You Broke Notes
Like an **** I purchased Logos 8 for a commentary series I wanted. If I had it all to do over again I would have never purchased. Yay, notes are searchable! Could we not have made notes searchable without ruining the simplistic design of Notes 7? Was it necessary to so utterly complicate things by taking up 2/3 of the Notes screen with information overload and far more noise to signal ratio than is necessary? I doubt I will be listened to but everything that Gaius said on the Logos Notes overview was spot on! My Notes, my favorite feature of Logos are now unusable! Logos 7 essentially had an imbedded word processor that allowed you to anchor your texts. It was brilliant. I'm trying to use Logos Notes to prepare for a paper and I literally can't do it! I'm now using MS Word and copying and pasting the points I want to write about and their citation into a word document. This is extremely frustrating and disappointing. This will drastically decrease my use of Logos outside of reading from library. Logos 7 was perfect. I hate you've done to notes. I know I'm a minority so I won't be listened to but you ruined it. WAY too much signal to noise. Multiple clicks have been added to do the simplest of tasks.
What was so bad about Logos 7 Notes that you had to completely throw it away? Was it necessary to completely destroy something so functional for a search feature and tags? Could those not have been added without sacrificing simplicity, signal to noise, and screen real estate?
Would you please consider adding a feature where all the new stuff can be hidden so that those of us who liked Notes 7 can at least have some semblance of reality? Word Processor with anchors. Seach = good! Tags = good! Logos is to be commended for that. But outside of searching the notes I've already created, I'd rather use and pen and paper than all the other junk. That's what it is, junk, cluttering up the page. Right clicking is even an adventure now. I watch the videos for Logos 8 and the videos have the old right click menu. I miss that menu. Please bring it back. Also, things seem to arrange themselves in a most recent on top order rather than a most recent on bottom order. My brain has trouble with this. Please make "Date Created" and "Date Modified" sortable by A to Z not just Z to A.
If I had it all to do over again, I would never have upgraded. Very disappointed in Logos.
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I'm trying to use Logos Notes to prepare for a paper and I literally can't do it! I'm now using MS Word and copying and pasting the points I want to write about and their citation into a word document. This is extremely frustrating and disappointing.
I am not a huge fan of the new note system but I do understand what drove the changes. If you want to get beyond your frustration and disappointment, you have to work through it not escape to the familiar. You need to make the new method familiar. I say this given my experience of every time I start a new project using a new feature (or existing feature for a different purpose) I amuse myself with an estimate of how many bugs / errors I will find per hour of useful work. What we need is for everyone to report how a feature fails to meet their needs, as you have here. Report incorrect results and information. FL does try to balance the competing needs. Make your case.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Nathan, I'm sorry you're frustrated with the new Notes tool.
Was it necessary to so utterly complicate things by taking up 2/3 of the Notes screen with information overload and far more noise to signal ratio than is necessary?
You can hide the sidebar and notes list and show them only when you need them, giving you the full width to create and read your content.
Happy to chat if I can be of any help: phil@faithlife.com / 360-685-2314.
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Thank you Phil! Would you have time today? Around 1 or 2 pm central?
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Nathan, FWIW Bellingham is 2 hours behind central time so you're (were) asking for 11am - noon on a Sunday morning... While I believe there's Proclaim support staff on duty Sunday mornings, that's not true of the rest of the company to the best of my knowledge.
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Nathan, I'm sorry you're frustrated with the new Notes tool.
Was it necessary to so utterly complicate things by taking up 2/3 of the Notes screen with information overload and far more noise to signal ratio than is necessary?
You can hide the sidebar and notes list and show them only when you need them, giving you the full width to create and read your content.
Happy to chat if I can be of any help: phil@faithlife.com / 360-685-2314.
Please don't take this discussion out of forums where all those who use may benefit from healthy input into the important feature under question. I have virtually stopped using the notes feature finding it complicated and cumbersome. I agree with Nathan that what was familiar and useful was sacrificed for search and tag capability. I too liked the word processor feature of the old notes. Let's have a healthy discussion about the good and bad about the new notes feature not closet it because it may roil the waters.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.1 1TB SSD
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I actually like the direction of the notes tool. To ME it is simpler to use. It definitely is a learning curve however.
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I don't as much object to the direction, but there are some things I've yet to understand about the new system. What is the use of "anchoring" a note to a resource or highlight?I actually like the direction of the notes tool. To ME it is simpler to use. It definitely is a learning curve however.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.1 1TB SSD
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What is the use of "anchoring" a note to a resource or highlight?
This hasn't changed from the old system as far as I can tell. Did you attach a single note to multiple passages in the old system? Or make some notes by reference and others by selection? That's anchors - the term taken from HTML/URL processing as that is probably the best known outside the nerd world.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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This hasn't changed from the old system as far as I can tell. Did you attach a single note to multiple passages in the old system? Or make some notes by reference and others by selection?
Yes all the above and to complicate I use on different platforms. I have a Fire reader and iOs and Mac. I'm not sure they all work the same.Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.1 1TB SSD
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I am not a Logos novice. With over 900 commentaries I have more invested in Logos than I do my truck. I use Logos for teaching, personal Bible study and to prepare for writing papers for seminary. Anchors are great! I have over 1,300 of them in my Bible. Sometimes you'll want to use a note from outside the Scripture like a quote from Luther or Spurgeon. I do enjoy the fact that Logos 8 is able to anchor outside resources to Biblical text better than Logos 7.
But Logos 7 notes were simplistic. Anchors up top. Below word processor. Notes on Left. Bible/Commentary on Right. Highlight and add to notes. Write your own commentary as you go. There was a separate page that I would sometimes stumble across that had every highlight and every wavy line and every sticky note ever created all individually listed from across every resource (some insane number as I do a lot highlighting and note taking). But it was a panel I never opened. No need to. Now that panel has been added to be a part of notes. That panel you can hide. I do acknowledge that. But the other one you can't. It's too cumbersome, too confusing and too much signal to noise ratio. Logos 7 notes: everything was in a notebook. Each tile in the notebook had a title and was arranged from top to bottom in the order you put them in or according to Scripture. Scroll up scroll down to find what you wrote. Sure a search feature would've been nice but not at the expense of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Thanks for not asking anyone btw before doing such a major overhaul on notes and making it confusing.
New Logos is not simplistic. I can't even figure out where notes are going. So I watch some videos that don't help very much (which btw were not included as part of the Logos 8 video training overview) I spent 30 minutes trying to make due and arrange things for my paper similar to how I use to do notes as best I could given the fact that everything is now completely different. After 30 minutes of working I noticed that Logos 8 highlighted 4 straight pages of commentary in NIGCT Romans. I had selected 4 pages of commentary to send to Logos as a typo because Logos 8 was highlighting every occurrence of "of" within just that commentary. I do not know why. But the typo report never would send. Probably too much info. So I selected just one occurrence of "of" and sent that report. I look 5 minutes later and even though the text is no longer selected (because I selected a single word "of") it HIGHLIGHTED the 4 pages that had been selected earlier and added them to notes. So I removed the highlight. When I did that it deleted everything I had been working on for 30 minutes. Why? I never HIGHLIGHTED 4 pages of material. Nor did I ask it to delete what I was working on. So I attempt again. I begin deleting some notes because I'm trying to figure out my own method for doing notes on this abomination that is called Logos 8 and it highlights a huge section in another commentary. I'm scared to delete the highlight. I don't know what I'll lose now. I just want to be able to walk through Romans and take notes for my paper and attach anchors as necessary without all the added confusion and fluff of Logos 8. That's what it is. Junk and clutter. If it were user friendly people used to Logos 7 would not have the problems they are having with Logos 8 Notes.
Former scholar in residence at Logos once said, "When I use technology, I don't want a buddy, I don't want a friend, I don't want to go on an adventure... I want a slave. I want it to do exactly what I tell it do when I tell it do it." Well said! Logos no longer does what I want it do... what I've paid for it to do. You assumed I wanted it do have and do all this stuff I never wanted it do or have. I love the search feature. But I do not believe you had to sacrifice the functionality or usability of the old notes. I use searchable software everyday at work. None of it is as confusing as Logos 8. How likely am I to recommend Logos to someone? I'm a loyal Logos customer. My bank statement proves it. But I'll have to think about how I answer that question now.
The following is well said by a savvy Logos user. I concur 100%. Fix this now, please Logos. Your overhaul of notes was too invasive and the product is not usable.
I find the new notes format needlessly cumbersome and confusing. The point of Bible software is to bring convenience as well as power to the use of a Libra. I’m a busy pastor preparing weekly sermons and studies, and without my permission or exploring my opinion, someone re-arranged my file drawer. Took away my file tabs and moved my files and made them more time consuming to retrieve, by adding in extra steps and more mouse clicks.
I understand that updating and improving the software is necessary, but by adding this notes tool, Logos has become more frustrating and less helpful, which are hard issues to dismiss when more hours are needed to re-learn a software in the midst of a busy holiday season for a local church pastor. I realize pastors are not the only customer base for Logos, but if academics and students or even some pastors needed more cataloging power, this could have been offered as an add-on.I am disappointed in the roll out of this new feature and would suggest more consideration before surprising the customer in future updates.
Logos is considerably more expensive that other software (Wordsearch, PC Study Bible) but much more powerful. However, if one must take time to learn new complicated systems, what’s the point?
When I called customer service to ask a simple question about where my notes disappeared to, the representative told me she was not allowed to offer training over the phone. I had to request a different representative, who answered my needs and kept me from demanding a refund. If Logos continues to make changes of this nature, it would be wise to hire more customer service reps who can answer questions.
Thoughts from a loyal Logos user.
Extremely disappointed and now getting a little upset,
Nathan
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I just realized what Logos 8 did. It highlighted Romans 1:1 in every commentary I had opened not matter how long the commentary was. Some commentaries are brief on 1:1. Others go on for pages. That's what it did. Why I cannot figure out. I anchored Romans 1:1 to the note as well as the commentary I had opened and selected a partial highlight for the note tile. I never told it to highlight Romans 1:1 in every commentary I had opened. Once again, technology needs to be a slave or it's useless.
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I just realized what Logos 8 did. It highlighted Romans 1:1 in every commentary I had opened not matter how long the commentary was. Some commentaries are brief on 1:1. Others go on for pages. That's what it did. Why I cannot figure out. I anchored Romans 1:1 to the note as well as the commentary I had opened and selected a partial highlight for the note tile. I never told it to highlight Romans 1:1 in every commentary I had opened. Once again, technology needs to be a slave or it's useless.
Anchoring ties it to a milestone, in this case Romans 1:1, so if you are highlighting that milestone every resource, such as commentaries, that has that as a milestone will highlight the milestone.
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Hi David. Thank you for your response. Please don't take this the wrong way as this is not directed at you bur rather I'm just thinking outloud. Since when did Logos start highlighting ALL of every resource dealing with a particular verse because you anchored a verse to your subject? That is a new phenomena and is about the dumbest things I've ever heard. I want to highlight 2-3 sentences of a commentary or lexicon and tie that into Romans 1:1. Logos is highlighting 4 pages or entire paragraphs... and that's supposed to be ok? Logos 8 people are cool with this? I'm not. That's not what I told Logos to do.
How to fix notes:
- Allow for multiple anchors (both commentary and Bible verses) in a single note tile. In other words, stop creating a new tile for each note created. The point of notes is to collect thoughts into an individual file/notebook not scatter them among 400 sticky notes and call that a file (see bold below).
- Once I've made my note for Romans 1:1 and anchored everything I would then like to move on to Romans 1:2 below my Romans 1:1 notes without leaving the screen I've been working on (ala Logos 7 notes). This is probably the biggest issue Logos 7 uses have, that and this 2nd column of clutter that won't go away. Logos is attempting to create a new tile making your previous thought invisible as long as you are working on your new thought. Imagine if you were using Word and as you began a new paragraph Microsoft made each paragraph you had finished writing disappear until you went retrieved it but when you went and retrieved it you could only look at that one paragraph. How productive do you think you would be??? People need to see their thoughts and ideas flow and Logos is attempting to prevent that by partitioning each idea into a separate tile so people can't see their thoughts flow. Logos 7 Notebook: Romans 1 -> Then under the same Word Processor: Tile#1: Romans 1:1 -> Tile#2 Romans 2:2 etc etc till Romans 1:32 and a new notebook is created for Romans 2. That's what Logos 7 used to be and it was brilliant. This is nonsense.
- Remove this 2nd column of nothing but tiles or make this thing hide-able. Sidebar is hide-able. Why isn't this thing? It's cluttering up my screen. If you're going to force me to have it at least make it where I can combine tiles into a single note (ie. drop and drag). But please make this to where I can suppress it just like side bar as I have no use for it.
- Here is where you say "Just use the expand button in the top right next to the check mark and three circles and it goes away." Please listen to me very carefully because this will fix the problem. Logos 7 users want to LIVE in expanded view. The problem is that from expanded view you cannot begin a new note without losing the note you are working one. If I could work inside expanded view and have each new note show up underneath the note tile I was just working on, all while being in the same notebook, I don't think you will have a problem with Logos 7 Notes loyalist.
- Bring back titles. That was a lovely feature. Above "Anchors" there should be "Title" . Where did that go?
- My notes are arranging themselves in an inverted manner (Romans 1:32 - 1:1). Logos is assuming that the most recently submitted thing belongs on top. It doesn't, it belongs on bottom. This is highly frustrating.
- Anchors on Logos 7 could be entered using the "Enter" key. Logos 8 requires you perform a mouse click. Please fix this.
- Just because I attach an anchor to Romans 1:1 ESV/NASB and desire to add 2-3 sentences of highlight from a commentary to that anchor does not mean I want 4 pages of commentary highlighted across every open Romans commentary. This is extremely frustrating. Please fix.
- Just because I delete an anchor does not mean that I want 4 pages of commentary highlighted. I say this because I've had both happen. This is extremely frustrating please fix.
Dear Logos, I'm trying to be constructive and give you the feedback you need to remedy and very real problem that YOU created. I'm not mad, I'm just very disappointed and frustrated because I can't rely on Logos for paper preparation until you fix this. I sincerely hope you will take these comments and the comments of other Logos 7 users into account and fix Logos 8 and abandon this mindset of "just get used to the new way of doing things." The problem is fixable (see bold above) which is why I'm trying to help. But I have nothing good to say about notes until you fix this. It's searchable. Great. Searchable doesn't really matter if it's not usable. Great for the notes I've already created. Worthless going forward.
Respectfully,
Nathan
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Since when did Logos start highlighting ALL of every resource dealing with a particular verse because you anchored a verse to your subject? That is a new phenomena and is about the dumbest things I've ever heard. I want to highlight 2-3 sentences of a commentary or lexicon and tie that into Romans 1:1. Logos is highlighting 4 pages or entire paragraphs... and that's supposed to be ok? Logos 8 people are cool with this? I'm not. That's not what I told Logos to do.
Just curious, why would you anchor a highlight?Allow for multiple anchors (both commentary and Bible verses) in a single note tile. In other words, stop creating a new tile for each note created. The point of notes is to collect thoughts into an individual file/notebook not scatter them among 400 sticky notes and call that a file (see bold below).
This is possible. But you would anchor selected text instead of the reference milestone.Remove this 2nd column of nothing but tiles or make this thing hide-able. Sidebar is hide-able. Why isn't this thing? It's cluttering up my screen. If you're going to force me to have it at least make it where I can combine tiles into a single note (ie. drop and drag). But please make this to where I can suppress it just like side bar as I have no use for it.
If you make your note "full" (the arrows in the top right corner of the note) it shows you only the editors and not the "tiles", which are individual notes.Logos 7 users want to LIVE in expanded view.
Just for fairness, you want this, not all past Logos 7 users want this. I actually do not want that, I personally like the new system.Bring back titles. That was a lovely feature. Above "Anchors" there should be "Title" . Where did that go?
Agreed, however, they have made the decision that this will not come back. The first line of the note is effectively the title.My notes are arranging themselves in an inverted manner (Romans 1:32 - 1:1). Logos is assuming that the most recently submitted thing belongs on top. It doesn't, it belongs on bottom. This is highly frustrating.
You can change the sort order. The options are date created, date modified, notebook, reference, or resource.Anchors on Logos 7 could be entered using the "Enter" key. Logos 8 requires you perform a mouse click. Please fix this.
I don't recall that being the case, but I haven't used the old notes system in almost 2 years. For what it is worth the new notes system was available in Logos 7 as well. It's not unique to Logos 8. Granted, in L7 it was a beta feature.Just because I attach an anchor to Romans 1:1 ESV/NASB and desire to add 2-3 sentences of highlight from a commentary to that anchor does not mean I want 4 pages of commentary highlighted across every open Romans commentary. This is extremely frustrating. Please fix.
You would need to anchor selected text in that case and not the reference milestone. This is appropriate and necessary behavior in my opinion.It sounds like most of your frustration comes from not knowing how the new notes tool works. Have you gone through the training articles? https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360017978372
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My notes are arranging themselves in an inverted manner (Romans 1:32 - 1:1). Logos is assuming that the most recently submitted thing belongs on top. It doesn't, it belongs on bottom. This is highly frustrating.
You can change the sort order. The options are date created, date modified, notebook, reference, or resource.
Being able to change the sort order does require specific facets to be selected in the Notes Tool.
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My notes are arranging themselves in an inverted manner (Romans 1:32 - 1:1). Logos is assuming that the most recently submitted thing belongs on top. It doesn't, it belongs on bottom. This is highly frustrating.
You can change the sort order. The options are date created, date modified, notebook, reference, or resource.
Being able to change the sort order does require specific facets to be selected in the Notes Tool.
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Good point Graham.My notes are arranging themselves in an inverted manner (Romans 1:32 - 1:1). Logos is assuming that the most recently submitted thing belongs on top. It doesn't, it belongs on bottom. This is highly frustrating.
You can change the sort order. The options are date created, date modified, notebook, reference, or resource.
Being able to change the sort order does require specific facets to be selected in the Notes Tool.
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Logos 7 users want to LIVE in expanded view.
Just for fairness, you want this, not all past Logos 7 users want this. I actually do not want that, I personally like the new system.In all fairness David, I'm glad you like Logos 8. I truly am happy for you. But my post is not addressed to you. It's addressed to the software developers. I'm attempting to propose solutions to very real problems experienced by many more people than myself. If I want to live inside the expanded version of notes, what is that to you? Should not unhappy Logos 7 users be provided some sort of remedy to their situation? Why do you attempt to extinguish my dialogue with Logos with such a comment? People are using Microsoft Word instead of Logos Notes. By definition, Logos failed in their execution of Notes 8. What I'm asking Logos to provide as an option that would not affect your use of Logos. I just want to be able to see my thoughts like on the old system. I understand you are trying to help and I appreciate that but I don't appreciate you trying to extinguish the ember I'm attempting to fan into flame Logos software developers. This is a serious problem and Logos needs to provide some sort solution to it which is why I'm suggesting what I'm suggesting as a way to end this madness. I would appreciate it if you would cease fire with comments like this, however well meaning.
Anchors on Logos 7 could be entered using the "Enter" key. Logos 8 requires you perform a mouse click. Please fix this.
I don't recall that being the case, but I haven't used the old notes system in almost 2 years.I assure you it was all I ever knew until a week ago.
Just because I attach an anchor to Romans 1:1 ESV/NASB and desire to add 2-3 sentences of highlight from a commentary to that anchor does not mean I want 4 pages of commentary highlighted across every open Romans commentary. This is extremely frustrating. Please fix. You would need to anchor selected text in that case and not the reference milestone. This is appropriate and necessary behavior in my opinion.
Your earlier comments regarding "milestone" didn't register. This one did. Thank you. My confusion lies in that my right click menu is extremely confusing. I hate it. I miss my old right click menu.
It sounds like most of your frustration comes from not knowing how the new notes tool works. Have you gone through the training articles? https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360017978372
On this we are 100% agreed. Perhaps much of the blowback Logos is experiencing lies in the fact that by their own admission the overhaul to Notes is the biggest change to Logos 8 and yet Logos 8 Quickstart doesn't even deal with Notes at all. It's devoted almost entirely to home page cards for beginners. So by your own admission the biggest change in Logos 8 is Notes and you decided to role out Logos 8 without a single video in Quickstart regarding that change? Good job. Yes I've read your article, yes I've watched the videos with the British guy. No, I do not find them helpful in my attempt to learn to navigate and successfully use Notes. The fact that they got a British guy to make outside videos tells me the rollout was premature and they anticipated many changes to Notes tutorials which is why they are not included in Quickstart by Morris Proctor. Believe me I'm trying to learn notes as fast as I can. But so far no video or article I've read eliminate any of the fog and confusion I have in using this catastrophe.
Please review my comments in my post above. Phil I await your call.
Respectfully,
Nathan
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My notes are arranging themselves in an inverted manner (Romans 1:32 - 1:1). Logos is assuming that the most recently submitted thing belongs on top. It doesn't, it belongs on bottom. This is highly frustrating.
You can change the sort order. The options are date created, date modified, notebook, reference, or resource.
Being able to change the sort order does require specific facets to be selected in the Notes Tool.
Notes are sorting themselves from Z-A. I would like the reverse of that. That does not appear to be an option. No matter which option I choose, "Date Modified" "Date Created" "Notebook" etc. nothing really happens. I don't understand how "select specific facets" in Notes tool to remedy this situation.
Nathan
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Notes are sorting themselves from Z-A. I would like the reverse of that. That does not appear to be an option. No matter which option I choose
Sorry I misunderstood.
I don't believe there is a mechanism to change the sort order - just the ability to select different sort options.
I don't understand how "select specific facets" in Notes tool to remedy this situation.
It doesn't address your requirement (as I now understand it). But the ability to sort by Reference - for example - requires a Reference (such as Bible) to be selected in the sidebar at the left of the Notes Tool
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FWIW: Count me as one who finds Logos 8 notes far superior to Logos 7 notes. And also, I think the right click context menu is outstanding.
A few years ago Faithlife did send out a survey asking Logos users regarding their experience with notes and how they could be improved upon. I did send in my frustrations and suggestions. Logos 8 notes is Faithlife's attempt to improve the notes system and in my opinion it is an improvement. I didn't use Logos 7 notes but I am now using Logos 8 notes.
However, I do believe the notes are in need of further improvement as they still are clunkish and complex. I still prefer the UI with MS OneNote to Logos 8 notes (see picture)... but Logos 8 is getting closer. And the great advantage is having my notes appear in Logos basic searches.
My suggestions:
- Notes interface could be cleaned up. It is too busy at the top.
- A collapsible tool bar and menu bar would be nice.
- Formatting of text is not quite there yet especially when pasting text, sometimes results are unexpected.
- Make it easier to turn on and off notes in Bibles and other resources. Digging down through the visual filter menu to uncheck notes is tedious.
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I have stopped using Notes altogether. Until they figure out what they want and get stable, and then fix the little issues everyone complains about, I'm not even going to try to learn it. I spent hours on the tool (since L3) trying to make it work and keep up with the changes, and all that work keeps being wasted. It isn't worth the time investment. It may very well be a better tool than it ever was, but right now it is an unstable tool (because of changes).
As far as I'm concerned, until this thing stabilizes, Logos is a bible software program without a notes tool.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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