Re: Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software

Recently, I see a big push by Logos Software for a new resource titled, " Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software". From what I understand, this is a tool for the novice to learn Greek and Hebrew through the use of Logos 4.

If I may, I would like to preface what I am about to say by stating that this resource is wonderful for the layperson (gag! I hate the word "lay-") who has no formal Bible education. It will teach them the rudiments of the language and establish a relative stronger foundation through one of the most powerful Bible Tools available today. But it must NOT become a replacement for a exhaustive education.

As a Fundamental Baptist, I see a horrible trend from our schools to place a little emphasis on the original languages. I confess, we have a tendency to have a knee-jerk reaction against liberalism. While many bible scholars today are relatively liberal, this doesn't mean fundamentalists should abandon scholasticism. The result are Bible Colleges who only give one (maybe two) semester(s) in Greek.

Wrapping all this together, my point is that while Logos has provided the most phenomenal tool for the Bible, there is no replacement for hard work during long hours of learning.

I hope all the best for Logos, but if you are serious about scholasticism, Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software is not the final solution.

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Matthew C Jones

As a Fundamental Baptist, I see a horrible trend from our schools to place a little emphasis on the original languages

I understand your concern. I have also worried "American" Christian education becoming more shallow. I don't believe this is limited to just Fundamentalists or Baptists. But I am happy to report my new senior pastor (a young fellow0 of our 2000 member IFB church uses Hebrew or Greek in almost every sermon.

I don't believe Logos is intending this resource to replace seminary work. I think they are helping the rest of us enhance our home bound studies. Many of us will never get the chance to study the languages in a seminary setting. Even many who pastor small rural churches will not have that opportunity. You would have to admit this resource is an improvement over nothing.

One more thought: If you are intending scholasticism to be defined as years of linguistic mastery of Hebrew and Greek, of course it will require a different regimine. But if a broader, more liberal education is the goal, Logos software is certainly positioning itself to fit the bill.

William

I see a horrible trend from our schools to place a little emphasis on

Education!

Sorry, this is not directed at any particular person. I believe I am talking to the choir when it comes to study. This is more directed at K-12 public education. Everyone talks the talk but no one will walk the walk. Logos has taken an active step forward to get education where it needs to be. At least Logos wants people in the original word. With the learned pastors, the individual brain, and especially (most importantly) the power of God even a person with a BS in Mathematics can work in the original languages of God. (2nd and 3rd to math of course [:)])

David A Egolf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138653#Comment_138653

"You would have to admit this resource is an improvement over nothing"

I wish to address this comment. First, I want to point out that I ordered this material yesterday. Several years ago spent a lot of time studying Greek and attending an informal weekly class. After a full year those in the class could "read" the introductions to each of Paul's epistles. I hope that my previous studies will help to make this coursework more useful.

Second, a story: I work for a French computer company and deal with people who speak English as a second language all the time. An episode this afternoon will serve to illustrate my concern. Our French project leader reported that he had been testing some of our software and everything was O.K. "until now".

Based on the context, I am fairly sure that he meant "so far". However, his actual words implied that he had just located a problem.

Another example: I had a language instructor who pointed out that in almost all languages you can "go home", but you cannot "go house". Again a subtle point of usage demonstrates the complexity of moving between languages.

While I look forward to examining original Greek texts with more understanding, I would be hesitant to expect the ability to perform any truly original research. I suspect that, at best, I will be able to perform some validation on the works of others.

Whole heresies have emerged from well-meaning people who were in over their heads in the original languages.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138690#Comment_138690

David,

I'd be willing to bet that everyone here (and Logos) knows that just having a smattering of Language instruction won't allow us to overthrow Daniel Wallace! [:O]

You make a good point though...

John Calvin Hall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138690#Comment_138690

"You would have to admit this resource is an improvement over nothing"

Absolutely! I can't say enough for the hard work the folks at Logos has invested in this tool! If I had any gripes, it would be that I am sad it wasn't available 20 years earlier. [:'(] I really could have used it in Dr. Porche's Hebrew Class.

My fear is not the resource specifically, but the mindset of what I see in our colleges when it comes to Greek or Hebrew. We need God-fearing Bible-believing scholars, and it won't happen if our colleges are watering down the curriculum. I saw one college who only gave a single semester for J. Gresham Machen's text book. Gag!!! I would HATE to only have a single semester to invest for the whole book.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138731#Comment_138731

My fear is not the resource specifically, but the mindset of what I see in our colleges when it comes to Greek or Hebrew.

The president of a Bible Institute that trains many SBC pastors told me that he did not see the need for language training because of all the helps available today. My former school dropped the last two semesters of language and theology from their program and even dropped their THB in favor of a BRE. The dumbing down of the American Education System has infected almost every learning institution in this country.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138690#Comment_138690

Another example: I had a language instructor who pointed out that in almost all languages you can "go home", but you cannot "go house". Again a subtle point of usage demonstrates the complexity of moving between languages.

We can cut a tree down, then cut it up, for firewood. Before the fire-season raises all the trees to the ground. Language is not easy.

I had a book in 1982 (one day I might find it in an old box in a corner???) about learning Bible Greek. I don't remember much, but it starts with warning to NOT think you know anything, and don't think you'll discover something new based on the list in the back of Strongs. It also warns of using Greek or Hebrew words while preaching. I see Bill Mounce and others say much the same caution today. Bill also warns of saying something like: "Well, a better translation of this verse might be "xxx xxx xxx", based on the Greek here". Teach your people, but try not to cause them to doubt their English translation(s).

I can't afford the video course, but I would like to have it to help me. Oh well ...

Randy O'Brien

I hope all the best for Logos, but if you are serious about scholasticism, Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software is not the final solution.

John, do you mean "scholasticism" as a methodology? Or do you mean "scholasticism" as in "scholarly?" Just asking, they are not the same thing. If you really mean formal scholasticism do you mean Medieval Catholic scholasticism or later Reformed Protestant scholasticism? Or something in-between? It's pretty complicated, really.

Maybe your post simply highlights the need for help in understanding those quirky nuances of language, whether in Hebrew, Greek, or English.

As for your conclusion - of course it isn't the final solution, It was never portrayed as such. As a veteran pastor who has four years of Greek and two years of Hebrew I bought the product. I have an understanding of the languages, but all of my education was pre-computers. I did the rote memory thing and lost most of it within a few short years. I am looking forward to relearning and reigniting the passion for the original languages and learning to use the tools that are now available. Whether a newbie or a veteran, I think that the Lord will be honored through this tool as advances are made in understanding and application of the Word.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138760#Comment_138760

We can cut a tree down, then cut it up, for firewood. Before the fire-season raises all the trees to the ground. Language is not easy.

--"razes." But the point is well made when you read it aloud. No, language is not easy.

try not to cause them to doubt their English translation(s).

Not much risk for that in an IFB congregation. Inerrant, literal inspiriation is one of their tenants.
Although a thinking person just might ask "If all Bible translators are such brilliant scholars, why do they all disagree so much on how to say it in English?" or "If Greek is so exact, how did we end up with hundreds of translations?"

Bill Mounce has a weekend seminar he takes to churches to teach the laity. On his website he says
"Many churches have groups of people wanting to learn Greek, but what they really want to learn is enough Greek to use the biblical tools intelligently so they can better study their Bibles. " I doubt I ever cross paths with Bill's seminar but I know I can have Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5876 and review it over & over. It also specifically addresses the use of my Logos tools.

It is indeed a very good time to be alive.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138760#Comment_138760

We can cut a tree down, then cut it up, for firewood. Before the fire-season raises all the trees to the ground. Language is not easy.

Nonsense ! In Greece all the little children speak Greek and in Israel they speak Hebrew. Don't try to fool me with that ! [;)]

Actually, it does take work when you're learning a second language as an adult. If you think it worthwhile, you will expend the time and effort. If not, you don't belong in the ministry.

George Somsel

As a Fundamental Baptist, I see a horrible trend from our schools to place a little emphasis on the original languages. I confess, we have a tendency to have a knee-jerk reaction against liberalism. While many bible scholars today are relatively liberal, this doesn't mean fundamentalists should abandon scholasticism. The result are Bible Colleges who only give one (maybe two) semester(s) in Greek.

When I was in school it was required that entrants to the Seminary have a major in Greek beginning with classical introduction and reading in the great writers such as Xenophon, Thucydides, Plato, etc. etc. When one arrived in seminary he was then subjected to extensive work in virtually every class in using Greek to understand the texts. In Seminary BDF and BAG (1st ed of today's BDAG) were used. Before one graduated it was required that one be able to translate both Greek and Hebrew texts and to demonstrate this in an exam. Rough ? Yes, but well worth it. To the best of my knowledge the Seminary has held the line on language requirements. Let's hope they continue to do so.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138810#Comment_138810

We can cut a tree down, then cut it up, for firewood. Before the fire-season raises all the trees to the ground. Language is not easy.

--"razes." But the point is well made when you read it aloud. No, language is not easy.

try not to cause them to doubt their English translation(s).

Not much risk for that in an IFB congregation. Inerrant, literal inspiriation is one of their tenants.

"tenets" (tenants are renters or occupants)

Couldn't let that one go since you'd corrected Jim's spelling, and had seen and commented on my thread about this all-too-common error just the other day. [:P]

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/139050#Comment_139050

Couldn't let that one go since you'd corrected Jim's spelling, and had seen and commented on my thread about this all-too-common error just the other day.

Its neat to have an older brother or sister to fight off the bullies [:)]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/139050#Comment_139050

Couldn't let that one go since you'd corrected Jim's spelling, and had seen and commented on my thread about this all-too-common error just the other day.

I'm still trying to prove my point to George Somsel that Noah Webster was a great man....

or maybe I'm still trying to amuse Michael Aubrey with how illiterate I can get....

or maybe I'm checking to see if you & MJ are still awake...

or maybe I'm just a silly bully..... (Now that glass slipper fits nicely.)

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/139054#Comment_139054

if you & MJ are still awake

I am but I'm signing off to read one of those books Logos doesn't have yet - and it's been published for 2 years!

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/139054#Comment_139054

Couldn't let that one go since you'd corrected Jim's spelling, and had seen and commented on my thread about this all-too-common error just the other day.

I'm still trying to prove my point to George Somsel that Noah Webster was a great man....

or maybe I'm still trying to amuse Michael Aubrey with how illiterate I can get....

or maybe I'm checking to see if you & MJ are still awake...

or maybe I'm just a silly bully..... (Now that glass slipper fits nicely.)

Perhaps you are a "Silly Billy", but you won't hear that from me (since it could be that I'm one too). I never would deny that Noah Webster was a great man. So was John Calvin a great exegete -- FOR HIS TIME. But the hands on the clock move forward and not backward. The God of the Prophets must also bless the prophets sons and, throwing Elijah's mantle up Elisha. He must "make each one nobler, stronger than the last. This applies in lexicography as well. Give me a dictionary which not only gives a history of the usage of words [OED] but also its contemporary meaning.

Robert McNamara

Is there anyway I can test drive this? You know, try it out to see if I want to invest in it?

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306704#Comment_306704

Is there anyway I can test drive this? You know, try it out to see if I want to invest in it?

Yes, purchase it and try it. If you don't like it, tell them to take it back (within 30 days).

Justin Gentry

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138690#Comment_138690

How has Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew worked for you so far? Do you recommend it?

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343148#Comment_343148

Its a lot of money for this course, and I live where shipping is not easy or cheap. I've been waiting a long time for some feedback or reviews. Seems silent out there which makes me increasingly reluctant.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138820#Comment_138820

Actually, it does take work when you're learning a second language as an adult. If you think it worthwhile, you will expend the time and effort. If not, you don't belong in the ministry.

Well, any minister who has opportunity to learn Greek and Hebrew should take advantage of that opportunity. Not to do so is simply not to take the Word of God seriously.

However, not all have the opportunity, and God has called and used some ministers powerfully who did not know Greek or Hebrew. So I would really not question God's choice in the matter. But if you have the opportunity, TAKE IT!

And these Logos language tools are great as far as they go, but they are no substitute for really learning the language. There is no equivalent substitute.

David J Cadenhead

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/408647#Comment_408647

However, not all have the opportunity, and God has called and used some ministers powerfully who did not know Greek or Hebrew. So I would really not question God's choice in the matter. But if you have the opportunity, TAKE IT!

And these Logos language tools are great as far as they go, but they are no substitute for really learning the language. There is no equivalent substitute.

After reading the above quoted comments (all , quoting in this post, the last), I have to agree wholeheartedly and very strongly post with

GREAT EMPHASIS,

that if one gets the chance to learn "Biblical" Hebrew (Masoretically, pointed) and/or Greek in the slow, peripatetic, pedantic way of pedagogy of the past. Do it by all means. Not all who are called , unfortunately, get the chance, (as above), If you are presented with the choice, I suggest you pray about it, because:

I purchased ,(am glad that I have done so), all of the possible Hebrew Resources available from Logos, and, yes with the use of Logos, and Shibboleth, one can move through the Hebrew Scrolls of the Scripture, but only in an agonizingly slow way. You can parse words, phrases, etc., however , in order to learn to actually READ, as you may be reading this post, the student needs to learn experientially. What I mean is that without the knowledge of the exceptions to the rule, which I have found only by the help of several texts of Grammar, and a Learned Scholar who experienced their first exposure to Hebrew, either as a first language, or better, as a student, WANTING DESPERATELY, to be able to read the early Scriptures in the language they were penned, Logos' Resources serve as a tool in that process, or to that end, only. One would (in my opinion, only), need the ease that Logos provides in breaking down hard to translate areas, and in giving examples of the "rules" an excellent resource to the student whose heart is in the Learning of the language, as opposed to a black box translator, based on "Hebrew in, a rendition of English out," and understanding, maybe yes, maybe no. As to the fall of the leaning Tower of Academia, away from learning Hebrew from a Scholar, or translating it , only, I am sad to say that the value of, and appreciation of reading in a native language has leaned to the point of falling. I was told by a Seminary Graduate to Quit my Hebrew class, as it was a waste of my time. I wish he had slapped me instead. Although a struggle, it is because of those struggles that I have developed a relationship with my Hebrew Professor, his wife, and children, that I shall cherish for the rest of my life, truly, "In The Word," as it was written.

IF ONE CAN AFFORD, or is presented the chance, to receive Directed Biblical Hebrew Learning , they are in for a climb up a mountain of significant proportion.But please, do so! All of the above notwithstanding, I compare the Logos Language Resources, at this point, to the finest pair of Hiking Boots,currently available: Light, supportive, blister and water-proof, and sooo comfortable,If you can afford them). Wet feet, dirty socks, and blisters can lead to trench foot. I am not one who advocates self inflicted flagellation. Logos' Resources have partially removed that from the Trek of Learning The Holy Scripture in their native languages, (NOTE: All of the above, is My sole and unadulterated and un-redacted,(yet), opinion. I am oh, so, human, in all that I attempt). I do thank a Triune Headmaster for my hike up Language Mountain: The Group of Learned Authors who have published the several grammars and texts available, My Professor, for who and what he stands for, has done for me, and The Group of Logos Scholars, for having built the zippiest, cutting edge language tool, I am aware of that is available to date, for the Student of Hebrew/Greek. With these, the motivated learner can be taught how to, carefully, with guidance, to somehow reduce these two languages into digest-able chunks that can be much more easily be used, in a helpful,"Heart/Soul-Nutricious/Benificial" manner.

djc ("Didymus")