Apple Silicon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104780#Comment_1104780

Since I’m not too clear on how the new chips are going to work, I’m wondering if that’s a two-year warning to rewrite software from scratch for macOS Big Sur.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104782#Comment_1104782

There's a Rosetta update to run Intel-based software.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104786#Comment_1104786

I see. I guess I misunderstood the significance of that.

Tony Walker

I would love to have Logos on my iPad Pro. Unless there's something I can't think of, I don't know of any app really that I would need my iMac for if that happened. I can do nearly everything with my iOS devices... except Logos. The difference between the desktop and mobile is too great.

I hope to see some pencil integration this fall. Logos open on the left and Goodntoes on the right.

Dave Hooton

I sure hope this means we could get the full version of Logos on the iPad.

It works the other way - you can use your iOS and iPadOS apps on the Mac. Logos for Mac won't run on your iPad.

ReformedPilgrim

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104832#Comment_1104832

I sure hope this means we could get the full version of Logos on the iPad.

It works the other way - you can use your iOS and iPadOS apps on the Mac. Logos for Mac won't run on your iPad.

You're right, for the moment. But since the Mac will have the exact same processor as it does in the iPad (they did a demo of this) the same exact app will run on both devices.

Bring the full fledged Logos to the iPad with tight Pencil support and I can have my entire toolset wherever I go. PLEEEEASE Faithlife, make this happen.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104869#Comment_1104869

I wonder how well that would work. Maybe fine on a 12.9” Pro, but on a smaller screen, it seems like desktop Logos would be too cramped on a small screen, barring a revamped layout.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104832#Comment_1104832

I sure hope this means we could get the full version of Logos on the iPad.

It works the other way - you can use your iOS and iPadOS apps on the Mac. Logos for Mac won't run on your iPad.

I never even thought about doing that. Does Logos mobile run on Catalina?

Levi Durfey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104876#Comment_1104876

I never even thought about doing that. Does Logos mobile run on Catalina?

No...this will be possible on the next version of macOS (Big Sur) and only on Apple computers with ARM processors (not Intel).

The outstanding questions are when will Logos run natively on MacOS 11 (Big Sur) with Apple Silicon, and pending that, will the Logos code for Intel run without issue or a big performance hit on Apple Silicon using Rosetta 2.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104891#Comment_1104891

I held off updating my Mac Mini, so now buying another Mac will probably go on ice indefinitely. It's going to make getting a new Intel Mac a liability right out of the box.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104903#Comment_1104903

I held off updating my Mac Mini, so now buying another Mac will probably go on ice indefinitely. It's going to make getting a new Intel Mac a liability right out of the box.

Yep. I had planned to finish up on MS, and convert Logos to a Mac as its sole app. This is all good news, long range. Probably sit out L9 in addition to L8. Will be interesting to watch Logosian squealing in the meantime.

Back in Apple's early days, my Apple Ii had a 3 digit serial. But switching to the Amiga since the Mac was already dated, it'll be nice to get a better designed Mac. Coming home (I hope).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104780#Comment_1104780

I still have a couple of perfectly good macs that were left behind when they abandoned Apple Silicon the first time.

Apple's Press Release:

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/06/apple-announces-mac-transition-to-apple-silicon/

John Goodman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104891#Comment_1104891

The outstanding questions are when will Logos run natively on MacOS 11 (Big Sur) with Apple Silicon, and pending that, will the Logos code for Intel run without issue or a big performance hit on Apple Silicon using Rosetta 2.

Running in Rosetta 2 its unlikely there would be a big performance hit except possibly while indexing but even then it will work very fast. (Even if there is an overhead it is unlikely to max out the processor load).

Faithlife will be native very close to launch day. Faithlife tend not to comment much on pre-released systems but they always get there.

Rodrigo Quema

I just had a chat with one of the Logos Reps who made it clear that they don't plan on supporting Apple Pencil anytime in the future. I doubt if they would recompile their current MacOS app to work with Arm as well in that case.

Roy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104916#Comment_1104916

I still have a couple of perfectly good macs that were left behind when they abandoned Apple Silicon the first time.

Yea, me too.

I have a really nice G5 Quad maxed out at 16 gig. It still runs!

Now I have a Mac Pro 2010 that I can't update past Mojave.(without playing with the install. No thanks.)

As long as Logos supports WinTel I can always run in a VM on the Mac at least.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104933#Comment_1104933

There are a bunch of different issues here.

I just had a chat with one of the Logos Reps who made it clear that they don't plan on supporting Apple Pencil anytime in the future.

As you mentioned in another thread, the mobile app development is tied to Android as well. BIG special features which are device specific are much less likely to occur than ones which could be more easily be ported across devices and operating systems.

I doubt if they would recompile their current MacOS app to work with Arm as well in that case.

As for the Mac app: Apple's announcement this week that they will be moving to ARM based chips instead of Intel means that FL will have to do something at some point, or drop support for Mac altogether.

To begin with, Logos might need to run on Rosetta 2, but eventually it will probably move over to being compiled for ARM. (Note: this is for Mac only... not for windows).

I sure hope this means we could get the full version of Logos on the iPad.

But since the Mac will have the exact same processor as it does in the iPad (they did a demo of this) the same exact app will run on both devices.

Well, the "same processor" is not the same thing as the "same operating system" or the "same device." Many have talked and dreamed about this and it may finally happen... but probably not on the device you are using today... I certainly don't see FL optimizing the desktop version for any current iPad.

Steven New

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104952#Comment_1104952

Realistically the best we could hope for is Logos 9 would be built from the ground up for Apple Silicon, which would mean maybe better iOS support too.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104917#Comment_1104917

I don't know what languages, tools and libraries FaithLife used to create Logos on the Mac.

The best case would be that Logos was built in Objective C using Xcode and using mostly Apple frameworks. Then, it's simply a build option to chose the target platform.

The porting effort for Apple arm64 depends on how much they relied on hardware-specific features. If FaithLife relied mostly on Apple frameworks and technologies, their porting effort may be small.

If FaithLife tuned their code specifically for the Intel x86_64 architecture and hardware capabilities, porting to Apple arm64 may require additional effort. For example, if FaithLife interacts with the kernel, contains x86 assembly instructions, manages multiple threads or contains hardware-specific assumptions or performance optimizations, they may have a lot of work to do. Or, if they depend on many third-party libraries, they'll need to wait for those libraries to be converted to arm64 or switch to Apple frameworks.

FaithLife will need to build fat universal macOS binaries that contain both Intel x86-64 and Apple arm64 binaries, so Logos can be distributed in a way that will allow it to run on either an Intel-based Mac or an Apple Silicon Mac.

Until they do, in most cases the x86-64 binaries can run natively on the current Intel-based Macs, and translated by Rosetta 2 on the new Apple Silicon Macs starting to arrive by the end of the year. Of course, FaithLife will need to test Logos on both Intel-based and arm64-based Macs.

Eventually, FaithLife would drop support for Intel-based Macs.

Thomas Zimmermann

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104957#Comment_1104957

Realistically the best we could hope for is Logos 9 would be built from the ground up for Apple Silicon, which would mean maybe better iOS support too.

Somehow I doubt this is going to happen.

Logos on Windows and Logos on macOS are essentially the same application, making it easier to support and develop both. They are using the .NET framework from Microsoft.

In the first run, they will recompile the App, and all the code that is "native" x86-64 will be compiled into arm code, too. Most code however should be platform agnostic, anyway. So even those "fat" binaries (thats how they called them in transition times from PowerPC to x86 architechture) should not add too much weight.

That should be enough, I have seen complex software just recompiled with the new xcode toolset, and the resulting binaries working on macOS Big Sur.

If they would "dumb down" the macOS desktop App to have one consistent app shared between iPad, iOS and macOS, that would streamline their Apple device support, but might leave desktop users behind feature wise.

We'll see how it works out in the end. Interesting times.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1104981#Comment_1104981

I've read a bit more and apparently Apple isn't leaving Intel any time soon. It just makes a bit harder to determine if you should wait for an ARM machine based on your own usage if you need a new machine. My 2012 Mac Mini will still run Catalina and L8. Nearly eight years old is still amazing.

FL still has to support the existing user base and no one has ARM or Big Sur yet. So L9 still needs to be Intel compatible. Bob will probably need some more Mac coders and I am so glad this headache is not ours. Much ado is mostly not ours to do.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105001#Comment_1105001

After what Apple showed at WWDC, you’d be crazy to buy a new Mac right now

https://www.macworld.com/article/3563738/you-shouldnt-buy-a-new-mac-right-now.html

Tony Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105000#Comment_1105000

[quote]If they would "dumb down" the macOS desktop App to have one consistent app shared between iPad, iOS and macOS, that would streamline their Apple device support, but might leave desktop users behind feature wise.

I hope not. Logos on my desktop Mac is almost the only reason I still use my desktop.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105005#Comment_1105005

I hope not. Logos on my desktop Mac is almost the only reason I still use my desktop.

The mobile version of Logos cannot be used for serious study. I use the desktop version on my Mac. I am totally committed to Apple, since I own an iMac, MacBook, iPad Pro, iPhone, Apple Watch, Apple TV, and a half-dozen HomePods.

I have a lot of $ invested in Logos. I may stop purchasing additional resources until they announce they will be supporting Apple Silicon on the Mac.

Any Mac user thinking about buying Logos may wish to hold off as well. I wonder what Accordance is going to do?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105006#Comment_1105006

Nothing whatsoever indicates to me that anything one currently does in Logos 8 is somehow going to be shoved off the cliff in Big Sur or altered by an ARM processor beyond the likelihood of some genuinely appreciated welcome speed boosts. This will be wonderful.

Hold off on a new Mac and buy more Logos resources. This will soon pass as the nothing burger issue it really is.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105018#Comment_1105018

Nothing whatsoever indicates to me that anything one currently does in Logos 8 is somehow going to be shoved off the cliff in Big Sur or altered by an ARM processor beyond the likelihood of some genuinely appreciated welcome speed boosts. This will be wonderful.

Hold off on a new Mac and buy more Logos resources. This will soon pass as the nothing burger issue it really is.

Agreed. Barring some irreconcilable difference between ARM and the Logos program, we’ll see it eventually. The question is how many bumps in the road getting there.

It’s academic to me, since I jumped to PC. But if I still used Mac, I’d be worried

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105018#Comment_1105018

Nothing whatsoever indicates to me that anything one currently does in Logos 8 is somehow going to be shoved off the cliff in Big Sur or altered by an ARM processor beyond the likelihood of some genuinely appreciated welcome speed boosts. This will be wonderful.

Hold off on a new Mac and buy more Logos resources. This will soon pass as the nothing burger issue it really is.

Unless FaithLife commits to supporting MacOS 11 on Apple Silicon, someone who replaces his Intel X86-64 Mac with an Apple arm64 Mac may find that Logos won’t run on it. I’m just hoping that FaithLive developers are watching all the WWDC 2020 sessions on migrating your apps to Apple Silicon and that FaithLife starts working on migrating Logos to Apple Silicon.

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105036#Comment_1105036

I’m just hoping that FaithLive developers are watching all the WWDC 2020 sessions on migrating

As someone from "the other camp", Microsoft is also looking at ARM. They tried it with the Surface (not pro) and they are now trying it with the Surface Pro X. I do not envy the position that Software developers find themselves - writing for legacy (last weekend a post intimated that Logos ought to support 8 year old hardware - https://community.logos.com/forums/t/191502.aspx ) or the future. I'm not a coder, just a pastor, but I wonder if both major hardware companies looking away from Intel and toward their own ARM processors is going to shape the future of Bible Software, or be what MAB calls a "nothing burger"

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105039#Comment_1105039

I imagine that FL would want to make their product compatible with Apple and Windows and would certainly work to keep up with changing hardware

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105036#Comment_1105036

I’m just hoping that FaithLive developers are watching all the WWDC 2020 sessions on migrating your apps to Apple Silicon and that FaithLife starts working on migrating Logos to Apple Silicon.

Having purchased one of the first 100,000 Macs, I seem to have heard this the sky is falling doomsday forecast a time or two previously. Yes, things will change, but then, they always have changed.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105049#Comment_1105049

I’m just hoping that FaithLive developers are watching all the WWDC 2020 sessions on migrating your apps to Apple Silicon and that FaithLife starts working on migrating Logos to Apple Silicon.

Having purchased one of the first 100,000 Macs, I seem to have heard this the sky is falling doomsday forecast a time or two previously. Yes, things will change, but then, they always have changed.

I haven’t heard anyone speak about a sky is falling doomsday forecast. Just rational thoughts and questions regarding the Logos migration to Apple SoC’s.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105050#Comment_1105050

This might be an Apples (no pun intended) to Oranges comparison, but I thought this was interesting when it comes to ARM replacing intel. So, for whatever it’s worth:

https://www.laptopmag.com/news/macbooks-on-arm-wont-support-boot-camp-virtualization-is-needed-to-run-windows-10?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105006#Comment_1105006

The mobile version of Logos cannot be used for serious study. I use the desktop version on my Mac. I am totally committed to Apple, since I own an iMac, MacBook, iPad Pro, iPhone, Apple Watch, Apple TV, and a half-dozen HomePods.

I have a lot of $ invested in Logos. I may stop purchasing additional resources until they announce they will be supporting Apple Silicon on the Mac.

Currently Faithlife supports all Mac models that can run macOS 10.14 Mojave or newer (public release) => https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007506971-Logos-Minimum-System-Requirements Anticipating Faithlife to support macOS Big Sur on all Mac models available for public purchase, including Apple Silicon. Personal purchase pause is future replacement of a 2013 MacBook Air, which can run macOS Big Sur. Like idea of Apple Silicon laptop for running desktop (heavy) application and mobile (lite) apps, especially if Apple Silicon laptop includes touch screen.

Logos Wiki => Logos Release History includes first release with fix(es) for a new Apple Operating System: e.g. Logos & Verbum 8.8 was the first supported release for public macOS 10.15 Catalina. Logos & Verbum prior to 8.8 have crash issues on macOS 10.15 Catalina.

Eventually, FaithLife would drop support for Intel-based Macs.

Humanly anticipate Faithlife dropping support for Intel-based Macs a few years after Apple stops supporting older Intel-based Mac models for new Operating Systems. Noticed several 2013 Mac models can run 2020 macOS Big Sur release:

Keep Smiling [:)]

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105144#Comment_1105144

This might be an Apples (no pun intended) to Oranges comparison, but I thought this was interesting when it comes to ARM replacing intel. So, for whatever it’s worth:

Noted "As reported by The Verge, Microsoft only licenses Windows 10 on ARM to PC vendors making "Always-connected PCs" or those with Qualcomm processors."

Geekbench for Android => https://browser.geekbench.com/android-benchmarks currently shows the fastest Qualcomm Snapdragon has Single-Core 905 and Multi-Core 3318 benchmarks, which are slower than iOS => https://browser.geekbench.com/ios-benchmarks showing Apple's A13 Bionic (in iPhone 11) has Single-Core 1327 and Multi-Core 3390 (with Apple's A12Z Multi-Core being 4625). Compared to the fastest Single-Core Intel Core i9 in Mac => https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks having Single-Core 1244 and Multi-Core 8285, Apple's A13 Bionic Single-Core is ~7 % faster. Apple's A12Z Multi-Core being faster than A13 Bionic shows Apple has more Multi-Core performance potential.

Keep Smiling [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105251#Comment_1105251

Interesting, but I really don’t know what to use as a baseline in figuring the benchmarks compared to what I do know. (My laptop is a 9750h and my iPad Air apparently has an A12)

My initial interest was whether macos on ARM would be compatible with Software on Intel. Now I think I know less about computers than when I started. 😉

Jacob Hantla

I have no idea if Apple Silicon will help make my dreams of running full Logos on my iPad a reality...iPad OS and MacOS will still be significantly different. That said...PLEASE, whatever it takes!

Full Logos on my iPad would be a dream come true.

Maybe Apple will someday make it so that MacOS apps can just run on the iPad(?)

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105270#Comment_1105270

Full Logos on my iPad would be a dream come true.

I think there are many of us that would like to see that come to pass!

Maybe Apple will someday make it so that MacOS apps can just run on the iPad(?)

Possibly. Still, it's a whole lot easier to get iOS apps running on macOS, but a whole lot more complicated to get macOS apps running on iPadOS.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105275#Comment_1105275

Doesn’t FL recommend some sort of graphics card for optimal performance on the desktop? Unless the iPad Pro has it and I missed it, I imagine there might be a performance decline if I’m not wrong (again)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105277#Comment_1105277

Doesn’t FL recommend some sort of graphics card for optimal performance on the desktop? Unless the iPad Pro has it and I missed it, I imagine there might be a performance decline if I’m not wrong (again)

Apple demonstrated macOS running on Apple silicon using their A12Z Bionic SoC, which is the same chip used in the current iPad Pro.

So, the iPad Pro has the performance to run a desktop-like version of Logos. It’s just that the frameworks and APIs are not identical.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105282#Comment_1105282

I was referencing this: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007554992-Recommended-Hardware-and-Software

which recommends:

1GB+ DirectX11 Compatible Video Card

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105285#Comment_1105285

I was referencing this: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007554992-Recommended-Hardware-and-Software

which recommends:

1GB+ DirectX11 Compatible Video Card

The A12Z Bionic used in the iPad Pro comes with an eight-core CPU and eight-core graphics processor, which is capable of editing 4K videos, handling native 3D designing and performing augmented reality.

It can handle running the desktop version of Logos.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105322#Comment_1105322

Ok, that’s what I wanted to know. Thanks

Nick Stapleton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1105277#Comment_1105277

+1 for Full Logos on iPad. Apple's continued iPadOS development has demonstrated that the iPad is able to be a true computer replacement. Running the iPhone app on the iPad is dated and insufficient for those who want to do meaningful sermon prep or academic work on the iPad.

I can't imagine FaithLife neglecting support for Apple Silicon with how many Mac users they have in their user base.

I hope Logos is ready to roll on Day 1 with Apple Silicon.

Robert le Clus

It is very unlikely that Logos Bible Software will be running natively on Apple Silicon any time soon. And I speak here as an iOS developer who has been in the industry for 20 years. I am not a Logos developer (although I would love to be) so my answer here cannot be taken as definitive. Also, I am not Bob

However, unless things have changed, Logos on both Mac and Windows is based on .NET code or Mono. Only the UI elements are native to each operating system. I have no idea (although I am sure I could find out) how well .NET code would run on ARM processors. The hope is that Rosetta 2 will allow any program to run on ARM without any performance issues but that is something I am sure Logos will be testing in the coming months.

Since Microsoft has no plans to move to ARM that we know of, making Mac Logos run natively on ARM would mean throwing away all the shared code they have now and rewriting everything for ARM. While that, in principle might allow full Logos on iPad (something I would LOVE) there might be issues that the mobile platform would have that are not relevant for a laptop or desktop. Pen support comes to mind but there are others.

The time and money investment to convert the Mac Logos codebase to ARM would be massive and the question that Faithlife would have to ask is whether there is enough income being made from Mac users to justify that significant cost. I suspect not.

At some point, having seen how Apple does business, Apple will drop all support for Rosetta 2 and Intel code on their devices. But that is unlikely to happen any time soon. Maybe in three or four years time perhaps. And at least for now, there are no plans to discontinue manufacturing or selling Intel-based Macs.

So I would NOT suggest you wait to buy Logos or Logos resources. The only person you would hurt in that case is yourself. It is likely that Logos will be around on Mac for many years to come, and I am sure if there are any performance issues with Rosetta 2 the team at Logos/Faithlife will fix them quickly!

The idea of eventually having full Logos on an iPad is a dream come true for me, but until that happens I fully intend to support the team at Logos with my purchases and my "evangelism" of the software as they have blessed me in innumerable ways!

The new era of Apple Silicon looks amazing and as an iOS developer, it makes me excited and as an avid Logos Bible Software user I see no reason to fret or be dismayed!

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1106905#Comment_1106905

I am not a Logos developer (although I would love to be)

Faithlife is hiring! If you get a job, make sure to tell them JT (Alabama24) sent you. [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1106905#Comment_1106905

Interesting insights on ARM and software. So the future of Logos on Apple will probably depend on how easy or difficult Apple makes it for companies to develop both sides of the PC-Mac preference.

Hopefully it will go smoothly. While I jumped back to PC because a replacement Mac was too costly for the stats I needed, my 2013 rMBP was a solid machine, with only one kernel panic in the years I owned it.