Why the Repeated, Sequential Indexing?
Just about every time I open L8 now, I have to wait for indexing to finish. And again. And again.
I'm seeing two, three, or even four consecutive sequential indexing sequences. A few things will download, and L8 will index. As soon as it is done, a few more things download, and it indexes again. This is incredibly inefficient.
While indexing, much as it has for the last ten years since L4, indexing pretty much locks up my computer. I can live with one cycle of indexing, but multiple cycles are almost intolerable.
I started L8 about an hour ago, and I'm now in my third download/indexing cycle. It took me 7+ minutes just to get this forum thread posted, because of how slow the machine runs during indexing.
Each time I go through this, I'm drawn to Gen. Berenger's quote from War Games-
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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A consequence of a large library is more frequent updates. [:s] Make sure to turn automatic downloads off. This will allow you to download and index less often.
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JT (alabama24) said:
turn automatic downloads off. This will allow you to download and index less often
No, not really. It still indexes multiple times when I run the downloads. That's my primary question: Why doesn't it download and then index one time?
It didn't used to do this, at least not most of the time. And occasionally, it doesn't now, but it does most of the time.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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I feel your pain. I have 30,000+ resources in my library. I rarely use Logos anymore it is so bogged down. And that's not even when it's Indexing. It's just SLOW. Can't even switch to it and start typing something in the Library filter box without waiting 5-10 seconds for it to "wake up" and start accepting input. And every time I open the app if I happened to have had a Search tab open the last time I shut it down, it has to go and redo that search which I don't care about anymore, which can't be interrupted. Ditto for Guide tabs. I've always complained that old Search & Guide tabs should *not* rerun by default when the app is reopened, but should require the user to ask for them to be rerun if the user wants that, which I'd guess would be < 5% of the time.
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Rosie Perera said:
And every time I open the app if I happened to have had a Search tab open the last time I shut it down, it has to go and redo that search which I don't care about anymore, which can't be interrupted. Ditto for Guide tabs. I've always complained that old Search & Guide tabs should *not* rerun by default when the app is reopened, but should require the user to ask for them to be rerun if the user wants that, which I'd guess would be < 5% of the time.
+1 [Y] along with New Search tab repeating last search, which wastes more time since did not need last search run again before doing a New search (would be OK with last search appearing in New tab, but needing user to click arrow to run it). If had wanted to rerun previous Search, would have chosen "Duplicate This Panel"
FYI: before closing Logos for an application upgrade, personal quirk is closing search & guide tabs.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Doc B said:
Why doesn't it download and then index one time?
I think it does. I think however, that you likely had a software update too. When that happens, there are several moving parts.
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Doc B said:
Just about every time I open L8 now, I have to wait for indexing to finish. And again. And again.
Part of the solution is not to close Logos i.e. keep it open until a restart is requested (along with turning off Auto Start Downloads).
The the next dependency is the resources that are in your layout and the datasets you have used, because a restart will be required if they are being updated. There is not much you can do about that, apart from deliberately restarting Logos to a blank layout when a download is notified.
If indexing has started and a software update requires a restart, then don't do it until indexing has completed.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Some of the responses you have got DOC B give me the impression people are not listening to your concerns but simply thinking ahead to the quick defence they can provide to basically say to you ‘suck it up, it is what it is’, just in a normal nicer sounding way.
I know exactly what you are talking about, this would still happen if you only ever updated manually. It’s not that you have to update, it’s that the architecture of the software and it’s update process that it requires multiple downloads, updates and restarts ( and user interventions) because multiple things are waiting in the queue at once instead of this queue being managed in the background and hidden from the user. As it stands your computer becomes unusable but you have to sit their and watch it, and press the button to go to the next step in the sequence, so you become unproductive too.
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Dave Hooton said:
Part of the solution is not to close Logos
It is interesting that you suggest this because this has been my strategy for some time.
But I also agree that the speed of starting Logos is an issue that needs to be improved.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Rosie Perera said:
And every time I open the app if I happened to have had a Search tab open the last time I shut it down, it has to go and redo that search
This is counterbalanced by a reopen closed tab of a search remembering nothing of it's state when closed ... anyone remember when the counterbalance technology was used for cable cars on Queen Anne? but I digress . . .
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DIsciple II said:
Some of the responses you have got DOC B give me the impression people are not listening to your concerns but simply thinking ahead to the quick defence they can provide to basically say to you ‘suck it up, it is what it is’, just in a normal nicer sounding way.
Perhaps you thought I was one of the ones who was implying "suck it up" but I was not. I was heaping abuse on Logos for being so slow (in other areas as well). Essentially commiserating with the OP.
I just brought a brand new laptop, asked for one with sizzling fast specs (https://www.msi.com/Laptop/GS65-Stealth-Thin-8RF), and had them upgrade it to 32GB of super-fast RAM (G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR4-2400 SO-DIMM) and a 2TB SSD (WD Black SN750 2TB PCIe Gen3 x4 NVMe M.2 2280 Read:3400Mb/s,Write: 2900MB/s). Installed Logos fresh on it, let it download everything and complete indexing, and was disappointed already at the speed. Ugh. I'm really tired of this.
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Rosie Perera said:
Perhaps you thought I was one of the ones who was implying "suck it up" but I was not. I was heaping abuse on Logos for being so slow (in other areas as well). Essentially commiserating with the OP.
I just brought a brand new laptop, asked for one with sizzling fast specs (https://www.msi.com/Laptop/GS65-Stealth-Thin-8RF), and had them upgrade it to 32GB of super-fast RAM (G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR4-2400 SO-DIMM) and a 2TB SSD (WD Black SN750 2TB PCIe Gen3 x4 NVMe M.2 2280 Read:3400Mb/s,Write: 2900MB/s). Installed Logos fresh on it, let it download everything and complete indexing, and was disappointed already at the speed. Ugh. I'm really tired of this.
I'm sure someone will be in any moment to explain that you just need to get an SSD in order to... Oh.
(I don't have an SSD, but I still refuse to accept that it's thus necessary for Logos to take a full 30 seconds to switch to the homepage from my current layout.)
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Rosie I did not read your response that way. You showed you had fully read DOC B’s concerns and identified with them.
I have a similar sized library to you so I know you get the pain. My machine is a couple of years old now and fairly basic spec. I will need to consider a new one next year with Logos 9 way expected and finally get a SSD. I know I’m late to that party but playing with hardware is not my thing so I don’t do DIY upgrades.
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Sean said:
I'm sure someone will be in any moment to explain that you just need to get an SSD in order to... Oh.
(I don't have an SSD, but I still refuse to accept that it's thus necessary for Logos to take a full 30 seconds to switch to the homepage from my current layout.)
If anyone suggests that not having a SSD causes this to take 30 secs clearly they have drunk the full carton of FL Kool Aid.
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DIsciple II said:
Some of the responses you have got DOC B give me the impression people are not listening to your concerns but simply thinking ahead to the quick defence they can provide to basically say to you ‘suck it up, it is what it is’, just in a normal nicer sounding way.
The response that is needed has to come from Faithlife, and Rosie has complained about her situation over several years. Just as Libronix began to hit a wall when resources reached one thousand (or earlier), Logos is suffering with resources over nine thousand (or so). I have 2250, and no real issues with my strategy (above).
Unfortunately, Rosie and DocB may have to consider offloading resources to the "cloud" (or perform a fresh install with "Recommended" resources). They can at least Search their Library in the Cloud when necessary, or download resources when needed.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Having the Text Creation Partnership, I have > 50,000 resources which have been divided between hidden and active for years. Now I split the active group between cloud and local. But that has no effect on my longest wait times ... building the pick lists ... My system would speedy up significantly if the app simply accepted what I typed rather than insisted I selected from the $#&&*^*& list which does a %^(^&(^&*( job of even offering the right option on a multipart name in Factbook. The initial loads are measured in minutes not seconds.Dave Hooton said:Unfortunately, Rosie and DocB may have to consider offloading resources to the "cloud" (or perform a fresh install with "Recommended" resources). They can at least Search their Library in the Cloud when necessary, or download resources when needed.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dave Hooton said:
Unfortunately, Rosie and DocB may have to consider offloading resources to the "cloud" (or perform a fresh install with "Recommended" resources). They can at least Search their Library in the Cloud when necessary, or download resources when needed.
Ugh. I've already long ago given up curating my library by tagging thoroughly and creating useful collections, after I hit about 200 of the latter, most of which were never completely accurate because I have so many resources. I just don't have time for all that library management. And now you're saying I also need to manage which resources I have locally on my machine and which ones are in the cloud? And wait to download a resource every time I want to open one that isn't one of the "Recommended" resources? Ugh.
I guess my enthusiasm about buying every resource that looked potentially interesting to me over the years ended up being my downfall.
I've spent $169,854.51 on my Logos Library over nearly 30 years. Feeling like I've spent about $150,000 too much. [:(]
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I came here tonight out of frustration after attempting to install Logos on a new computer, and came across this thread. The thing will be indexing all night, and for now the computer is unusable. I can honestly say that I've never encountered another piece of software that behaves in this way. Even on a good day the software of late feels so sluggish at times. Something with such incredible capabilities should be a joy to use, but using Logos has become pretty joyless lately.
My experience tonight reminded me of a blog post Bob wrote way back in 2007, so I went looking for it and found it. It's entitled "When I Hit the Button, Do Something!" He wrote:
"Despite the increasing computational capacity of our devices, the problem seems to be getting worse. User interface responsiveness seems to lie low on the list of priorities in many contemporary electronic devices.
There’s not much I can add to Dennis Forbes’ post except “Amen!”.
Talk about irony! No other piece of software I own exemplifies this sentiment the way Logos does. It seems that "user interface responsiveness" is quite low on the priority list lately.
His post can be found here: http://bobpritchett.com/2007/08/when_i_hit_the_button_do_somet/
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Dave Hooton said:
The response that is needed has to come from Faithlife
Never has a truer word been spoken on these forums.
We need to be open and honest with FL about this issues and their impact and not just explain them away on behalf of FL when somebody does raise a problem. FL need to feel the weight of user expectations, frustrations and disappointments otherwise management will continue to think everything is fine and dandy. And I am sure they don't want users who have reached 9,000 titles to all of a sudden stop buying resources because the software can't handle it.
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Doc B said:
I started L8 about an hour ago, and I'm now in my third download/indexing cycle. It took me 7+ minutes just to get this forum thread posted, because of how slow the machine runs during indexing.
Sounds abnormal so curious about storage device ? Also curious if have contacted Faithlife Technical Support about download/index cycles ?
[:$] Mea culpa after reading Sean's reply about SSD. Description of 7+ minutes to get a forum thread posted sounds like a hard drive (so indexing adversely affects performance of other computer tasks as indexing reads & writes a lot to disk). Since migrating to SSD years ago had forgotten about hard drive bottleneck (hard drive can only read/write to one place on whole disk at a time while SSD can read/write many storage places simultaneously).
MJ. Smith said:But that has no effect on my longest wait times ... building the pick lists ... My system would speedy up significantly if the app simply accepted what I typed rather than insisted I selected from the $#&&*^*& list which does a %^(^&(^&*( job of even offering the right option on a multipart name in Factbook.
Dreaming of customization options for automated assistance. For original languages, my preference is root and lemma (seldom search for specific conjugated form). Search suggestion annoyance is Large Text for ([field largetext] ...). Personally would rather turn off pick list assistance since does not help my Bible study (but rather slows down study that includes pick list appearing after search is in progress OR appear again after search - tab selection change OR resize window).
Dave Hooton said:Unfortunately, Rosie and DocB may have to consider offloading resources to the "cloud" (or perform a fresh install with "Recommended" resources). They can at least Search their Library in the Cloud when necessary, or download resources when needed.
Another option is a big purchased library and a small demonstration library. Initially created a secondary Faithlife account for demonstration purposes. Demonstration account with $ 0.00 order total has Logos 7+8 Basic, Verbum 7+8 Basic, Home School, Logos 8 Fundamentals (Thankful for Logos 8 Upgrade including free Logos 7 Fundamentals gift so Logos 8 Fundamentals upgrade was $ 20 that was covered by a Faithlife coupon). Thankful can use Logos 8 & Verbum 8 at the same time. Demonstration account is often useful for forum questions and personal Bible study (smaller library of 466 resources with 112 in the cloud can be noticeably faster than larger library having 28,000+ resources). Demonstration account was also useful for migrating shared Faithlife documents (especially collections and visual filters) that were bogging down purchased library.
Rosie Perera said:I just brought a brand new laptop, asked for one with sizzling fast specs (https://www.msi.com/Laptop/GS65-Stealth-Thin-8RF), and had them upgrade it to 32GB of super-fast RAM (G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR4-2400 SO-DIMM) and a 2TB SSD (WD Black SN750 2TB PCI-Express 3.0 x4 NVMe M.2 2280 Read:3400Mb/s,Write: 2900MB/s). Installed Logos fresh on it, let it download everything and complete indexing, and was disappointed already at the speed. Ugh. I'm really tired of this.
I'm sorry for really tired of this (while wondering if Faithlife understands what is disappointing for daily use).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Rosie Perera said:
I just don't have time for all that library management. And now you're saying I also need to manage which resources I have locally on my machine and which ones are in the cloud?...
I understand your response because I wasn't "saying" there was a need to do that (I wrote "unfortunately" and "may"). Martha's response also showed it is not the answer. So, back to Faithlife!
For interests sake, how big is your Logos folder and how long does it take to index a few resources e.g. with an update?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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David J Heintzman said:
Talk about irony! No other piece of software I own exemplifies this sentiment the way Logos does. It seems that "user interface responsiveness" is quite low on the priority list lately.
Library catalog refresh has automatic refresh of Library display, which annoying forgets which resource was selected (so trying to read resource information while catalog index or collection cache is rebuilt can cause user selection to vanish without any user action).
Concur with irony! as more recent Logos & Verbum releases automatically try to be more user helpful (while effectively being more of a hindrance to experienced power users).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Yikes! I don't have nearly the amount of resources you all do but my surface pro 3 works great w/ Logos. The only multiple indexing I get is between resources and datasets. Some resources are slow to load I agree but I chalked that up to the age of my computer.
I hope you all get it figured out!
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Hi Doc B
I'm going to contact you offline.
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I think the dribble downloading is something Logos should look into.
I've turned off auto download. I open to a blank screen. This saves gobs of time on any installation. If you open with a layout that has floating panels or searches, you will pay dearly in how fast it settles down to use.
I decided to update a machine with an SSD this past week. Apparently the machine was on it's last breath and died shortly after, so I have an SSD which will get transplanted somewhere else.
While it ran it was just fine, but frankly Logos is a pig, especially if you think you think you can run it on the standard presets with a big dowloaded layout and auto download.. You don't put the Alaskan Pipeline through a straw. I think even the optimum specs for Logos install hardware that FL publishes are conservative. I'm not exactly happy at the thought of buying an expensive machine, but Logos is demanding software if you have a large library.
I forget where the story originates, but if you don't have room for an elephant in your tent, don't make friends with the elephant trainer.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Not to downplay in any way the legitimate frustrations here... mine being -- like MJ's -- more with the autopopulate lists, but it also takes quite a long time for Windows to rebuild its search index and it's search is not even that effective in the end.
My question is whether the now defunct Bibleworks or the current Accordance offer a similar level of complexity to searches yet is able to do it with much better performance. If so, this could be indication that the number of resources and the depth of tagging is not the real problem. If not, then the question would remain how do we know that we can do much better beside wishing for it? I am not suggestive of an answer, but genuinely asking others what they know about this.
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Francis said:
Not to downplay in any way the legitimate frustrations here... mine being -- like MJ's -- more with the autopopulate lists, but it also takes quite a long time for Windows to rebuild its search index and it's search is not even that effective in the end.
My question is whether the now defunct Bibleworks or the current Accordance offer a similar level of complexity to searches yet is able to do it with much better performance. If so, this could be indication that the number of resources and the depth of tagging is not the real problem. If not, then the question would remain how do we know that we can do much better beside wishing for it? I am not suggestive of an answer, but genuinely asking others what they know about this.
Hi Francis,
BW, when it was operational, came with a fixed set of resources. It does not index, but searches do not search the entire library, only the primary texts. It defaults to only searching one text, but you can set it to search all texts with that language. In addition the morphological text is separate from the primary text, which means you search the morph text for lemmas. By having essentially a closed system, with little option to add resources, indexing is not required. You cannot search your entire library.
Accordance does not index. It does some very complex searches quickly, however, Accordance does not have the "data sets" for person, sense, topic, etc. that Logos has. It uses Strongs or the GK (NIV) #s for tying to their reverse interlinears. For many the speed of Accordance when working with the original languages and not using indexing is a strong selling point. Accordance does not offer 50K in resources for sale.
So really you have different products to some extent. Depending on your focus people choose which is best for them. Logos is a complex product with all the data sets they tie to their biblical texts, reverse interlinears tied to OL, etc. This requires indexing to allow for faster searches.
It is probably safe to say that Logos innovates and uses a ready .... shoot... aim process in their development. They release and fix later. This does not always allow for efficiency in how the program works. They have always been that way, but they also offer features that the others do not. Whether they re useful or usable, depends on the user. Not justifying anything, just stating my perception of how things work.
Hopefully the above is stated objectively and not intended to refute the requests for improvements of other on this thread. Who doesn't want the program to work faster and be less disruptive to workflows?
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DIsciple II said:
Rosie I did not read your response that way. You showed you had fully read DOC B’s concerns and identified with them.
I have a similar sized library to you so I know you get the pain. My machine is a couple of years old now and fairly basic spec. I will need to consider a new one next year with Logos 9 way expected and finally get a SSD. I know I’m late to that party but playing with hardware is not my thing so I don’t do DIY upgrades.
I only have half the size your library and Rosie’s and when it’s indexing it even affects my word document that I’m working on. So maybe I’ll just buy as needed and upgrade but maybe no more adding books to my library in future library upgrades because it really slows it down when it’s indexing. I think I have plenty for now. I’ll probably do one final library upgrade before Logos 9 and during L9, but we’ll see.
DAL
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My library is indexing often as well. I don't have as many resources as some so it's not a big problem, but I also wondered why it's happening. I also have lost the sidebar/filters to my library which I posted in it's own thread, but wonder if somehow this is related??
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Linda said:
I also have lost the sidebar/filters to my library which I posted in it's own thread, but wonder if somehow this is related??
It is unrelated. Has someone responded to your other thread? I'll see if I can find it.
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Dave Hooton said:
Part of the solution is not to close Logos i.e. keep it open until a restart is requested
Absolutely, unequivocally, insurmountably out of the question. Logos is too large a resource hog to leave open.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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