The future of Logos and Faithlife: Help us make the right decisions!
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The term can be used several ways. I think Piper intended it as a synonym for mercenary, i.e. doing it only for money or recognition. The nuance I have in mind is professional vs. dilettante, or amateur, if you prefer. Exegesis is not something preachers do instead something else. Yes it is a vocation, a passion, a daily divine imperative. I want to do it to the absolute best of my ability. In this sense I do believe that we are professionals. We take the serious business of preaching the gospel seriously and use the best available tools to accomplish the calling.
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Every end user application...which we used (lol) to call "programs", long before they were "apps" is a child of its time. I remember getting my hands on Ami Pro, a beautiful "easy" graphical word processor for windows 3.1. 7 floppies to install. 300 pages of manual.
Logos is old enough that it began in that age where full-service computer programs required some learning. Granted, Logos seems to have some learning curves which are a little sharper (read, hairpin) but that may be the price of power.
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Scott David said:
I think Logos is for everyone. It's simple enough for a newbie to the software (or to Christianity) -- but complex enough for theology professors.
Scott David said:I truly believe that Logos can, and does, cater to all audiences
I agree and think that Faithlife is doing its best to make the program usable for everyone. Faithlife's mission statement is "We use technology to equip the Church to grow in the light of the Bible."
My understanding of this statement is to include everyone of the church, not just some, to grow their understanding.
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PetahChristian said:
YouVersion probably holds the #1 bible app spot.
Some folks I know (like my mom) use YouVersion like Facebook for Christians. It's so social -- and many friends / family members use it because they connect through it. They have Logos on the home computer -- YV on the phone. So, I have to install YV to stay connected with them. One really neat thing is that Christians can recommend readings to non-Christians and get them hooked on the bible in a very simple, easy, non-threatening way.
Don't know if Logos could ever get into this space? I mean, it's really all about the lay-level content that pastors and authors develop for YV. But it would be a total game changer if Logos could enter into that space (only have to have one bible app on devices) -- I suspect it would be complex to filter the content for different levels (e.g. lay, pastors, scholars). I may not be searching hard enough, but I have a very challenging time finding valuable content on YV (even the big name authors seem to produce things more on the simpler end).
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Thanks for the answer David Thomas.
From my very limited view, the problem may be in the definition of terms:
From FL's point of view, what is the CHURCH? Is it the elected persons by God, or is it the denomination, structural, etc.
If the Church is the elected people of God, then the market strategy may include going to seek the lost children and may include the market place.
Then you have the "Bible study concept". Is it only determining the human author's intention within his context, or is there a neglected dimension:
The dimension of the Holy Spirit (the real author of the Bible), who is not constrained by ethnicity, historical context, language, etc.
If the latter is true, then the context of real life in the elected people of God is important and may be reached via chaplaincy, which by the way is an Incarnational way, just as Jesus did (are we supposed to be Christlike or not?).
True sheep live in a very complex reality full of uncertainties, only other real sheep can help sort things out, organize, and take Christian responsible action and stewardship to improve quality of life and living making. No doubt when true outreach, help, loving kindness is experienced by them, they will respond to such show of God's love and get involved into continue doing good Kingdom expansion.
I understand FL is not a ministry, but they are the perfect platform to aid in the development of a ministry of the future.
If you have a chance take a look at.
https://faithlife.com/lexham-survey-of-theology/topics/7613
http://www.cc-amesdsm.org/download/paradigmPapers/1_Creating%20a%20New%20Paradigm.pdf
Just a different view, for further research, reflection, and constructive comment.
Peace and grace.
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Hi Rene:
I hear you. And that is why I think that some business companies should be approached to help them in their corporate social responsibility area.
Think of it, many companies profit from doing business with a large christian demographic, is not fair that the surplus created is ill distributed.
Serious companies know that is correct to give back to the community. Investing in development of chaplains that help improve the lives and morality of persons makes only good business sense.
I do not think that the Logos software is overly pricey, the workers that develop it and the creators of the platform deserve to be paid in a dignified way.
Another concept needs to be reinforced:
God is the owner of all gold, silver, riches, Earth, the Universe, the devil has nothing, all his minions got was by lying, cheating, stealing, killing.
God promises that His heirs will inherit all. God gives believers creativity to do things and prosper.
Money, wealth and prosperity are not the problems.
How can someone say that is a devout son of God, and then not have enough money to get a decent package in Logos Bible software?
See previous posts of mine to know how in developing countries, innovative socioeconomic activities have allowed groups to build Churches autonomously.
The idea of creating a staging HQ place for learning platform to develop leaders in the future applies not only to developing countries. There are regions in the States where innovative socioeconomic initiatives can be developed, and with the help of Logos platform, the multiplying of believers and disciples can get going in a better way.
Peace and grace.
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I'm a late comer to the conversation, and haven't made it through all (currently 5) pages of replies and comments yet. However the response offered by @Fred Chapman on the first page pretty closely sums up my own situation as the pastor of a numerically small congregation. For me, that means that all technology purchases &/or subscriptions are paid for out of pocket, we simply don't have a budget for them at all. I will be honest, I haven't tried Proclaim at all. I almost certainly won't since the current model is far outside my budget. While I agree with Mr Pritchett that the current trend in software is migrating away from software downloads to service subscriptions, that tends to ultimately be best for the companies and not always for the end user. Within my own situation, I would be far more willing to consider proclaim if there were a single point purchase option much like PowerPoint (at least for now, MS may not offer that much longer either).
With FaithlifeTV, I like some of the content and have access through my Faithlife subscription. I do use it from time to time but it needs some polish to bring it up to par. Just adding the ability to have a watchlist would be a massive QoL improvement.
I may comment again later once I have read and considered the other comments, but here is at least a start.
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I love Logos and have invested quite a bit into my library. And I really appreciate the leadership of Bob and the way he runs his business.
My main criticism of Logos is its usability. The search functionality has significantly improved but if I need to find something quickly, I still use Google to search the Internet. Then when I gathered more information, I go back to Logos. Google just seems to know what I am looking for by just typing in a few words. I know that Logos does not have the user base of Google, but in the end, we have come to expect such smart search engines. Faithlife Assistant is not the solution for me.
Let me show you just one example of lack of usability. I want to investigate a topic, so I go to Logos Guides and type in "topic". Then I get 12 options:
If I type a specific topic into the Go bar, I get another 10+ options. So I have a total of over 20 options to search for a topic. Then I need to start researching which option is the best. At this point, many people give up. My nephew (a 28 years old smart guy) is one of them.
I am aware that Logos is an extremely powerful tool but we have come to expect tools to work without having to go through extensive help files.
My hope is that Logos one day becomes so easy to use that occasional basic users can easily navigate through it. And expert users can get into all the nuances.
Armin
PS: The workflows were a huge step forward. Many thanks!
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Armin said:
My main criticism of Logos is its usability. The search functionality has significantly improved but if I need to find something quickly, I still use Google to search the Internet. Then when I gathered more information, I go back to Logos. Google just seems to know what I am looking for by just typing in a few words.
I have a feeling this is never going to change.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Armin said:
My main criticism of Logos is its usability. The search functionality has significantly improved but if I need to find something quickly, I still use Google to search the Internet. Then when I gathered more information, I go back to Logos. Google just seems to know what I am looking for by just typing in a few words.
Yes, I do the same
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Armin said: If I need to find something quickly, I still use Google to search the Internet. Then when I gathered more information, I go back to Logos. Google just seems to know what I am looking for by just typing in a few words.
Maybe some of that difference is in the budgets of the two companies mentioned?? [Or maybe in the number of and the pay of the developers involved??]] [[How many lines of code in Google and how many lines of code in Logos / Verbum??]] [[The power of the computers running those programs??]]
If you really want a fast Logos get Faithlife to produce a version that runs on a Quantum Computer. [[If you can afford one]]
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David Ames said:
Armin said:
If I need to find something quickly, I still use Google to search the Internet. Then when I gathered more information, I go back to Logos. Google just seems to know what I am looking for by just typing in a few words.
Maybe some of that difference is in the budgets of the two companies mentioned??
Perhaps Logos could have a "WEB" search button in the inline search and other search tools. In the settings you can choose your preferred engine (e.g. Bing, Google, Yahoo, etc). Perhaps a split pane that opens if the web button is chosen. One search, searching both Logos, and the internet -- if desired.
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David Ames said:
Maybe some of that difference is in the budgets of the two companies mentioned??
The computation problem is fairly simple; FL has the expertise. The issue is how much user data is available? And how variable is it? Logos appears to be a limited-number-of-heavy-users, and a lot of light-users. That scenario is hard to build data associations that meet a user's expectation at each usage point.
A really fascinating parallel is the competition in auto-driving cars ... T-company's servers are constantly watching the human drivers, learning the patterns, and avoiding Ladar demands.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Scott David said:
Perhaps Logos could have a "WEB" search button in the inline search and other search tools. In the settings you can choose your preferred engine (e.g. Bing, Google, Yahoo, etc). Perhaps a split pane that opens if the web button is chosen. One search, searching both Logos, and the internet -- if desired.
I like that idea... maybe it could be one of the guides that could be added to the Topic, Passage & Sermon Starter Guides
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Scott David said:
Perhaps Logos could have a "WEB" search button in the inline search and other search tools. In the settings you can choose your preferred engine (e.g. Bing, Google, Yahoo, etc). Perhaps a split pane that opens if the web button is chosen. One search, searching both Logos, and the internet -- if desired.
I like that idea... maybe it could be one of the guides that could be added to the Topic, Passage & Sermon Starter Guides
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Scott David said:
Perhaps Logos could have a "WEB" search button in the inline search and other search tools. In the settings you can choose your preferred engine (e.g. Bing, Google, Yahoo, etc). Perhaps a split pane that opens if the web button is chosen. One search, searching both Logos, and the internet -- if desired.
That might work: Reformat the Logos query and submit it to 'preferred engine'. Would Logos have to pay 'preferred engine' a royalty?
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WORDsearch is making an announcement on Monday. Maybe they just bought Logos and everything we own in WORDsearch will be transferred over to Logos and a new era will begin hahaha
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David Ames said:Scott David said:
Perhaps Logos could have a "WEB" search button in the inline search and other search tools. In the settings you can choose your preferred engine (e.g. Bing, Google, Yahoo, etc). Perhaps a split pane that opens if the web button is chosen. One search, searching both Logos, and the internet -- if desired.
That might work: Reformat the Logos query and submit it to 'preferred engine'. Would Logos have to pay 'preferred engine' a royalty?
Usually, any kind of usage of Google does not cost (they want folks to use their engine). I know that there are endless plugins to use Google in powerful ways on a website (e.g. have clients search your business site, or even create on-demand access to knowledge, products, etc) -- this is always free. However, embedding it within software might be a different animal.
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MWW said:Scott David said:
Perhaps Logos could have a "WEB" search button in the inline search and other search tools. In the settings you can choose your preferred engine (e.g. Bing, Google, Yahoo, etc). Perhaps a split pane that opens if the web button is chosen. One search, searching both Logos, and the internet -- if desired.
I like that idea... maybe it could be one of the guides that could be added to the Topic, Passage & Sermon Starter Guides
Oh, right. That's a simple and practical idea. Perhaps this conversation should be someplace else? Some area of the forum for recommendations?
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Unfortunately this is true for ALL Bible software programs. I myself search also often first with Startpage.com and then I go to the Bible software program.
Greetings
Fabian
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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[:D]DAL said:WORDsearch is making an announcement on Monday. Maybe they just bought Logos and everything we own in WORDsearch will be transferred over to Logos and a new era will begin hahaha
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Mark said:Armin said:
My main criticism of Logos is its usability. The search functionality has significantly improved but if I need to find something quickly, I still use Google to search the Internet. Then when I gathered more information, I go back to Logos. Google just seems to know what I am looking for by just typing in a few words.
Yes, I do the same
I do this as well, but not because there is anything wrong with the Logos search. I find the Logos search to be powerful, quick, and easy to use. Right-clicking on a word and doing a morph search from the popup menu is friendly and fast. The search tab is powerful and straightforward to use. The Bible Word Study tool is also useful. The "corresponding words" functionality is beneficial when studying a passage.
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Cynthia in Florida said:
P.S. Al Het: GREAT POST!
Thanks, Cynthia. I appreciate hearing back that my comments made some sense. By the end of writing them, I wasn't sure if I was being clear at all.
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DAL said:
WORDsearch is making an announcement on Monday. Maybe they just bought Logos and everything we own in WORDsearch will be transferred over to Logos and a new era will begin hahaha
Seems they just stole some of the ideas around Faithlife Connect ("perk"). Would have been better if Lifeway sold that thing to Logos and everything we own in WordSearch would be transferred to Logos - and everything available in the WS store to the Logos store - and a new era will begin .... maybe they could have left some brick and mortar stores open in this case.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
Seems they just stole some of the ideas around Faithlife Connect ("perk").
To be fair, they're offering 10% off all purchases if you spend $100 a year as well as free books. That's much more generous that Logos is offering (Logos is 2%).
At the same time, it does suggest that people need to be incentivized to spend $100/year. That's a very low number - and I'd be worried about that if I was a WORDsearch customer.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
At the same time, it does suggest that people need to be incentivized to spend $100/year. That's a very low number - and I'd be worried about that if I was a WORDsearch customer.
Yes, indeed Mark. I probably spend over $100/year on the +1 & +2's which come with the Logos, FL eBooks, and Verebum FBOTM offers. I'd say that even the most causal Logos book buyer would have to work very hard not to spend $100/year!
Carpe verbum.
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Bob,Bob Pritchett said:We’ve been building Logos Bible Software since 1991. It’s the heart of everything we do, and of accomplishing our mission:
We use technology to equip the Church to grow in the light of the Bible.
Logos is the premiere tool for people who are serious about Bible study. It’s heavily used by pastors, scholars, seminary students, and lay people.
But people who are serious about Bible study -- and want to use a powerful, dedicated tool for study -- are a small percentage of most churches. We want to serve everyone in the church, and we know that many people ‘grow in the light of the Bible’ through classes, small groups, video, and free content on the web....
I have been on both sides of the fence with you. I've been one of your biggest and harshest critics, and I have supported you. Mostly a harsh critic, however.
I have spent more money on my "small" library than I really can afford.
Unfortunately, I have felt like every penny spent has been wasted. My hostility toward the company, from 2010, until Logos 7, and really Logos 8 and it's complicated system has all but ruined my attitude toward Bible study. The exact opposite of why I purchased L3 to begin with, almost a decade ago.
Sadly, to actually learn how to use it, I have to gain a desire to use it. Something that despite my on again off again spurts of hope, dwindle as I realize the task of actually using this software as I used former easier software titles.
On the other hand, thanks to Logos Now, Logos Connect, what ever name the subscription is going by this week, I sometimes get an inkling of excitement to finish my studies, particularly Greek and Hebrew (I need two years of both to finally graduate) only to get bogged down in despair.
One thing I have come to think i have realize is, contrary to my initial reaction to you, personally, I do now believe you do desire to do the right thing with Logos. I see many things that I cannot explain. Sales that "glitch" far too frequently; as one example. But, I see you attempt to fix that as well. I cannot ask more than that from anyone. And, pray that these really are glitches.
So, another thing that has changed my mind about your integrity and purpose, is that, as you say in this post, You want to be transparent in how Logos/Faithlife is run. That is an incredible thing to do. It puts you in a very vulnerable place. Esp. when you get bombarded by critics, like myself, who seem to question your every move, and it's motivation. I remind myself of the Democrats who seek to "find something ANYTHING on Trump" (Oh boy. I did go there. Oops). Or Republicans who did the same on Clinton and Obama (yep, went there too).
Since you opened this discussion, and perhaps it's to sell another product; I would like to offer my one (maybe few) suggestion(s).
I am floored by the two major trainers and how much they make by peddling their "Logos Training:" I will applaud Logos for the many training videos offered for free, over the past couple years. Unfortunately for me, however, I almost find it a little too late. But, nevertheless, THANK YOU for the helps.
Logos 8 is a HUGE step in the right direction: Faster and easier to use than previous editions. I can actually find passages faster on Logos than Googling them (yeah; for 7-8 years, I Googled the passages, as opposed to using this expensive Bible software, because it was faster and easier!
But, I pray Google 9 and forward go faster and is easier to use than even 8.
A second area that is extremely frustrating to me is the constant updates. I hate mentioning this, because, without fail, despite this same disclaimer, someone will always mention how we can change the update settings. That is beside the point. And, unfortunately, in today's world, updates are necessary on a per second basis. Security flaws as well as software improvements/corrections. I get it. But, at the same time, I turn on my computer, and Windows has to update. Anti-virus software has to update. Hardware has to update. Software has to update. And Logos has to update. I have begun to think that we spend 90% of our time updating everything so we can use our computers, except we need to update again.
Sadly, I have no answers. Just wishes. I wish I could turn on my computer and open my Bible and in 20-30 seconds have my Bible opened, and it is so easy to use, I dont feel like I am computer illiterate to read my Bible. Perhaps a continuing improvement on speed and ease of use will help. Sadly there's not much that can be done to regain my desire (that i am aware of) to get back to the Bible Study I once loved. That will take God to move me back.
Thank you for being open to us.
Tim
Aka Batman
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Batman said:
Sadly there's not much that can be done to regain my desire (that i am aware of) to get back to the Bible Study I once loved. That will take God to move me back.
I need Jesus every day. Praying that he renews your heart to love him.
“Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.” (Psalm 34:8, NIV)
“Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.” (1 Peter 2:2–3, NIV)
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Andrew Biddinger said:Batman said:
Sadly there's not much that can be done to regain my desire (that i am aware of) to get back to the Bible Study I once loved. That will take God to move me back.
I need Jesus every day. Praying that he renews your heart to love him.
“Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.” (Psalm 34:8, NIV)
“Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.” (1 Peter 2:2–3, NIV)
Actually, God has already given you the knowledge to realize you can’t be in your current state. It’s your choice to go back to your Father just like it was the prodigal son’s choice to come to his senses.
You cannot expect God to be behind you begging you to come back or to convince you to come back. To expect a miracle or God to come and fetch you is to believe the devil’s lies.
Praying and hoping you repent and turn back to God!
DAL
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Guys, for goodness sakes. Casting 'Bible Study' as theological is the first mistake. Timothy, where art thou? And treating Logos as 'Bible Study' is the second. Sermon prep, yes. Research, yes. Batman is where he needs to be.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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