Help me not RETURN my Logos Platinum 4 - TERRIBLE download/design experience so far.
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Jeremy said:
A missionary on the mission field doesn't need a fast internet connection to run Logos, but one is probably needed to install Logos. Remember this process only needs to be done once.
Speaking as a missionary on the field, this is true. However, there are a few big problems:
1. The last media disk is based on 4.0a which is seven months old. 4.0a was argueably missing many core features and has had many bugs fixed since then. The updates are multiple gigabytes and in many missions locations, this is a physical impossibility.
2. Even if you decide you are happy to run an old version of Logos 4, let's say you want to add a small book to your library that you need for your work in the field. By small, I mean many of the titles that are 10mb or so, using dialup internet (albeit slow). The current architecture makes this impossible because you cannot download any new purchases until you download all the updates first which are gigabytes large if you are still at media DVD version 4.0a.
3. Even if there was a current media DVD disk with 4.0c, keep in mind that the resources that are on this disk are what comes standard in the Platinum edition (at least that is what I have been told). That means if you buy any of the other download only stuff like the new Zondervan materials, the only way you can get them is downloading gigabytes of information.
This is a very big problem and creates a large digital divide for missions workers.
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Philip Spitzer said:
I can think of several reasons for this. First, Logos has over 10,000 books. My library of 2,200ish is about 10 gigs or so I think. In order for this to work they would have to burn people's libraries individually to disc or put the entire library in every mailing.
The entire resource library of 10 gigs will fit on three DVDs. Do a fresh burn every four months and offer a subscription/one off purchase service. I guarantee you people in the field will gladly pay for these if this is the only way they can stay current. The software industry has been doing stuff like this for years.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
The entire resource library of 10 gigs will fit on three DVDs. Do a fresh burn every four months and offer a subscription/one off purchase service. I guarantee you people in the field will gladly pay for these if this is the only way they can stay current. The software industry has been doing stuff like this for years.
My library of 2200 resources is 10 gigs. With over 10,000 titles total that would be 15 dvds, assuming what I don't have is comparable size wise to what I do have. Loading each of those resources, and then the computer figuring out which ones it needs to transfer and which it does not, would be a very tedious experience.
the other option is to have a DVD or two with the most used resources on it to alleviate some of the downloading, but that doesn't seem like a good solution to me.
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Quick notes. I'm surprised by how many responses this thread has generated. I do appreciate all the responses - including one from Bob. Not often does the president of a company respond in a forum. Thanks also for all who encouraged me to stay the course.
A final notes and then I'll just read any further responses:
1. Dan from Logos did call this morning to check up on how the install went. Appreciate the quick response.
In our conversation, Dan did address most of my concerns. One of the challenges he noted about DVD updates is that sometimes, with upgraded editions of 4, the content of the library also need to be updated . This precludes sending out just the DATA on a DVD because even the data is not static as the software changes. Though I have a technical background, I admit that I am not aware of this necessity. So there are some technical difficulties to sending out even the content on DVD.
He also noted that burning in house on double density DVDS (8 + gigs per DVD if I remember corrrectly) took too long which is why they press the DVDs.
2. The indexing of my Platinum plus a few resources finished in less than two hours so I was surprised at how fast it went given that some reported overnight indexing. I'm not sure if everything in my resource loaded but I assume so .
This shows me that there is a considerable RANGE of download and indexing time depending on connect speed and equipment. Thus, per my earlier note - if Logos can give a more accurate up front information, that will prevent in accurate expectations which is what caused my initial concerns.
3. The digital divide for those overseas with slow connections then becomes an issue which I'd still love to see a physical solution.
4. Finally, in rereading my posting, I realized that I was very pointed in my observation. I hope that I was not unduly harsh in my tone. I stand by the issues I raised but also ask anyone who think that I was unduly harsh in tone to let me know.
Blessings,
UL
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Ultralight said:
4. Finally, in rereading my posting, I realized that I was very pointed in my observation. I hope that I was not unduly harsh in my tone. I stand by the issues I raised but also ask anyone who think that I was unduly harsh in tone to let me know.
I admit I haven't reread it, but I remember thinking it came across more passionate then harsh. I had no problem with it.
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It took me 4 days and 4 nights to download Logos4 Leaders Library. Slow internet connection in Albania. I just bore with it till it was done. I do appreciate that you don't lose everything if your internet connection fails or you need to reboot. It would be helpful if the button said Pause download rather than cancel download.
I have, I think, a 3 gig memory on Windows Vista. Logos 4 is a bit slow, but that's OK.
I didn't find the info until after I had ordered it that it needs lots of memory and a fast processor - i.e. I can't use L4 on my older computers. That could have been a problem if I didn't have a new computer. Also I had no idea about the size of the download till I started downloading. I think the info should be put somewhere very clear, so that it would be impossible to order L4 without seeing it.
Now I'm very happy with L4, despite minor irritations with slow response and notices that it has stopped responding. It responds again if you give it a minute or so. Tech support has been helpful when I have needed it, as have forums. And I still have L3 on my old mini laptop for travelling.
I would like to know what I am downloading in updates, and maybe be able to choose to download a resource but leave an update till later. At the moment I have an internet limit of 2 GB a month, and am trying to decide whether to pay to increase that. Main concern being Logos mega downloads!
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
The software industry has been doing stuff like this for years.
Yes, but a lot of things the software industry has been doing for years are becoming obsolete. I think all the issues on both sides have been well discussed in this thread. The current situation is not good for those in the field without ready fast Internet access, but an alternative solution (essentially going back to the "unlock" method that was used in 3.0 and ditched for a variety of reasons -- mainly complexity for users and support costs) would not be good for most everyone else. Perhaps some hybrid solution could be cooked up, but it would take development time away from stabilizing the existing code and continuing to bring the 4.0 feature set up to the level many users expected it to be at when it first shipped. And it would probably cause Logos to cost more all around. If those who want the DVD option are willing to shoulder the increased cost by themselves, maybe it could work. But unfortunately those tend to be the folks with the least amount of disposable income (missionaries). Maybe it could be considered a cost of supporting missionaries in the field that others would be willing to take upon themselves...
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Rosie Perera said:
Maybe it could be considered a cost of supporting missionaries in the field that others would be willing to take upon themselves...
Someone with a good internet connection could run a copy of Logos under the missionary's ID to download the latest software and resources, then they could backup the Logos install directory to a DVD or two, and send it to the missionary who would then restore the directory over his current install.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Rosie Perera said:
Yes, but a lot of things the software industry has been doing for years are becoming obsolete.
It is only obsolete where downloading Logos 4 isn't a problem. There are parts of the world still using older, but reliable technologies for now.
But I also appreciate that the world where good access is does need to move on. In no way would I suggest that L4 needs to go back to the L3 architecture.
[quote] If those who want the DVD option are willing to shoulder the increased cost by themselves, maybe it could work.
It will cost and what has been voiced on here by others (including myself) is that we are willing to pay as this is the only way to use L4 where high speed connectivity is a problem.
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Todd Phillips said:Rosie Perera said:
Maybe it could be considered a cost of supporting missionaries in the field that others would be willing to take upon themselves...
Someone with a good internet connection could run a copy of Logos under the missionary's ID to download the latest software and resources, then they could backup the Logos install directory to a DVD or two, and send it to the missionary who would then restore the directory over his current install.
Todd,
I'm sure you are aware of our License Agreement, but I want to make sure that everyone else is aware of what our License Agreement says. If someone does send the missionary their ID's, resources and software, whoever does that would have to make sure to remove the missionary's licenses from their computer as it is outside the grounds of our License Agreement to have more than one person use the licenses. Specifically, our license agreement says: "The license goes with the user. Every user
must purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a
laptop and they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on
both for your personal use - because the license goes with the
user." Can you purchase one package and have two people use it? No.
The license goes with the user. The license is a single user license."More about the license agreement can be found here.
Deborah Mickens
Logos Bible Software, Marketing
dmickens@logos.comDeborah Mickens
Logos Bible Software, Marketing
dmickens@logos.com0 -
Deborah Mickens said:
I'm sure you are aware of our License Agreement, but I want to make sure that everyone else is aware of what our License Agreement says. If someone does send the missionary their ID's, resources and software, whoever does that would have to make sure to remove the missionary's licenses from their computer as it is outside the grounds of our License Agreement to have more than one person use the licenses. Specifically, our license agreement says: "The license goes with the user. Every user
must purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a
laptop and they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on
both for your personal use - because the license goes with the
user." Can you purchase one package and have two people use it? No.
The license goes with the user. The license is a single user license."Sorry, I should have qualified my statement. I'm not suggesting that the other person actually use the software on the machine with the network--they just generate an install for the purpose of shipping it off. It might even be that that machine is the missionary's home computer, and the one he takes with him to the field is his laptop.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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This brings up a question I have. If you aren't connected to the internet and only get L4 through CDs, how will Logos remember your preferences and settings? Does it store them on your computer somewhere?
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Jeremy said:
This brings up a question I have. If you aren't connected to the internet and only get L4 through CDs, how will Logos remember your preferences and settings? Does it store them on your computer somewhere?
Of course. The Logos server is only backup, not primary.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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[quote]We host our files at Amazon.com's servers, which we don't control and
which sometimes have dramatically different performance (time of day,
other loads from other customers, etc.... ?? we don't really know why)So, I hate to ask the obvious question--but if you can't control the user's experience, and this specific part of your service is so critical to your user's experience, then why are you outsourcing it? Is the money you're saving really worth the problems your users are experiencing?
:-)
Russ
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Russ White said:
So, I hate to ask the obvious question--but if you can't control the user's experience, and this specific part of your service is so critical to your user's experience, then why are you outsourcing it? Is the money you're saving really worth the problems your users are experiencing?
I think that if you had experience running a server farm you might want to restate this question. I have assumed that Logos outsourced because they recognized running a server farm was beyond their expertise. My frame of reference - the Pacific Northwest internet hub after Boeing ceased to host it. I would be far more uncomfortable with the system architecture for Logos 4 if Logos ran their own servers.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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[quote]I think that if you had experience running a server farm you might want
to restate this question. I have assumed that Logos outsourced because
they recognized running a server farm was beyond their expertise.You're assuming I've not had that experience. Bad assumption. But you're diving in the wrong direction, IMHO. My line of reasoning would be:
1. My customers rely on something I must outsource.
2. Their experience is apparently horrible in this regard (based on the replies on this thread--some people taking days to install the software).
3. Hmmm... What can I do about this? I have three choices, it seems.
3a. Don't outsource this, even if that means hiring someone with the experience and expertise in running the solution in-house, or some other arrangement.
3b. Rethink whether or not I want to go in an architectural direction that forces me to outsource this.
3c. Find some way to avoid the problem. Here I think there are some suggestions on the thread that could be helpful.
I'm not trying to beat up on Logos here (I am, after all, a huge proponent of Logos at my Seminary and Church), but it does seem like one common problem people encounter is with the synchronization pieces on install.To state that you don't know why something isn't running the way it should--something that touches your customer base in such a major way--and that you can't necessarily fix it--well, it just doesn't sound good, no matter why it might be that way. To go back to the original quote:
[quote]We host our files at Amazon.com's servers, which we don't control...
:-)
Russ
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Lol...welcome to the world of cutting edge, highly efficient, bible software.
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Russ White said:
You're assuming I've not had that experience. Bad assumption.
My apologies; you'd given no indication of experience so you are correct that I had simply assumed.
Russ White said:2. Their experience is apparently horrible in this regard (based on the replies on this thread--some people taking days to install the software).
3. Hmmm... What can I do about this? I have three choices, it seems.
I'd take a modified 3c approach:
3d. Some of my users,a small but significant number, have a horrible experience. How do I identify the factors common to those users and correct or minimize the effects of those factors on their experience?
and add a 4th point:
4. Can I design performance and stability into the product earlier in the development cycle?
We need to remember that the group that we see on the forums is not an unbiased statistical sample
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I'd take a modified 3c approach:
3d. Some of my users,a small but significant number, have a horrible experience. How do I identify the factors common to those users and correct or minimize the effects of those factors on their experience?
and add a 4th point:
4. Can I design performance and stability into the product earlier in the development cycle?
We need to remember that the group that we see on the forums is not an unbiased statistical sample
In a sense, your final point casts a shadow on your point 3d - we, on these forums, don't know what the overall total of customers who had, at some point, a horrible experience with Logos4. We know that not a few of the forum users have reported serious difficulties - some, like myself, overcame them and now use Logos4 more and more (although some may still use Logos3 as well) and others have given up on Logos4 and gone back to Logos3.Only Logos' customer support know how many users have reported serious issues (assuming they identify such stats)... The fact that some still report 20 minute+ wait times when phoning for support suggests that the Logos support team is still handling more support calls than they can manage which, after 7 months(?) of Logos4 being available is a bit concerning...
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Andy Bell said:
The fact that some still report 20 minute+ wait times when phoning for support suggests that the Logos support team is still handling more support calls than they can manage which, after 7 months(?) of Logos4 being available is a bit concerning...
I doubt that those calls are all from people who have owned Logos 4 for 7 months. The majority of them are most likely to be new or recent users.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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The main point here being that we are ignorant...ignorant of a lot of background on these issues.
We don't have the statistical data on tech support calls, disgruntaled users, happy users, nor any of the overview that Logos has...so we tend to view the issue from our own "forumite" perspective...if we are a bit disappointed...we notice that there are a lot of other posts that are similar....so we get the "yellow volkswagen" syndrome..
And even after all that we continue to act like we have a well rounded picture of things... [:$]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Jonathan Burke said:Andy Bell said:
The fact that some still report 20 minute+ wait times when phoning for support suggests that the Logos support team is still handling more support calls than they can manage which, after 7 months(?) of Logos4 being available is a bit concerning...
I doubt that those calls are all from people who have owned Logos 4 for 7 months. The majority of them are most likely to be new or recent users.
Indeed, and that's part of the point I was trying to make - the issues may not have gone away so new customers may be running into similar problems to those that existed at the start.
Then again, managing customer expectation (or failing to do so) is a major factor in customer satisfaction. Being told upfront in unequivocal terms that buying package X will result in a download of Y gb followed by an index lasting several hours would possibly increase customer satisfaction.I'm not saying this info is not available but it should be very conspicuous so that the customer realises that buying today will, probably, not result in using the software today...
And I know I've said this before and will probably say it many more times - giving the customer the ability to control the download of resources, to limit the first download to the user's choice of 'favourites' for example, would help someone get up and running quickly. The less used resources can then be downloaded over night and the never used resources are never downloaded. (I have made this suggestion ('pre-hide' resources) on the user voice pages) and I think it would make a big difference...
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Andy Bell said:Jonathan Burke said:Andy Bell said:
The fact that some still report 20 minute+ wait times when phoning for support suggests that the Logos support team is still handling more support calls than they can manage which, after 7 months(?) of Logos4 being available is a bit concerning...
I doubt that those calls are all from people who have owned Logos 4 for 7 months. The majority of them are most likely to be new or recent users.
Indeed, and that's part of the point I was trying to make - the issues may not have gone away so new customers may be running into similar problems to those that existed at the start.
Then again, managing customer expectation (or failing to do so) is a major factor in customer satisfaction. Being told upfront in unequivocal terms that buying package X will result in a download of Y gb followed by an index lasting several hours would possibly increase customer satisfaction.I'm not saying this info is not available but it should be very conspicuous so that the customer realises that buying today will, probably, not result in using the software today...
Managing customer expectation would probably take care of a large percentage of the calls and dissatisfaction, but what troubles me more is that there still remain serious problems that some number of users are running into where they cannot even succesfully install. That should almost never happen on brand new software, unless the user hasn't got the computer specs that are required for the product or there is something faulty with their hard disk or something. That there are workarounds (if one calls Customer Service) is hardly consolation. If a person spends a couple hundred dollars (minimum) on some software, it should work right out of the box, and the installation process should be relatively easy and mostly hands-off, even if it involves a lot of waiting.
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Rosie Perera said:
Managing customer expectation would probably take care of a large percentage of the calls and dissatisfaction, but what troubles me more is that there still remain serious problems that some number of users are running into where they cannot even succesfully install. That should almost never happen on brand new software, unless the user hasn't got the computer specs that are required for the product or there is something faulty with their hard disk or something. That there are workarounds (if one calls Customer Service) is hardly consolation. If a person spends a couple hundred dollars (minimum) on some software, it should work right out of the box, and the installation process should be relatively easy and mostly hands-off, even if it involves a lot of waiting.
I couldn't agree more - the actual installation should be a breeze. I've never had as much trouble installing a program as I did with Logos 4 and, as an IT professional, I install a lot of software.
As Logos provides many gb of resources, the large download is inevitable. However, a plain vanilla base package install (with no other resources involved) could provide a pre-built index, with a quick check post download to check that this index matches the installed resources. And there ought to be a way of adding extra resources to the index without needing a total reindex (although such functionality may exist?)
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Andy Bell said:
Indeed, and that's part of the point I was trying to make - the issues may not have gone away so new customers may be running into similar problems to those that existed at the start.
I was thinking more about the fact that new users of any software typically have a learning curve to go through as they become accustomed to the product. From the many threads I've seen on this forum, the most common issues new users have are a result of unfamiliarity with the product rather than issues with the software. I had the same experience myself. Hardware issues are also not uncommon on this forum. I don't think it's about still outstanding problems with the actual software.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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I had no problem installing Logos4, except the shock of seeing I had about 7 gigs to download, so 4 days to wait before I could use it! It did refuse to open at one stage, but customer support mailed me how to sort that one out. At the moment it's being very slow loading my 2 layouts: Reading, with lots of books open in separate tabs in one window, and Bible study, with 2 windows and various tabs. They take a minute or 2 to open sometimes. It sometimes announces that Logos 4 has stopped responding, but that's a lie - it's just like my dog - takes its time to decide to obey!
I keep discovering exciting new features of Logos 4. Were I in America I should probably try to get to a camp, but I'm not, so choose to manage without.
Incidentally, Moe, what about putting your Logos 4 manuals into Logos format to save us foreigners the expense of postage. I'd probably buy them if I could download them!
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I just re-installed L4 from scratch after a format.
it was a breeze. i worked on my laptop while it downloaded all of the resources that I accidentally zapped...
That took about 6 hours...then It indexed for about 3 hours...I was still able to use my laptop....
all is well...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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In about 10 installs that I can count of Logos 4, I have not had any problems
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
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I am having my very first experience of indexing taking more than just a few hours (4 or thereabouts on my laptop). It ran overnight last night and by this morning still said it had 64 hours left (earlier yesterday it had said it was "only" 19 hours or something). I'm in transit in airports today and running on battery a lot, so I've had to pause it to avoid draining my battery. I don't know why it's taking so long this time. Nothing else has changed with my installation other than updating to 4.0d Beta 1.
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Rosie Perera said:
Nothing else has changed with my installation other than updating to 4.0d Beta 1.
The full index 4.0d Beta performed on my desktop was a little quicker than under 4.0c. You should get a better idea what is happening from the logos4Indexer.log.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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