Wisdom on Beta Release
I am beginning to see a lot of "Hopefully before the 4.0 release, if not then probably as 4.0a or something" type answers which implies a release date for v4 exists in house and has been set in stone..
I think the software is developing nicely and in the right direction, but I for one would rather you spent an extra month or so getting the software to a point where a "quick fix" post release isnt rushed out to fix those beta test gremlins..
Yes I am eager for v4, but dont want you to rush an unfinished and therefore unworthy product out there which could potentially damage your reputation.
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
Comments
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DominicM said:
I am beginning to see a lot of "Hopefully before the 4.0 release, if not then probably as 4.0a or something" type answers which implies a release date for v4 exists in house and has been set in stone..
Bob has mentioned that all eyes are focused on a fixed date.
DominicM said:I think the software is developing nicely and in the right direction, but I for one would rather you spent an extra month or so getting the software to a point where a "quick fix" post release isnt rushed out to fix those beta test gremlins..
I would be content with a 4.0 release consisting of only the features current in the beta minus the bugs. There are some things I would like to see...like printing, which may just be held back from the betas for now to decrease the variables causing bugs, but I already have a hard time going back to 3.X, which tells me 4.0 is better at the vast majority of things I do with Logos plus some things I couldn't do, or were too complicated to try, in 3.X.
DominicM said:Yes I am eager for v4, but dont want you to rush an unfinished and therefore unworthy product out there which could potentially damage your reputation.
The impression I have gotten is that with the complexity of marketing, development, etc. the train has passed the point of no return and the Logos Devs can count on not sleeping much before "the date" :-)
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DominicM said:
I am beginning to see a lot of "Hopefully before the 4.0 release, if not then probably as 4.0a or something" type answers which implies a release date for v4 exists in house and has been set in stone..
I think the software is developing nicely and in the right direction, but I for one would rather you spent an extra month or so getting the software to a point where a "quick fix" post release isnt rushed out to fix those beta test gremlins..
Yes I am eager for v4, but dont want you to rush an unfinished and therefore unworthy product out there which could potentially damage your reputation.
I relate very much to your sentiment but I think whatever happens this needs to be out the door before or at the time of Zondervan products being released. It wouldn't be good to give them L3 for a month or two and then switch them over to L4 which is totally diferent. L4 might even be a slightly better fit for those coming from Pradis in terms of general look of the applicaton but with the bonus of all the extra features that you simply don't get in Pradis.
Now whether there is an even earlier date than this Logos has in concrete... I don't want to speculate too much on that ...4.0 will arrive when it arrives... hey its already arrived for us privelleged beta testers....
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Dominic, you also need to consider how companies work. Logos needs the capital from the release to continue development. In an ideal world, everything comes at once, but in reality, it costs money to pay the developers and the money comes from sales. Logos is banking on the new 4.0 opening up some new market and more revenues and that money will add the next set of features. It will also pay for the Mac development since the Mac sales helped pay for the 4.0 development.DominicM said:I think the software is developing nicely and in the right direction, but I for one would rather you spent an extra month or so getting the software to a point where a "quick fix" post release isnt rushed out to fix those beta test gremlins..
So unless you are looking to invest a few hundred thousand into books in the next week or two, I think Logos' strategy is what you will have to live with.
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Joe Miller said:
It will also pay for the Mac development since the Mac sales helped pay for the 4.0 development.
I'm not even sure whether the Mac sales would have paid for the initial Mac development.....
Joe Miller said:So unless you are looking to invest a few hundred thousand into books in the next week or two, I think Logos' strategy is what you will have to live with.
I'm also sure that we'll have to live with the release schedule that has already been set. My guess is that the publicity materials are already at the publishers from the way Bob's been talking. Does that mean that I'd recommend that anyone purchase 4.0? No. I'd recommend that they wait 6 months until some of the issues have been resolved. Luckily no one ever asks my opinion about bible software
On a side note: I've been involved in a couple of Beta testing programs (not as many as a number who are involved here). I can't remember any which had a set date for release at the start of Beta testing. How can a software company know how long it will take to identify and resolve the bugs that are discovered during this process?
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No need to speculate on your part. Bob made mention of this in another thread and that is why I repeated his statement here.Damian McGrath said:Joe Miller said:It will also pay for the Mac development since the Mac sales helped pay for the 4.0 development.
I'm not even sure whether the Mac sales would have paid for the initial Mac development.....
Well, it seems Bob has set a release date before Beta testing and you have already made up your mind that the release will not meet your standards based on a beta 3.Damian McGrath said:does that mean that I'd recommend that anyone purchase 4.0? No. I'd recommend that they wait 6 months
Personally, I will wait until the RC version comes out before making any firm conclusions.
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Joe Miller said:
you have already made up your mind that the release will not meet your standards based on a beta 3
Am I that obvious?
Actually, I'm basing my decision (to date) on the responses that have been received on this forum to the very real concerns which I and others have raised about issues such as downloads, indexing, and the inability to delete resources. These would have to be addressed before I could recommend the program to others. I know that these will eventually be addressed - but, from what has been said to date by Bob and various Logos employees, they will not be addressed until after the release of 4.0.
As for me, I quite like Logos 4.0 and have only used Logos 3 on about 3 occasions in the last few weeks. On issues related to the responsiveness of the program, another issue of concern for me given the specs of my two computers, I am very happy to wait and see what level of optimisation occurs. And I am confident that all the other issues which I have raised will be addressed one way or another.
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DominicM said:
Yes I am eager for v4, but dont want you to rush an unfinished and therefore unworthy product out there which could potentially damage your reputation.
I agree as new and cross-over users will be as confused as we are about resource management and be much less forgiving!
I am also concerned about the number of features that are still a work-in-progress as this is not normal for Beta testing:-
- Prioritize (this must be enhanced)
- various Guides and Bible Facts
- Syntax Search, Morph Search
- Bible Search (index issues)
- inline Search command prompts (BEFORE, AND, OR etc)
- Help files
These need to be finalised by Beta 5. If not I would consider dropping some features for improved resource management:-
- Syntax Search (too immature/clumsy & NT resources not sufficiently advanced over L3)
- Word suggestions for Search (slows/hinders input & can suggest an exactness that isn't necessary)
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Fair enough. I thought all of these had been addressed. I tried to keep up with all the threads, but that is tough. What have I missed? Can you tell me what your specific concern is, why the Logos response is a "no recommend", and what would satisfy your concern? Thanks.Damian McGrath said:real concerns which I and others have raised about issues such as downloads, indexing, and the inability to delete resources.
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Hi Dave,
Dave Hooton said:- inline Search command prompts (BEFORE, AND, OR etc)
- Help files
- You should be able to type search queries using those operators, both in the Search panel and Command bar.
To type it as a command try: Bible Search for faith AND joy. - Help files are partially available now and will be complete by the time 4.0 is released. There are some beta testers who have not gotten the help resource downloaded successfully from the server yet, but should get it with Beta 4.
0 - You should be able to type search queries using those operators, both in the Search panel and Command bar.
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DominicM said:
Yes I am eager for v4, but dont want you to rush an unfinished and therefore unworthy product out there which could potentially damage your reputation.
I could only guess, but I'm assuming they're trying to get this out by Christmas. Maybe Jan 1, 2010.
If I worked there, I'd be sure to suggest that the shipping date is delayed until at least a month after Windows 7 is released. That way the new 'unwanted features' of Win7 will be mostly worked out before L4 ships. It would make things much easier on Logos tech support.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Melissa Snyder said:
You should be able to type search queries using those operators, both in the Search panel and Command bar.
To type it as a command try: Bible Search for faith AND joy.Melissa, I was referring to the lack of prompts for search operators. We get excessive prompting for a word but no assistance with search operators. v3 showed that the HELP documentation was inadequate - people need help and prompts in the Search bar.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Joe Miller said:
I thought all of these had been addressed.
Joe, when they are adequately addressed you will see less concern in people's comments! The situation at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/1845/14244.aspx#14244 has done nothing to allay those concerns.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Richard DeRuiter said:
If I worked there, I'd be sure to suggest that the shipping date is delayed until at least a month after Windows 7 is released. That way the new 'unwanted features' of Win7 will be mostly worked out before L4 ships. It would make things much easier on Logos tech support.
Having been using the Win7 Beta and Release candidate over the past 6 months it has been incredibly stable and a vast improvement on XP and Vista; you get a whole ran of UI improvements yet a smaller resource footprint and much improved performance doing basic OS tasks... I think this will be the easiest Windows transition there's been... (no I don't have anything to do with Microsoft [:D])
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Joe Miller said:
Can you tell me what your specific concern is, why the Logos response is a "no recommend", and what would satisfy your concern?
Joe,
I want explicit control over downloads - much like in v3 - to be notified about which resources are available and to be able to chose to download them or not.
I want control over when indexing occurs. I do not want a complete index rebuilt with every minor change. If I shut down indexing because I need to use my computer for something else, I do not want it to start up again without my permission.
I would like to banish forever some files from my hard drive, eg. Middle Liddel, abbreviated TDNT.... I would like the option of a smaller library for my netbook. Things are already pretty crowded there.
On all of these issues the response has been very cautious. Something may happen with indexing before 4.0 release. With downloads it seems to be all or nothing. No one knows what hiding resources means but it is clear that we will not have the option of two different installs if we have two different types of computers and different needs for them.
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That makes sense. I know some respones have been given, but admit they are a bit muddy at times. I am confident a more clear policy will be given as the beta progresses, but your questions are fair indeed.
I did suggest a while ago that there be a "brief case" type option that would give the end user the ability to set controls for what will go to a designated laptop for on the road. I think the controls should work from the settings and then update the "cloud". This way, I could set my info to be synched from the desktop or laptop and the cloud could still manage the downloads, etc.. That, IMHO, seems a decent compromise, but we shall see what happens.
Take care brother.
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Joe Miller said:
That makes sense. I know some respones have been given, but admit they are a bit muddy at times. I am confident a more clear policy will be given as the beta progresses, but your questions are fair indeed.
Thanks Joe. I actually have little doubt that all of these will eventually become a reality. When they do, I would quite confidently recommend Logos 4. Until that time, any recommendation would be very considered.
Joe Miller said:I did suggest a while ago that there be a "brief case" type option that would give the end user the ability to set controls for what will go to a designated laptop for on the road. I think the controls should work from the settings and then update the "cloud". This way, I could set my info to be synched from the desktop or laptop and the cloud could still manage the downloads, etc.. That, IMHO, seems a decent compromise, but we shall see what happens.
I remember your suggestion and at the time said that I wanted everything with me. That is now not the case. Resources and the index take up too much space on my netbook.
I also wrote a post about iTunes 9.0. This update allows synchronisation across home networks. It's fantastic. Finally, I've been able to easily shift my music back and forward. The use of the home network means that no manual transfer of files (through USB or cables) is necessary nor do I need to download anything. I have been able to set it up to automatically download any new music purchases to both computers.
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Jon Rumble said:
Having been using the Win7 Beta and Release candidate over the past 6 months it has been incredibly stable and a vast improvement on XP and Vista;
I'm looking forward to Oct 22. That's not the point. Somewhere, someone's upgrade to Win7 will mess something up. An L4 installation may also cause a user some trouble (that's been the case in this discussion group). If you install both at the same time, who's to know which program caused which problem? It's a trouble-shooting nightmare.
Put that together with MS' reputation of putting out an OS that is not fully backwards compatible with software and hardware, and the decision matrix seems pretty clear. Even with the extensive beta testing going in with Win7, history is still a demanding teacher.
Anyway, if it were my company I'd wait. But then I don't really expect L4 to be out before Christmas/Jan1 anyway.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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