Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive - I think I want a refund
I am preaching through 2nd Timothy, so as a resource I read through the Driscoll sermons on 2nd Tim - they are aweful. "All about me me me, my life is hard, I am so important, but here are 3 points you can get from this passage" would be my summary of his sermons I've read. He says he is going through a rough patch, but.....
Maybe 2nd Timothy is his worst and they get A LOT better - if that is your experience tell me where to read - I'd be glad to change my mind and not ask for the refund - but I don't have much time, so please let me know.
Comments
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i would be interesting in hearing more feedback before i consider ordering this product. thanks Michael.
River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org
Visit my blog: http://LifeOverflowing.org/pastor0 -
I decided I didn't want to hear (much less buy) a Mark Driscoll sermon after reading the following article by Baptist Press: http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=30700
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I decided to purchase the Sermon Archive after reading his book, "vintage church." He seemed really good at practical application so I wanted to see how he used it in his sermons. Well his sermons are more like little talks and most of them are about him, you are right. The problem is, either they aren't tagged very well or he just doesn't preach from a text. I too am a bit disappointed in it. I wan't expecting to agree with him on a lot of things, knowing his background, but I was hoping to glean some insight from someone who is really reaching out to the younger generations.
I would not buy it again. If I could get a refund I probablly would. BTW, I am not a Driscoll hater, I think he plays an important role in reaching people for Christ that no one else would. Its just that his sermons are not all that helpful in dealing with different texts of scripture. Maybe it would be better to look at the topically rather than expositionally. Just my two cents.
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I have downloaded and watched a number of the videos of Mark, from the Mars Hill web site (and links on iTunes).
I have read the above press article, and understand a need for caution in some contexts. Yet I also think there are important messages the Chruch is too scared to touch. Its no easy thing to balance this kind of matter.
I'm not here speaking for or against Mark and anything he might have said. I'm just saying this is not an easy thing.
I think its great that Logos offers this resource for sale, to those that wish it. But its OK too, for those that don't want it. I considered it, but decided not to purchase it in the end. Partly due to other big spends in Logos already.
Logos has a wide range of products. There are some I wish was withdrawn from sale as I strongly disagree with their position on some matters. But there are other customers that would want different products withdrawn, that I value. Choice is good. And each needs to pass everything thru their own filters of standards, doctrine-position and so on.
I'm not sure if my comments here serve much use, except to call for balance, and caution about whatever anyone posts next please.
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Interesting. He hadn't come across my radar screen. I wonder if he used Logos approved word study techniques to come up with his interpretation of Song of Solomon.
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So, just wondering, but who here has listened to or read the Song of Solomon series Driscoll preached? I think its refreshing to hear a preacher preaching about what the Song
of Solomon really is about. None of that reinterpreting of it because
the real meaning makes us blush too much.I'm a fan of Driscoll and his preaching because many times he's willing to talk about things that many pastors simply don't, can't, or won't talk about. The only thing I didn't like about the Logos version of his sermons was that they were directly transcribed without much editing for flow. The audience's reactions were even included, which I didn't care for.
It'd be nice if these few problems were fixed. That and I wonder when and if the sermons will ever be updated with new ones, like they did with John Piper's?
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I got the Driscoll sermons, as I am always looking for good ideas. The first thing that jumped out at me is his language is sometimes a little too guttteral/informal for my taste, even to making jokes about bodily functions. Not what I am used to hearing from the pulpit.
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I did not mean to bash on Driscoll, I actually have listened to and gotten something out of some of his podcasts, I don't really care if you like him or not, it's not what I asked. (Following line is edited, the original was a little harsh) In my original question, I tried to word it to ask specifically about the resource to avoid a bash on Mark Driscoll thread - I'd like to keep it that way.
But the sermons I have read have been horrible - I was hoping that he was just off his game for that time and was looking for input on the rest of the resource - is it worth keeping?
I know that I have had some horrible sermons in my day - many more than I would like to admit - so this is not criticism just to pile on Driscoll - it's just my observation (read the first 2 sermons in the 2nd Tim series).
Still would like some input from those who have and have used the resource, are others reading and getting some value out of them? Or is it time to ask for a refund?
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Michael,
I haven't listened to or read fully the sermons you're referring to, so whether my quick assessment can help, I don't know. I did read briefly through the first sermon in the 2 Timothy series.
I think Driscoll was talking about the things you brought up because 2 Timothy is about pastors, and with him being a pastor in the same vein as Paul (church planter), he's in a good position to expand on the context of 2 Timothy. It looks like he explains what being a pastor is about to help his audience connect to Paul and Timothy's situation. He may have gone into how hard his own life as a pastor is so his audience can try and understand, in whatever small way, what it may have been like for Paul to be doing what he did despite being in jail. Why does he spend so much time explaining what a pastor does in his
sermon? Probably because most people in his church simply don't know
because this is the first church they've ever been a part of. That's what you get when you plant a church in the least churched city in America and have it grow to 7,000 members.Driscoll's sermons tend to follow a set pattern. He usually goes through whole books of the Bible and unpacks the meaning and applications of whatever section he is preaching on for that week, but he does so in a way geared towards the needs of unchurched baby Christians.
One very important thing to keep in mind is that Driscoll is not a scholarly minded preacher. His sermons are already distilled for the common man to understand and benefit from. As I said, most of the people in Driscoll's church are first generation Christians, so this is why he takes a "bottom line" approach to his preaching. So I'm not sure what you may be looking for in Driscoll's sermons, but if you want to use them as an aid to your own preaching, just remember they are already about as basic as you can get. Perhaps instead of looking for great insights into the scriptures, maybe look at how he communicates the truths of scripture to his audience. He seems to do that part very well, judging by the tremendous growth of his church even before he became famous.
I personally enjoy Driscoll because of his clarity in communicating the meaning of scripture, the freshness and frankness of his ideas, and his ability to talk to the common man and identify with him. I've also been impressed by the depth of his knowledge and understanding on whatever issue or subject he is talking about. Whether it be scripture itself, different theological positions, issues of church history, or current perspectives on whatever topic, he's a man who has done his homework, and it shows in his preaching. This might be why he's such a good communicator too; he has a lot to draw from to connect with his audience. My mind is engaged when I listen to him, and that's exciting to me. Being in my late 20's, I'm also his target audience.
I'd say listen to Driscoll preach rather than just read the transcripts. There is a difference in the experience, I think, and that may effect how one looks at him. His "Religion Saves" series was what got me hooked, and since its on so many topics it might be a good way for you to gauge Driscoll's content and preaching style better.
Frankly, he's gonna be different than what most people are used to because his audience is different. If you're up for that, great. If not, I'm sure you can find someone to buy the sermons off you for the original pre-pub price.
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Michael Birney said:
But the sermons I have read have been horrible - I was hoping that he was just off his game for that time and was looking for input on the rest of the resource - is it worth keeping?
Hi Michael,
I should preface this by saying that I hold Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church in high regard. I regularly listen to the podcasts and own all of his books. I think that the Resurgence, in particular, is a great gift to the church. I also greatly value Logos and appreciate this may be a third-party resource.
In terms of this resource, I have read a fair selection and I the quality in terms of content is what I expected. I do suspect that the quality of the sermons may improve as you reach the series on 1 Corinthians. I do not think this is a controversial observation as I am sure I have heard Mark Driscoll say as much. (It also makes sense that experience will bring a greater degree of refinement.)
The positive with this resources is that you get a huge amount of content. There are around 150 sermons here, including special one off conference messages.
The weakness, in my opinion, is the formatting. The resource is in effect a transcript of the sermon as delivered. If Mark stutters, the transcript reflects this (with 'er...' and 'huh', I am really excited that there may be either a 'kerrrrppppppooooow' or 'keeeerrrrrruuuunnnnnch' in there somewhere). Where the congregations laughs, this is signalled in the transcript with, '(laughter)'.
This convention works in as much as it communicates the tone of Mark Driscoll's preaching (which is lively, funny (at least I think so) and informal). The problem, however, is that it is (in my view) difficult to read and difficult to follow along with the passage. Each sermon is pretty much a continuous chunk of prose with no divisions or subheading. Oftentimes it is difficult to see which passage of Scripture he is referencing. This is a world apart from the tight formatting style of, say, the John Piper Sermon Collection.
More disappointing are the incomplete transcriptions, for example,
And the word there is [inaudible] in Hebrew. Not gonna claim to be a great Hebrew scholar, but this is what it said. Now, these words are very important because [inaudible] means to create from nothing. It’s the original creation. And then [inaudible] is to create in terms of preparing for human life. The point here is that God made everything, and then he prepared it for human life.
Mark Driscoll, Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive 2005-2009 (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009).
This, in my opinion, is rather shoddy... I suspect the [inaudible] word is significant... I understood from the promo video that Mark Driscoll was involved in preparing the resource and I would have expected stuff like this to be fixed.
The resource also is also lacking in terms of references. One of the things that impresses me about Mark Driscoll is the way in which he uses secondary sources. Perhaps my expectations were unrealistic on this latter point, but I had hoped these references would be properly footnoted.
I am aware that I could exercise my consumer right and ask for a refund, only I do want the Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive in my library. I just wish it was more expertly executed. Oh, and a whole lot prettier...
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Bill Gordon said:
I decided I didn't want to hear (much less buy) a Mark Driscoll sermon after reading the following article by Baptist Press: http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=30700
Thank you for the reference to the review article.
"Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things."
In my opinion, I do not believe Driscoll's take on SofS is true, honorable, right, pure, lovely, of good repute, contains any excellence, or anything worthy of praise.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Bill Gordon said:
I decided I didn't want to hear (much less buy) a Mark Driscoll sermon after reading the following article by Baptist Press: http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=30700
Thanks for the link to the article on Driscoll. I can't believe what I have just read! It is best if I make no further comment, there is really nothing more to say.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Ted Hans said:Bill Gordon said:
I decided I didn't want to hear (much less buy) a Mark Driscoll sermon after reading the following article by Baptist Press: http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=30700
Thanks for the link to the article on Driscoll. I can't believe what I have just read! It is best if I make no further comment, there is really nothing more to say.
Ted
Thanks Bill, I had not read that one, but had read several other items that made me question if his approach. Personally I don't think the language, crude descriptions, or fleshly stories are appropriate coming from any pulpit. I don't believe it glorifies the Father at all. Not particularly towards Mr. Driscoll, although I did write to Bible Study Magazine when he was featured, is my concern over the Emergent and Emerging Church movements.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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While you can get a refund from Logos, just make sure that you do your research on him first. As much as Driscoll hangs out with Piper and Carson, he is not really your typical expository preacher. He does not do in-depth exegetical and theological analysis from the pulpit like a MacArthur will. The Peasant Princess messages were his most racy sermon series, and I don't think that he will ever do something quite as rated R again. Not that he shouldn't talk about sex in very frank terms (Driscoll's location in Seattle demands it), but he did go over the edge at times. Mark has certainly matured lately and in spite of his weaknesses, I am very glad he is on the side of the angels.
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Bill Gordon said:
I decided I didn't want to hear (much less buy) a Mark Driscoll sermon after reading the following article by Baptist Press: http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=30700
Ditto.
I've found his preaching to be shallow and too vulgar for me.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:Bill Gordon said:
I decided I didn't want to hear (much less buy) a Mark Driscoll sermon after reading the following article by Baptist Press: http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=30700
Ditto.
I've found his preaching to be shallow and too vulgar for me.
I would have to agree. While I believe he is very close to the meaning of the text, I also believe that the graphic description of marital relations are better kept in a private counseling session, not in the pulpit.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Another thread says it well - "Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person. (Col 4:6)". http://community.logos.com/forums/t/18853.aspx
I know I used the words horrible or awful about Driscoll's sermons, but not about him. Let's just end this thread before it gets ugly - and we say some more less than gracious things about people.
For those of you who tried to actually give some insight into Driscoll's sermons, thank you.
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J. Morris said:
Nah. That article is not fair and balanced. "Driscoll is a five-point Calvinist whose often-disheveled appearance..." You lose credibility when you say stuff like that.
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The "Pharisee vs tax collector" attitude on this forum is depressing.
Have you not forgotten when Paul used "σκύβαλα" to describe his works in relation to Christ? Would any of you have the guts to describe your works by calling them "$h1T" like Paul did? Would any of you have the guts to preach with such a word, even though an inspired apostle of God included it in the inspired Word of God?
Or do you also forget when Paul wished that those pesky Judaizers would castrate themselves and finish the job their circumcision started?
Or when you preach from Ezekiel, do you gloss over the part where God chides the Israelites for lusting after foreigners because they have huge penises and ejaculate like a horse?
And this says nothing about the graphic imagery that really is in Song of Solomon.
So next time you throw stones at Driscoll, or anyone else, don't forget what's in your own Bibles.
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Greg Masone said:
The "Pharisee vs tax collector" attitude on this forum is depressing.
Have you not forgotten when Paul used "σκύβαλα" to describe his works in relation to Christ? Would any of you have the guts to describe your works by calling them "$h1T" like Paul did? Would any of you have the guts to preach with such a word, even though an inspired apostle of God included it in the inspired Word of God?
Or do you also forget when Paul wished that those pesky Judaizers would castrate themselves and finish the job their circumcision started?
Or when you preach from Ezekiel, do you gloss over the part where God chides the Israelites for lusting after foreigners because they have huge penises and ejaculate like a horse?
And this says nothing about the graphic imagery that really is in Song of Solomon.
So next time you throw stones at Driscoll, or anyone else, don't forget what's in your own Bibles.
Speaking of skubalon, this is an good take. http://bible.org/article/toward-evangelical-theology-cussing. The article also points out that when we use words, it doesn't just matter what we say, but how we say it and what we are intending. I don't think there is anything wrong with the actual words Driscoll used, but what is he doing with them? Paul wasn't flippant; Driscoll was.
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Robert Pavich said:
Ditto.
I've found his preaching to be shallow and too vulgar for me.
Yep. Too vulgar for me as well. Exhibit A --> *Caution: Explicit Content* https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dg4fc37g_6fjdd38c8&hl=en
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Jeremy said:
Not that he shouldn't talk about sex in very frank terms (Driscoll's location in Seattle demands it)
Do you know something about Seattle that I don't?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Relevant article on Pastors and contemporary culture: Grunge Christianity and Cussing Pastors? What Next?
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Greg Masone said:
The "Pharisee vs tax collector" attitude on this forum is depressing.
I figure if Isaiah had unclean lips, surely Driscoll can get away with it until the hot coals arrive .Isaiah 6:5 [:#]
I would not start blaming the Logos forum for the reaction Driscoll gets. Logos even advertised this resource as controversial. It is my understanding many in Driscoll's own doctrinal camp are casting stones too, something about preachers having a higher calling than the tax collectors....I almost bought this resource. There were entirely too many great resources coming out that I can't justify one I would marginally use.
Give me Paul Tillich or Karl Barth. There's enough controvesy there without offending my godly mother.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Yes, Bill, I don't like everything he does, but I donot like everything anybody does. That is why we exercise discernment. I could say the same about Vernon, Macarthur, Ironside, etc.
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Paul Golder said:
Relevant article on Pastors and contemporary culture: Grunge Christianity and Cussing Pastors? What Next?
Having raised kids in Seattle in the "grunge era" I object to MacArthur's implied characterization of grunge. From Seattle Grunge Culture on Facebook:
... grunge is generally characterized by heavily distorted electric guitars,
contrasting song dynamics, and apathetic or angst-filled lyrics. The
grunge aesthetic is stripped-down compared to other forms of rock music,
and many grunge musicians were noted for their unkempt appearances and
rejection of theatrics...How Driscoll relates to apathy, angst, and minimalism, the core of the subculture, escapes me. Now I don't usually use Facebook as a source but in this case it says well what matches my experience.
As a grunge fan (my son the MD) said: (1) grunge lyrics are rarely intelligible (2) if found in written form, they are rarely comprehendible and (3) they rarely refer to anything explicitly.
To keep this thread Logos based, not theologically based, shall I suggest resources for Logos on Christianity and European Industrial Rock?[H]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Aaron Sauer said:
Yep. Too vulgar for me as well. Exhibit A --> *Caution: Explicit Content* https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dg4fc37g_6fjdd38c8&hl=en
Now this is ridiculous! I agree vulgar for me as well.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Matthew C Jones said:
I would not start blaming the Logos forum for the reaction Driscoll gets.
Matthew,
I noticed that too after I had posted, but didn't have the time to change it. My post was directed at this particular thread in the forum and not all of Logos' forums as a whole.
I think we get very comfortable with the cultural Christianity that we have grown up in, so it becomes very easy for us to judge things in relation to what is considered "tasteful" within our subculture. Our subculture then becomes the absolute standard by which we judge things by.
I think this is why Driscoll and his Logos sermons tend to get so much flack. Most of us simply haven't been charged with the task of starting a church in the least churched city in America. Driscoll may have to use things that offend our cultural Christianity in order to reach people whose only perception of the faith comes from the more uptight and judgmental ones among us. To the Jew be as a Jew, to a gentile be as a gentile, etc...
Its kind of like this: Imagine you have a bar full of non-Christians living it up and having a fun time. Outside are two Christians, one whose tradition forbids alcohol use and even the appearance of using it, and the other whose tradition doesn't. So while the former stands outside a safe distance away and condemns and preaches to those heathens inside, the other Christian goes in and shares a beer with the group and successfully shares the Gospel with them.
Driscoll was given the charge by God to reach the people of Seattle because, being the least churched city in America, obviously no one else was. I think it would be good for Driscoll's offended critics to remember this. Driscoll isn't a heretic, nor is he some evil emergent monster. He's just a man called by God to reach the counter-culture by being counter-cultural.
Just because its a particular Christian subculture he's rubbing wrong doesn't make any difference and it doesn't make him wrong.
That's my thoughts at least. I get annoyed when I see so much stone-casting going on and no effort is made to understand the reasons behind such actions.
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Aaron Sauer said:
*Caution: Explicit Content* https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dg4fc37g_6fjdd38c8&hl=en
Well, its in the Bible. And as long as the audience is age appropriate, what's the problem?
Should we be selectively preaching only the parts of scripture that don't offend our cultural sensitivities?
Or is Jesus Christ really just comparing my breasts to leaping gazelles?
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Greg Masone said:
I think this is why Driscoll and his Logos sermons tend to get so much flack. Most of us simply haven't been charged with the task of starting a church in the least churched city in America. Driscoll may have to use things that offend our cultural Christianity in order to reach people whose only perception of the faith comes from the more uptight and judgmental ones among us. To the Jew be as a Jew, to a gentile be as a gentile, etc...
Its kind of like this: Imagine you have a bar full of non-Christians living it up and having a fun time. Outside are two Christians, one whose tradition forbids alcohol use and even the appearance of using it, and the other whose tradition doesn't. So while the former stands outside a safe distance away and condemns and preaches to those heathens inside, the other Christian goes in and shares a beer with the group and successfully shares the Gospel with them.
Greg,
Isn't this an argument from pragmatism?
What works = what is correct before God?
What if it would reach more people in the bar by showing that you're a "regular guy" and get hammered like everyone else?
Would that be appropriate?
Just asking brother...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
Isn't this an argument from pragmatism?
What works = what is correct before God?
What if it would reach more people in the bar by showing that you're a "regular guy" and get hammered like everyone else?
Would that be appropriate?
Nail head, meet Bob's hammer... [Y]
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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MJ. Smith said:
Having raised kids in Seattle in the "grunge era" I object to MacArthur's implied characterization of grunge. From Seattle Grunge Culture on Facebook:
It seems, to me, that he was speaking in relation to the meaning of the term from which the subculture, associated with that movement, derived it's name:
Grunge - dirt: the state of being covered with unclean things
MJ. Smith said:shall I suggest resources for Logos on Christianity and European Industrial Rock?
Now that's funny [:)]
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Greg Masone said:
I think we get very comfortable with the cultural Christianity that we have grown up in, so it becomes very easy for us to judge things in relation to what is considered "tasteful" within our subculture. Our subculture then becomes the absolute standard by which we judge things by.
I grew up in Japan, raised by my missionary parents. In Japan you see advertisements for movies at most bus stops and on many giant billboards. The only problem is they are pornographic in nature. We might expect a pagan culture to be like that. In reality Americanized "Christian" culture is much more vulgar than Japan's paganism. The things Mark Driscoll says in his pulpit are illegal to display in a pornographic movie in an adult-only theater in Japan.
I can understand your frustration with the judgemental attitudes of divergent modern Christianity. It is a double-standard when mainstream churches loosen Biblical standards to appease "itching ears" but condemn Driscoll for doing the same. Imagine how many more Driscoll could reach for Christ if he would accept same sex marriage like the big denominations. [6]
NOTICE: The preceding statement was not a recommendation but the logical consequence of following this line of thinking. The more we blur the lines of demarcation, the easier to "win" people to Christ. Whatever happened to the "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you" directive? 2 Cor. 6:17Greg Masone said:Just because its a particular Christian subculture he's rubbing wrong doesn't make any difference and it doesn't make him wrong.
(With no disrespect to George Barna, The Church Growth Institute, or Leadership Magazine from Christianity Today) Just because a preacher fills a building with a fan club does not make the preacher doctrinally correct or make the fan club saved. Matthew 7:22-23
P.S. - My father, and most other missionaries I have met, have planted churches all over the world. I have never heard any of them change the message or lower the standards to coax conversion. And most of these churches were in pagan, hostile and unchurched societies.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Robert Pavich said:
Isn't this an argument from pragmatism?
What works = what is correct before God?
I agree that pragmatism or "lowest common denominator-ism" is a poor model for the preaching of the Word even though it has been the watchword of the Church Growth movement for years. As someone once said, the Great Commission should be renamed the Great Marketing Plan. I personally find the entire concept theologically repulsive.
Nevertheless, these men and women have the freedom to minister as they feel led. But it comes with a warning (as it does for all), "... let each man be careful how he builds ... For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work."
Thus, Driscoll and others should minister as they see fit and not as I think they should. Perhaps they do well in meeting the "demands of Seattle". Perhaps not.
For my part, I will exercise my own discernment as I feel led.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Greg Masone said:
And as long as the audience is age appropriate, what's the problem?
Are we going to card everybody at the door now?
Driscoll's sermons are on YuToob. Millions of kids go there.
In Oklahoma an adult could be charged with various crimes for talking with a minor like Driscoll talks in church.
I have always been gung-ho for having new & differing resources in Logos. I am not against Driscoll's material, or even SDA commentaries being available in Logos. But I certainly support the original poster expressing his opinions. I think people should be provided the choice. Let them buy it if they like it or pass if they don't. And forum posts are like the reviews on Am@zon with one exception; Logos might actually improve a resource based on comments posted. (Things like better tagging, increased content, revising the format to make it more useful.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Without judging anyone on this thread, let me remind us all that these forums are here to help us use the software better. Inquiries as to the value of certain resources one is considering for purchase (or considering returning) are also valid.
Taking on the strategy of someone published by Logos, or language of material not in Logos is outside the purview of these forums.
I can't say I like all I read about Driscoll, I don't have his stuff, I've read one of his books (didn't really like it), and don't plan to buy anything by him. But that's no reason to flame on, or repeat the same objections with what sometimes appears to be a kind of salacious delight. That is unseemly for Christians as well. Offense, perhaps (probably), should be taken. But the response to that offense would be more productive, if it incited us to pray for the brother, rather than burn him in the flames of forum posts.
I posted on my facebook status this week this quote, and it seems to apply here as well: "It's good to hate sin. It's not good to hate your brother's sin more than your own."
Don't like Driscoll's stuff? Don't buy it, return it, etc. Don't like Driscoll? Pray for him.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
Without judging anyone on this thread, let me remind us all that these forums are here to help us use the software better. Inquiries as to the value of certain resources one is considering for purchase (or considering returning) are also valid.
Taking on the strategy of someone published by Logos, or language of material not in Logos is outside the purview of these forums.
I can't say I like all I read about Driscoll, I don't have his stuff, I've read one of his books (didn't really like it), and don't plan to buy anything by him. But that's no reason to flame on, or repeat the same objections with what sometimes appears to be a kind of salacious delight. That is unseemly for Christians as well. Offense, perhaps (probably), should be taken. But the response to that offense would be more productive, if it incited us to pray for the brother, rather than burn him in the flames of forum posts.
I posted on my facebook status this week this quote, and it seems to apply here as well: "It's good to hate sin. It's not good to hate your brother's sin more than your own."
Don't like Driscoll's stuff? Don't buy it, return it, etc. Don't like Driscoll? Pray for him.
I really do not intend the following to be critical, but I feel that I do need to comment as I posted on the first page. I understood that the OP was asking for comments on the Logos resource, The Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive. I attempted to respond in a focused and reasonable manner and, in so doing, believe I was acting within the forum guidelines.
I have to be honest, but it seems to me that much of this strand runs (at the very least) against the spirit of the forum guidelines. I thought the issue around theological discussions was a recognition that many people from different backgrounds use Logos software and that Logos wanted to avoid controversy and division on its own pages. If this is indeed the intent, surely it is not acceptable to publically criticise a fellow pastor/Christian because we do not agree with his views/methods.
How is this better than a strand debating eschatology or creationism? To put it another way, would it be acceptable for me to start a strand around the Calvin resource and then use this to criticise Calvin's views on, say, paedobaptism or some of the more problematic events in Geneva?
Or what about practically any other flawed, imperfect theologian represented among Logos' many resources?
I have an issue with the posting of the link to the article critiquing Driscoll on the previous page. Is this consistent with the forum guidelines? Would it be acceptable for Logos users to use this space to critique the article? In my opinion the article is grossly unfair, but surely this is not the place for me to expand on this in detail. That places myself (as someone who has found the ministry of Mars Hill to be, in all honesty, transformational) at a disadvantage. It places Mark Driscoll, his family and those who attend Mars Hill at a similar disadvantage.
My primary concern is this: Mark Driscoll is a strong advocate for Logos. I first heard about Logos via the ministry of Mars Hill Church. I have been a Christian now for well over a decade and am discouraged and narked by what I have read here. Imagine if a new Christian from Mars Hill, on Pastor Mark's recommendation, purchased Logos, visited the forum and read this strand? I know people may kick me for being over-sensitive or melodramatic, but it bothers me.
It bothers me that my name and picture appears on the first page of this strand.
I appreciate that his style will not be everyone's cup of tea. In honesty, I am not surprised that he offends some people. My advice is this (for what it is worth) if Mark Driscoll's methods/theology bother you: don't buy the resource, it is not for you.
I am sorry for posting in this way, but I do so for selfish reasons. I posted on the first page and am now embarrassed that I did so, particularly given the shape of the subsequent exchanges.
I apologise to Mark Driscoll, his family and the folks at Mars Hill Church for my part in this.
I will restrain myself from thus commenting here in the future.
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Paul Golder said:
Grunge - dirt: the state of being covered with unclean things
Ouch - my farming family was grungy all the time ,,, it's spread from Seattle to the entire agricultural subculture [:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
The only problem is they are pornographic in nature. We might expect a pagan culture to be like that.
I assume you mean "pagan" in the sense of a non-believer in one (or more?) of the Abrahamic religions. I would not expect the ethics in Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, or Zoroastrian regions to be any laxer than in Christian cultures. As for cultural adaptation, one might look to the Church of the East and the Orthodox in Asia and Africa after the Arab conquest. A little church history often puts things in a different perspective.
However, this does not imply that I think Driscoll is applying "cultural adaptation." In fact, I find MacArthur's Seattle grunge theory humorous and know of Driscoll only second hand.
But I do think that this thread has gotten so far off Logos that it probably should be left to wither away.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Richard DeRuiter said:
Taking on the strategy of someone published by Logos, or language of material not in Logos is outside the purview of these forums.
Yes. Well said.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Andy Evans said:
I know people may kick me for being over-sensitive or melodramatic, but it bothers me.
It should bother you. It constantly surprises me how quickly the golden rule becomes rusty iron when it comes to beliefs, especially religious or political. I love the message of the Country & Western song with the message "you may be the only Bible they ever read".
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Jeremy said:
Not that he shouldn't talk about sex in very frank terms (Driscoll's location in Seattle demands it)
Do you know something about Seattle that I don't?
Seattle is one of the most unchurched cities in the US. Mars Hill is made up of a bunch of converts who know nothing about biblical sexuality and everything about unbiblical sexuality. His members are young and don't mind a pastor being blunt.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
Inquiries as to the value of certain resources one is considering for purchase (or considering returning) are also valid.
I think the value of certain resources is determined by having the exact conversation this thread is engaged in. Since the discussion revolves around Driscoll's method of preaching, I think the conversation in this thread is worthwhile. And Logos doesn't seem to be just a passive publisher of this series, but a strong endorser.
[i]Each
week, more than 8,000 people gather at Mars Hill Church in Seattle to
hear Mark Driscoll’s preaching. Driscoll is unafraid to talk about sin
or confront the most difficult cultural issues. Drawing from the rich
insights of Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Spurgeon, and others, he never hesitates
to explain the raw and confrontational truth of the Gospel. Driscoll’s
goal, in his own words, is to “study the Bible all week, pray to the
Lord, and then. . . speak from my heart” (Seattle Times,
November 30, 2003).
Driscoll’s passion for the Gospel and his deep honesty in explaining
its truths has placed him at the center of a resurging interest in
Reformed theology. It has also helped foster Mars Hill’s explosive
growth in recent years, and drawn the attention of supporters and
skeptics alike. With the Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive, you can
go deep into his sermons, or simply read the text. Either way, you get
access to an amazing wealth of preaching material.[/i]0 -
Jeremy said:
Seattle is one of the most unchurched cities in the US.
And proud of it[:D]
Of course I do belong to a Seattle parish that has had its attendance growing 5-17% a year for the last 6 years. We don't have parking space for people who come from habit not belief! [Factually accurate, but I'm kidding folks, just kidding]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jeremy said:
Seattle is one of the most unchurched cities in the US.
This was not always so. My mom was born and raised in Seattle, my sister was born there, and when I was little we lived in Lynwood and Alderwood Manor. My grandmother's house was a block from the neighborhood church and on Sunday's it was always packed.
I think the real issue is that the United States since 1963 has been turning its back on the Christian foundations (prayer in schools, teaching the bible) that made us prosper.
We, in general terms, have become a secular country on a slippery slope of moral decay. I do not personally care for Mark Driscoll's teaching style, nor do I know if it is efffective in biblical terms, but it isn't my call to judge Mark Driscoll. God did not call me to judge, only Christ is called to judge. So I will leave it up to Christ and pray that the Holy Spirit gives discernment to the listener to keep them on the correct path that the Father has set before them.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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Robert Pavich said:
Isn't this an argument from pragmatism?
What works = what is correct before God?
That's not what I said, and I don't think my analogy went that far. Our freedom in Christ allows for the use of pragmatic ways of reaching people in as much as we do not go outside the bounds of that freedom. Just because one's Christian cultural sensitivities are offended doesn't mean Driscoll, or anyone for that matter, is wrong in how they are reaching people. Just look to Jesus for this. Look at how much he associated himself with sinners, and look at how much the religious people were offended by that and resented him. I think Matthew 11:19 sums it all up very well: "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say,
‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and
sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."Robert Pavich said:What if it would reach more people in the bar by showing that you're a "regular guy" and get hammered like everyone else?
Would that be appropriate?
Sharing a beer does not mean you have to hammered. Our freedom in Christ allows for the beer, but not for the hammering, FYI. Jesus made great headway with the sinners by sharing a meal with them and giving them some wine. Far be it from us to act holier then Jesus, right?
Paul Golder said:Nail head, meet Bob's hammer...
I don't think so Paul. Our freedom in Christ allows for one and not the other. The danger of a slippery slope is only there if you have faulty brakes. A
man strong in the faith with full knowledge of his freedom in Christ is
not in that sort of danger.Jesus identified with the people he came to reach by getting down to their level. Why is that so hard to see? Saint Paul acted as if he was under the law to reach those under the law, and vice-versa for those not under the law. He adapted himself to his audience by making use of his freedom in Christ. Yet even still his critics gave him a hard time for doing that.
Matthew C. Jones,
I understand the push to follow the logical consequences of this sort of thinking, and I understand what you and the others have been getting at. But I think also our freedom in Christ has been overlooked in our assessment. Our freedom in Christ changes everything and allows us to adapt to our audience in the way that we feel comfortable and in as much as it does not obviously violate scripture. Homosexuality does. Drinking beer does not. Showing porn at church does, while preaching the Ancient Near Eastern imagery and interpretation of the Song of Solomon does not. In this line of thinking, what may be acceptable to older generation's ears may not be acceptable to a younger generations ears, and vice versa. This is not a difference of morals, but a differences of mores. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mores)
Romans 14 seems to touch on the mores of individual believers in Paul's churches, those who used their freedom in Christ to eat anything, and those who thought it wrong to do the same. Paul comes out and says that both are right as long as they follow their conscience on these matters and do not seek to cause another to stumble.
Driscoll has asssessed his pastorate to have a set of mores different than most churches, so I think he is using his freedom in Christ to preach in a manner that helps them first and foremost. That Driscoll's sermons are broadcast so widely changes things some, and he has accepted the counsel of people like John Piper on some of these matters, but shouldn't be something that effects how he preaches to those directly under his pastoral care. In fact, that's where our freedom in Christ allows us to refrain from listening to those sermons which offend our own mores.
It doesn't make him wrong though. That's the whole point I'm getting at.
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Kenneth Shawver said:
We, in general terms, have become a secular country on a slippery slope of moral decay. I do not personally care for Mark Driscoll's teaching style, nor do I know if it is efffective in biblical terms, but it isn't my call to judge Mark Driscoll. God did not call me to judge, only Christ is called to judge. So I will leave it up to Christ and pray that the Holy Spirit gives discernment to the listener to keep them on the correct path that the Father has set before them.
Just a one note of contention:
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1 Corthains 5:12."As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Greg Masone said:Paul Golder said:
Nail head, meet Bob's hammer...
I don't think so Paul. Our freedom in Christ allows for one and not the other. The danger of a slippery slope is only there if you have faulty brakes. A
man strong in the faith with full knowledge of his freedom in Christ is
not in that sort of danger.Jesus identified with the people he came to reach by getting down to their level. Why is that so hard to see? Saint Paul acted as if he was under the law to reach those under the law, and vice-versa for those not under the law. He adapted himself to his audience by making use of his freedom in Christ. Yet even still his critics gave him a hard time for doing that.
I understand your point, and just have one question:
Are we not called to exemplify purity of the Spirit when we preach the Gospel?
Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity. 1 Timothy 4:12
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Andy Evans said:
I am sorry for posting in this way, but I do so for selfish reasons. I posted on the first page and am now embarrassed that I did so, particularly given the shape of the subsequent exchanges.
I apologise to Mark Driscoll, his family and the folks at Mars Hill Church for my part in this.
Andy, Don't feel personally responsible for the posts of others. You never know which way a thread will go. We can avoid fanning the flames if it gets too wild just by withdrawing further coment. Mark Driscoll apparently has no qualms about thinking, preaching, publishing, advertising & selling his comments. So why should he be embarrassed people talk about them? After all, Bob Pritchett said Logos is a sermon preparation tool and sermons are prepared for public delivery. If the Bereans were honorable for close scrutiny of Paul's message, why would it be less honorable for us to do the same with Driscoll's?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Yikes...
