Usefulness of Logos 4

Just when I was getting used to the complexities of the CD-based Logos Scholar's Edition, Logos introduced its new 4th edition. Now I find I can't do anything I could do before. Logos seems to have simplified everything to the point of making nothing available. Even after having studied the tutoring videos, I can't find any of the rich levels of research I used to enjoy.

In consequence, I've given up my attempts to use the new system. I ignore it entirely and all offers to add new works. I don't even open it anymore. What a tragedy. I'm finding that my iPod Touch is offering better services.

Mel Sanford

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Mark Barnes

Mel, I'm at a bit of a loss to explain your experience. It certainly wasn't mine. Do remember though that you can go back to the 'old' Logos at any time, and even have both installed on your computer at the same time.

Having said that, if you asked a specific question: "I used to do xxxxx, now I can't work out how to do it in Logos 4", then we might be able to help.

TCBlack

Sorry to hear that Melvyn,

L4 represents some pretty dramatic changes, which means that some retraining of the end user will be in order to get the full benefit out of it.

If you don't mind, give us a specific item or scenario that you're used to doing in L3 and we'll all be happy to show you how it works in L4.

Of course there are still a few items being built which are not yet in L4; in which case you'll see them listed under "missing items" linked in my sig.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134768#Comment_134768

Mel, many of us took a while to get through the learning curve on Logos 4, because it is such a dramatic departure from the design of Logos 3. But just about everything you used to be able to do in L3 is available in L4 (with the exception of a very few features that haven't been ported over yet). Just ask, and we'll be glad to show you how to do it.

Also, check out the Logos wiki for help on doing specific tasks. It might be more your style of learning than the videos. The Table of Contents is where you'll find links to the most fleshed out parts of the wiki, but there's lots to explore all over it.

The time spent learning the new version really does pay off. I hope you'll give it another try and stick with it until it begins to become familiar.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134804#Comment_134804

I think Mel's frustration is much the same as many of us. Not speaking for Mel, since I do not know what he is specifically speaking about, but there is a lot left to be desired in V4.

I've been around with it from day 1 of Beta and we are still talking about the need for many of the same things some 8 months later....

Then where Mel is asked what it is exactly he's missing, a sincere gesture and meant to be helpful... When others do continue to bring up missing features or what V4 is missing that get jumped about rehashing old arguments.

Me personally, I love the concept of V4, but it lacks most useful features of V3: Sermon File, PBB, Smart Tags, Printing and user control over what to update, download and manage what is in the cloud. These are all things voiced by the original group of Beta testers as concerns and needs, yet they have been pushed off now until the 3rd quarter of 2010... So basically for a gold print version about a year later. Not to mention that 2 of these items are based on almost all comments not going to get any attention, being Smart Tags and User Control....

Smart Tags - the excuse given was Microsoft is discouraging use or something and another was they would only work in old versions of Office, yet when I and others pointed out that we were Beta Testing Office 10 and that they worked in 2007 and the Beta version it seemed to go without response.

User Control - See the cloud thread for the nonsense about rehashing old arguments there...

Old arguments for greatly desired user control and productivity tools would disappear if and when the consumers see some action taken on these items, most that were scheduled for release by the end of the month.

Then the opinion always seems to go back to well you can still use V3... Maybe but not for all the V4 crossgrade and upgrade resources that many paid for and are still not available for V3... (Unless I'm missing something on V3 ready resources that I cannot download)

So that just one long time users input on the frustration with lack of useful and needed tools. If V4 is going to be the complete Bible Study software, I should not have to rely on alt-tab, copy-paste and 3rd party programs to do what the old version did by itself. While I do enjoy some of the new features of V4, the joy of said features dims with what is lacking....STILL!

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134836#Comment_134836

I've been around with it from day 1 of Beta and we are still talking about the need for many of the same things some 8 months later..

Mel, I want to give you a counter perspective to that given by Frank. It is frustrating that some features that are critical to some of us are still missing. I personally don't care about printing, Smart Tags, user control in Frank's sense. What I need most are import/export functions, PBB's, tables in notes ... Rosie probably would give you another list, Mark another, Thomas yet another ... until you get a mix of patterns of how people use Logos and therefore what matters most to them.

However, if you look at all the lists, you won't find problems in finding and using the information necessary for deep, serious Bible study. Different people learn in different ways. Give us specific examples of what you want and we'll show you how to get there. Well we will if it doesn't involve the Amharic Bible (sorry Tes, I will get to asking for it after a few more early versions.[:D])

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134882#Comment_134882

Melvyn Sanford, I love Logos 4, but it is limited at this time, so I just use Libronix 3, It is so much easier using a proven program with all the resources I need. I really look forward to the day when Logos 4 has all the main features back, but until that day I really enjoy Libronix 3.

On most days I am either teaching others how to use bible software or using it myself for 3-6 hours a day, 7 days a week. To be honest Logos has blown it with Logos 4, they may recover in several months, but there is no way I could currently recommend Logos 4 as a persons only bible study program. It is missing too many features, there are too many bugs and updates, and most computers just do not run the program well. I hope things change in the next few months.

I know they are working hard to get things right, and I do see some progress.

I also, still recommend Logos 4 to people, but only if they also get Libronix 3 too!!!

I felt your pain, but I got around it by just using Libronix 3!

In Christ,

Jim

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134836#Comment_134836

I don't want to get into another debate about which are the "most useful" features of L3, and whether they're still missing from L4. That's because Melvyn's problem doesn't appear to be missing features, but what he considers to be a lack of usability. He's using his iPod Touch instead, so he's not missing Sermon File, printing, PBBs, SmartTags, or User Control.

We can very safely say that Logos 4 will easily do (almost?) everything the iPod will do, and so much more beside. I think I can honestly say that the time needed to learn how to use Logos to that level of functionality is relatively minimal and well worth the investment.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134926#Comment_134926

Mark, I don't think we know for sure what his problems is other than he states this very clearly.

"Logos seems to have simplified everything to the point of making nothing available.

I am sure that statement is a little bit over board, but it does indicate that part of his usability problem could be related to important missing features.

Those missing features made Logos 4 not an option for me at this time, but Libronix 3 fills my needs, and I want to make sure that Melvyn is aware of using Libronix 3 as an option.

Of course he could need better training, but the fact that he said he studied the videos and was still having problems tends to make me look some where other than training, but that could be the problem.

In Christ,

Jim

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134941#Comment_134941

deleted by author, as it didn't contribute anything useful to the thread

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134948#Comment_134948

I've just figured out why there are so many denominations. Look at how well we can argue over what the original poster meant[:O]

Seriously, there are posters on this thread who seem to have lost track of the purpose of the forums - to help people use Logos and to communicate suggestions and bugs to Logos. The original poster indicated that he was having trouble finding the features that he felt he needed. He was asked to provide examples so he could get advice on how to meet his need.

Other than making us look like an argumentative, unfriendly, unhelpful group I fail to see what other peoples' gripes add to the thread. I feel badly that I may have turned the thread this direction when I tried to counteract a gripe session post.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134951#Comment_134951

Seriously, there are posters on this thread who seem to have lost track of the purpose of the forums - to help people use Logos and to communicate suggestions and bugs to Logos. The original poster indicated that he was having trouble finding the features that he felt he needed. He was asked to provide examples so he could get advice on how to meet his need.

Other than making us look like an argumentative, unfriendly, unhelpful group I fail to see what other peoples' gripes add to the thread. I feel badly that I may have turned the thread this direction when I tried to counteract a gripe session post.

Martha,

I'm not guilty on this PARTICULAR thread, but none the less...I have been guilty of this.

We do (too often) give a graphic illustration of what NOT to do....sad to say.

I appreciate your perspective, and I thank God that he uses people like you to affect me....and hopefully change my behavior....

God bless,

bob

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134951#Comment_134951

If your definition of other people's gripes is my mentioning the useful features I miss, I apologize but will not be quiet about things missing that would make V4 the absolute best Bible Study experience possible! Maybe things wouldn't get argumentative if so many didn't get so negative about those who don't wear their rose colored glasses and want to be real about some serious lacking of key features...

I've just figured out why there are so many denominations. Look at how well we can argue over what the original poster meant

Seriously, there are posters on this thread who seem to have lost track of the purpose of the forums - to help people use Logos and to communicate suggestions and bugs to Logos. The original poster indicated that he was having trouble finding the features that he felt he needed. He was asked to provide examples so he could get advice on how to meet his need.

Other than making us look like an argumentative, unfriendly, unhelpful group I fail to see what other peoples' gripes add to the thread. I feel badly that I may have turned the thread this direction when I tried to counteract a gripe session post.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134991#Comment_134991

If your definition of other people's gripes is my mentioning the useful features I miss, I apologize but will not be quiet about things missing that would make V4 the absolute best Bible Study experience possible! Maybe things wouldn't get argumentative if so many didn't get so negative about those who don't wear their rose colored glasses and want to be real about some serious lacking of key features...

See what I mean about God using Martha's influence for change in me?

3 months ago I wouldn't have missed the opportunity to fight back in the face of the incredible bias in a statement that insinuates that "anyone who says anything positive about Logos is only "using rose colored glasses" and not living in the real world"....as if only those who are negative are "grounded in reality" or the obvious bias filled statement that that "serious features" = those that I personally care about.

But now..I can happily go by a post like this and just let it roll off of my back...

[:D]

Baby steps...

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134992#Comment_134992

Concerning the usefulness of Logos 4, I am wondering if any of you have seen any independent reviews since it came out comparing the usefulness to Logos 4 to Libronix 3 and bible software put out by other companies?

I would consider my self far from being independent, since the only bought software I use any more is Libronix 3 and Logos 4. I have plan on spending and additional 400.00 plus on Logos this month which will put me with over 3000 dollars invested in Logos in the last 2-3 years. But this is what I have seen happen since Logos 4 has come out.

My experience dealing with 100's of bible software users has shown that at least two of those other products are getting more useful and becoming more like Libronix 3, only easier to use. On the other hand they still are not nearly as useable as Libronix 3.

However, compared to Logos 4 some of those new programs are more useful, even though Logos 4 is easier to use, and out preforms them by far in the areas where it is completed.

Areas where Logos 4 loses out, are the following. It does not work well on many of the computers people actually own and use. Many people do not have constant internet contact and those that do, do not like the constant updates and bugs that Logos 4 currently have. Logos 4 is missing key features that some people use every day.

Of course this really bothers me, because even with it's current problem I believe a combo between Logos 4 and Libronix 3 blows away all other systems, and that one day people that are turning to other programs out of frustration will be sorry for changing. But is is very hard to argue about how great Logos 4 is and how they need it, when the only computer system they have can hardly run the program, or when the don't have constant contact with the internet, so they can download the newest bug fix, or when they just want a program that prints!

My experience so far, is that unsatisfied Logos 4 users can easily be converted to Libronix users and safely ride out the storm, while enjoy Libronix 3.

One of the things that bothers me is that some users can not believe that Logos 4 could be of less use to some, than Libronix 3, but it is true, believe it or not the computer issue is a problem for many, and if you like to print things, not having a print option is a big deal.

Some of these same folks consider it to be negative to agree with those having issues with Logos 4, and showing them they can use Libtonix until L4 is more useful to them than L3 is.

It also bothers me that just because I have a different opinion about Logos 4 some would consider that to be so negative, that they would rather I did not post. Well just because we disagree does not mean I don't love Logos. In fact pointing out that we disagree can be used either as a negative or a positive.

If Logos uses this kind of feedback they will have a better picture of what is going on with folks that are trying to use their software, but can not jump over some problem. Who knows maybe they will be able to get that Problem out of the way.

In Christ,

Jim

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134951#Comment_134951

I've just figured out why there are so many denominations. Look at how well we can argue over what the original poster meant

lol [:D]

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/134992#Comment_134992

Incredible Bias? Insinuation? So I am bias because I believe there is much work to be done to make V4 as useful as V3 and use the forums as a place to voice that opinion and concern...

Then you say I insinuate something that has nothing to do with my statement. Plain and simple there are those on the boards that see no wrong or no lacking with V4 who jump on those who do, sorry but that is wearing rose colored glasses and the people expressing their opinions are trying to be real instead of silent and just going with the flow while they don't use or despise V4 for what is cannot do.

Please do not twist my words and make them into something you want to make them mean. I do not and never have used notes, rarely use PBB and many other tweaks and features that others have been asking for more and more. I have no Ipod/Ipad/Iphone and don't get on them. I respect and support users to continue to voice their displeasure with missing features and whatever they feel V4 is lacking... For me the top 3 are and always have been Smart Tags, Sermon File and Printing all very useful and timesaving features, so I will continue to "rehash" "nag" "whine" and whatever other name those who want to judge those of us who want more from V4 can come up with... Especially when the excuse for Smart Tags was misleading... When Printing has been the top on uservoice from day 1 and is towards the bottom of the list for the end of now the 3rd quarter... And Sermon File is still missing...

BTW yes it is frustrating when not one version of Logos 4 is complete and we here about Ipad, Android, Windows Phone, etc.. being talked about... I understand the concept of wanting to "be in the market", but IF it is taking time and resources away from finishing the product for those that were there long before any of this new technology was around.... Well...

If your definition of other people's gripes is my mentioning the useful features I miss, I apologize but will not be quiet about things missing that would make V4 the absolute best Bible Study experience possible! Maybe things wouldn't get argumentative if so many didn't get so negative about those who don't wear their rose colored glasses and want to be real about some serious lacking of key features...

See what I mean about God using Martha's influence for change in me?

3 months ago I wouldn't have missed the opportunity to fight back in the face of the incredible bias in a statement that insinuates that "anyone who says anything positive about Logos is only "using rose colored glasses" and not living in the real world"....as if only those who are negative are "grounded in reality" or the obvious bias filled statement that that "serious features" = those that I personally care about.

But now..I can happily go by a post like this and just let it roll off of my back...

Baby steps...

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135040#Comment_135040

Jim,

People (Like me) who have good experiences are not naieve, and we DO know that some don't like L4 software as it stands today.

We are NOT just championing it like blind unthinking drones programmed by "the man"...ok?

I don't speak for everyone when I say this but this is why (in my mind) we get lots of "rebuttels" to the negative comments.

The negative comments are put forth without the qualifier "for me...logos just isn't what I prefer..." but instead are put out there like dogmatic pronouncements....such as:

"...L4 is garbage compared to L3...Logos really dropped the ball!"

That's a MUCH different statement than:

"...for the way I like to work, L4 is just not floating my boat the way L3 did; I like this feature of L3 and that feature of L3...."

Can you see that even in your own paragraph that you wrote (as nice as it is)...you done a little of the former?

This is NOT a slam on you, brother...and possibly you just meant your comments in a very personal way and assumed that we'd all know what you meant.

If those who are negative (and positive for that matter), would phrase their likes and dislikes in that way...then I'm sure that a lot of the Logos Denominations would vanish....we'd all just be stating what we prefer, and not what's a gem or a piece of garbage.

Just some thoughts brother... [:D]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135059#Comment_135059

Frank, brother calm down a little...see my post above ok?

(and PS: my post was a little tongue in cheek ok? a lame attempt at some humor)

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135060#Comment_135060

Robert Pavich, you addressed your comment to me and I really don't understand what I said that caused you to address it to me, can you please show me which of my comments you are talking about.

In Christ,

Jim

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135032#Comment_135032

Robert Pavich, you addressed your
comment to me and I really don't understand what I said that caused you
to address it to me, can you please show me which of my comments you are
talking about.

Jim,

No problem, keep in mind that I did say that this "wasn't a slam on you..."

This was one:

One of the things that bothers me is that some users can not believe
that Logos 4 could be of less use to some, than Libronix 3, but it is
true, believe it or not the computer issue is a problem for many, and if
you like to print things, not having a print option is a big deal.

That's why I said that we DO know that some like L3 more...we're not oblivious.

And you said:

On the other hand they still are not nearly as useable as Libronix 3.

That's one of the "dogmatic statements" that I referred to. (as opposed to this statement: "...on the other hand...for me and the way I like to work, they are still not as useable as L3")

This also was one:

Some of these same folks consider it to be negative to agree with those having issues with Logos 4, and showing them they can use Libtonix until L4 is more useful to them than L3 is.

Which is why I pointed out that we know that some people don't like it...but many times it's not phrased as a preference. Upon looking at your sentence here..I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with you and say that I was off base on this.

It also bothers me that just because I have a different opinion about Logos 4 some would consider that to be so negative, that they would rather I did not post. Well just because we disagree does not mean I don't love Logos. In fact pointing out that we disagree can be used either as a negative or a positive.

It wasn't the agreeing or disagreeing that I had an issue with...it was the "dogmatism" of the statements that should have been phrased as preferences.

Jim, one last thing I'd like to make sure you understand. Your post was kind and gentile and probably I was just worn out from the "Logos is using the cloud!" thread and took my agressions out on you, brother...

Now that I look at your post and think about it....this is pretty respectful and mild compared to some.

So, don't take this personally ok?

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135178#Comment_135178

Robert, of course I took your comments personally they were addressed to me. BUT don't get me wrong, that does not mean I thought bad of them. I just wanted to know some examples of where you thought I was out of line, after seeing them, my comment about your comment, is to please make sure you judge your posts by the same standard.

I also want to point something out about the terms that are being used, I know some might find them offensive, but all comments have some kind of context, so when I hear some one say Logos 4 is the best all around program ever, I know He or She is talking about that is His or Her view of it. If some one else says it is garbage compared to Libronix 3, I know that is only their view of it and I also know something about the state of their mind.

I do not get offended by such expressions, I am actually glad to know the extra information. It can many times help me to help them. I saw another thread started by you that deals with the use of this kind of language, I understand your point of view, and I noticed a lot of people with stars by their names were agreeing with you, but I say maybe they should not let such things bother them, instead turn things around by using this extra information to help the person. For example: This program is garbage. Why do you say it is garbage what really bothers you about the program. You and I know the program isn't garbage, but we also know this person is hurting.

People that come to these forums and are having serious problems with Logos 4, are hurting people, some how their great hopes of bible study have been dashed. I want to help them get back on that road to being able to use what they have until Logos 4 can make them happy.

Please keep in mind I spent a number of years coaching pro mountain bikers and have been around a lot of people that say some mean things and do some mean things, so hearing some one say Logos is garbage really doesn't hardly catch my attention.

By the way on a side note, one of my bikers will be on America's Got Talent in the next few weeks. I am kind of happy for him, it is doing something different than competition and having a great time. He will be riding his bike, he is the first bike rider to ever make it on the broadcast part of the show.

In Christ,

Jim

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135337#Comment_135337

I also want to point something out about the terms that are being used, I know some might find them offensive, but all comments have some kind of context, so when I hear some one say Logos 4 is the best all around program ever, I know He or She is talking about that is His or Her view of it.

You are right, Jim, I need to remember that...thank you.

I noticed a lot of people with stars by their names were agreeing with you, but I say maybe they should not let such things bother them, instead turn things around by using this extra information to help the person.

Also true brother...

Please keep in mind I spent a number of years coaching pro mountain bikers and have been around a lot of people that say some mean things and do some mean things, so hearing some one say Logos is garbage really doesn't hardly catch my attention.

Then it's obvious that I lack your resilience.

Brother, thanks for enlightening me...hopefully in the future people will think about their phrasing, and I can mentally insert the words "this is just my opinion" when I read those types of messages.

God bless,

bob

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135385#Comment_135385

Robert, please notice one more thing that I have notice about the posts that contain the type comments we are talking about.

Most of them have a very low post count!!!

The majority of these people are going to respond with these terms, if for no other reason than, number one they are hurt and mad, and number two they have no idea that any one else is sick and tired of hearing such "wild claims". They have no idea how many other posters you or anyone else have dealt with that have called the program garbage, use less or said that it stinks.

Most of these people know one thing, they have a problem with Logos and have just found the forums, they are frustrated and think there is no hope of the program ever meeting their needs. Some of them are poor and spent a large amount of money on a program they had hoped would help them to understand the bible. For what ever reason it hasn't worked for them so their only contact with Logos is bad!

They feel like they were ripped off!

The responds given by us will go a long way in either confirming what they were afraid of or giving them some hope that their problem with Logos can be overcome.

In Christ,

Jim

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135520#Comment_135520

The responds given by us will go a long way in either confirming what they were afraid of or giving them some hope that their problem with Logos can be overcome.

Jim,

another good point. I'll really try and take all of the advice I've gotten to heart..its' been good advice.

Thanks again brother...

bob

AndyTheGreek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135525#Comment_135525

It's a shame Melvyn hasn't given any specifics of what he used to do in Logos3 that he can't do in V4 - maybe some of the experienced V4 users could help him find a way to emulate them or be able to assure him that support for those features is coming...

I can't wait (well, actually I can because I have to), for PBB and Sentence Diags. Better printing would be nice and, while we're at it, a top notch reporting Tool with PDF export would be fantastic. And then an e-book builder that lets me sell the fruits of my research online with a built in website designer and e-commerce store...

Sigh. We can all dream. Being British, I hope V4 will eventually access my online tea making hardware and make regular brews for me...

I have to admit I don't pay much attention to the Logos4 doesn't do x and y and z threads anymore - I have come to view it as a brand new technology and that the V4 is a bit of a misnomer. Logos4 will mature and get better and better. I'm sure the Logos team will address the various issues that keep getting raised and will find solutions that please, at least, a large proportion of us.

In the meantime - I say be patient. My view is that there is no substitute for sincere, honest and open minded Bible study and that Logos is a tool to make it easier to do the research bit. Even if V4 is not as efficient or feature rich as v3 in the end I can still use it to delve deeply into the Word. Then comes the real challenge - applying what I have learned...

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135747#Comment_135747

It's a shame Melvyn hasn't given any specifics of what he used to do in Logos3 that he can't do in V4 - maybe some of the experienced V4 users could help him find a way to emulate them or be able to assure him that support for those features is coming...

I can't wait (well, actually I can because I have to), for PBB and Sentence Diags. Better printing would be nice and, while we're at it, a top notch reporting Tool with PDF export would be fantastic. And then an e-book builder that lets me sell the fruits of my research online with a built in website designer and e-commerce store...

Sigh. We can all dream. Being British, I hope V4 will eventually access my online tea making hardware and make regular brews for me...

I have to admit I don't pay much attention to the Logos4 doesn't do x and y and z threads anymore - I have come to view it as a brand new technology and that the V4 is a bit of a misnomer. Logos4 will mature and get better and better. I'm sure the Logos team will address the various issues that keep getting raised and will find solutions that please, at least, a large proportion of us.

In the meantime - I say be patient. My view is that there is no substitute for sincere, honest and open minded Bible study and that Logos is a tool to make it easier to do the research bit. Even if V4 is not as efficient or feature rich as v3 in the end I can still use it to delve deeply into the Word. Then comes the real challenge - applying what I have learned...

Andy...

You must be getting smarter....cause I keep agreeing with you..... [:D]

AndyTheGreek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135765#Comment_135765

You must be getting smarter....cause I keep agreeing with you.....

Nah! It's cos you're learning![:)].

I wanted to clarify one thing: I'm not saying we shouldn't report issues, make suggestions, etc etc. And if we have concerns we should express them. It's in our and Logos' interest for the product to improve. But maybe we (and I definitely include me in the 'we') need to improve in the way we report these things and the way we respond to others' suggestions and, even, complaints...

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135765#Comment_135765

Andy...

You must be getting smarter....cause I keep agreeing with you.....

Bob, I think we finally got through to Andy. [:)]

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135773#Comment_135773

Nah! It's cos you're learning!.

I never knew he could do that.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135792#Comment_135792

I never knew he could do that.

That was ice cold... [:'(]

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135806#Comment_135806

That was ice cold...

Sorry....couldn't resist...

Mike Childs

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and their "say" about it. Everyone deserves to have their opinion respected.

But, hey, even if you prefer Logos 3, the upgrade to L4 probably got you some wonderful new resources for Logos 3. After all, we paid for the books we bought, not the engine of L4 - well maybe about $70 for the engine if you did the minimal upgrade. Why not celebrate the new books for Logos 3?

Why not keep doing what you were doing before, only with lots of new books, while you wait for Logos to get L4 right, in your opinion?

777

Just when I was getting used to the complexities of the CD-based Logos Scholar's Edition, Logos introduced its new 4th edition. Now I find I can't do anything I could do before. Logos seems to have simplified everything to the point of making nothing available. Even after having studied the tutoring videos, I can't find any of the rich levels of research I used to enjoy.

In consequence, I've given up my attempts to use the new system. I ignore it entirely and all offers to add new works. I don't even open it anymore. What a tragedy. I'm finding that my iPod Touch is offering better services.

Mel Sanford

Hi Mel,

I know exactly how you feel. I very seldom use ~any~ Logos resources anymore. I found the move to L4 rushed and the software wanting. Aftrer months, the software for L4 has not shown any great leaps in usability. I don't like how there is so much integrated "social media" fluff either. How that could be a priority over notes and printing is beyond me. When Bob P. noted that Logos 4 had just about all of the features done and he was starting to think about Logos 5, that floored me. No more money for Logos is flying out of my wallet. Buying their products now makes me feel like an enabler for their bad habits.

L4 *did* serve to show me one thing, and that ONE thing was to realize what a convoluted mess installing L3 was, with all my add-ons. Too bad energy was not spent on making L3 install like L4 does. I won't bother to install L3 anymore because it's not supported. L4 looks like it's going to take years to get working right and with any speed and a lot of that stems from the extremely poor choice of using JIT code. I've also noticed that Logos has taken a page from Wordpress in many of the directions that it goes in but Logos is not able to pull it off. Someone at Logos sure likes Wordpress though, and it shows up in many areas of how Logos handles their customer service, social networking, and in the code itself.

This post will likely tick off the folks that are hypnotized by the kool-aid. I don't care. I paid a lot of loot over the years for Logos resources - and I don't sit on my padded backside with a book allowance. Since L4 came out I have been having a ball buying REAL BOOKS.

Logos is going to have to pull a rabbit out of something before I'll send them another dime. And I'm not griping or venting - this is how I feel about it all day long every day and have felt since L4 was released.

Since I am not a man-pleaser I have no trouble at all expressing my opinion.

And yes Mel, it is a tragedy. L4 is kind of like WindowsME.

Have a nice day!

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135959#Comment_135959

L4 looks like it's going to take years to get working right and with any speed and a lot of that stems from the extremely poor choice of using JIT code.

This is just not true that "a lot of that" is due to JIT code. Comparing the sophistication of the software stack (architectures used) between L3 and L4 is night and day. Many User Interface functions in L4 could never be implemented in L3. On very old machines there may not be the ability to realize some of the advantages of JIT coding, but there are some very real advantages in performance, such as the following:

The JIT compiler knows precisely which CPU the user has installed in their computer causing the JIT compiler to produce native instructions that are specific to the user's machine. When you use an unmanaged (not-JIT) compiler, the compiler usually emits code for an Intel Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium III, or Pentium 4 processor. In a complex application this can make a big difference. And despite the pain of people with older computers, people are buying new computers at a very high obsolescence rate. If 70% of the consumers have a computer 3 years old or less (just for example), people with 5 year old computers will be at a great disadvantage because they are not a viable market for anyone.

The JIT compiler knows if the machine has a single CPU or multiple CPUs installed. If a single CPU is installed, certain thread synchronization mechanisms don't have to be employed. Again this is of value on more modern setups, but even laptops today are readily employing at least 2 CPUs/cores.

When a method is JIT compiled, the compiler emits the native CPU instructions. Some of these instructions contain memory addresses that refer to variables or methods. By contrast, an unmanaged compiler and linker emit native CPU instructions that contain memory addresses when building the resulting file. This file must contain relocation information; if Windows can't load the file at its preferred base address, then the embedded memory addresses are incorrect and they must be fixed-up by the Windows' loader. Dynamic relocation (rebasing) significantly hurts the load time of unmanaged code.

The system is able to collect statistics about how the program is actually running in the environment it is in, and it can rearrange and recompile for optimum performance.

One last point - JIT-based software solutions are so prevalent today because it is the only feasible way to get the function and features that people want in their apps running well on the myriad of hardware that must be supported equally well to take advantage of all its features (especially CPU and graphics boards). I have a 2-CPU laptop and an 8-CPU desktop. Try writing software in C++ with static compilation that takes advantage of all that horsepower (you can do JIT with C++ by the way). When was the last software language created that is used in enterprise/complex application development? About 30 years ago? HOw many JIT languages have been created since then? At least a dozen, maybe more? If JIT was so bad why hasn't the computer science community trashed it and moved in another direction? Because the advantages of JIT code are too overwhelming in solving computer science problems.

Now of course this can all sound like theory to someone, and we all have our opinions. I just want to respectfully submit that there are many high performance applications in the world, running key business segments of large corporations, written with JIT code. To deduce that Logos 4 is slow on my machine, Logos 4 now uses JIT, therefore JIT is bad, is simply illogical for one, and unsupported by anything Logos has said (and they, and Bob, have commented extensively on the topic).

I have L3 and L4 installed, and while 6 months ago I used both about 50%, I now use L4 98% of the time now because it is just painfully torturous to go back to the L3 way of doing things once I have learned L4. I don't think that is "hypnotized by the kool-aid", as I have both choices. Some folks just disagree with your opinion, that's all.

Clearly L4 runs poorly on some people's computers, that is an absolute given. It also runs fine on many others. Forced obsolescence stinks sometimes, for sure. The people who rode buggies were probably pretty miffed when they went away almost overnight. I invested tons in my record collection, my 8-track collection, and the world *could* have kept that going if it wanted to - at the price of progress and innovation. And if all this software still ran on a PC that was purchased 15 years ago I would have saved a lot of investment in hardware and software over the last 15 years (and that's not so unreasonable is it? Many people have a 15 year old TV, VCR, phone....why not computer?)

So progress steps on people and we are at an inflexion point. Granted.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135959#Comment_135959

I'm really sorry you feel this way. I think you may not be keeping up with the latest developments. Logos 4.0c really is a fine piece of software with broader functionality than Version 3 has. Yes, there are features in Version 3 that are not yet implemented under Version 4. Some features will never be but have been replaced with a different way of doing things instead. There are lot's of instructional videos and wiki articles available. Many posts in the forum give detailed advice on how to accomplish different things in Verion 4.

I paid a lot of loot over the years for Logos resources - and I don't sit on my padded backside with a book allowance.

I too would be very frustrated if I found Logos unusable after a large investment.
(The replacement value of my collection at actual sale prices is presently $23,000. And that doesn't count my Pre-Pub orders or purchases made before 2008. No book allowance either!)

For your own health's sake let's try and make Logos useful for you. Can you give us a starting point to work with? What do you want to accomplish first?