I Don’t Get It
Can someone help me understand why Logos does not do a better job of supporting the use of its products on mobile devices? They have refused to add any type of editing of sermons on its iOS app. They have crippled the sermon editing feature on its web app so that there is not even a way to export/print anything. And the features on its web app in general are very limited compared to what is available through its desktop applications. At the same time, more and more people are moving to mobile devices such as the iPad Pro and Android tablets. I don’t understand Logos’ aversion to mobile devices? More than a year ago, I asked a customer support supervisor about being able to edit sermons in the iOS app and was told flatly that it wouldn’t happen because Logos didn’t see the need! It is leading me to consider reducing the amount I am spending on the Logos Cloud and moving to other services that are more responsive to ministry in the 2020s. I am sorry for the rant, but this is highly frustrating to me.
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Hank Anderson said:
I am sorry for the rant, but this is highly frustrating to me.
Welcome [:D]
Am sorry too. Rant expresses frustration while not helping Faithlife Corporation (or other users) understand reason(s) for hurt (and what could be improved). If went to a Doctor's office and said: "It hurts", what would Doctor (or Nurse) ask you ?
Hank Anderson said:Can someone help me understand why Logos does not do a better job of supporting the use of its products on mobile devices? They have refused to add any type of editing of sermons on its iOS app. They have crippled the sermon editing feature on its web app so that there is not even a way to export/print anything.
Faithlife has an ongoing challenge of what can be delightfully implemented on which platform(s) in a timely manner. Suspect not implemented is a fairer technical description about sermon editing as opposed to "crippled" while wondering how sermon export/print would help ministry (worship) workflow. Many web browsers have the ability to print a web page, which can include save as PDF. Hence wondering what Sermon Editor view(s) in Web App would allow web browser print functionality to be used ? (workflow discussion may uncover some other sermon options: e.g. Faithlife publication/presentation using Proclaim and/or other Faithlife web sites).
Thankful for many friendly forum and Faithlife discussions; have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn. One insight learned during Logos 4 Mac alpha, beta, 4.*. releases was immensity of the Logos 4 application. Logos Wiki => Logos Release History and => Mac Release Notes and History document substantial Mac feature parity took three years from Oct 2009 (first Logos 4 Mac alpha release) until Oct 2012 (initial Logos 5.0 release) to achieve. A lesson learned for Faithlife was not to promise an implementation date as Logos for Mac 1 History shows four years that included some Logos for Mac promise(s) followed by many months before being viable for customer use. Thankful for Logos 4 Mac alpha releases every week or two feeling like opening Christmas present(s) as Faithlife implemented more Logos 4 usability on Mac.
Two more threads to express mobile improvement desires is => Logos 9 Wishlist and => What full (desktop) Logos features would you need to see added to the mobile app?
Another place is UserVoice for Mobile Apps that allows other users to vote. Noticed no UserVoice for Web Apps along with UserVoice for Logos.com no longer being available so dreaming of user feedback improvement for Mobile, Web Apps, ... (desire a way for users to vote along with seeing what's in progress and what is planned along with user voting to help Faithlife prioritize development efforts).
Also noticed thread Web App FAQs posted on 5 Feb 2019 has an old Web App https://7.app.logos.com that redirects to https://app.logos.com
Hank Anderson said:At the same time, more and more people are moving to mobile devices such as the iPad Pro and Android tablets.
Thread => Apple Silicon discussion includes: Geekbench for Android => https://browser.geekbench.com/android-benchmarks currently shows the fastest Qualcomm Snapdragon has Single-Core 905 and Multi-Core 3318 benchmarks, which are slower than iOS => https://browser.geekbench.com/ios-benchmarks showing Apple's A13 Bionic (in iPhone 11) has Single-Core 1327 and Multi-Core 3390 (with Apple's A12Z Multi-Core being 4625). Compared to the fastest Single-Core Intel Core i9 in Mac => https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks having Single-Core 1244 and Multi-Core 8285, Apple's A13 Bionic Single-Core is ~7 % faster. Apple's A12Z Multi-Core being faster than A13 Bionic shows Apple has more Multi-Core performance potential.
Android (and Windows Surface Pro) have ARM processors, which are noticeably slower (humans tend to notice processor speed difference greater than 10 % so the fastest ARM for Android is currently 32 % slower than Apple's A13 Bionic). Developing for Android has a plethora of versions and hardware capabilities => https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards My apologies for personally avoiding Android due to many known security issues (cheaper hardware has a privacy invasion cost for ad revenue generation).
FYI: my primary device for Logos & Verbum use is a 2019 model 27" iMac with 5K display so can use visual filter highlighting.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Hank Anderson said:
Can someone help me understand why Logos does not do a better job of supporting the use of its products on mobile devices?
Keep Smiling has given you an excellent and lengthy answer.
I will give you a brief one from a different angle: not enough people are paying for this development.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:
not enough people are paying for this development.
Kindly, wondering.
Any customer doesn't 'pay' for development, no matter the company. It goes into the pot, and the company plans out its future ... choosing to enhance some lines, starve others, buy other businesses, and pay stockholder/owners. So, squeeeeeealing customers are a valid communication technique ... it's why customer surveys invite comments.
The mobile guy answered the last squeal, saying mobile development was fully supported and enthusiastically pursued. Like the OP, well, ok? Hard to see, since I use both older FL apps and latest. I ceased on-line use of my Logos desktop, since Phil said the web app would be the leader. Then, he said not.
So. I think you can plan on desktop. The others appear to be add-ons.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:SineNomine said:
not enough people are paying for this development.
Kindly, wondering.
Any customer doesn't 'pay' for development, no matter the company. It goes into the pot, and the company plans out its future ... choosing to enhance some lines, starve others, buy other businesses, and pay stockholder/owners. So, squeeeeeealing customers are a valid communication technique ... it's why customer surveys invite comments.
Yup. If I'd made my initial answer longer, I'd have spelled that out. People buying (or renting) FL products and telling FL they want better mobile apps are, in essence, paying for increased mobile development, just as Proclaim customers are paying for increased Proclaim development. If Proclaim picked up ten thousand more (paying) customers next week, Proclaim development would speed up very shortly thereafter. If ten thousand new people created FL accounts and started using mobile apps next week and they all bought annual Faithlife Connect or Verbum Now subscriptions, mobile app development would speed up soon, too. Developer salaries have to be paid somehow. I imagine that if someone wanted to give FL $100k on the condition that it all be spent exclusively on mobile app development, FL would be OK with that, too.
It might be worth noting that FL has decent telemetric data on the use of its mobile apps, so it knows things like how many people who use the desktop apps are also using mobile apps, how they are using them, how many people are using mobile apps and never buying anything from FL, how many people are buying stuff directly through the mobile apps, etc.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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We'd definitely like to bring the full Sermon Editor to our mobile app, especially iPad and Android tablet. I've been exploring this recently with our team.
It's not that we don't see improving our mobile and web apps as important. Rather, it takes a lot of resources to develop on five platforms (Windows, Mac, iOS, Android, and web—more if you consider the differences between phones and tablets). We used to develop only on Windows. The cost of development in our multi-platform world requires a huge investment and results in a slower pace than you or we would like.
The best thing you can do is help us prioritize the right features on the right platforms. You can vote on this project on our new feedback site: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-mobile-app/posts/25.
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I don't have a mobile device, unless you consider my laptop as such, that said the tension between the phones/tablets and desk/lap top computers have been because the phones/tablets aren't capable of processing the same as a desk/lap top device. And until they are the tension will continue. I would hate to see Logos or any software reduce its usability for the sake of equalizing the features of both platforms. Perhaps the phone/tablet companies should be contacted to bring their devices more in line with desk/laptop computers. So the full features of a computer could be available on them. In Christ's love, God bless
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Phil's answer is correct... I'd also add that while some people are "all-in" on mobile devices, whether phones or tablets, it does seem like many people exhibit a 'create/consume' distinction (myself included!) where most 'creation' (writing, editing, typing) happens on a laptop or desktop -- something with a keyboard and maybe a mouse -- and use their mobile devices more for 'consumption' (reading, presenting, sharing).
Of course with iPad keyboards and more the tablets (and even phones) are becoming creation devices -- and some people, like my wife!, are phone-only users, but when we have to prioritize, as we do right now, we start with putting 'create' functions on keyboard based devices first.
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I’m really thrilled that the mobile app has got the factbook, passage lists, and more robust/versatile/accessible searching.
There’s been some real improvements for Logos 9. I’d love to see more parity with the desktop or web apps, but my biggest concerns are where the app feels “broken” still - the atlas was working relatively well before it was broken by an iOS update ages ago, and now the only way to view it is to go to the web-app. Images are often too small for text to be legible and can’t be zoomed in on - often tapping on them opens the web-app instead of the image itself. Pop-ups for word information ignore my preferences about font-sizes so seem almost comically large and unwieldy compared to the rest of the app, etc.
Still, it’s an incredibly ambitious app and it works really well 95% of the time, and they are adding to it all the time.
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As the one who ranted, I want to thank the developers of the Logos mobile app for the new sermon editor. I have tried it out for just a few minutes in the Logos TestFlight app and it seems to be off to a good start. It already has features not in the browser version of the sermon editor. I look forward to it’s continuing development but wanted to express my appreciation for the efforts thus far. I fully realize that such things are not done easily. Again, thank you.
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