8.1 (8.1.0.0016) is Now Available
Comments
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Kiyah said:
I just think it's such a busy layout for lectionary reading.
I've not thought of it as for reading the lectionary per se but for preparing weekday service remarks or answering questions for RCIA/Mystagogia students or . . .
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Kiyah said:
I just think it's such a busy layout for lectionary reading.
I've not thought of it as for reading the lectionary per se but for preparing weekday service remarks or answering questions for RCIA/Mystagogia students or . . .
That's fair. But I also know people who use the RCL Daily Readings for Lectio Divina or what ever kind of daily devotional reading they do. As a non-catholic who also isn't preaching each Sunday, I use the lectionaries for (quasi-)daily reading according to the church calendar. It has made me more engaged and disciplined in my reading than trying to do a daily bible reading plan, which I always abandon after a few weeks.
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There is certainly no reason that there can't be more than one lectionary based layout.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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doc said:
Why did Logos remove this in the first place.
We didn't modify the old home page. Instead, we completely started over from scratch. There wasn't time to implement the feature you are talking about in the new implementation, and the old implementation could not be kept, as it is not compatible with the new homepage. It's still on the list to do, but there have been higher priority issues that have kept us busy.
This was precisely what the connect subscription was intended to avoid, a steady development rather than a rushed release
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Mike Pettit said:
This was precisely what the connect subscription was intended to avoid, a steady development rather than a rushed release
But it's not possible to completely re-write something in six-week intervals. The new home page couldn't (easily) have been built in that way. Six-week blocks are great for incremental improvements. Major releases are great for significant changes. I'm glad there's both, because if Logos only ever had incremental improvements it would fall behind, and if it only had major releases I'd get impatient for change.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mike Pettit said:
This was precisely what the connect subscription was intended to avoid, a steady development rather than a rushed release
Of course, this assumes that L8 was a rushed release which I wholeheartedly disagree with. And honestly, the release notes are a minor issue when you really think about it. It is not as if they are not available, you can get them just like always.
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Things are better with 8.1 but I do think 8 was rushed. it felt more like a beta than a release to me, too many things not functioning properly and consistently, I seriously wanted to downgrade. 8.1 while more stable still feels to me less polished than 7 was.
-dan
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I don’t think L8 was rushed. But it was time-limited. It was the best that could be done in a limited time period. Given that 8.1 is already out, and 8.2 won’t be far behind, I think ”best in the time available“ is OK.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Ken Shawver said:
Right.
If you aren't familiar with the software industry that is always true. Development always look at their priority lists for fixes and enhancements. Faithlife, from an outsiders view that understands the industry of software development, does a good job. It is hard as you want to continue moving the product forward, but at the same time addressing issues and desires of the user base as it fits with resources.
^This.
On the basis of several major releases now, Faithlife has figured out that it must deliver major point releases in the late Q3 or early Q4 time frame in order to capitalize on sales. The business must sell packages to generate revenue to build the business. Judging from my purchases this go around, they succeeded. [:P]
This time cycle determines their priorities for release, and there are always challenges that come up. I think they've succeeded in delivering a worthy release to us.
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I fit 7 across my screen but it opened up to 4, I had to manually force go an click on auto to get it to resize from 4 to 7. I'll have to take note next time I restart Logos 8 to see if it is now work correctly. Thanks Reuben.
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Denise said:doc said:
- The old home page was not broken so didn’t require starting from scratch again.
- if you understood your customers you would have known customers expected these to be there when they loaded Logos 8 for the first time,
- The home page is the first impression a user gets of a new Logos release and putting to market a home page that is missing features and uncustomisable is a huge mistake I hope FL never make again.
- You bought off more than you could chew with the notes upgrade the home page should have been left alone.
- Going about things the way FL has with the Logos 8 release has been a message from the company to users that we take our.Customers for granted.
doc, how can you be so naive.
Logosians love cars ... used to be Cadallacs, but now Ferraris. Now, let's say the Italian car designer wanted to put in an engine that would go far faster. Future plans. So, they designed one, but it wasn't quite finished. But they put it in the new model anyway. And promised they'd try to finish it sometime .... priorities, priorities.
See?
Andrew's a good guy. And my old Ferrari 7 still does great at the track.
Not Naive, just don't like a home page that looks like a beta version of Logos 4 Kids. It looks like a sticker page where I can put all the collector cards that come in my cereal box.
I have no personal issue with Andrew or anyone at FL, it is the collective decision to scrap something that was not broken and looked professional to replace it with what we now have and remove a lot of basic functionality in the process and then not have not in a state ready to release to customers but release it to us anyway, not just release but sell it to us. I am sorry but this is treating your customer with disrespect when the CEO of a company signs off on doing this sort of thing and somebody needs to keep FL honest and call them out for unacceptable decisions like this one. Logos 8 home page is the worst home page in the history of this software and its introduction to customers was handled poorly. FL is a much better company capable of much more than what and how they dished it up Logos 8 to customers. And the CEO is nowhere to be seen.
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David Taylor Jr said:
Honestly some people are going to complain no matter what Faithlife does.
… because they keep treating customers with disrespect, don't take your customers for granted, don't sell us beta software that you broke because you decided to redesign something from scratch that was not broken. Those who wanted Logos 4 Kids have now got the Logos 4 Kids home page. They way the design is heading Logos 9 will start rewarding us with 'badges' for completing reading plans, workflows etc.
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Mark Barnes said:
I don’t think L8 was rushed. But it was time-limited. It was the best that could be done in a limited time period. Given that 8.1 is already out, and 8.2 won’t be far behind, I think ”best in the time available“ is OK.
Rushed or time limited it was not ready for release. FL once again bit off more than they could chew and have turned out their worst home page.
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doc said:
because they keep treating customers with disrespect, don't take your customers for granted
That hasn't happened here.
doc said:don't sell us beta software
They didn't.
doc said:Those who wanted Logos 4 Kids have now got the Logos 4 Kids home page.
It amazes me that people are so enraged about the HOME PAGE. I mean really? The Home Page is not why you buy the software. If it is, then I have news for you, you bought the wrong software. It changed, you don't like it, we get it. Move on. Honestly....
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David Taylor Jr said:
Honestly some people are going to complain no matter what Faithlife does.
And there will always be some who think it’s appropriate to respond to others issues in a way that adds no value to the situation.
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These are your opinions Dav and the way you choose to contiue to respond to me online after your offline judgements shows you have no idea to handle dealing with people who disagree with you. May God grow you in this area.
David Taylor Jr said:doc said:because they keep treating customers with disrespect, don't take your customers for granted
That hasn't happened here.
doc said:don't sell us beta software
They didn't.
doc said:Those who wanted Logos 4 Kids have now got the Logos 4 Kids home page.
It amazes me that people are so enraged about the HOME PAGE. I mean really? The Home Page is not why you buy the software. If it is, then I have news for you, you bought the wrong software. It changed, you don't like it, we get it. Move on. Honestly....
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David Taylor Jr said:
It amazes me that people are so enraged about the HOME PAGE. I mean really? The Home Page is not why you buy the software. If it is, then I have news for you, you bought the wrong software. It changed, you don't like it, we get it. Move on. Honestly....
Enraged? What thread are you reading? I haven’t seen anyone enraged just customers wanting to be free to express their feedback free from judgement.
Once again where has anyone said they bought the software for the homepage? You are good at reading things into comments peopl make in order to build up a straw person that you say characterises the people with whom you disagre.
Honestly the home page is the entry point into the software and therefore first impression of it, it is also a launch pad for ongoing tasks a user is working on in the software and used to also be a dashboard where you could have quick to your Logos Account, release notes, recently downloaded resources and for those not comfortable with resource prioritsation they could quickly set their preferred bible. This was also useful for those who liked to switch their preferred bible with ease depending upon the task they were using the software for at the time.
The home page is not a big deal for you, I’m ok with that. Telling other people is shouldn’t be important to them because it’s not important to you. That’s not on David. Maybe I am just a simple man, after all I just had to look up a word in another private message you just sent me because you wanted to say even more judgemental things to me offline. Seems to me you are the one that needs to let go.
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doc said:
Honestly the home page is the entry point into the software and therefore first impression of it,
Yes, you have made this point often. However, NEW customers (who are the only ones getting first impressions) wouldn't see the old homepage so they wouldn't have the bias toward it. New customers wouldn't have the same complaints because they wouldn't know anything else.
Old customers may not like the homepage, personally, I'm not crazy about it but I wasn't crazy about the old one either, spend most of their time in the software itself and not the homepage.
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The thing about old customers is they have invested a lot of money in FL to enable them to be still in business so they could release Logos 8 and reach out to new customers. Both groups of customers need to be considered rather than turning upside existing customers experience of the software overnight and not even having that new interface ready to go to give to the old customers. Just be thankful I haven’t started on notes.
David Taylor Jr said:doc said:Honestly the home page is the entry point into the software and therefore first impression of it,
Yes, you have made this point often. However, NEW customers (who are the only ones getting first impressions) wouldn't see the old homepage so they wouldn't have the bias toward it. New customers wouldn't have the same complaints because they wouldn't know anything else.
Old customers may not like the homepage, personally, I'm not crazy about it but I wasn't crazy about the old one either, spend most of their time in the software itself and not the homepage.
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Hi,
Just feel I need to jump in here. I am not a big fan of the new home page either, but I have no doubt that it will grow on me.
What I would like to point out is that all of us (well at least I should think the vast majority of us) have bought Logos to help us study God’s Word and to allow it to change us to conform more to what our Father wants us to be. I’m sure that even most Pastors want this from it as well as the ability it gives them to prepare teaching.
The home page, although useful in many ways, is not really there for that purpose.
Please can we all agree to disagree and not end up this week fighting and arguing - our British Conservative Party is doing enough of that for all of us and is setting an example of how NOT to live our lives.
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I have no problem with people holding diffent views I only have a problem with those who think everyone who has a different view to them should not be heard from.
Hope things settle for you in UK, it’s been unstable for us in Australia with PM’s being booted by their party.
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doc said:Denise said:doc said:
- The old home page was not broken so didn’t require starting from scratch again.
- if you understood your customers you would have known customers expected these to be there when they loaded Logos 8 for the first time,
- The home page is the first impression a user gets of a new Logos release and putting to market a home page that is missing features and uncustomisable is a huge mistake I hope FL never make again.
- You bought off more than you could chew with the notes upgrade the home page should have been left alone.
- Going about things the way FL has with the Logos 8 release has been a message from the company to users that we take our.Customers for granted.
doc, how can you be so naive.
Logosians love cars ... used to be Cadallacs, but now Ferraris. Now, let's say the Italian car designer wanted to put in an engine that would go far faster. Future plans. So, they designed one, but it wasn't quite finished. But they put it in the new model anyway. And promised they'd try to finish it sometime .... priorities, priorities.
See?
Andrew's a good guy. And my old Ferrari 7 still does great at the track.
Not Naive, just don't like a home page that looks like a beta version of Logos 4 Kids. It looks like a sticker page where I can put all the collector cards that come in my cereal box.
I have no personal issue with Andrew or anyone at FL, it is the collective decision to scrap something that was not broken and looked professional to replace it with what we now have and remove a lot of basic functionality in the process and then not have not in a state ready to release to customers but release it to us anyway, not just release but sell it to us. I am sorry but this is treating your customer with disrespect when the CEO of a company signs off on doing this sort of thing and somebody needs to keep FL honest and call them out for unacceptable decisions like this one. Logos 8 home page is the worst home page in the history of this software and its introduction to customers was handled poorly. FL is a much better company capable of much more than what and how they dished it up Logos 8 to customers. And the CEO is nowhere to be seen.
I also like the old home page to a large extent (I was especially fond of the background pattern that everyone always wanted to cover up). BUT it was broke. If you follow the forums, then you will have seen TONS of posts complaining about the homepage going back to it's intro. You will find a large percentage of users that mention quite frequently their avoidance of the homepage altogether. It may not have been technically broken, but for many it was apparently a bad or useless experience.
While developing the web app, they tried a different approach to the homepage. It has received tons of positive feedback from what I've seen on the forums. It's a much more modern and "standard" design and hopefully much more flexible. I'm personally excited about the possibilities of new content and jumping board for getting into whichever tool, layout or study your looking for. It was a natural step to bring this new design in to all the products to address the specific user feedback on the old design and to unify the design across all platforms.
Faithlife actively collects and reviews metrics on how the software is used. They frequently put out surveys and actively gather user feedback. There is always a Logos Next Wishlist thread where they seek feedback for the next big release. UNLIKE MANY COMPANIES, they have an active forum with active participation from employees and top level staff. I'm fairly certain that every post on the forums is seen by at least one employee, if not several. Faithlife has an active public beta program, a targeted private beta program. I fail to see where anyone would get the impression that Faithlife doesn't hear or care about user opinions. Most of the features in the final release are direct responses to user feedback. Homepage, Notes, Workflows, Search Templates. Every one of these address specific feedback from users to Faithlife on these forums about the software to improve home & notes, to help new users learn the software and offer directed study with workflows, to make constructing searches easier with search templates.
It's regrettable that not everything was ready at ship. I'm sure no one wanted that, but it's here. The best we can do is give productive feedback on its current state and stop flogging a dead horse or trying to put it back in the barn. Let's please move this forward and stop repeating the same argument at the risk of offending each other or building animosities, respectfully. Everyone's opinion is valuable and has been expressed. Let's please move forward.
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Thanks Randy for your providing you perspectives rather than simply saying you I have a different view so mine is wrong. One of the reasons I never took to the web app is because of the homepage it was a bug turn off and I was shell shocked when I saw this pur into the desktop application. Maybe I am not young and hip enough but the design does not look modern to me. I never had a problem with the old home page design and to be honest never saw the regular complaints you say existed. Sure things can always be improved but I thought the design and appearance matched the software. But I appreciate you helping me understand why you have a different view even if I don’t agree with you on a lot of points. After all we all come to the software for different needs.
Have a great day/evening in the Lord.
Randy W. Sims said:doc said:Denise said:doc said:- The old home page was not broken so didn’t require starting from scratch again.
- if you understood your customers you would have known customers expected these to be there when they loaded Logos 8 for the first time,
- The home page is the first impression a user gets of a new Logos release and putting to market a home page that is missing features and uncustomisable is a huge mistake I hope FL never make again.
- You bought off more than you could chew with the notes upgrade the home page should have been left alone.
- Going about things the way FL has with the Logos 8 release has been a message from the company to users that we take our.Customers for granted.
doc, how can you be so naive.
Logosians love cars ... used to be Cadallacs, but now Ferraris. Now, let's say the Italian car designer wanted to put in an engine that would go far faster. Future plans. So, they designed one, but it wasn't quite finished. But they put it in the new model anyway. And promised they'd try to finish it sometime .... priorities, priorities.
See?
Andrew's a good guy. And my old Ferrari 7 still does great at the track.
Not Naive, just don't like a home page that looks like a beta version of Logos 4 Kids. It looks like a sticker page where I can put all the collector cards that come in my cereal box.
I have no personal issue with Andrew or anyone at FL, it is the collective decision to scrap something that was not broken and looked professional to replace it with what we now have and remove a lot of basic functionality in the process and then not have not in a state ready to release to customers but release it to us anyway, not just release but sell it to us. I am sorry but this is treating your customer with disrespect when the CEO of a company signs off on doing this sort of thing and somebody needs to keep FL honest and call them out for unacceptable decisions like this one. Logos 8 home page is the worst home page in the history of this software and its introduction to customers was handled poorly. FL is a much better company capable of much more than what and how they dished it up Logos 8 to customers. And the CEO is nowhere to be seen.
I also like the old home page to a large extent (I was especially fond of the background pattern that everyone always wanted to cover up). BUT it was broke. If you follow the forums, then you will have seen TONS of posts complaining about the homepage going back to it's intro. You will find a large percentage of users that mention quite frequently their avoidance of the homepage altogether. It may not have been technically broken, but for many it was apparently a bad or useless experience.
While developing the web app, they tried a different approach to the homepage. It has received tons of positive feedback from what I've seen on the forums. It's a much more modern and "standard" design and hopefully much more flexible. I'm personally excited about the possibilities of new content and jumping board for getting into whichever tool, layout or study your looking for. It was a natural step to bring this new design in to all the products to address the specific user feedback on the old design and to unify the design across all platforms.
Faithlife actively collects and reviews metrics on how the software is used. They frequently put out surveys and actively gather user feedback. There is always a Logos Next Wishlist thread where they seek feedback for the next big release. UNLIKE MANY COMPANIES, they have an active forum with active participation from employees and top level staff. I'm fairly certain that every post on the forums is seen by at least one employee, if not several. Faithlife has an active public beta program, a targeted private beta program. I fail to see where anyone would get the impression that Faithlife doesn't hear or care about user opinions. Most of the features in the final release are direct responses to user feedback. Homepage, Notes, Workflows, Search Templates. Every one of these address specific feedback from users to Faithlife on these forums about the software to improve home & notes, to help new users learn the software and offer directed study with workflows, to make constructing searches easier with search templates.
It's regrettable that not everything was ready at ship. I'm sure no one wanted that, but it's here. The best we can do is give productive feedback on its current state and stop flogging a dead horse or trying to put it back in the barn. Let's please move this forward and stop repeating the same argument at the risk of offending each other or building animosities, respectfully. Everyone's opinion is valuable and has been expressed. Let's please move forward.
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doc said:Mark Barnes said:
I don’t think L8 was rushed. But it was time-limited. It was the best that could be done in a limited time period. Given that 8.1 is already out, and 8.2 won’t be far behind, I think ”best in the time available“ is OK.
Rushed or time limited it was not ready for release. FL once again bit off more than they could chew and have turned out their worst home page.
Doc, I appreciate your contributions here, and I trust the following comments will be taken in good spirit. You’re free to disagree, of course!
I don’t have a problem with you being critical of Faithlife or aspects of the software. That’s partly what the forums are for. But if you’re wondering why some people overreact to your posts, this post is a good example of why that happens. If you read again what you’ve said in reply to me, you‘ll see you’ve stated in absolute terms what is, in fact, your opinion. “It was not ready for release” is your opinion. You’re quite entitled to that opinion, but if you state it as definitively as that, you shouldn’t be surprised if people express strong disagreement (as, in their opinion, it isn’t true). You might therefore find it more constructive to say, “I don’t think it was ready for release“, or “it doesn‘t seem ready for release”. The same is true for “worst home page”. Again, that’s your opinion. It’s not unreasonable, and you‘re obviously entitled to hold and express that view. But, it’s stated as though it’s an incontrovertible fact, even though it’s simply an opinion. Perhaps if you‘re able to acknowledge when you’re expressing an opinion more clearly in the future, your posts (and criticisms) may be better received.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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doc said:
The thing about old customers is they have invested a lot of money in FL to enable them to be still in business so they could release Logos 8 and reach out to new customers. Both groups of customers need to be considered rather than turning upside existing customers experience of the software overnight and not even having that new interface ready to go to give to the old customers.
[Y]
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doc said:
Not Naive, just don't like a home page that looks like a beta version of Logos 4 Kids. It looks like a sticker page where I can put all the collector cards that come in my cereal box.
I have no personal issue with Andrew or anyone at FL, it is the collective decision to scrap something that was not broken and looked professional to replace it with what we now have and remove a lot of basic functionality in the process and then not have not in a state ready to release to customers but release it to us anyway, not just release but sell it to us. I am sorry but this is treating your customer with disrespect when the CEO of a company signs off on doing this sort of thing and somebody needs to keep FL honest and call them out for unacceptable decisions like this one. Logos 8 home page is the worst home page in the history of this software and its introduction to customers was handled poorly. FL is a much better company capable of much more than what and how they dished it up Logos 8 to customers. And the CEO is nowhere to be seen.
Agree.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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In my own life, products I don't like, I don't buy for myself, especially when there are alternatives that I prefer.
*goes back to enjoying Verbum 8*
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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David Taylor Jr said:doc said:
because they keep treating customers with disrespect, don't take your customers for granted
That hasn't happened here.
I am one of those who would 100% agree that when releasing 8 Faithlife showed little respect for existing users the exception being the warning about the changes to notes. They made a large number of changes, which to an existing user appeared arbitrary and were disruptive and only provided adequate documentation of the changes under pressure and after most had been discovered.
David Taylor Jr said:It amazes me that people are so enraged about the HOME PAGE.
From my perspective the Home Page is not an issue and, based on the posts that I have read, its not the biggest issue for many. Oddly it seems to have become a focal point for the issues with 8 without actually being the issue for many. I would suggest that the reason for this is because as a feature it is highly visible and this makes it an easy item to monitor for progress.
My only "issue" with the Home Page was actually the Reading Plan Workspace Issue which is fixed in 8.1 which means that I can have one less panel in my layout. That said, I really do get why so many people are upset by what is missing, there may be workarounds but I can see that for some users the current solution is more complex than the old one. Oddly, the removal of the old Home Page has made me realise that there are quite a few things that I did to get information that the Old Home Page made easier as far as I can tell based on the comments here.
What we still need is some clear communication from Faithlife on when the issues that they have agreed to fix will be fixed. If we don't get that then every six weeks there will be discussions like this because as things stand I'm not expecting much to change in 8.2 for the "missing" features because 8.1 has already demonstrated that Faithlife's priority is the new features like Workflows.
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.
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Graham Owen said:
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.
https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019191392-Changes-from-Logos-7-to-Logos-8 Though it is unreasonable to say when we can expect fixes because they probably do not know themselves. It changes as different things get prioritized. But that link talks about the differences and whether they plan to bring something back or rework it in 8. In some cases it even gives dates.
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