Questions from a non-KJVO
Hey guys,
I'm new here and I've been browsing this site and the rest of the internet for some time, but I have had trouble coming up with the answers I was looking for. I'm sure there out there somewhere but I figured it'd be easiest just to ask directly since I find most people rather enjoy discussing what they believe anyway.
I'm going to come clean: I'm not a KJVO, but give me a chance. I'm sure you're used to people coming in and trollinng, ranting, and belittling and I'm not here to do that. I just honestly have trouble completely understanding the view and I'm sure this is the place to fix that.
I have many, many questions, but I guess the best one to start with is: why the 1611 KJV? (Why not an earlier English translation? Is there such thing as an inspired non-English version or is the KJV the only inspired English version? Was there an inspired version before man had the KJV?)
I suppose ended up being more than one question, but the parenthetical ones probably help explain where I'm coming from.
Thanks
Comments
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Eddy Merlinhouse said:
I'm new here ...
Welcome to the Logos Bible Software forums that focus on using software and resources from Faithlife Corporation:
Eddy Merlinhouse said:why the 1611 KJV? ...
Couple places to discuss these questions are https://www.christiandiscourse.net and https://faithlife.com (various groups)
For this forum, General is useful for discussing available resources offered by Faithlife (can include recommendations)
Logos wiki => Faithlife Speaks includes three KJV links in Bibles and Reverse Interlinears section:
- Logos’ KJV choice 1 (Bob Pritchett, CEO)
- Logos’ KJV choice 2 (Bob Pritchett, CEO)
- Logos’ KJV choice 3 (Bob Pritchett, CEO)
Free Logos 8 Basic includes The Holy Bible: King James Version (KJV) with reverse interlinear tagging.
Searching Faithlife ebooks for King James only => https://ebooks.faithlife.com/search?query=King%20james%20only&sortBy=Relevance&limit=30&page=1&filters=status-live_Status&ownership=all finds many results, including:
- Verily, Verily: The KJV - 400 Years of Influence and Beauty
- The Facts on the King James Only Debate
- Authorized: The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible
Searching logos.com for King James only => https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=King+James+only finds:
Faithlife eBooks and Logos.com resources can be used in Faithlife applications (on Windows/macOS) and mobile apps (on Android/iOS)
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Do you have LOGOS software? If so we can recommend a number of books that discuss various issues pro/con with KJV. This forum is restricted from discussing theological issues themselves. It is intended for the use of LOGOS and its resources.
EDIT: Beat me to it. And more thorough response as well. [:D]
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I would recommend Authorized: The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible also [Y]
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Kevin said:
I would recommend Authorized: The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible also
And the video version of the same book:
https://faithlifetv.com/items/621210
And the Logos version of the same video:
https://www.logos.com/product/144705/authorized-the-use-and-misuse-of-the-king-james-bible
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Eddy Merlinhouse said:
I just honestly have trouble completely understanding the view and I'm sure this is the place to fix that.
The question isn't totally theological, and does impact how you choose to use Logos. Others above note 'the argument' (definitely heated), and the software tends toward "best manuscript is best theology".
But ask yourself the questions:
- Why did the inspired early NT writers choose an obviously bad rendition of the OT, which needed to deliver the apologetic proofs concerning the messiah? What was the criticality for them?
- The KJV largely reflects a series of manuscripts that reflect 'common usage' for many centuries (so called majority texts). When the Egyptian manuscripts showed up in the late 1800s, what was the theological implication? Was there a 'wrongness'?
- Logos invests heavily in a 'rightness'. Is that even important (theologically)?
Like you, I'm not a KJVO, but I don't think the forum's heavy bad-mouthing (true) of the KJV is theologically supported (as well as 'oh wow, another translation!!').
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Here's a recent forum thread on KJVO with people suggesting links and resources: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/176405.aspx
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KJVO people believe in unicorns 🦄 and love old english curse words 😂😂😂😜
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I believe my comment is within the forum guidelines, if not please delete. I was raised in strict KJV-onlyism. I had my doubts about the whole idea but it was my purchase of Logos 4 that gave me the tools to see the Greek/Hebrew and see how the archaic language was affecting my understanding.
I discovered Louw-Nida in my library and had many eureka! moments, I later bought BDAG and have become pretty proficient in Greek (still working on Hebrew). Logos has been instrumental in my life in ways that I can't explain.
https://www.logos.com/product/30964/the-king-james-version-debate-a-plea-for-realism helped me grasp the issues and think things through. I used the KJV for a while, but I remember buying my first ESV, I read the whole NT in one afternoon. I told my wife it was like I had been slurping water off a rock my whole life and then someone threw me into a river to drink.
Good memories. I now preach from NIV 2011 because the congregation I serve has used it for a while. I have come to appreciate it's accessibility. Thank God for His Word!
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Mike Tourangeau said:
I used the KJV for a while, but I remember buying my first ESV, I read the whole NT in one afternoon. I told my wife it was like I had been slurping water off a rock my whole life and then someone threw me into a river to drink.
What a beautiful vivid word picture. Thanks for sharing your journey. Echoing your thanks for God's word.
Carpe verbum.
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I find myself using the KJV more now than I used to do. There are three reasons for this.
Most of the time, a given translation doesn't matter as much as reading it repeatedly and carefully does.
A massive amount of references and commentary in my library uses the KJV. There's not a few mistakes that have come from reliance on it by the uneducated, but there's still a treasure trove.I often need to search based on the KJV so I do not miss out on that treasure.
As much as I appreciate the best manuscripts and insights from thoughtful textual criticism, there appears to be a human gap on the back end and the front end. Metzger, a real best manuscripts expert, quotes an early church guy who wasn't at a loss for words about how sloppy and negligent the scribes were in their work.Jesus said that there were going to be tares among the wheat. If that's the case, how much do we need to throttle our expectations that best is always so?
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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mab said:
Metzger, a real best manuscripts expert, quotes an early church guy who wasn't at a loss for words about how sloppy and negligent the scribes were in their work
Reference please.
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My observation has been that when God "commissioned" the N.T. to be written, several dialects of Greek were available. The one chosen was Koine Greek. This is also referred to as "street Greek"; i.e., the language of the common man on the street.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I do not hang around with many people who speak King James English. I suspect that providing translations using contemporary English is probably a good thing.
Those of us who grew up on the KJV and have a trove of verses memorized in that vernacular have found the NKJV (available in Logos) to be like going home. It's close enough to the KJV to seem quite familiar. I have the NKJV high on my Logos priority list. However, I use the ESV for everyday reading.
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David A Egolf said:
Those of us who grew up on the KJV and have a trove of verses memorized in that vernacular have found the NKJV (available in Logos) to be like going home. It's close enough to the KJV to seem quite familiar.
I grew up in a church that used KJV before the NIV was published in 1978 (New Testament first, if I recall, and then the whole Bible). Our pastor made the decision to change the church over to NIV for the pew bibles, and he also set an example for all of us by re-memorizing in the NIV all the many verses that he'd previously memorized in KJV. I still have some verses that I memorized in KJV before the changeover which I prefer in KJV, but for the most part I prefer the sound and readability of the NIV (or these days, the TNIV).
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David A Egolf said:
Those of us who grew up on the KJV and have a trove of verses memorized in that vernacular have found the NKJV (available in Logos) to be like going home. It's close enough to the KJV to seem quite familiar. I have the NKJV high on my Logos priority list. However, I use the ESV for everyday reading.
If somebody picks up a KJV Bible, like to open to John 3:7 followed by asking what is thee & ye ? KJV has singular you forms (thee, thine, thou, thy) along with plural you (ye).
Modern English Version (MEV) can be described as a Newer NKJV. Personally dreaming of Reverse Interlinear for MEV (and CJB), which NKJV and ESV already have.
Currently Faithlife Illustrated Study Bible is available in two printed editions: NIV and NKJV => https://lexhampress.com/search?sortBy=Title&limit=30&page=1&filters=resourcetype-studybibles_Resource%20Type&ownership=all
Dreaming of Lexham English Bible (LEB) edition for Faithlife Illustrated Study Bible.
Also would like to get a Bishop's Bible, which was used during KJV preparation.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I don't have the quote at my fingertips but Metzger referenced Origen.David Ames said:Reference please.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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mab said:
I don't have the quote at my fingertips but Metzger referenced Origen.David Ames said:Reference please.
I couldn't find the reference in question where he's quoting Origen, but I did find Metzger mentioning sloppy scribes a lot in his A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition:
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