
So the person running the workflow may see the value of this particular Tool and so be encouraged to use it for themselves on other occasions,
Is this the sort of thing you are calling for?
If so, does it just need to be made more explicit or is something else needed?
Graham
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Graham Criddle said:
Hi doc
One of the steps in the sermon prep workflow (I think, I’m doing this from memory!) is comparing the text being studied in different translations usng the Text Comparison Tool.
So the person running the workflow may see the value of this particular Tool and so be encouraged to use it for themselves on other occasions,
Is this the sort of thing you are calling for?
If so, does it just need to be made more explicit or is something else needed?
Graham
In this specific instance it does highlight a specific tool but that is because it is a tool that limited in focus to one task, comparing bible versions which is a step in other workflows too such as Basic Bible Study, but most of the other steps in Basic Bible Study, as an example pull into the workflow sections of the passage guide without a new users being aware that all of these sections they are using in each step all actually come from the passage guide.
Workflows are almost there but just seem to not take that last step in introducing a user to the full power of the software. Some user will park themselves with Workflows as their go to methodology for using the program and that's fine, if it gets them into studying the scriptures but others will want to deep diver into the software but the workflow doesn't quite show them where the deep waters are that they can dive into.
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doc said:
These is all good stuff Sean and a step in the right direction but I don't see the workflows actually showing the user that the passage guide, or word study guide etc are actually behind the guides. The workflows are a big step in the right direction, don't take my comments to mean otherwise, I'm just throwing out the challenge of how can you move beyond feeding a person fish to them actually being able to fish for themselves.
I like how you're thinking, doc. Specifically, we agree that workflows have a potential to introduce users to new sections they didn't know existed and to show them the value therein.
You're right that the workflows we have authored so far don't explicitly mention that these sections comes from guides. Our current attempt at this is the "Open this content in a new panel" button on the top right of the section in the workflow. This button will launch the single section guide. This approach may be too subtle and we might adjust the approach as we go.
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Alan Palmer (Faithlife) said:doc said:
These is all good stuff Sean and a step in the right direction but I don't see the workflows actually showing the user that the passage guide, or word study guide etc are actually behind the guides. The workflows are a big step in the right direction, don't take my comments to mean otherwise, I'm just throwing out the challenge of how can you move beyond feeding a person fish to them actually being able to fish for themselves.
I like how you're thinking, doc. Specifically, we agree that workflows have a potential to introduce users to new sections they didn't know existed and to show them the value therein.
You're right that the workflows we have authored so far don't explicitly mention that these sections comes from guides. Our current attempt at this is the "Open this content in a new panel" button on the top right of the section in the workflow. This button will launch the single section guide. This approach may be too subtle and we might adjust the approach as we go.
All this conversation with DOC and I didn’t understand THAT was his concern! And that’s why I’m much better in the classroom! LOL. Thanks Alan for flushing that out, and it IS exciting to see that FL is working hard at growing the workflow tool. My concern is—specifically now that I’ve had an entire weekend away from the board and I see all the Workflow suggestions on the forum— that workflow will become another tool that becomes so complicated, the new user will be forgotten. Please keep that in mind as you morp the tool.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Hey Alan,
In this snippet you say,
Our current attempt at this is the "Open this content in a new panel" button on the top right of the section in the workflow. This button will launch the single section guide.
I'm looking in each of the sections and don't see what you are referencing?
Can you help?
Lane
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Lane McKay said:
In this snippet you say,
Our current attempt at this is the "Open this content in a new panel" button on the top right of the section in the workflow. This button will launch the single section guide.
I'm looking in each of the sections and don't see what you are referencing?
Can you help?
I think Alan was referring to this...
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Yes, thank you, Richard. That is what I meant.
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Found it.
Thank you to both of you.
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Richard Wardman said:Lane McKay said:
In this snippet you say,
Our current attempt at this is the "Open this content in a new panel" button on the top right of the section in the workflow. This button will launch the single section guide.
I'm looking in each of the sections and don't see what you are referencing?
Can you help?
I think Alan was referring to this...
That DEFINITELY needs to be more obvious!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:
That DEFINITELY needs to be more obvious!
Maybe a simple label?
"Open Literary Typing Guide" or something like that.
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Richard Wardman said:Cynthia in Florida said:
That DEFINITELY needs to be more obvious!
Maybe a simple label?
"Open Literary Typing Guide" or something like that.
Agreed!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:
I am not computer savvy at all, but when I was in the inductive Bible study workflow, I clicked around at bit and after a little while, decided that as an inductive Bible study teacher, I would like my own Inductive workflow to be set up differently. Without even looking at a video or how to guide, I was immediately able to start building my own workflow, which will take a while but that's okay as I plan on sharing it with my class students because, for the very first time ever, I feel I can actually recommend Logos to them.
Cynthia,
I started with Libronix when my son entered Phoenix Seminary in 2001 (or 2002). So I am a seasoned user of the software. I just upgraded to Logos 8, but have not investigated all the nooks and crannies. I searched the forum for information on the new workflow feature just to get a flavor for what it would provide. That search led me to this thread.
I am encouraged by your enthusiasm. Two usage cases come to mind. First, my wife really likes inductive Bible study. I suspect she might benefit from your modified workflows for inductive study. Are you able to share these in the Faithlife cloud?
Second, I have "dodged a bullet" this year. I developed an odd medical condition in March which required minor brain surgery followed by a month in the hospital and a year of rehab. During neurological testing, the neurologist pointed out to me that I should be mindful of my mental limitations (even though I am almost completely recovered). She brought to my mind how my father, in his waning years, went from being fairly proficient with his computer to having to give it up. It occurs to me that workflows will give me the opportunity to document my current research methodology and leave me with templates which will gently guide me as my cognitive function fades. Perhaps they can extend the usefulness of Logos for me. Thus, I will be training . . . myself. [:)]
So a thanks to all who have participated in this thread. I expect to spend some fun hours figuring out how to master workflows.
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I want to stand up for all the developers working hours on Logos Bible Software. Logos 8 is the best yet and all the new features are worth the effort. You provide easy solutions for the most difficult tasks. With each upgrade you surprise me with the way you think. I'm talking as an ordinary user that really knows the capability of his computer and software.
While reading some entries in this thread and other threads I decided to share a Workflow "Step 2: Overview (Reference) Workflow" in unfinished state. There's a lot of comments without actual samples in these threads. I feel that I can't comment if I don't provide. I just want to show what you are capable of doing with workflows if you set your mind to it.
I'm designing a workflow with the future of Workflows in mind. I believe that Workflows can do and will do much more than the avoiding user thinks. I'm discovering the power of workflows on the go.
Logos is slowly becoming the most powerful affordable Bible Software anyone can purchase. If there's one thing I discovered about Logos Software over the years it is that the software is limited by my creativity and experience. I'm afraid that a lot of people buy Logos without really investing time to master it. A Logos advanced user need to know not only their Logos Bible Software but how to use the computer as a package to power boost the Software.
Some easy thoughts on workflows: I was wondering for instance if Workflows can create other new documents as there was no obvious solution. I wanted to be able to teach a user to do things in Logos and focus on the task at hand. By trying out workflows I discovered that it is possible to create a new document with a link.
Some more advanced thoughts: I recently duplicated the Expository Sermon Preparation Workflow for personal customization after reading that someone said it is impossible. I only share this possibility to silence those advanced users that give negative comments on features they did not master or tried to improve themselves. This duplication wasn't done with out of the box features but with really deep knowledge of the Software and the Framework it's running on. I think that there is some advanced users out there that doesn't want to share their secret knowledge because it's a risky business.
I think most users want the easy way out by just clicking a button. I can visualize all the buttons cluttering valuable space to accommodate all requests. The day that happen I'm back to paper. If we just want buttons, are we really advanced users? The power of Logos isn't in the buttons, it's in the model of "cross-referencing" features and keeping features modulated behind the scenes to maximize the speed of development and possibilities of improvement on capabilities. If you don't understand this "cross-referencing" you will struggle to master the software. To better understand this spend some time this holiday to learn something about MVVM (Model-View-ViewModel). They are going to surprise us all in the near future. They see things that we as users don't. They actually designed software that a beginner to advanced user can use fruitfully.
Someone once told me when I was young that "with computers the sky is the limit". I did not reached that limit yet.
At the end, I do not consider myself as an advanced user, I'd rather consider myself as a beginner, and I think that this is the solution to all our struggles with Logos Bible Software Features. If you think something is impossible, you reached your limit, not the software's limit. If I'm considered an advanced user I actually want to keep it a secret.
Did I really pressed this Post button on these thoughts? Oh no [:$]
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