Who is Tony Evans? Educate me.
Tony Evans seems to be cropping up in a few posts but who is he?; Outside of my ‘cultural experience‘ since I’m not from that part of the world.
Who is he beyond the dusk jacket promo on the book cover? Has he been newsworthy lately that makes him topical or what is it that makes his books of interest? Is there more to him than just the name? What is his area(s) of interest/expertise and denomination / tradition.
I‘be quite possibly got some of his material in my library as part of a base package or other collection so be good to know more of him?
* Thought I had posted in general but this ended up in suggestions. 🙄
Comments
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Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Evans_(pastor)
Other: https://premierespeakers.com/tony-evans/bio
Another: https://www.allamericanspeakers.com/celebritytalentbios/Tony+Evans/4634
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Here’s his website with some freebies: https://tonyevans.org/
DAL
Ps. Freebies direct link: https://go.tonyevans.org/freebies-from-tony-evans?__hstc=235029662.37e1a7cfca18631f7459618bebf85051.1572565341491.1572565341491.1572565341491.1&__hssc=235029662.2.1572565341491&__hsfp=1799472798
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One of the reasons I like him is because he uses great illustrations to teach biblical truth.
His son (Anthony) has had moderate success as a singer. His daughter (Priscilla Shirer) is an increasingly well known teacher in women's ministry circles.
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JT (alabama24) said:
One of the reasons I like him is because he uses great illustrations to teach biblical truth.
His son (Anthony) has had moderate success as a singer. His daughter (Priscilla Shirer) is an increasingly well known teacher in women's ministry circles.
His son should find a new calling. So should his daughter. The few times I’ve seen her ”speak” she literally reads her manuscripts. So she’s not really a speaker, but a reader.
The dad (Tony) he’s a different story. Very practical and motivational. Sometimes apples do fall very far away from the tree. Just an observation.
DAL
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Thanks to those who have responded. I was looking to know him through your eyes and why you want his material in your library in addition to the standard biographical presentation of him.
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DIsciple II said:
Tony Evans seems to be cropping up in a few posts but who is he?
I had never heard of him before. The only reason I reported a bug recently about searching for his books is because I was trying to figure out who he was after having seen someone else post about him, and had a hard time getting the website to work for me on that quest.
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Rosie Perera said:DIsciple II said:
Tony Evans seems to be cropping up in a few posts but who is he?
I had never heard of him before. The only reason I reported a bug recently about searching for his books is because I was trying to figure out who he was after having seen someone else post about him, and had a hard time getting the website to work for me on that quest.
I am not alone then in my lack of familiarity with him. 🙂
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I think most would be unfamiliar with him unless they listened to his radio show “The Urban Alternative,” which was a 30 minute version of his Sunday morning preaching.
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Well respected, black evangelical who preaches dynamically in the black tradition, with a firm commitment to expositing the Scriptures. Terrific illustrator. Has several books published by Moody Press. First ThD graduate of Dallas Seminary. His church, Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship, is located in Dallas, in Oak Cliff neighborhood. Currently, his wife Lois is in a tough battle with cancer.
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Ted Weis said:
First ThD graduate of Dallas Seminary.
First African-American ThD graduate of Dallas Seminary is what I think you meant to write for that is the case.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Ted Weis said:
Well respected, black evangelical who preaches dynamically in the black tradition, with a firm commitment to expositing the Scriptures...First [African-American] ThD graduate of Dallas Seminary.
It is his merger of the African-American preaching tradition and solid Evangelical exegesis that sets him apart in my honest opinion.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Thanks all👍
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Hi Dal:
There is a "strategy for cultural transformation" free course, have you taken it? and if you have, how was it?
He seems to write a lot about spiritual warfare, is he charismatic?
Thanks ahead of time for the input.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Hi Dal:
There is a "strategy for cultural transformation" free course, have you taken it? and if you have, how was it?
He seems to write a lot about spiritual warfare, is he charismatic?
Thanks ahead of time for the input.
No, I have not taken the course. And yes, he is charismatic. I’m not, but I learn what I can and the rest just toss it aside.
DAL
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Actually he is not Charismatic.
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Thank you DAL, fair enough.
Somehow I got quite of his books, but have not gotten to check them out by subject yet.
I wish there was a function that statistically gave the amount of treatment of keywords in a particular authors collection, so one could have an idea of what kind of information he / she will be focusing on.
AI maybe in the future? LOL.
No doubt, we are approaching researcher's bliss more and more. LOL.
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Hi Nord:
That is interesting, if he is not charismatic how can someone talk about spiritual warfare?
From what the Bible shows, discernment of spirits is very needed for such, not to mention word of science, knowledge, etc.
Is not such what the Bible refers to?
1 Corinthians 14:25
the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
[Bold mine, and it elicits a question, is such way to know that God is with one's group still applies? Just because the Canon is closed does not mean that the devil is not working at present against believers still I guess. How can you be illuminated about the schemes of the devil and how can you fight against them without the charismata?]
I am going to have to start research on how cessationist exegete the above verse, and what the theological and orthopraxisal implication of it are.
Many good resources are going to come out touching about some key related concepts: God's presence, etc.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
if he is not charismatic how can someone talk about spiritual warfare?
How do you define "charismatic"?
Just because a person is a cessationist regarding the "sign gifts" does NOT mean that he/she denies spiritual activity in the present world.
There is a continuum from hard cessation, soft cessation, soft continuation, hard continuation. from p.316 of "The promise" Evans writes "The approach I will seek to explain and defend is that the gift of tongues, while a legitimate experience, is not meant to be a universal experience."
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David Thomas said:
Just because a person is a cessationist regarding the "sign gifts" does NOT mean that he/she denies spiritual activity in the present world.
Concern for spiritual warfare does not belong to our charismatic brethren alone. We Baptists also recognize the present activity of Satan and his minions.
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Jack Caviness said:David Thomas said:
Just because a person is a cessationist regarding the "sign gifts" does NOT mean that he/she denies spiritual activity in the present world.
Concern for spiritual warfare does not belong to our charismatic brethren alone. We Baptists also recognize the present activity of Satan and his minions.
[Y]
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David Thomas said:
How do you define "charismatic"?
I would suppose charismatic means that the charismata is operating in his / her life and that of the group he gathers to have koinonia with.
Evangelical supposedly means to take the Bible serious and believe and practice accordingly, so why most churches have problem with
1 Co 14:25 ?
If Jesus is around (and He is) as Jonathan Edwards testified:
Quote out of L8 will follow:
Jonathan Edwards, some of you have heard of him. He was a Congregational minister in New England 200 years ago. Listen to this little note from his prayer diary:
“Once, as I rode out into the woods for my health, in 1737 … I had a view that was for me extraordinary. [The inward eyes of my heart were opened and I saw the] glory of the Son of God … and his wonderful, great … pure and sweet grace and love.The person of Christ appeared ineffably excellent with an excellency great enough to swallow up all thought and conception, which continued as near as I could judge [as a condition of me, for] about an hour, which kept me the greater part of the time in a flood of tears and weeping aloud. I felt an ardency of soul to be … full of Christ alone; to love him with a holy and pure love; to trust in him; to live upon him; to serve … him.”
Now I don’t know about you, but when I read a statement like that, this is what I think. “Is this guy in the same religion I’m in?” Maybe I’m in the international league, and he’s in the big leagues or something. Don’t be discouraged. He was experiencing the presence of God at a heightened degree, and the presence of God is something you cannot push buttons and experience to the same degree when you go before him in your private prayer or when you come together and go before him corporately, but what the Scripture teaches is we expect far too little of this. We expect so little reality in our lives.
Keller, T. J. (2013). The Timothy Keller Sermon Archive. New York City: Redeemer Presbyterian Church.
So if Jesus is around in modern times, then it implies that the miracles still occur because:
Acts 14:3 So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
As we can see clearly from Scripture, Jesus is the miracle worker, not any man. And if He is around, all is possible.
We live in a fallen region of God's Kingdom (which is ultimate reality and encompasses all), so when Jesus shows around, He can set things right for the love He has for His adopted children (like you and moi), because God dwells in perfection and He is perfection, and can mend as needed our fallen region as He desires.
Now David, note that I share the above with you as the best understanding I myself got from studying about the topic, and do so to encourage further research, reflection and constructive comment.
If what you have to say offers a better explanation, then I can study and see if things are so.
Maybe in the future I will study more about Mr. Tony Evans's theology and praxis, for now I am more interested in Jonathan Edwards, as I think he wrestled with the heart of the matter for true Christian life.
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Hi Jack:
Copy loud and clear, and some Baptists have gone deep into the study of the subject:
https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/22623/truth-aflame
Some understand (the way Jonathan Edwards did), that ultimate reality of God, involves much more than just the map of the terrain (be it confessions, creeds, Scripture, catechisms, etc).
Real life presents a battlefield in the spiritual realm for all true Christians. Hell was not created for humans, but for the devil and his minions, but the war wages because it wants to take down as many humans as possible through deceiving, lying, misguiding, etc.
There is not a demon in every corner, but neither is the evil one in the benches waiting for the right time to operate.
Jesus is the one to foil all of the devil's plots, and when He is around, mega massive smack down for the adversary.
Now you can know all about spiritual warfare, but if you have not charismata, better not get into the fight.
Many believe is not original but in other parts of Scripture validation for the principles are found:
Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.
Talking with some Baptists, I asked if they had determined the cause of death of some missionaries, and kept statistics. They did not.
It happens that Mohamed was poisoned by a Jewish woman, and instead of killing her, he was happy because he said that not having died proved he was a true prophet.
Years later he died because of the complications from that poisoning.
Many times Baptist missionaries are told to accept what is given to eat without reservations. In Islam after what happened to Mohamed, many times do such that they poison food to know if the person is a real missionaries of God.
So the question stands out: how do you send missionaries that have not the charismata, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that Mark 16:18 applies to their situation?
Is like an untrained, unprepared boxer put to slug it with Tyson in his time or some other mega fighter... from some person's point of view, totally irresponsible.
But we must be clear. Church does not save, because such institution did not die for anyone, Jesus Christ died for sinners given to Him by the Father, so He is the one that saves.
Jesus' second mission after dying for us was to baptize us with the Holy Spirit so the koinonia with the Father could be restored (lost after the fall).
1 Corinthians 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
Is about the tongue as of fire atop the individual believer, not about church, its membership, doctrines, etc.
Again, sharing this for encouraging further research, reflection, and constructive comment, not to start polemics.
Peace and grace.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
It happens that Mohamed was poisoned by a Jewish woman, and instead of killing her, he was happy because he said that not having died proved he was a true prophet.
Years later he died because of the complications from that poisoning.
You may wish to read the actual Hadith and how Islam interprets it. https://aboutislam.net/reading-islam/about-muhammad/story-of-the-jewish-woman-who-tried-to-poison-prophet-muhammad/
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Well MJ, that is a different story to what I read for an investigation, it is similar, but the details vary.
There was an article related to the subject in which an American evangelist was telling the story how many converted after his visit. He was surprised, and asked why such had happened.
Someone in the place told him they were amazed how the poison they gave him had no effect, and on the contrary after ingesting it, he had started to preach to them.
It seems that to them such was a sign of true envoy of God or something like that.
The point stands, if in the Bible it mentions God protecting believers from poisoning though the Holy Spirit, is because He knew ahead of time that certain groups were going to try to do just that to His envoys.
Some may think that the poison part of Mark is not original, that was added, but then you have the time Paul was bitten by a poisonous snake after ship wreck, and nothing happened to him. God protect His people.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Well MJ, that is a different story to what I read for an investigation, it is similar, but the details vary.
True story - a very well known storyteller and author wrote a book of Buddhist stories. A friend of mine was asked to write a review so she asked me to read the book for accuracy. The review came out in the evening when the author was trying to catch a 6:00 a.m. flight. He got no sleep that night. How do I know? Because he was on the phone much of the night on calls with me - trying to prove that I was wrong that he had inadvertently misread the stories by reading them with Western eyes. The correction that finally convinced him: in Western fables the same animals are usually considered clever, fast, smart, dishonest, et. al. but in the stories he was retelling the characteristics are story specific. He had retold the story of two birds as if one was clever and one was gullible. He'd missed the clause that put one bird in its native habitat and the other in an unfamiliar habitat. He was no longer mad at me ... Moral: absolutely NEVER believe that the retelling of a story accurately represents the original. Check, check, check.
Hamilton Ramos said:The point stands,
That Muhammad was proven to be a true believer? Just kidding ... and warning to watch your logic very, very carefully.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hamilton Ramos said:
I would suppose charismatic means that the charismata is operating in his / her life
Some believe "the charismata" to be an all or nothing grouping. Others see different lists with a different number of gifts in various contexts. Does a list of all the gifts exists? Does one have to operate in all the gifts in order to operate in any of the gifts. Are all gifts equal? Are any gifts universal?
These questions are clearly in the realm of "debating theology" that is beyond the scope of this forum.
This thread is about "who is Tony Evans, Logos author". If one reader considers charismatic to mean "Believes all gifts are in operation today" and another reader considers charismatic to mean "believes some gifts are in operation today" or "all gifts are in operation, but there is no particular gift that is normative/universal" then the question "is he charismatic" will yield different answers. Cultural settings yield very different thinking about what is normative in the Christian experience.
One reader can honestly claim, "I am charismatic, meaning I believe the Holy Spirit gifts believers for service". Another reader may claim, "if one does not believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as evidenced in speaking in tongues, then he is not charismatic". Tony Evans would be considered charismatic according to the first definition, but not according to the second. The reader must decide if a non-charismatic (according to the 2nd definition) is capable of addressing spiritual warfare.
Your and My understanding of pneumatology are not to be debated here. (I have been careful not to reveal my position).
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MJ:
we have a saying in our sector: "trust, but double check". Nothing wrong with that.
What I did not expect was the particular version of the story you chose:
Jews saying that they were going to hell for some time and then relieved by Muhammed?
If I was not acquainted with you in the forums, I would take that as a propaganda for purgatory. Hell and partial stay in it is foreign to Jews.
Muhammed a true believer? Not quite, remember that the first test is: what does he think of Jesus. If he or anyone do not consider Jesus Christ Lord and Savior, and submit to Him, looking for Christlikeness, is not a true believer.
So in the article you posted, I believe he may go there, but as far as the Jews, there are contextual details that need to be taken into consideration before having an educated guess if they were to end up in hell.
A true believer says that Jesus Christ is not around? I do not think so, true believers know better, if not read the testimony of Jonathan Edwards concerning his Jesus Christ encounter.
How many ways to be poisoned are there? inhalation, injection, ingestion, etc. Even though Mark's Gospel mentions ingestion, from other narratives we understand that God protects His children through the Holy Spirit regardless of the vector.
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David Thomas said:
Some believe "the charismata" to be an all or nothing grouping. Others see different lists with a different number of gifts in various contexts. Does a list of all the gifts exists? Does one have to operate in all the gifts in order to operate in any of the gifts. Are all gifts equal? Are any gifts universal?
Excellent questions, but not to be treated here.
Just for you to research and think:
What did Paul (Apostle to the gentiles) say? "Try to get the higher gifts" (rough paraphrase). What are those higher gifts?
Now who bestows those higher gifts, and to whom? Who decides who is to serve as a particular member for a particular task (hint: the bestower of the gift).
See the above questions clearly show what ecclesiology should be about.
Just one example:
A pastor of a cessationist group is preaching, and in a spiritual sense, he starts getting a message, warning him that a group within the church is trying to do foul play.
He does not know what to think of the situation. He decides to start an investigation. Lo and behold, as told there was fishy biz going on.
Question, who allowed him to receive the info? how? why?
If tending God's flock is one of the most important task there is, how to do it properly without the higher gifts?
As far as robust dialogue goes, what is not wanted in the forums is people to be uncivil, calling names, attacking persons, etc. but if some are genuinely interested in knowing more about each others experience, I see no problem.
Many posters have openly said that they are cessationist, or non-charismatic, and that is ok. What the exchange here should help others explore angles that one may have not explored. Logos platform is perfect for that.
Did I know who Jonathan Edwards was before having Logos? no, did not even know he existed. But now thanks to Logos, the forums, exchanges, etc. I find out that he is truly one of the most amazing theologians ever, he wrestled with concepts and experiences I would like to know more about, and wonder also deeply about.
Is not education about that? refining your explicit knowledge, clearly seeing your implicit one, and getting in touch with what is totally ignored.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
As far as robust dialogue goes, what is not wanted in the forums is people to be uncivil, calling names, attacking persons, etc. but if some are genuinely interested in knowing more about each others experience, I see no problem.
This quote adequately reflects guideline #3. But guideline #2 (in my understanding) prohibits even civil discussion that goes beyond Faithlife products. Honestly discussing one's user experience with Faithlife products is absolutely encouraged, discussing each other's personal faith experiences and theological positions appears to violate #2.
Brother Hamilton, I post this NOT to chastise you! [you indeed have been polite and kind in your words], But as a reminder for myself and all users in the spirit of Guideline #6.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Hamilton Ramos said:
If I was not acquainted with you in the forums, I would take that as a propaganda for purgatory. Hell and partial stay in it is foreign to Jews.
If you would take a Muslim hadith as propaganda for purgatory (assuming you're referring to a Catholic view) ...
If you would take a Muslim hadith and reject it's meaning/assumption that it proves Muhammed is a true believer ...
The woman you are speaking of is Zaynab bint Al-Harith. I haven't found any Jewish versions of the story although there certainly may be some. But the Islamic canonical version can be found here along with a bit of its political effect.
The last time I checked, Jonathan Edwards was not known for his knowledge of Islamic stories nor were Islamic hadith "propaganda" for Christian beliefs.. . . Sorry, but I honestly can't follow your reasoning although I have tried hard. I would have expected a response more along the lines of "I didn't realize I was speaking of a canonical Islamic story"
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Thomas said:
This quote adequately reflects guideline #3. But guideline #2 (in my understanding) prohibits even civil discussion that goes beyond Faithlife products. Honestly discussing one's user experience with Faithlife products is absolutely encouraged, discussing each other's personal faith experiences and theological positions appears to violate #2.
If we are trying to understand where a prolific FL resources author comes from is important, I hope you understand that ethically, FL is into having informed consumers of their products, and not clearly stating where they are coming from violates Christlikeness.
I am enriched by the dichotomy you present about the term charismatic, and when I read in the future Tony Evans, I will look for evidence of how he understands that.
David Thomas said:Brother Hamilton, I post this NOT to chastise you! [you indeed have been polite and kind in your words], But as a reminder for myself and all users in the spirit of Guideline #6.
Fully agree, and I consider you a very good poster. I take seriously what you say, and I am happy that you help enlarge believers' conceptual framework.
Note I did not get into the deeper questions you posted, although they are very important to understand where an author stands with respect the charismata.
The particular senses and nuances is what makes an expert. Supposedly persons that live in snow covered terrain have 8 different terms to designate differences in ice, snow, etc. unlike us.
So the continuum you suggest is interesting to explore the implications of each stance and what to expect of each author within each category.
Some people take offense at reading other groups works, etc. I do not. I have read about cessationists that do not want to have anything to do with charismatics. The attitude is odd to me, because the little I understand from the Bible goes in the way of: check all, retain what is good. Unless there is an exegetical detail (contextual or otherwise) that I missed, I thought that concept is very clear in the Bible.
Peace and grace.
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Yes MJ:
while I at the time that did the research found a credible source that told the story, none of the adoration that attributed the participants with gifts of discernment (Muhammed telling if the people was telling truth or not), nor Jews saying things that were outside their worldview were included.
It seems that the Hadith was edited by Islam to portray falsehood in both accounts, and I know you are not into promoting that.
By you choosing that particular (edited in my view) article, seems like you are supporting conditions and beliefs that do not adjust to the real context of the story.
Now if you were to say: the story of poisoning seems true, but the details of Muhammed discerning truth from error, and the Jews saying that they will go to hell (non existent concept for them) seems farfetched, is what I would have expected.
From the very limited understanding that I have is that Jews or Hebrews of that time believe in Sheol (greek Hades), and they think that they go into there where remain without consciousness, until they are called to a judgment of their actions during lifetime. (not all groups within believed that either).
The two mentioned adornments in the particular article you linked to, made me classify it as iffy. I am surprised that you did not highlight that.
The second article is much closer to what I read. Even though I did not read it all, seems much more plausible to me.
Notice I did not say that you pick the first one for purgatory propaganda, but that someone not knowing you may think that you fully agree with the inflated version presented there, knowing that is not logically possible given the concepts implied and eisegesed to a particular groups.
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Okay, I'm not going down the Humpty-Dumpty definition path again.
And anyone willing to assume that my referring to canonical Islamic sources means I agree with them, is someone I would refuse to discuss such subjects with. So luckily, I'll never run into Islamic purgatory.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ:
no clue what that means, but thanks for the second article anyhow.
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For any following this thread who are unfamiliar with the term "hadith"
noun: Hadith; plural noun: Hadith; plural noun: Hadiths- a collection of traditions containing sayings of the prophet Muhammad which, with accounts of his daily practice (the Sunna), constitute the major source of guidance for Muslims apart from the Koran.
- one of the sayings from the Hadith.
While the lists differ between Shia and Sunni, a number of volumes of hadith are considered canonical for example:
- Kutub al-Sittah, the Six Canonical Books of Hadith.
- Sahih al-Bukhari
- Sahih Muslim
- Sunan Abu Dawud
- Sunan al-Tirmidhi
- Sunan al-Nasa'i
- Sunan Ibn Majah
The only person I know who would be able to answer the question as to what folk stories may be precursors to the canonical version is Alan Dundes. This most likely shows my age more that the current state of scholarship. He is the author of the following books related to the Abrahamic religion (and no, "myth" is not a prerogative.):
- Fables of the Ancients? Folklore in the Qur'an by Alan Dundes
- Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth
- Holy Writ as Oral Lit: The Bible as Folklore
- The Flood Myth
- The Wandering Jew: Essays in the interpretation of a Christian legend
- The Blood Libel Legend: A Casebook in Anti-Semitic Folklore
- The Shabbat Elevator and other Sabbath Subterfuges
- Christmas as a reflection of American Culture
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Let me simplify and correct some things.
Cessationists believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit (the charismata) have ceased. Continuationists believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit (the charismata) are still in operation today.
Charismatics are continuationists that practice the gifts of the Holy Spirit (the charismata).
Charismatic is a broad label. Charismatic is Charismatic whether you attempt to further label (hard, soft) or not. There's not really a hard-vs-soft separation. There's really just one body, one label: Charismatic. The Holy Spirit brings unity, huh? You'll just have to sort through the different types of Charismatics sans further labels like the rest of us.
As for Tony Evans, yes, he is a Charismatic Baptist. This is according to Tony Evans himself. In fact, he is occassionally found in the leading P&C publication-- Charisma.0 -
Scott said:
As for Tony Evans, yes, he is a Charismatic Baptist. This is according to Tony Evans himself. In fact, he is occassionally found in the leading P&C publication-- Charisma.
Thanks Scott for above information. Your clarification is helpful too. It is too easy to apply labels and yet have a incorrect misunderstanding of them so it is good to occasionally take time to stop and think through what they mean.
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Thanks for sharing MJ.
There is an article by title:
Framework for the Study of Implicit Religion: the Psychological theory of implicit religiosity.
In it they have an interesting diagram:
Unlike Islam, Christianity does not rely on myth. Jesus knew things inside people, Jesus knew what really was going on, that was one of His attributes because of His Divinity.
Muhammed did not have such attribute. So portraying him as having such attribute is propaganda, trying to compare him to Jesus, Who has no equal.
Not sure what Islam thinks of Hell. Jews at the time of the alleged story did not have such concept as a key element of their worldview. So such part had to be imposed on a narrative of an event which happened in the historical order, but could not have gone according to that particular version.
Note that the transcendent experiences that continuists have today, is precisely because Jesus Christ the miracle worker is alive, well and present where his sheep gather to worship Him.
I mentioned propaganda, because the adornments in the story want to portray Muhammed as similar to Jesus, when we Christians know such is not.
There are interesting resources about tacit knowledge, which I guess is related to implicit religion:
So using the framework above for us in Christianity, we do not go by myth, but by true story of Jesus' real incarnation, and show of divine powers.
He expected our behavior to do what He prescribed for us to enter the New Covenant, and teach others to do the same, and in that process of becoming a new creature, there was a promise of a transcendent experience:
John 14:21
Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.
Very interesting indeed, even if does not look like, we christians (different ones) are in the same wagon, and we are not the enemy, the enemy is satan and his minions.
More civil sharing will better prepare us to meet his schemes and put them to shame, as we all have good points to share with our other brothers and sisters.
Peace and grace.
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Hi Scott:
I understand what you say, you are either charismatic or not. But in real life things are not so clear cut. For some reason or another some accept certain things while others do not.
Some may say that non-eschatological prophecy exists (Canon is closed), while others may say that if the person doing such does not speak in tongues is not authentic, etc.
the Bible itself is not so clear on this. Stephen the deacon moved in the supernatural under the Holy Spirit, yet there is no record that he spoke in tongues. He could have, just it is not recorded.
So we have to be careful before we make generalizations.
One of the problems that cessationists see with prophecy, word of knowledge, etc. is that they think that that would imply the Canon is not closed.
In reality, the Bible indirectly hints that there are different types of "knowing about things", so there is a distinct possibility of the "for historical purposes" as in warning the Congregation from impeding catastrophe still operates.
My reference to a key Bible verse is because most of us have blind spots. Culturally and otherwise problematic issues that we do not see as a problem for God (e.g. undiscerning consumerism, inactivism against structural evil, etc.). So one way God helps believers see the blind spot and encourages to work on it and ask for help is through the word of knowledge.
Example: A woman is a nurse, and she works in a hospital with both male and female patients. It just happens that when looking at certain naked men, she kind of enjoys it in a worldly manner, that in a particular sense (maybe because a future ministry she will do) is inappropriate. So the minister with the word of knowledge tells her about it in a private meeting together with woman's ministry leader, all coming from God, not him, because he has no way of knowing as a human.
The proper response is for the woman to pray and fast and ask for help to God to remove that old woman clothes (worldly habits, attitudes, etc), and maybe even transfer to pediatrics etc.
Sometimes the higher gifts are needed for removing blind spot obstacles that are in the way of sheep's spiritual growth.
Now would the use of such higher gift aligns with Bible revelation? let's see:
1 Corinthians 14:25
the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
Unlike the above case, it would be more prudent that sensitive private matter be treated in private meeting with the presence of the ministry leader for the case in being.
Se the Gospel is not about speaking in tongues, etc. it is about Exalting the Savior Jesus Christ, preparing sheep for service, and looking for the lost.
If it just happens that speaking in tongues is needed for any particular task within those, it has to be done orderly, and with purpose of building up, not showing off.
Are there places where stuff like the above happens? probably, can they explain their "how to" in neat philosophical, theological and ministerial ways?
probably not. That is why I encourage to learn more about tacit knowledge.
Jonathan Edwards wrestled heavily with supernatural experiences because he had one with Jesus Himself.
https://www.academia.edu/4954956/Spiritual_Perception_in_Jonathan_Edwards
Peace and grace.
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Honestly, Cessationism is indefensible biblically speaking—but I better not even go down that trail.
Oh, and yes, we have biblical evidence that Stephen spoke in tongues upon being “filled with the Holy Spirit.”
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Thanks Pudding for the clarification.
I do understand cessationinsts in the sense that they do not consider prophecy to be still operating because to them it would signify that the Canon is not closed.
I do agree with them that Eschatologically speaking the Canon is closed.
But there is a chance that historical order prophecy is still operating if it is for the build up of the Body of Christ or to give warning about an unwanted event to happen.
In the OT there was prophet school, and not all of their prophecies were recorded in the Bible so yes there is a possibility that non eschatological prophecy still happens.
I also read somewhere that the Bible does not record that Paul spoke in tongues, I am not sure about that.
Peace and grace.
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You're skirting the line here, guys. Let's keep these forums dedicated to help with Logos products, and move the theology to another venue.
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