8.1 (8.1.0.0016) is Now Available
Comments
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Hi,
Just feel I need to jump in here. I am not a big fan of the new home page either, but I have no doubt that it will grow on me.
What I would like to point out is that all of us (well at least I should think the vast majority of us) have bought Logos to help us study God’s Word and to allow it to change us to conform more to what our Father wants us to be. I’m sure that even most Pastors want this from it as well as the ability it gives them to prepare teaching.
The home page, although useful in many ways, is not really there for that purpose.
Please can we all agree to disagree and not end up this week fighting and arguing - our British Conservative Party is doing enough of that for all of us and is setting an example of how NOT to live our lives.
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I have no problem with people holding diffent views I only have a problem with those who think everyone who has a different view to them should not be heard from.
Hope things settle for you in UK, it’s been unstable for us in Australia with PM’s being booted by their party.
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doc said:Denise said:doc said:
- The old home page was not broken so didn’t require starting from scratch again.
- if you understood your customers you would have known customers expected these to be there when they loaded Logos 8 for the first time,
- The home page is the first impression a user gets of a new Logos release and putting to market a home page that is missing features and uncustomisable is a huge mistake I hope FL never make again.
- You bought off more than you could chew with the notes upgrade the home page should have been left alone.
- Going about things the way FL has with the Logos 8 release has been a message from the company to users that we take our.Customers for granted.
doc, how can you be so naive.
Logosians love cars ... used to be Cadallacs, but now Ferraris. Now, let's say the Italian car designer wanted to put in an engine that would go far faster. Future plans. So, they designed one, but it wasn't quite finished. But they put it in the new model anyway. And promised they'd try to finish it sometime .... priorities, priorities.
See?
Andrew's a good guy. And my old Ferrari 7 still does great at the track.
Not Naive, just don't like a home page that looks like a beta version of Logos 4 Kids. It looks like a sticker page where I can put all the collector cards that come in my cereal box.
I have no personal issue with Andrew or anyone at FL, it is the collective decision to scrap something that was not broken and looked professional to replace it with what we now have and remove a lot of basic functionality in the process and then not have not in a state ready to release to customers but release it to us anyway, not just release but sell it to us. I am sorry but this is treating your customer with disrespect when the CEO of a company signs off on doing this sort of thing and somebody needs to keep FL honest and call them out for unacceptable decisions like this one. Logos 8 home page is the worst home page in the history of this software and its introduction to customers was handled poorly. FL is a much better company capable of much more than what and how they dished it up Logos 8 to customers. And the CEO is nowhere to be seen.
I also like the old home page to a large extent (I was especially fond of the background pattern that everyone always wanted to cover up). BUT it was broke. If you follow the forums, then you will have seen TONS of posts complaining about the homepage going back to it's intro. You will find a large percentage of users that mention quite frequently their avoidance of the homepage altogether. It may not have been technically broken, but for many it was apparently a bad or useless experience.
While developing the web app, they tried a different approach to the homepage. It has received tons of positive feedback from what I've seen on the forums. It's a much more modern and "standard" design and hopefully much more flexible. I'm personally excited about the possibilities of new content and jumping board for getting into whichever tool, layout or study your looking for. It was a natural step to bring this new design in to all the products to address the specific user feedback on the old design and to unify the design across all platforms.
Faithlife actively collects and reviews metrics on how the software is used. They frequently put out surveys and actively gather user feedback. There is always a Logos Next Wishlist thread where they seek feedback for the next big release. UNLIKE MANY COMPANIES, they have an active forum with active participation from employees and top level staff. I'm fairly certain that every post on the forums is seen by at least one employee, if not several. Faithlife has an active public beta program, a targeted private beta program. I fail to see where anyone would get the impression that Faithlife doesn't hear or care about user opinions. Most of the features in the final release are direct responses to user feedback. Homepage, Notes, Workflows, Search Templates. Every one of these address specific feedback from users to Faithlife on these forums about the software to improve home & notes, to help new users learn the software and offer directed study with workflows, to make constructing searches easier with search templates.
It's regrettable that not everything was ready at ship. I'm sure no one wanted that, but it's here. The best we can do is give productive feedback on its current state and stop flogging a dead horse or trying to put it back in the barn. Let's please move this forward and stop repeating the same argument at the risk of offending each other or building animosities, respectfully. Everyone's opinion is valuable and has been expressed. Let's please move forward.
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Thanks Randy for your providing you perspectives rather than simply saying you I have a different view so mine is wrong. One of the reasons I never took to the web app is because of the homepage it was a bug turn off and I was shell shocked when I saw this pur into the desktop application. Maybe I am not young and hip enough but the design does not look modern to me. I never had a problem with the old home page design and to be honest never saw the regular complaints you say existed. Sure things can always be improved but I thought the design and appearance matched the software. But I appreciate you helping me understand why you have a different view even if I don’t agree with you on a lot of points. After all we all come to the software for different needs.
Have a great day/evening in the Lord.
Randy W. Sims said:doc said:Denise said:doc said:- The old home page was not broken so didn’t require starting from scratch again.
- if you understood your customers you would have known customers expected these to be there when they loaded Logos 8 for the first time,
- The home page is the first impression a user gets of a new Logos release and putting to market a home page that is missing features and uncustomisable is a huge mistake I hope FL never make again.
- You bought off more than you could chew with the notes upgrade the home page should have been left alone.
- Going about things the way FL has with the Logos 8 release has been a message from the company to users that we take our.Customers for granted.
doc, how can you be so naive.
Logosians love cars ... used to be Cadallacs, but now Ferraris. Now, let's say the Italian car designer wanted to put in an engine that would go far faster. Future plans. So, they designed one, but it wasn't quite finished. But they put it in the new model anyway. And promised they'd try to finish it sometime .... priorities, priorities.
See?
Andrew's a good guy. And my old Ferrari 7 still does great at the track.
Not Naive, just don't like a home page that looks like a beta version of Logos 4 Kids. It looks like a sticker page where I can put all the collector cards that come in my cereal box.
I have no personal issue with Andrew or anyone at FL, it is the collective decision to scrap something that was not broken and looked professional to replace it with what we now have and remove a lot of basic functionality in the process and then not have not in a state ready to release to customers but release it to us anyway, not just release but sell it to us. I am sorry but this is treating your customer with disrespect when the CEO of a company signs off on doing this sort of thing and somebody needs to keep FL honest and call them out for unacceptable decisions like this one. Logos 8 home page is the worst home page in the history of this software and its introduction to customers was handled poorly. FL is a much better company capable of much more than what and how they dished it up Logos 8 to customers. And the CEO is nowhere to be seen.
I also like the old home page to a large extent (I was especially fond of the background pattern that everyone always wanted to cover up). BUT it was broke. If you follow the forums, then you will have seen TONS of posts complaining about the homepage going back to it's intro. You will find a large percentage of users that mention quite frequently their avoidance of the homepage altogether. It may not have been technically broken, but for many it was apparently a bad or useless experience.
While developing the web app, they tried a different approach to the homepage. It has received tons of positive feedback from what I've seen on the forums. It's a much more modern and "standard" design and hopefully much more flexible. I'm personally excited about the possibilities of new content and jumping board for getting into whichever tool, layout or study your looking for. It was a natural step to bring this new design in to all the products to address the specific user feedback on the old design and to unify the design across all platforms.
Faithlife actively collects and reviews metrics on how the software is used. They frequently put out surveys and actively gather user feedback. There is always a Logos Next Wishlist thread where they seek feedback for the next big release. UNLIKE MANY COMPANIES, they have an active forum with active participation from employees and top level staff. I'm fairly certain that every post on the forums is seen by at least one employee, if not several. Faithlife has an active public beta program, a targeted private beta program. I fail to see where anyone would get the impression that Faithlife doesn't hear or care about user opinions. Most of the features in the final release are direct responses to user feedback. Homepage, Notes, Workflows, Search Templates. Every one of these address specific feedback from users to Faithlife on these forums about the software to improve home & notes, to help new users learn the software and offer directed study with workflows, to make constructing searches easier with search templates.
It's regrettable that not everything was ready at ship. I'm sure no one wanted that, but it's here. The best we can do is give productive feedback on its current state and stop flogging a dead horse or trying to put it back in the barn. Let's please move this forward and stop repeating the same argument at the risk of offending each other or building animosities, respectfully. Everyone's opinion is valuable and has been expressed. Let's please move forward.
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doc said:Mark Barnes said:
I don’t think L8 was rushed. But it was time-limited. It was the best that could be done in a limited time period. Given that 8.1 is already out, and 8.2 won’t be far behind, I think ”best in the time available“ is OK.
Rushed or time limited it was not ready for release. FL once again bit off more than they could chew and have turned out their worst home page.
Doc, I appreciate your contributions here, and I trust the following comments will be taken in good spirit. You’re free to disagree, of course!
I don’t have a problem with you being critical of Faithlife or aspects of the software. That’s partly what the forums are for. But if you’re wondering why some people overreact to your posts, this post is a good example of why that happens. If you read again what you’ve said in reply to me, you‘ll see you’ve stated in absolute terms what is, in fact, your opinion. “It was not ready for release” is your opinion. You’re quite entitled to that opinion, but if you state it as definitively as that, you shouldn’t be surprised if people express strong disagreement (as, in their opinion, it isn’t true). You might therefore find it more constructive to say, “I don’t think it was ready for release“, or “it doesn‘t seem ready for release”. The same is true for “worst home page”. Again, that’s your opinion. It’s not unreasonable, and you‘re obviously entitled to hold and express that view. But, it’s stated as though it’s an incontrovertible fact, even though it’s simply an opinion. Perhaps if you‘re able to acknowledge when you’re expressing an opinion more clearly in the future, your posts (and criticisms) may be better received.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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doc said:
The thing about old customers is they have invested a lot of money in FL to enable them to be still in business so they could release Logos 8 and reach out to new customers. Both groups of customers need to be considered rather than turning upside existing customers experience of the software overnight and not even having that new interface ready to go to give to the old customers.
[Y]
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doc said:
Not Naive, just don't like a home page that looks like a beta version of Logos 4 Kids. It looks like a sticker page where I can put all the collector cards that come in my cereal box.
I have no personal issue with Andrew or anyone at FL, it is the collective decision to scrap something that was not broken and looked professional to replace it with what we now have and remove a lot of basic functionality in the process and then not have not in a state ready to release to customers but release it to us anyway, not just release but sell it to us. I am sorry but this is treating your customer with disrespect when the CEO of a company signs off on doing this sort of thing and somebody needs to keep FL honest and call them out for unacceptable decisions like this one. Logos 8 home page is the worst home page in the history of this software and its introduction to customers was handled poorly. FL is a much better company capable of much more than what and how they dished it up Logos 8 to customers. And the CEO is nowhere to be seen.
Agree.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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In my own life, products I don't like, I don't buy for myself, especially when there are alternatives that I prefer.
*goes back to enjoying Verbum 8*
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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David Taylor Jr said:doc said:
because they keep treating customers with disrespect, don't take your customers for granted
That hasn't happened here.
I am one of those who would 100% agree that when releasing 8 Faithlife showed little respect for existing users the exception being the warning about the changes to notes. They made a large number of changes, which to an existing user appeared arbitrary and were disruptive and only provided adequate documentation of the changes under pressure and after most had been discovered.
David Taylor Jr said:It amazes me that people are so enraged about the HOME PAGE.
From my perspective the Home Page is not an issue and, based on the posts that I have read, its not the biggest issue for many. Oddly it seems to have become a focal point for the issues with 8 without actually being the issue for many. I would suggest that the reason for this is because as a feature it is highly visible and this makes it an easy item to monitor for progress.
My only "issue" with the Home Page was actually the Reading Plan Workspace Issue which is fixed in 8.1 which means that I can have one less panel in my layout. That said, I really do get why so many people are upset by what is missing, there may be workarounds but I can see that for some users the current solution is more complex than the old one. Oddly, the removal of the old Home Page has made me realise that there are quite a few things that I did to get information that the Old Home Page made easier as far as I can tell based on the comments here.
What we still need is some clear communication from Faithlife on when the issues that they have agreed to fix will be fixed. If we don't get that then every six weeks there will be discussions like this because as things stand I'm not expecting much to change in 8.2 for the "missing" features because 8.1 has already demonstrated that Faithlife's priority is the new features like Workflows.
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.
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Graham Owen said:
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.
https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019191392-Changes-from-Logos-7-to-Logos-8 Though it is unreasonable to say when we can expect fixes because they probably do not know themselves. It changes as different things get prioritized. But that link talks about the differences and whether they plan to bring something back or rework it in 8. In some cases it even gives dates.
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SineNomine said:
In my own life, products I don't like, I don't buy for myself, especially when there are alternatives that I prefer.
*goes back to enjoying Verbum 8*
That's why it's important for prospective purchasers need to be aware of more than the adverts and fan excitement.
I remain impressed that Logos found time for their adverts on the home page (that they knew was an issue in earlier attempts), but not the switch to turn them off. I remain a happy 7 user until they learn a bit of honesty.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
I remain a happy 7 user until they learn a bit of honesty.
And how exactly were they dishonest? That is a pretty big accusation.
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David Taylor Jr said:Graham Owen said:
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.
https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019191392-Changes-from-Logos-7-to-Logos-8 Though it is unreasonable to say when we can expect fixes because they probably do not know themselves. It changes as different things get prioritized. But that link talks about the differences and whether they plan to bring something back or rework it in 8. In some cases it even gives dates.
That article is the one that was eventually published after multiple user complaints about the lack of communication. Let's be clear this was not published, as it should have been, as part of the release process but was the result of the pressure applied to Faithlife by users who were experiencing issues.
I understand why Faithlife are reluctant to commit to when things will be fixed but as a long term user with a significant investment in the product I think I deserve more than:
- "We’re still exploring how best to bring these back"
- "We plan to restore this functionality in a future release"
- "We don’t currently plan to restore this behavior"
I really do not believe that asking for greater clarity is unreasonable.
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Graham Owen said:David Taylor Jr said:Graham Owen said:
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.
https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019191392-Changes-from-Logos-7-to-Logos-8 Though it is unreasonable to say when we can expect fixes because they probably do not know themselves. It changes as different things get prioritized. But that link talks about the differences and whether they plan to bring something back or rework it in 8. In some cases it even gives dates.
That article is the one that was eventually published after multiple user complaints about the lack of communication. Let's be clear this was not published, as it should have been, as part of the release process but was the result of the pressure applied to Faithlife by users who were experiencing issues.
I did not say it was published before the release and they have admitted that they should have. But you said in your post you wish they would as if they had not done so which is why I provided the link.
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Graham Owen said:David Taylor Jr said:Graham Owen said:
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.
https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019191392-Changes-from-Logos-7-to-Logos-8 Though it is unreasonable to say when we can expect fixes because they probably do not know themselves. It changes as different things get prioritized. But that link talks about the differences and whether they plan to bring something back or rework it in 8. In some cases it even gives dates.
That article is the one that was eventually published after multiple user complaints about the lack of communication. Let's be clear this was not published, as it should have been, as part of the release process but was the result of the pressure applied to Faithlife by users who were experiencing issues.
I did not say it was published before the release and they have admitted that they should have. But you said in your post you wish they would as if they had not done so which is why I provided the link.
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David Taylor Jr said:Graham Owen said:David Taylor Jr said:Graham Owen said:
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.
https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019191392-Changes-from-Logos-7-to-Logos-8 Though it is unreasonable to say when we can expect fixes because they probably do not know themselves. It changes as different things get prioritized. But that link talks about the differences and whether they plan to bring something back or rework it in 8. In some cases it even gives dates.
That article is the one that was eventually published after multiple user complaints about the lack of communication. Let's be clear this was not published, as it should have been, as part of the release process but was the result of the pressure applied to Faithlife by users who were experiencing issues.
I did not say it was published before the release and they have admitted that they should have. But you said in your post you wish they would as if they had not done so which is why I provided the link.
"All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes."
Point 3 is not addressed in the article though; "for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes."
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David Taylor Jr said:Denise said:
I remain a happy 7 user until they learn a bit of honesty.
And how exactly were they dishonest? That is a pretty big accusation.
Actually not, these days. Current research, the more conservative/religious, the more amenable to dishonesty, if a higher purpose.
But I was referring to the honesty you get used to among close family, friends and church. Versus 'careful wording'. You know the game.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Graham Owen said:
for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes
Past experience has shown FL that there will be complaints if FL misses an expected delivery date.
If FL provided dates, I imagine that there would even be complaints about prioritization. "Why are you fixing X before Y?"
Not providing dates probably helps to minimize the amount of complaints FL would get.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Those in software industry know that there is no paradise on the earth.
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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PetahChristian said:
Past experience has shown FL that there will be complaints if FL misses an expected delivery date.
Past experience also shows that users get frustrated by Faithlife's lack of clear communications in these situations. There's a lot of past experience that Faithlife choose not to learn from or ignore.
PetahChristian said:If FL provided dates, I imagine that there would even be complaints about prioritization. "Why are you fixing X before Y?"
I think we all know that the continued development of new features is going to take priority over fixing what is missing or seen as broken so why not just be open and transparent? That's why these items are being considered while new Workflows are being promised...
PetahChristian said:Not providing dates probably helps to minimize the amount of complaints FL would get.
Sure the complaints will diminish through Faithlife's refusal to communicate but that does not resolve the issue here and the silence does not mean that the problems are resolved it just means that the frustrated, ignored, users got tired and cease to expect to be treated with respect.
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Graham Owen said:
I think we all know that the continued development of new features is going to take priority over fixing what is missing or seen as broken so why not just be open and transparent? That's why these items are being considered while new Workflows are being promised...
I don't think that is fair considering some of the complaints were addressed and resolved in 8.1.
Graham Owen said:Sure the complaints will diminish through Faithlife's refusal to communicate but that does not resolve the issue here and the silence does not mean that the problems are resolved it just means that the frustrated, ignored, users got tired and cease to expect to be treated with respect.
Faithlife does more than MOST companies with regard to allowing its users to have input on its software. Hardly a sign of disrespect.
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Denise said:
Versus 'careful wording'. You know the game.
Unfortunately far too often with FL there has been too many misunderstandings and marketing with seemingly misleading statements (often times correctable if you follow an asterisk). But small print and offers that can seem misleading may be well and good in the business world. I am not asking FL to be a bad business but asking it to strive for more transparency. To let your YES BE YES. I know when I purchased a verbum collection I did not pay close attention to an "asterisk" and was disappointed to know the 2 volumes i was receiving of a two volume set was 1 volume and what amounts to an introductory pamphlet. Yes had I clicked on the expansion I could have known that I was not getting the 2 volumes of the two volume set but I did not because I did not think it needed to know what two volumes I was getting. Now I am not accusing FL of intentionally be dishonest but I do think it is a bit misleading when you see something like LifeGuide Bible Studies: Complete Collection (139 vols.) (Expand) Only some resources from this collection are included (while it is clear enough if you look at it carefully if you have a window that is smaller and you can not see the only some resources tag on the far right column it is easy enough to think I am getting these 139 volumes in my package) Would it be so hard to say place it as LifeGuide Bible Studies: Complete Collection (8 of 139 vols.) (Expand). That way when you do a scroll of a massive collection you know immediately and there can be no misunderstandings. In my case it was an oddity in that the description called it a 2 volume set when in fact it was released as a multivolume collection, hence the ability to offer 2 volumes yet not give you the complete 2 volume set. I do not think FL is intending to be dishonest and indeed careful close looks you are in no way being mislead. But I also think marking may be in there trying to suggest by listing it as they do to make it appears a better value at first glance.
-dan
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David Taylor Jr said:Graham Owen said:
I think we all know that the continued development of new features is going to take priority over fixing what is missing or seen as broken so why not just be open and transparent? That's why these items are being considered while new Workflows are being promised...
I don't think that is fair considering some of the complaints were addressed and resolved in 8.1.
Of course the Release Notes don't detail everything but if you read the ones for 8.1 you can tell Workflows matters a lot to Faithlife right now.
David Taylor Jr said:
Graham Owen said:Sure the complaints will diminish through Faithlife's refusal to communicate but that does not resolve the issue here and the silence does not mean that the problems are resolved it just means that the frustrated, ignored, users got tired and cease to expect to be treated with respect.
Faithlife does more than MOST companies with regard to allowing its users to have input on its software. Hardly a sign of disrespect.
Allowing input is not a sign of respect, listening to and acting on it is. There are a lot of users here who feel that their voice has not and still is not being heard.
Faithlife may tolerate dissenting voices here but over a number of years they have consistently failed to improve the way that they communicate, they cause a problem, say sorry, solve or partially solve the issue, then its back to business as usual until they cause the next problem.
The obvious question is why don't we just move on? And the answer for me is that I have too much tied up in Logos Resources and simply cannot afford to right that off and start all over again with and alternative package.
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Graham Owen said:
but if you read the ones for 8.1 you can tell Workflows matters a lot to Faithlife right now.
Or one could say that completing the elements that were not finished for the initial release are their current focus - homepage, search templates, notes, and workflows are the elements I have noticed.
Graham Owen said:Allowing input is not a sign of respect, listening to and acting on it is.
I am in the position of being able to say that L8 finally has implemented all of the items I was actively promoting since L4 - not necessarily precisely as I would have done them but FL did hear and act. And in several areas there is still room for improvements. In areas I was not previously vocal about, I will become more vocal as I find additional weaknesses in Logos/Verbum.
Graham Owen said:There are a lot of users here who feel that their voice has not and still is not being heard.
This is true. But when one is not being heard, it is important to consider why you are not being heard and make changes so that one will be heard. There are suggestions that I write off as improbably for one or more of these reasons: the effort required to change the software does not justify the effort; the request is so tied to a particular way of working as to lack general user application; the request is too specific - working in one context but not across all platforms; the request for priority over xxxx fails to recognize that they require different skill sets and therefore use different staff . . .
Graham Owen said:they have consistently failed to improve the way that they communicate,
They have made progress - they still have a ways to go.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Or one could say that completing the elements that were not finished for the initial release are their current focus - homepage, search templates, notes, and workflows are the elements I have noticed.
Fair point and an equally valid interpretation of the Release Notes.
MJ. Smith said:I am in the position of being able to say that L8 finally has implemented all of the items I was actively promoting since L4
Good to know that your efforts have paid off.
MJ. Smith said:it is important to consider why you are not being heard and make changes so that one will be heard
Or give up and go back to being an occasional visitor here.
MJ. Smith said:the request for priority over xxxx fails to recognize that they require different skill sets and therefore use different staff
I get that, and that is why better communications is required, there are a multiple good reasons why Faithlife have made the choices that they did for 8 and why it will take time for them to address issues that have been raised. Skills is one, architectural choices will be another. I work as a Product Manager in the software industry so I understand the constraints but at the same time I know what the options are for managing these conflicts and high on the list is customer communications.
MJ. Smith said:They have made progress - they still have a ways to go.
As someone who in recent years is an occasional visitor here, rather than being the regular I once was, I am struggling to see the progress in communications, I have likened this release to that of 4 and for me that's how it has felt.
I have little doubt that by Logos 8.6 or 8.7 things will be fine but personally I still maintain that in its released state and with the lack of documentation on missing features Logos 8 should not have been auto installed in the same way that previous releases were under the connect subscription and that more of the "known issues" should have been communicated to established users, in addition to the email about Notes, so an informed decision could have been made.
At GA 8 was fine for new users and for those who wanted to be early adopters but for others it has proved unreasonably disruptive.
Fortunately for me I have enough experience with Logos to find workarounds for the issues that I have hit but I really do understand the concerns of those users who, for example, had become dependent on the Home Page as the easy entry point for Bible Study.
I do hope that Faithlife improve their communications especially for the next few scheduled updates, I honestly think that the long term users deserve this.
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I favored Logos 7 home page because I had complete control over it. That control has been taken away and that is where the problem lies. And while we wait on them to return the complete control to us people will complain. It's been the same every release. And I imagine it will be the same in Logos 9. And 10.
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Matt Hamrick said:
I favored Logos 7 home page because I had complete control over it. That control has been taken away and that is where the problem lies. And while we wait on them to return the complete control to us people will complain. It's been the same every release. And I imagine it will be the same in Logos 9. And 10.
How did you have more control over the homepage in 7 then what we have in 8.1?
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There were ads in the new home page including for foreign drugs. I do realize FL considers the software free but there is no way I want outside advertising within the application.
-dan
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Dan Francis said:
There were ads in the new home page including for foreign drugs. I do realize FL considers the software free but there is no way I want outside advertising within the application.
-dan
I have never seen any ads for anything other than FL related products. It comes from specific feeds on Faithlife. So there is no way a foreign drug was on there.
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David Taylor Jr said:
So there is no way a foreign drug was on there.
Wrong: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/175999.aspx. I didn't really care that much about the home page but was quite upset to see the home page being fed from the site without filtration or moderation.
You really don't have to be so quick to defend FL from every criticism. Quite a few of them are deserved, and I think they can handle it anyway.
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Sean said:David Taylor Jr said:
So there is no way a foreign drug was on there.
Wrong: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/175999.aspx. I didn't really care that much about the home page but was quite upset to see the home page being fed from the site without filtration or moderation.
Fair enough, but it sounds like it was an exceptional attack and they resolved it quickly.
Sean said:You really don't have to be so quick to defend FL from every criticism. Quite a few of them are deserved, and I think they can handle it anyway.
I don't. In fact, sometimes I criticize FL. However, some of the attacks on FL have been OUTRAGEOUS and ridiculous.
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David Taylor Jr said:Dan Francis said:
There were ads in the new home page including for foreign drugs. I do realize FL considers the software free but there is no way I want outside advertising within the application.
-dan
I have never seen any ads for anything other than FL related products. It comes from specific feeds on Faithlife. So there is no way a foreign drug was on there.
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/175998/1016473.aspx#1016473
Although admitedly it it was a hack and not by design but in inability to customize it meant there was no way to eliminate it.
-dan
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Dan Francis said:
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/175998/1016473.aspx#1016473
Although admitedly it it was a hack and not by design but in inability to customize it meant there was no way to eliminate it.
-dan
Glad we can customize it now [:)][Y]
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Mark Barnes said:doc said:Mark Barnes said:
I don’t think L8 was rushed. But it was time-limited. It was the best that could be done in a limited time period. Given that 8.1 is already out, and 8.2 won’t be far behind, I think ”best in the time available“ is OK.
Rushed or time limited it was not ready for release. FL once again bit off more than they could chew and have turned out their worst home page.
Doc, I appreciate your contributions here, and I trust the following comments will be taken in good spirit. You’re free to disagree, of course!
I don’t have a problem with you being critical of Faithlife or aspects of the software. That’s partly what the forums are for. But if you’re wondering why some people overreact to your posts, this post is a good example of why that happens. If you read again what you’ve said in reply to me, you‘ll see you’ve stated in absolute terms what is, in fact, your opinion. “It was not ready for release” is your opinion. You’re quite entitled to that opinion, but if you state it as definitively as that, you shouldn’t be surprised if people express strong disagreement (as, in their opinion, it isn’t true). You might therefore find it more constructive to say, “I don’t think it was ready for release“, or “it doesn‘t seem ready for release”. The same is true for “worst home page”. Again, that’s your opinion. It’s not unreasonable, and you‘re obviously entitled to hold and express that view. But, it’s stated as though it’s an incontrovertible fact, even though it’s simply an opinion. Perhaps if you‘re able to acknowledge when you’re expressing an opinion more clearly in the future, your posts (and criticisms) may be better received.
Mark I appreciate you are commenting for the reasons because you have always tried to do you best to treat people with respect even when you disagree. That said I have no idea what you are saying, I read above and simply see an expression of my experience, frustration and disappoint with Logos 8 and how decisions made by FL come across to me based on years of this sort of thing by FL. I really don't know how I can say it any other way. I am a simple man, giving simple honest feedback. I am not sure how I could be any less definitive of my experience and remain truthful and honest. It is my experience of the product and the impact FL's decisions regarding that product have had upon me as a customer.
I have had too many people over the years try and silence me for saying anything negative about FL and I have experienced and seen to many controlling pastors in churches destroy peoples lives, I have been bullied all of my life but when I don't expect to come to forum like this and have people tell me I can't express an opinion about a product I have paid for from this company, especially when those people are no more than customers themselves.
There is much more I could say about my life experience that contribute to me being at a point in my life where I express in simple terms with honesty what I feel, but this is not the time or place and people on these forums have shown by the way the relate to me they are not the people I can trust with those things I have been through. They are part of the problem and the reason why you see what I say as being to definitive and why I can't see how I can be any less definitive. And I will not allow them to bully me through both comments on these forums and in private messages off these forums. Yesterday I went and said my goodbyes to someone close to me whom cancer is going to take very soon. People on these forums who get so upset about another customer giving definitive feedback, as you describe it Mark, about a product they both purchased have no idea of what is really important in life - a little hint to them - it's not me being honest in my opinion of a product that we both happened to purchase.
And do you know why I am express my experience honestly, forthrightly, definitively, frankly, truly or whatever other adjective people wish to attach to me or judge me with - because I believe in this company, I believe in the people behind it, I believe it will server me through my lifetime and beyond that serve man others - but it has lost it's way it's become a big business detached from it's customers and that shows through its poor level of communication with it's customers. As one simple example is I have not been receiving any emails from this company other than those related to transactions for purchases, for over 12 months. I am signed up to all the mailing lists except proclaim which have no relevance to me, faithlife.com, logos.com etc are on my email safe senders list / white list or whatever your email program calls it. Every time I deal with someone form this company about it they either don't' come back to me or I have go through the same set of standard questions, they shrug their shoulders pass it onto customer service and I never hear another word on the issue. This is the sort of response you get on a problem from a company that has become detached from it's customers and not he sort of company FL use to be under previous names.
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doc said:
There is much more I could say about my life experience that contribute to me being at a point in my life where I express in simple terms with honesty what I feel
doc said:I have been bullied all of my life
doc said:Yesterday I went and said my goodbyes to someone close to me whom cancer is going to take very soon.
doc, thank you for sharing a bit of your life story. You have not said much but what you have said is significant. I'm so sorry to hear about how you have been bullied as it sounds like there is much pain behind that statement.
I have always said that "understanding someone's story provides a platform to extend grace". Unfortunately the forums don't really provide a good platform to understand someone's story. That's why I think it is a better on-line strategy to assume the best of the person who is writing knowing that I really have no idea of what has happened in their life up to that point, and especially what just happened.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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doc said:
Mark I appreciate you are commenting for the reasons because you have always tried to do you best to treat people with respect even when you disagree.
Thank you.
doc said:That said I have no idea what you are saying
Sorry if I wasn't clear :-). I'll try and put it another way.
Like many pastors, I'm sometimes involved in helping couples or others settle disputes. When that happens, the people involved often see things very differently. So in a dispute, it's very useful for the people involved to acknowledge that many of the frustrations they express are from their own perspective. As a pastor, I usually encourage people to acknowledge and verbalise that what they say is from their own perspective. So if someone says, "My husband treated me like dirt!", I might encourage them to say instead, "My husband did X, and it made me feel like dirt." The same point is being made, but acknowledging it's from their perspective takes some of the heat out of the discussion, and gives something objective to discuss with the husband: "did you do X?", "can you see how X might make someone feel like dirt?".
That can happen on the forums too. Person A might like the home page because it's less cluttered than before. Person B might think the home page isn't as good as in L7, but it's still quite usable. And Person C might think the home page is terrible.
Here's the thing: none of those people are wrong, from their own perspective.
If someone doesn't acknowledge their perspective, it's very easy to get into a circular "Yes it is" / "No it's not!" argument from which there's no escape. Something like this:
- The homepage is the worst ever!
- No it's not!
- Yes it is!
- No it's not!
- You're not listening to me!
- I am listening. But you're wrong. The home page is great!
- No it's not! It doesn't do X!
- But it does A, B and C instead! Who cares about X?
On the other hand, if someone acknowledges that their criticism is from their own perspective, it encourages the other person to see things from that perspective.
- The home page can no longer do X, which means that to me, it's the worst ever homepage
- That's a shame for you. I don't really use X, so I never realised that could be an issue before.
- Yeah, it's a real problem. I hope they fix it soon.
- Yeah, I agree. Come on Faithlife! While you're fixing my different problem, get this fixed too!
Now, obviously, it's not guaranteed to play out exactly like that! I've idealised the conversation. But hopefully, you can see the point. Acknowledging a criticism is from your own perspective usually leads to a much more constructive dialog because people are listening to your perspective, rather than trying to convert you to their perspective.
What you want is for Faithlife (and possibly other users) to see the problem from your perspective. If they do, hopefully they'll realise how important the issue is. And the best way you can help them to do that, is to acknowledge this is a personal perspective.
This might be done subtly: changing from "Logos 8 isn't ready for release" to "Logos 8 doesn't seem ready for release". Or it might be done more explicitly. "The home page can no longer for X, which I've relied on. I know that feature's coming, but it's absence makes it seem like Logos 8 isn't ready for release."
Either way, I think you'll get more people on side if you acknowledge that your criticisms made not apply to everyone and represent your personal perspective. And getting people on side is what matters here, I think.
PS: In case it's not clear, I'm not trying to censor you or tell you that you can't express an opinion. I'm simply saying that it's not always clear to other people — or at least to me — that what you're saying is your opinion (i.e. something from your perspective), and that can get people's backs up if they disagree with you. I don't want you to be less honest, less forthright or less frank. But I do want you to feel less bullied and less silenced when people respond to what you say, and I believe the suggestions I've made could be a real help to you in that.
If that is still not clear, or you're unhappy, I'm happy to follow up off-forum if you'd prefer: https://www.markbarnes.net/contact/
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Reminds me of this:
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This Is The Oldest Customer Complaint In History
4000 year old, "from the time of Adam". Are we any different now?
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Mark you seem to be saying be wishy washy. the truth from my perspective is this is the worst home page FL has ever released. From my perspective I am certain of that experienc, it’s not that it seems like it might be the worst. From my experience it is the worst and the product was not ready for release. And I am not alone in saying that. So why as a paying customer should I not be honest of my experience and instead make statement that appear like I am uncertain of my experience which would then put people on these forums, who think it’s their job to quash anything anyone says they don’t like, in an even stronger position over me because I am comment with uncertainty. As I said previously as a paying customer I should be able to provide honest, open, truthful feedback on these forums without having other customers tell me I don’t have a right to do so or without being wishy washy about it and thus putting my feedback in a position where it appears I am asking for it to be validated first which is exactly what I am not seeking from other customer.
Ths is not a marriage relationship so your analogy doesn’t really make any sense in this situation though it was well intentioned. I don’t see others being wishy washy when they act outside of the forum guiibes and try to tear me down and they and others continue to make sniper remarks in posts they make. Start with telling them to pull their head in since they indicate they have it all so together. But I will continue to be open and honest in feedback of my experience to FL because I owe it to them to do so and I will not low myself to be pushed around on this forum. I’ve had enough of it in my personal life I’m not allowing to be done to me on a customer forum by other customers.
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doc said:
I should be able to provide honest, open, truthful feedback on these forums without having other customers tell me I don’t have a right to do so or without being wishy washy
We are not only from different sides of the earth, but also of different generations. I was taught that in giving feedback, I should consider first it's usefulness. If I can't word it in a constructive manner, don't say it at all. Second, I should consider whether it is a genuine flaw or merely something that goes against my preferences as the two require very different modes of expression. Third, be polite and considerate to all who might see the feedback. Fourth, it I must express my frustration, do so with a bit of humor ... as the frustration is on me not the company; only I can control the frustration.
From your post, you were obviously taught a different set of standards. The question of when selecting from different sets of standards is always: (a) which is most compatible with a truly Christian life (b) which is most effective (c) which is more apt to lead to a care-free life (d) which reflects best how you wish to be seen by others?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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doc said:
... the truth from my perspective is this is the worst home page FL has ever released.
Please elaborate on your perspective. Please help us understand what makes the new Home Page the worst ever for you. What is missing/changed that adversely affected your Home Page usage ?
Simply missing from honest feedback is what annoys/hurts about new Home Page, which prevents others from commiserating/sharing desire for improvement. From a FL perspective, if initial new Home Page is the worst ever, then any improvement should be better. Also, FL has no clue how to improve "worst ever" perspective (practically know a paying customer is hurting, but no idea how to really help so improvements that benefit others provide no value for a hurting customer).
Disclosure: due to many layout and home page crashes in previous versions, personally open Logos/Verbum to a blank layout, which is useful for troubleshooting crash cause(s). For several friendly forum discussions, have opened Home Page plus replicated some crashes. For me, if Home Page was removed, would not miss it (since previous/current Home Page do not help my application usage). Thankful for 8.1 including Explore customization so can improve Home Page appearing quicker by turning off many online feeds.
Personally still dreaming of color theme options for Faithlife user interface so created UserVoice suggestion => Add Themes to personalize colors/colours and improve readability (has 43 votes) while UserVoice => Night Mode for PC/Mac has 292 votes. Theme/Night Mode would include color options for Home Page plus the rest of the application user interface. Cool color choices by young people can be difficult for older people to use (since older eyes have more color/depth/focus perception issues).
OT: this thread has helped me while preparing for a "Celebrate Recovery" weekly meeting. Thankful for two resources in my library:
Your First Step to Celebrate Recovery: How God Can Heal Your Life
Soul Rape: Recovering Personhood after Abuse
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Thank you Smiling, for the Ewart book recommendation.
Not to hurt Logos, but if anyone is money-constrained, Another Co is badly lower.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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doc said:
Mark you seem to be saying be wishy washy.
Not at all. I'm suggesting that feedback is more powerful when it's constructive and self-aware. That's the opposite of wishy-washy.
doc said:So why as a paying customer should I not be honest of my experience and instead make statement that appear like I am uncertain of my experience which would then put people on these forums, who think it’s their job to quash anything anyone says they don’t like, in an even stronger position over me because I am comment with uncertainty.
I haven't suggested you appear you are uncertain of your experience. I've suggested the opposite — being really clear about your own experience while acknowledging the possibility that not everyone will see it the same way.
At the end of the day, it's entirely your call. So long as you act within the forum guidelines (which IMO you are), you're obviously free to keep on posting as you do. But equally, other customers are free to disagree with you, and they're free to say so. And Faithlife are free to weigh up everyone's concerns and act in a way they believe makes the biggest difference to the most people. I think that being constructive and building consensus is the best way to effect change. You're free to disagree and act accordingly. But personally, I think you'll be less effective in bringing about the change you want if you do.
doc said:I don’t see others being wishy washy when they act outside of the forum guiibes and try to tear me down and they and others continue to make sniper remarks in posts they make.
I don't recall seeing posts like that — although of course I don't read every post. If you feel, for the sake of fairness, I should respond to a particular post now or in the future, you have my contact details above. But I can only offer advice, of course (as I'm doing here). I have no authority over anyone else.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Philana,
Could you please pin this to to the top of the Logos 8 Forums? SR-1 & SR-2 are there, but I had to search for this one.
Thank you!
Happy 9th day of Christmas!
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