Conflict of Interest?

Some members of this forum are supportive of Logos Bible Software without receiving any special discounts or free software. This support is genuine —from the heart.

However, are some members of this forum who are extremely loyal to Logos receiving an undisclosed discount or free annual software that is not offered to the general public? If true, this is a conflict of interest. It is unethical to outwardly appear to offer impartial support when in reality, special gifts and/or special incentives are received that are not disclosed to the public.

Thank you.

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Liam Maguire

Hmmm... interesting. Out genuine interest, where would you draw the line? For example, should I state in my signature that I received a financial gift from Faithlife for Beta Testing and making contributions (Canvas documents) to Logos 8?

As I say, that is a genuine question. :-)

DMB

Maybe they need a free subscription to answer questions (if indeed). But I don't remember any Logosian promising genuine support. I remember several from the heart looks pretty angry supporters.

But I do wonder why people are so emotionally supportive. It's like a religion, and you'd better really like the new ESV!!

EDIT: Re-thinking, just seconds later, if indeed compensation (and if), then pretty much all of their opinions would be shot to hades and back. I doubt Logos would be that naive.

Into Grace

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1017977#Comment_1017977

I expect when Logos 8 and previous versions were released, a lot of hype came from those who receive secret discounts or free books not offered to the general public. If this is true, it is a disgrace.

Image going into a car dealership to look at cars and some "plants" who don't work for the company hype up how great particular vehicles are when in reality they are there because they are secretly rewarded with special incentives or gifts from the dealership not disclosed to you.

Of course, from the perspective of people who receive these special incentives and/or gifts to promote Logos, they do nothing wrong.

MWW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1017977#Comment_1017977

[;)]

[8o|]

I find the Faithlife forums very helpful and I am grateful for those who contribute. If there are some who do receive some kind of discount or free materials... I am completely good with that. I seriously doubt that anyone is getting rich doing this. Having visited these forums for the last 11 years I see no conspiracy.

Ahmama

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1017988#Comment_1017988

I find the Faithlife forums very helpful and I am grateful for those who contribute. If there are some who do receive some kind of discount or free materials... I am completely good with that.

This is precisely how I feel.

The only thing I've ever received from Faithlife is they sent me some notebook/journal with their branding on it in the mail--presumably because I spend way too much money on Logos resources (especially for someone who works in a completely different industry). I actually really don't like getting presents or anything unsolicited and I brought it back from the mailbox complaining: "Argh! Why do they have to send me this stuff. I really liked them until they started sending me stuff in the mail. I don't want to recycle it wastefully, but I don't need a notebook, and I don't really want to walk around with their logo..." at which point my wife was like "Oh that would be perfect for me at Monday Bible Study" and that shut me up. I guess presents aren't totally terrible

Leo Wee Fah

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1017988#Comment_1017988

I find the Faithlife forums very helpful and I am grateful for those who contribute. If there are some who do receive some kind of discount or free materials... I am completely good with that.

I totally agreed with you... and I am thankful to have them around[Y]

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018006#Comment_1018006

I consider myself spoiled rotten just being Logos user, but I don't sense any conflict about it. [8-|]

I also realize a very large portion of my library early on was paid for by the generosity of a believer who was led by God to gift me for the sake of the Kingdom. I will never ever forget that blessing.

James McAdams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1017974#Comment_1017974

Hmmm... interesting. Out genuine interest, where would you draw the line? For example, should I state in my signature that I received a financial gift from Faithlife for Beta Testing and making contributions (Canvas documents) to Logos 8?

As I say, that is a genuine question. :-)

If people are receiving specific benefits from Logos that aren't open to all customers and they post regularly, I'd want to know that - a badge similar to the Faithlife staffers would be my preference rather than a signature, just so it's uniform.

I'm really not suspicious of anyone's honesty - I don't suspect staff of being dishonest either - but the special nature of the relationship seems like it would be something to keep in mind.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018020#Comment_1018020

I don't have any inside information, but I do know that some members who are loyal to Faithlife also have had no problems expressing their dissatisfaction at times and highlighting areas where improvements are needed. So I don't believe that there is any discounts or products given in exchange for only positive reviews or support.

Faithlife has made many mistakes over the years that they admitted and apologized for. I also have seen them work hard at taking care of their customers and going above and beyond what I would expect. For example, more than once, the CEO/President of Faithlife (I may be wrong on the title), has posted their phone number for customers to call and speak directly with if needed.

This may be a little of topic, but I believe Faithlife to be honest and reputable company. I've been with them for over 20 years and I'm not going anywhere.

SineNomine

However, are some members of this forum who are extremely loyal to Logos receiving an undisclosed discount or free annual software that is not offered to the general public? If true, this is a conflict of interest. It is unethical to outwardly appear to offer impartial support when in reality, special gifts and/or special incentives are received that are not disclosed to the public.

What counts as "extremely loyal"? What kind of "loyalty" are we talking about? Off the top of my head, I can't think of any frequent posters on the forums who don't publicly question/challenge FL decisions, critique perceived flaws in the software/website, etc. Do those actions count as loyalty to FL or being supportive of it, or not?

I was a beta tester for 8, and as such I received a small FL credit for it. I assume I was invited to become one because of my activity on the forums, and I didn't know that I would be financially compensated for my involvement. Did the credit change my approach to posting about FL mistakes or my willingness to publicly challenge FL decisions that I think really need to be reversed? Check my posting history since L8 came out if you doubt my integrity.

As a final note, I don't appreciate aspersions cast on fellow members of the forum, or on FaithLife, of the kind being made in this thread. Real evidence of specific misbehaviour would be one thing, if such existed; serious allegations cast with a wide net and no evidence at all are another.

Rosie Perera

However, are some members of this forum who are extremely loyal to Logos receiving an undisclosed discount or free annual software that is not offered to the general public?

I've never heard of that happening, and I've been around for a long time and have been an MVP for a few years (stepped down due to lack of time), and have been in early on beta testing, and have over 28,000 resources, and was an early investor in the company (was a friend of Bob Pritchett's from Microsoft days). So if anyone had received undisclosed discounts or free annual software in order to be a booster for the company, it would have been me. But I didn't. Nor do I know of anyone else who did. One time, Bob personally gave me a packaged product out of their warehouse back in the old CD-ROM era (like in 1994 or something) when I visited the Logos HQ when it was in Kirkland or on Whidbey Island, as a gift from a friend and because I was an investor. There was no expectation from that gift that I would be a Logos cheerleader, and I've never shied away from voicing my critiques publicly.

Also, I've spent over $150,000 on Logos resources over the years, so I'm sure not benefiting from being given special deals that others can't get. They don't reward me with discounts for having been a loyal customer and spent so much money. In fact, I'm sometimes impulsive and buy stuff that has already released which I could have bought when it was in pre-pub and saved a bunch if I'd been more proactive. And I don't wait for sales but buy what I want when I notice it.

I think what you're seeing in the enthusiastic support of the company are just groupies who love Logos software and the company that makes it, and have been loyal users for years and love to promote it. They aren't getting any kickbacks from the company. It's just genuine support. Maybe their natural spiritual gifting is as evangelists, and they can't help but have that spill over into their use of bible software.

If true, this is a conflict of interest. It is unethical to outwardly appear to offer impartial support when in reality, special gifts and/or special incentives are received that are not disclosed to the public.

That is an awfully serious accusation, and I think the speculation which it is based on is unfounded. You say "If true" to hedge your bets, but then you launch into a very certain sounding accusation as if you're assuming it is true. And you bring it up again as if you know it's true:

I expect when Logos 8 and previous versions were released, a lot of hype came from those who receive secret discounts or free books not offered to the general public. If this is true, it is a disgrace.

Image going into a car dealership to look at cars and some "plants" who don't work for the company hype up how great particular vehicles are when in reality they are there because they are secretly rewarded with special incentives or gifts from the dealership not disclosed to you.

Of course, from the perspective of people who receive these special incentives and/or gifts to promote Logos, they do nothing wrong.

All that said, it is widely reported on these forums that anyone can call or email a sales rep and try to ask for a discount on a product or bundle. They can sometimes do that for you. I've purchased through a sales rep in the past, but frankly, even though they could occasionally get me a better price, it usually wasn't anything to write home about, maybe 3-5% off. But I'm so impulsive that these days I just buy directly from the website.

Maybe someone else could confirm whether sales reps are still available via phone or email and whether they will sometimes offer you a discount off the listed price if you ask for it. There's evidence (e.g., this post) that they do still have them, so it would be worth your trying. Again, it's nothing that isn't available to everyone if it still exists.

Steve Maling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018020#Comment_1018020

I'm with MWW, Josiah, and Leo Wee Fah. I'm also thankful not to have experiences that lead me to be suspicious of the Most Valuable Players who enrich my life in many ways.

May the peace of Christ be with us all!

Stephen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018006#Comment_1018006

I find the Faithlife forums very helpful and I am grateful for those who contribute. If there are some who do receive some kind of discount or free materials... I am completely good with that.

I totally agreed with you... and I am thankful to have them around

agreed

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1017992#Comment_1017992

The only thing I've ever received from Faithlife is they sent me some notebook/journal with their branding on it in the mail--presumably because I spend way too much money on Logos resources (especially for someone who works in a completely different industry). I actually really don't like getting presents or anything unsolicited and I brought it back from the mailbox complaining: "Argh! Why do they have to send me this stuff. I really liked them until they started sending me stuff in the mail. I don't want to recycle it wastefully, but I don't need a notebook, and I don't really want to walk around with their logo..." at which point my wife was like "Oh that would be perfect for me at Monday Bible Study" and that shut me up. I guess presents aren't totally terrible

Oh yes, that reminds me, that when I was an MVP, they did send me a package with a t-shirt and mug and some stickers with their logo, as a thank you for volunteering my time (I would spend 30+ hours a week at it some weeks, all unpaid; I benefited because I got to know the product better as I was helping other people figure out their issues; but eventually I realized I had other priorities in life and stepped down).

MVPs are not promoters of the company, but merely volunteer tech support folks -- the front lines of knowledgeable users offering help to other users to take the workload off the tech support specialists at Faithlife. Actually, sometimes I have felt that the company doesn't have enough tech support folks and they rely on the volunteer MVPs too much. And sometimes their tech support folks don't even know the product as well as some of the MVPs who have been using it for years do, so they'll throw up their arms and say post your question on the forums and see if you can get any help.

Anyway, I hope that isn't what Into Grace was referring to about special gifts or incentives. Yes, MVPs sometimes try to defend the company from critiques, but it's not because they are getting incentives from the company to do so. It's because their lives are easier if they aren't always dealing with angry customers, so if they can explain why something that a person doesn't like is the way it is (if there is a legitimate reason), then it makes for an easier interaction and ability to help that person. But MVPs are also free to voice their own opinions and do sometimes have frustrations with the software too.

James McAdams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018035#Comment_1018035

Just want to reiterate that my particular claim wasn’t made over suspicions of dishonesty or other ill motives - I just think it’s the sort of thing that should be public knowledge if it happens. I’ve seen far more scathing criticism from MVPs than I would offer - I’m a very happy customer, and I love the forums. Obviously Rosie’s post suggests pretty strongly that it doesn’t happen, while Liam’s comment suggests that he might have been given early access and compensated. If he’s getting a different experience in those ways from a regular customer, then that matters when people are comparing experiences. Not because of some kind of deceitfulness or ill motives, but because (for perfectly legitimate reasons) they are not receiving the same kind of experiences - their relationship is different.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018037#Comment_1018037

I also want to reiterate that people shouldn't be resentful over unfairness that they suspect might be happening if they have no evidence whatsoever that it's happening. They can create a conspiracy theory out of thin air that way, and get more people disgruntled whoh wouldn't otherwise have been.

I have plenty of beefs with Logos -- e.g., the troublesome level of bugginess (don't worry -- I report specific ones in hope they'll be fixed; it's just an overall impression I've gotten over the years of a deficiency in QA and relying too much of users to find the bugs), the sluggishness (their policy of code first optimize later rather than designing faster algorithms from the beginning), and the time-consuming drudgery of maintaining your library with tagging and collections so that the software it performs the searches you want it to well.

But my critiques do NOT include dishonesty or unethically manipulating user support through secret incentives.

Also remember Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Sometimes some users have a poorer experience of the product than others because of a bumbling roll-out of a new version or clumsy pricing of new features or whatever. It's human error. Not an intent to deceive. In my experience, Faithlife is an honorable company, and if they've messed something up and left someone unhappy, they will make it right.

Daniel Bender

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018023#Comment_1018023

However, are some members of this forum who are extremely loyal to Logos receiving an undisclosed discount or free annual software that is not offered to the general public? If true, this is a conflict of interest. It is unethical to outwardly appear to offer impartial support when in reality, special gifts and/or special incentives are received that are not disclosed to the public.

What counts as "extremely loyal"? What kind of "loyalty" are we talking about? Off the top of my head, I can't think of any frequent posters on the forums who don't publicly question/challenge FL decisions, critique perceived flaws in the software/website, etc. Do those actions count as loyalty to FL or being supportive of it, or not?

I was a beta tester for 8, and as such I received a small FL credit for it. I assume I was invited to become one because of my activity on the forums, and I didn't know that I would be financially compensated for my involvement. Did the credit change my approach to posting about FL mistakes or my willingness to publicly challenge FL decisions that I think really need to be reversed? Check my posting history since L8 came out if you doubt my integrity.

As a final note, I don't appreciate aspersions cast on fellow members of the forum, or on FaithLife, of the kind being made in this thread. Real evidence of specific misbehaviour would be one thing, if such existed; serious allegations cast with a wide net and no evidence at all are another.

Thank you for your post; I appreciate the way you addressed the OP. Grace and Peace

D Bender

Into Grace

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018046#Comment_1018046

I believe it is unethical for Logos to underhandedly reward certain loyal followers in this forum (as was confirmed) with gifts or special pricing under the radar. Some of you apparently believe this practice is acceptable and you have a right to your opinion as I do mine.

I believe the value of base packages and other products that Logos sells should be based on free market forces.

A few people in this forum appear to worship at the altar of Logos. Everything is fine until someone shares a concern about Logos business practices. People have a right to disagree with how Logos runs their business!

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1017986#Comment_1017986

I expect when Logos 8 and previous versions were released, a lot of hype came from those who receive secret discounts or free books not offered to the general public. If this is true, it is a disgrace.

Image going into a car dealership to look at cars and some "plants" who don't work for the company hype up how great particular vehicles are when in reality they are there because they are secretly rewarded with special incentives or gifts from the dealership not disclosed to you.

Of course, from the perspective of people who receive these special incentives and/or gifts to promote Logos, they do nothing wrong.

Hey, I even predicted Logos would name one of their packages “Logos Ultimate” and I’m not a member of any secret society that gets free software and books that the public can’t buy. What would be the point of us being the only ones having books that no one else has access to. Then again, maybe we’re not supposed to talk about it. Rule # 1 about the Logos “secret society” — “Don’t talk about the Logos secret society.” Rule # 2 about the Logos “secret society” — “Don’t talk about the Logos secret society.” If you have any questions about rule # 2, please refer back to rule # 1...😜😂😁

DAL

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018065#Comment_1018065

I expect when Logos 8 and previous versions were released, a lot of hype came from those who receive secret discounts or free books not offered to the general public. If this is true, it is a disgrace.

Image going into a car dealership to look at cars and some "plants" who don't work for the company hype up how great particular vehicles are when in reality they are there because they are secretly rewarded with special incentives or gifts from the dealership not disclosed to you.

Of course, from the perspective of people who receive these special incentives and/or gifts to promote Logos, they do nothing wrong.

Hey, I even predicted Logos would name one of their packages “Logos Ultimate” and I’m not a member of any secret society that gets free software and books that the public can’t buy. What would be the point of us being the only ones having books that no one else has access to. Then again, maybe we’re not supposed to talk about it. Rule # 1 about the Logos “secret society” — “Don’t talk about the Logos secret society.” Rule # 2 about the Logos “secret society” — “Don’t talk about the Logos secret society.” If you have any questions about rule # 2, please refer back to rule # 1...😜😂😁

DAL

Rule #3 - There is no Logos "secret society".

Into Grace

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018065#Comment_1018065

Hey, I even predicted Logos would name one of their packages “Logos Ultimate” and I’m not a member of any secret society that gets free software and books that the public can’t buy. What would be the point of us being the only ones having books that no one else has access to. Then again, maybe we’re not supposed to talk about it. Rule # 1 about the Logos “secret society” — “Don’t talk about the Logos secret society.” Rule # 2 about the Logos “secret society” — “Don’t talk about the Logos secret society.” If you have any questions about rule # 2, please refer back to rule # 1...😜😂😁

DAL

Thanks, DAL. You have a great sense of humor. I enjoy your posts immensely. You definitely speak your mind on this forum.

Jonathan Bradley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018069#Comment_1018069

This has honestly been one of the more interesting threads that I have read in a while on here. Honestly, companies do things like this all the time, however, I don't see that as Logos'/Faithlife's style. I get free books to review on my blog from time to time...but I don't worship at the altar of those companies. Honestly, some of the sharpest critics that I have seen of Faithlife and the Logos platform are some of the most ardent supporters of the company that I see on the Forums.

MWW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018063#Comment_1018063

A few people in this forum appear to worship at the altar of Logos.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018065#Comment_1018065

In all the promoting of prepub items I have done, I was gifted a $10 gift certificate once for helping push a small fortress press set through. That is the only time that I have ever got anything, other than I seem to remember being given one free book years back too. I try to offer honest evaluation and genuine help when I am able to. I had heard rumours that the MVPs May had been offered extra discounts but had never heard of any confirming it and Rosie would be the authority on that. She obviously can’t speak for all MVP but if she says she hasn’t I believe her. If a regular user of the forms like myself may have received a couple very small gifts it would seem not beyond the possibility that at times MVPs who do so much may have received some sort of occasional thank you gift. However I don’t think after hearing from Rosie that this happens often Or to even all MVP. I do remember many members suggeusting that Logos should have gifted me the NIB for my seeming tireless efforts to get it through PP. But I received no more than the satisfaction of it making it to Logos nor was I expecting anything more.

-dan

Tom Reynolds

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018082#Comment_1018082

With regard to the original question - I think that all of those pushing Logos have themselves dropped a small fortune on purchasing books, etc. I used to work in retail/wholesale and customers who dropped 10k+ got a lot more than a notebook, a T-shirt or a free subscription to something. Logos gives out free books every month along with birthday presents, etc. which is more generous to "every customer" than my company ever was. IMHO anyone who has dropped 5 or 6 (Rosie!) figures on Logos isn't in conflict of interest even if they did receive a bunch of L8 bonuses.

I've seen promos for getting an extra 5 books with a Logos 8 package that are available only through "select channels." I really don't see the value for Logos in doing this because "regular customers" might be upset they didn't join the right facebook group or something. How are those FB/websites being rewarded? Are there people behind them that are otherwise unknown who are pushing Logos on the forums? This isn't related to the original question per se but seems a more appropriate complaint.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018087#Comment_1018087

With regard to the original question - I think that all of those pushing Logos have themselves dropped a small fortune on purchasing books, etc. I used to work in retail/wholesale and customers who dropped 10k+ got a lot more than a notebook, a T-shirt or a free subscription to something. Logos gives out free books every month along with birthday presents, etc. which is more generous to "every customer" than my company ever was. IMHO anyone who has dropped 5 or 6 (Rosie!) figures on Logos isn't in conflict of interest even if they did receive a bunch of L8 bonuses.

Thanks for that observation.

Another reason why some of us who have spent a lot on Logos resources continue pushing Logos books (e.g., pushing to get things through pre-pub or community pricing) is that we want those books ourselves, and Logos's business model requires there to be enough interest before they are willing to put the investment into producing a book in their format.

Also, when you've put the kind of money into this product over the years that I have, you want to make sure your investment won't be wasted, i.e., that this company will still be around years from now. So it's enlightened self-interest that we're operating out of when we do recommend upgrades or books.

Some people along the way have gotten angry and felt that they were just throwing good money after bad and decided to stop purchasing more resources. I have to confess I've been tempted at times. It's a staggering amount of money I've invested in my Logos library, and it's scary to me when Faithlife makes moves towards requiring a subscription to keep access to this system. I'm used to spending lots of money on books in my print-based library, but once I buy a paper book, I have it forever, and don't need to keep upgrading my software to access it, nor learning new skills to be able to keep reading it. Logos library is different in that it provides search capabilities that my print-based library doesn't. But frankly, the amount of time I have to put into staying current with the software makes that a diminishing selling point. I use fewer and fewer of the other features Logos provides, and most of the time just use it as a glorified search facility and e-reader.

But I keep convincing myself that it's all worth it, and I keep buying more books to help Logos stay in business and because I'm greedy for more knowledge, and because the only alternative is despair and self-loathing.

I don't think that counts as a conflict of interest. But the original poster is free to disagree with me.

Erwin Stull, Sr.

Well, this is a strange post. I've never thought about any conflict of interest or if some are rewarded for loyalty and others not. Now that I'm reading and thinking on this post, it really does not matter to me if there are such practices taking place. My loyalty (if you want to call it that) stems from the overall personality of Logos/Faithlife and the way they relate to their customer base. Needless to say, I'm not going anywhere (been here for about 8 years), as I'm comfortable. If they decide to send you a free base package and not send me one, I would be happy for you and wouldn't consider it unethical or unfair.

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018094#Comment_1018094

I believe the product is better for having beta testers. I know these testers help the customers have a better experience, both with making suggestions prior to release, and helping on the forum.

I believe the company should release more complete functionality, and this propensity to use customers to find the flaws would be even more prevalent sans beta testers.

Thanks, Rosie, for your insight into this, in my opinion, non-issue.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018156#Comment_1018156

Well, I posted earlier, and assumed there'd be a shoe hitting the floor later. So far, it's been quiet, and I'm not sure what precipitated either the thread or its insult in the title.

That said, any type of programmed compensation, no matter how labeled (accompanies, regular gifts, etc) would destroy the MVPs as of much value. It has nothing to do with the folks that volunteer. It has to do with customers vs FL. The MVPs by necessity step into that relationship, and unfortunately get tagged. Just this last week. Thus, I doubt FL would entertain such an idea, without changing the whole program ... forum monitor, etc

Periodic random thank you gifts speak well to the mindset of the company, as also happens in church.

Kevin A

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018173#Comment_1018173

I wonder what the Lord thinks of this thread?

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018178#Comment_1018178

I think it is quite easy to work out who MIGHT have benefited in some small way from helping Faithlife by Beta testing Logos and in my opinion there is no evidence that as a group they exhibit any positive bias compared to other users.

Myke Harbuck

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018182#Comment_1018182

in my opinion there is no evidence that as a group they exhibit any positive bias compared to other users.

Precisely.

And as a 25-year veteran of the business sector, I'd say that the concept of a conflict of interest is not even applicable here, as those who beta test, MVPs, the "secret society,"or however they are labeled, do not actually promote anything. They are here only to support us and to answer our questions. The closest you'll get to promoting a product is an MVP advising they have such-and-such product / base package, and then only when they are directly asked.

I reviewed some of the MVPs posts and couldn't find a single one where they are "promoting" a product, or encouraging a financial transaction related to a product. As such, I really don't see how the issue could have even been raised in the first place, even as a hypothetical.

James McAdams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018194#Comment_1018194

I’ve said this twice before in this thread but noone seems to have noticed. I’ve seen nothing remotely suspicious, but still think some kind of badges might be a good idea. Without any accusations/suspicions of bias/animus etc, knowing if a group of people is getting different treatment and exposure to facets that we are unaware of is helpful. Partly because they might have access to information that we don’t and partly because different users have different experiences - getting an obvious indication that there are legitimate business reasons why some people are having certain experiences is helpful to know.

i don’t care about the issue itself all that much, but it upsets me somewhat that people are only interacting with one reason for wanting this when there are several. I’m not cynical about anyone’s contributions. That’s besides the point for me.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018024#Comment_1018024

and have over 28,000 resources

If you are at a loss on who you can gift you Logos library to in your will, feel free to consider me. [;)]

I'm just kidding. I do want you to know that I have always appreciated your comments in the forum.

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018196#Comment_1018196

James,

Everyone is allowed to be a beta tester, with no compensation. Generally that's the latest from the horses mouth. So I don't think they are getting secret information that we don't. The MVP's complain to Faithlife about their troubles just the some as we do.

If Faithlife wants to say "Thank You" to the MVP's ( and they do have badges) I'm all in favor of it. I don't think a small token of appreciation is going to turn (sway) a Christian brother or sister into pushing something they actually don't believe in.

I have been amazed at the hours or time they put in to do what they do. Truly It is a labor of love for a great product,

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018196#Comment_1018196

...but still think some kind of badges might be a good idea.

I think the challenge here would be determining what warrants the issuing of the badge or badges.

Would there be a minimum value in $ before a badge is issued?

Would there be a time limit on the badge? i.e. would it expire if no benefit was received for 12 months.

Like many users I receive occasional "gifts" from Faithlife that I believe many other long term users receive.

I received a small discount on an upgrade to a version that I beta tested some years ago.

Based on your suggestion I'm guessing that I would not qualify for a "badge" but what if I had developed a negative view of Faithlife because I am disappointed in the current level of gifts that I receive, this might result in me posting bad reviews making my previous status just as relevant as someone who currently receives gifts. (Note that I did choose not to continue making myself available as a beta tester as I don't have the time and the gifts are really not that great)

I understand the concern but most of the regulars here have been around a long time, I recognise most from the time when I was much more active here, of the ones that I "know" I have seen all of them complement and criticise Faithlife at different times.

My personal take on why we see a lot of positives from established (beta?) users has nothing to do with them receiving gifts I think it is primarily down to the fact that they have had time to get used to the new version and for them many of the negatives of the latest version are a memory of the beta process. They will also have seen the change in increments so many small changes rather than the single big one the rest of us experience. Basically they see the upgrade through a different lens.

I was openly critical of the release process for 8 but weeks later, as I get used to using it, I am beginning to see the product that others, who already had some experience of it, were so excited about.

James McAdams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018204#Comment_1018204

...but still think some kind of badges might be a good idea.

I think the challenge here would be determining what warrants the issuing of the badge or badges.

Would there be a minimum value in $ before a badge is issued?

Some of the MVPs have a red star signifying who they are - I think that’s based on number of posts, but not sure if there’s more to it than that. Liam mentioned that he was invited to try a preview build of Logos 8 - that’s the kind of relationship I’d want signified, because it signifies a different kind of relationship. I’m interested in who has that kind of relationship - access to non-public builds and such. Basically, normal users, MVPs, staff and those with early access - they’re the different types of relationship I see. All are legitimate, valued, positive things. No complaining here. But they’re in different kinds of relationships with the software and with Faithlife.

You say you were critical of Logos 8 at launch - I really wasn’t. I adore Logos and absolutely loved the latest update. I don’t want people to go uncompensated. I don’t want Faithlife to release a product without user input and appreciate that means private invites will go out. I have no problem with any of this. But I do think seeing different kinds of user with different levels of privelege/responsibility/access etc is useful.

James McAdams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018200#Comment_1018200

James,

Everyone is allowed to be a beta tester, with no compensation. Generally that's the latest from the horses mouth. So I don't think they are getting secret information that we don't. The MVP's complain to Faithlife about their troubles just the some as we do.

If Faithlife wants to say "Thank You" to the MVP's ( and they do have badges) I'm all in favor of it. I don't think a small token of appreciation is going to turn (sway) a Christian brother or sister into pushing something they actually don't believe in.

I have been amazed at the hours or time they put in to do what they do. Truly It is a labor of love for a great product,

I agree with everything you’ve said except where you suggest Logos doesn’t do private betas in addition to the public ones - Faithlife quite understandably wants input before major releases and some users did get access to preview builds of Logos 8. That’s totally fine by me - I’m glad they did it. And the users who’ve mentioned having that kind of access are awesome members of the community - some of the most knowledgeable and helpful, and forthrightly critical. I think they’re entirely trustworthy. But they have different access to me and as it stands I spend a lot of my time trying to work out what perspectives people are speaking from. I’m mostly doing so by recognising names etc over time. A badge would make it a bit easier.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018234#Comment_1018234

Some of the MVPs have a red star signifying who they are

If you look closely you will see that the "star" is a hole in a rusty bit of metal [;)]

I think that’s based on number of posts, but not sure if there’s more to it than that.

No, it looks that way because we stay on the forums until we think everyone's gotten an answer. Basically people are invited based on the quality of their answers and their willingness to put some time in on the forums. There are a few people who probably answer as many questions as well as MVP would who have turned down the invitation for an MVP style hole.

James McAdams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018238#Comment_1018238

Thanks MJ. I hope I’ve made it clear enough, but just in case, I really do love you guys and all that you do! Hope it doesn’t look like I’m trying to challenge/dismiss that!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018234#Comment_1018234

Some of the MVPs have a red star signifying who they are - I think that’s based on number of posts, but not sure if there’s more to it than that.

All of the MVPs have a red star. That's what the red star is for, to signify who are the MVPs. It has nothing to do with number of posts, though most MVPs do also have a lot of posts. That's partly why they were selected by Faithlife to be MVPs. They had demonstrated a commitment to interacting helpfully with other users and most have been using the product for many years so they've naturally racked up a lot of posts. Mind you, having a lot of posts does not necessarily make one a good candidate to become an MVP. A person has to interact with charity, so it's quality not quantity of posts that makes one a desirable candidate. New MVPs are nominated by existing MVPs who have noticed a track record of helpfulness among their fellow users. The MVP program is not something unique to Logos. I believe it was Microsoft that first pioneered the use of MVPs on their user forums a couple of decades or more ago.

I have lots of posts but don't have the red star badge anymore because I relinquished my role as an MVP after it became too time consuming for me and I wanted to back off on my involvement. I still post voluntarily from time to time, but much much less than I used to, and don't want to feel pressured or responsible to do so, which being an official MVP was making me feel. Also, to be honest, this angry attitude that some people have towards MVPs was part of why I didn't want to do it anymore. It's not a completely thankless role; many users are very appreciative. But there were enough misunderstandings and negative experiences, that I'd had enough.

Liam mentioned that he was invited to try a preview build of Logos 8 - that’s the kind of relationship I’d want signified, because it signifies a different kind of relationship. I’m interested in who has that kind of relationship - access to non-public builds and such. Basically, normal users, MVPs, staff and those with early access - they’re the different types of relationship I see. All are legitimate, valued, positive things. No complaining here. But they’re in different kinds of relationships with the software and with Faithlife.

Beta testing is open to anyone who wants to try it. There are risks involved, because preview builds (betas) are not guaranteed to be as stable as shipped releases, so one might experience crashes and data loss and interruptions in the ability to use the software, which could get in the way of getting your sermon done for Sunday if you're a pastor, etc. People who beta test are encouraged to have two installations of Logos on their machine, one stable one in addition to the beta, so they can still get work done if they are blocked by a crashing bug.

There is information on how to become a beta tester and what are the risks involved pinned at the top of the Logos Desktop Beta forum. MVPs are not necessarily beta testers, though most probably are. I have been a beta tester for most releases in the past. Beta testers are not allowed to talk about the new features while they are testing them. There are private forums that can only be seen by beta testers for reporting bugs in the betas. If they post in the regular forums about stuff that's relevant to existing versions, they are supposed to be careful not to post screenshots that would reveal some of the new features.

Using beta testers is a well established practice in the industry and I have never ever heard of the idea of other users feeling miffed that they didn't get to be one, or that they didn't know how to distinguish who were the beta testers from other users. It doesn't really matter, or shouldn't. It's meant to be something you sign up for voluntarily (and, like I said, anyone can do it), but it shouldn't affect how you talk about the product publicly, and it would probably be unwise to identify beta testers publicly with some badge. Then others might be scrutinizing their posts to see if they slipped up and mentioned some feature that was still under development and not announced yet.

Anyway, all of this is meant to make the user experience of Logos better (as is beta testing for all software companies that do it). The better it gets tested before it's released, the less likely regular users are to come up against bugs in the released product. So whoever is complaining about there being this class of users who get special inside views of upcoming versions should quit it and be thankful that beta testers exist, and volunteer to be one if you're so inclined.

There are also a very few alpha testers who get even earlier access than the beta testers. Most of them are Faithlife employees. Faithlife invites a few others from among longtime users who know the product very well (mostly MVPs). Yes, alpha testing is kept pretty hush-hush so as not to reveal new features that are still under wraps. But again, this is nothing abnormal in the industry, nor a conflict of interest. These people give something valuable to Faithlife (their time testing the product) and may receive some product credit in return. It's a fair compensation (actually not entirely fair, since I think Faithlife gets the better end of the deal; think how much they'd have to pay employees if they hired more testers internally).

Faithlife employees are identified with a Faithlife logo under their avatar.

MVPs are identified with a red star under their avatar:

I hope I've adequately defended why beta testers don't need to be identified. And there are no other special classes of users that I'm aware of.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018234#Comment_1018234

Some of these MVPs I have known going back to the old Logos usenet newsgroups. (though I don't recall we had an MVP program then... we were a lot smaller group)

These MPVs, along with the newer ones, follow my general impression that they are honest and generous volunteers. The company is solid too and Bob has answered my emails on more than one occasion. The value of generosity and integrity only comes from a group of people choosing to do the right thing over and over the years.

So maybe I have a bias, but I personally have no problem with MVPs or beta testers getting some token of thanks for their work. I am grateful for the time they invest and sometimes I wonder when they have time left to study the Bible! In the early days of the wiki I worked on some of the pages and helped a few users out here and there, but I just don't have the time that some are able to give. I think we are better off as a logos community with their generous contributions.

If MVPs or beta testers do an official 'evaluation' of the software on a blog or some other sort of digital medium and if they receive some sort of 'benefit', it seems a 'best practice' is to declare it. That said, it would not bother me greatly if they didn't. Not saying that I disagree with people who feel differently, it's just when I read evaluations or reviews, I read from multiple sources to dissuade any one voice, positive or negative, from influencing me too much.

P.S. - I do not receive any benefit from Logos, other than I think Logos 8 is the fastest and most stable Mac version we have ever had.

James McAdams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018240#Comment_1018240

There are also a very few alpha testers who get even earlier access than the beta testers. Most of them are Faithlife employees. Faithlife invites a few others from among longtime users who know the product very well (mostly MVPs). Yes, alpha testing is kept pretty hush-hush so as not to reveal new features that are still under wraps. But again, this is nothing abnormal in the industry, nor a conflict of interest. These people give something valuable to Faithlife (their time testing the product) and may receive some product credit in return. It's a fair compensation (actually not entirely fair, since I think Faithlife gets the better end of the deal; think how much they'd have to pay employees if they hired more testers internally).

These are the ones I'd like to see identified, in the same way that we can see Faithlife staff/MVPs. I've already been as clear as I know how to be that my reasons for wanting an identifier have absolutely nothing to do with suspicion of conflicts of interest or accusations that anything untoward is going on (I think you have me muddled with the OP), so I won't go into that again.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018245#Comment_1018245

There are also a very few alpha testers who get even earlier access than the beta testers. Most of them are Faithlife employees. Faithlife invites a few others from among longtime users who know the product very well (mostly MVPs). Yes, alpha testing is kept pretty hush-hush so as not to reveal new features that are still under wraps. But again, this is nothing abnormal in the industry, nor a conflict of interest. These people give something valuable to Faithlife (their time testing the product) and may receive some product credit in return. It's a fair compensation (actually not entirely fair, since I think Faithlife gets the better end of the deal; think how much they'd have to pay employees if they hired more testers internally).

These are the ones I'd like to see identified, in the same way that we can see Faithlife staff/MVPs.

Not gonna happen. It would be like revealing intellectual property secrets. I'm probably not even supposed to have mentioned that alpha testing exists, as it's the sort of thing that companies usually keep secret. But anyone who knows the software industry at all knows that most software companies do alpha testing of some sort, though they might not call it that. In any event, no company identifies their alpha testers (or beta testers, for that matter). So why should Faithlife? They don't want people pestering them to give them hints about what's coming in the forthcoming versions of the product. I've never been invited to be an alpha tester so I was only speaking speculatively as to whether any non-MVP users ever get invited. But if they do, they (as well as any MVPs who might be alpha testers) should be shielded from scrutiny or jealousy by other users by keeping their identity private, IMO.

I've already been as clear as I know how to be that my reasons for wanting an identifier have absolutely nothing to do with suspicion of conflicts of interest or accusations that anything untoward is going on (I think you have me muddled with the OP), so I won't go into that again.

Sorry, I was responding to the OP about that part. I didn't mean to imply you agreed with the sentiment about conflict of interest. But you do seem to think it's unfair that there are these people whose identities are kept secret. (FWIW, by even mentioning that they do alpha testing, I'm sure I've permanently disqualified myself from ever being invited to do it, but I don't care. I don't have time. I think there are some folks on the forums who are envious and wish they could be invited to be alpha testers. But it's Faithlife's prerogative to choose whom they're going to invite and keep the program under wraps.)

Obligatory disclosure (or non-disclosure): I get no benefit from Faithlife for defending their practice.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018251#Comment_1018251

Rosie,

I know absolutely nothing about the software industry, but logically it would make sense to have a smaller group of users test software prior to releasing to a larger group for beta testing. Therefore, I don't think you have divulged any "top secret" information.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018268#Comment_1018268

I know absolutely nothing about the software industry, but logically it would make sense to have a smaller group of users test software prior to releasing to a larger group for beta testing. Therefore, I don't think you have divulged any "top secret" information.

Well, yeah, and the fact that it's called "beta" testing kind of gives you a clue that there might be an "alpha" level testing that comes before it. So you're right that it's no secret this sort of thing takes place. But the companies that do it (including Logos) don't make a big deal about it because they don't want to give any hint about when the next version is coming out before it comes out. If word got around that it was in alpha testing, then everyone would guess that a new release was just around the corner.

Logos's practice seems to be to use secret alpha testing in the lead-up to a major new release (..., L7, L8) and not reveal once the beta testing of same is going on behind the scenes. Then for the incremental releases (e.g., 8.1) the beta is publicly acknowledged.

James McAdams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018251#Comment_1018251

There are also a very few alpha testers who get even earlier access than the beta testers. Most of them are Faithlife employees. Faithlife invites a few others from among longtime users who know the product very well (mostly MVPs). Yes, alpha testing is kept pretty hush-hush so as not to reveal new features that are still under wraps. But again, this is nothing abnormal in the industry, nor a conflict of interest. These people give something valuable to Faithlife (their time testing the product) and may receive some product credit in return. It's a fair compensation (actually not entirely fair, since I think Faithlife gets the better end of the deal; think how much they'd have to pay employees if they hired more testers internally).

These are the ones I'd like to see identified, in the same way that we can see Faithlife staff/MVPs.

Not gonna happen. It would be like revealing intellectual property secrets. I'm probably not even supposed to have mentioned that alpha testing exists, as it's the sort of thing that companies usually keep secret.

A few MVPs here specifically talked about being involved in a pre-release testing phase (mentioned post-release). You’re not telling me anything that wasn’t public knowledge to an extent - I didn’t know if it was an early private beta or alpha but... meh. Thing is, I’d assumed we already had that badge before this thread - I thought it was just a subset of people who had the MVP/Faithlife badges. I’m not looking for anything terribly specific (declaring exactly what distinguishes them from normal customer in minute detail) - just a marker of some kind. Graham Criddle put together some help videos based on early access but, y’know, he had a star under his name so I guessed that he would have some preview access. It was only when Liam mentioned it that it occurred to me that there are people with that access that I would never have guessed. I’d have liked some indicator for that. It doesn’t need to give any specific info on what they’ve done - just some indicator that they’re in a different subset to normal customers in some sense.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018314#Comment_1018314

just some indicator that they’re in a different subset to normal customers in some sense.

Pardon me for butting in but isn't being "normal customers" exactly who you want to be doing the beta testing? You want Logos to work for "normal customers" not just for the elite.

Liam Maguire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1018314#Comment_1018314

It was only when Liam mentioned it that it occurred to me that there are people with that access that I would never have guessed. I’d have liked some indicator for that. It doesn’t need to give any specific info on what they’ve done - just some indicator that they’re in a different subset to normal customers in some sense.

Please read the following in the most pleasant, charitable tone you can imagine, because that is how I felt when I wrote it. All questions are genuine questions to which I am interested in your answer :-)

I fear that my initial well-intentioned post has stirred up such hornets that I know think that perhaps I should have kept my fingers in check! But alas, it is out there now and there is nothing I can do about it now. ;-)

That said, I've been following this thread quite closely and if I am honest, the question I keep coming back to as I read your posts is this: "What difference would it make?" Let me give you an example, here is the link to my recent forum activity. Take a random sample of some of the posts I've made over the last 6 months, in what significant way does your new knowledge that I've beta tested for Logos products changed the way you read those posts?

If you really want to have an idea of who Beta Tested, take a look at the early posts in the Logos 8 Forum and note down all the names of people defending the release or offered support to new users. You cannot know for sure, but chances are that some of names you list will be beta testers. Again, you could look back over some of their posts and ask the question above. I suspect you'll come to the same answer.

Furthermore, people (not necessarily yourself) tend to associate a beta tester with a person who possesses technical knowledge of the software. But that is not me, far from it, I'm just an ordinary user. 'Power user' maybe, but a user nonetheless. My worry is that by giving me a 'badge' it might have the effect of investing my posts with more credibility than they deserve. "He said to try this but it didn't work, he is a beta tester he should know what he is talking about!" Worse still giving me a badge might lead some to believe that I am faithlife's employ. At least with MVPs it doesn't take much brain power to work out that MVP most likely stands for 'Most Valuable Poster' or similar, ruling out the likelihood they are employed, it is much harder for new users to do that for someone with a 'beta tester' badge.

I Beta Test because I enjoy it; because I have a learning difference (dyslexia) and so can offer a different (hopefully useful) perspective to the process; attached the previous reason, Logos has transformed how I do bible study and theological reading, and if anything Beta Testing is a way to see thank you. For full disclosure, yes, I (and the other testers) received store credit as a way of saying 'thank you' for Beta Testing Logos 8. This is the one and only time I have ever been compensated for beta testing. I neither asked for it, nor expected it, but I was thankful to God for his kindness. Again, does knowing that I received a gift significantly change the way you read my posts? What about the other testers? Since you don't know who the testers are, what value does this information have? If you did know who there were, what difference would it make?

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1017986#Comment_1017986

I expect when Logos 8 and previous versions were released, a lot of hype came from those who receive secret discounts or free books not offered to the general public. If this is true, it is a disgrace.

You're making serious allegations there, but putting no evidence forward. You "expect" that this happens, and you're willing to sully the reputations of others merely on the basis of what you "expect"? If you have specific allegations then state them. If not, I think you should withdraw this.

For myself, I have never received a secret discount or free books not offered to the general public. Although I beta tested Logos 8, and have been enthusiastic about it, I wasn't gifted a copy or given a discount. When Logos 8 was released I spent $2,200 of my own money on it. When I buy a product from Faithlife, I always pay what everyone else pays. I get no special discounts either as an MVP or as a high-paying customer. I pay what everyone else pays — the price listed on the website.

That's not to say I've received nothing from Faithlife. I have, several years ago, undertaken some contract work for Faithlife (producing videos for MobileEd) for which I was paid. I have occasionally received small gifts from Faithlife (a Logos branded water bottle was the most recent example), and the odd bit of store credit as a thank you for providing significant amounts of private beta feedback. As you can see from other posts in this thread, they're exactly the same things that other people have also received. I also currently have a free subscription to Faithlife Connect Essentials, which I guess saves me $100/year. I appreciate that, but frankly, that's saving me only about 1.5% a year on my own expenditure on Logos products. That 1.5% annual saving is far, far less than thousands of other people on this forum get through their academic discount.

Everything I write on these forums (positively or negatively) is written with one aim: to help people study the Bible better, so that they may know more of Christ. It's not entirely an unselfish aim, if I can help in a small way to make Logos Bible Software a better product, that benefits me too. But financial gain has never ever been a factor. That's simply not how I operate. It's not how Faithlife operate, either.