M1 Mac Chip Compatibility
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Ken,
I found this post looking for information about other's experiences with Logos and the M1. Have you run into problems running it with Rosetta 2?
-Don
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Since I run a multitude of Logos panels across 6 monitors on a MacBook Pro 16, the desktop is absolutely the priority. I could never accomplish the depth and speed of my exegetical work running simply on an iPad. I hope Logos never sacrifices updating Logos desktop compatibility for the sake of a central focus on iPad. A tiny iPad screen would never compare to 30 desktop screens across 6 monitors on a Mac. That would be a severe downgrade, one that I would find unworkable. So please update for compatibility to M1 as soon as possible. Thanks so much!
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breaking news
.NET 6.0 nightly builds for Apple M1 are now available. Works but your YMMV. Please file bugs. Look for "macOS Arm64" @ https://t.co/3SZmy73Z10
— Rich Lander #BlackLivesMatter (@runfaster2000) January 14, 20210 -
I wonder what are the implications of Logos coming to Apple Silicon for Surface Pro X users? Not wanting to hijack the thread, but would appreciate if anyone could give some helpful analysis.
Since both are ARM devices, I assume there's some kind of direct/indirect benefits, or is it more of a 'entirely up to Microsoft' situation? Considering the SQ chips are not super capable, but considering the fact that it's now able to run Adobe Premier Pro and Rush via emulation (seen on Youtube), I'm gonna assume it will get better as Microsoft further polishes the emulation, and perhaps Pro X user can somehow benefit from Logos coming towards Apple Silicon to enhance the experience?
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I wonder what are the implications of Logos coming to Apple Silicon for Surface Pro X users?
There aren't any. ALL of Macs will be migrating to Apple Silicon, so FL doesn't have a choice except to either support it or drop Mac altogether (which they have said they don't plan to do). The Surface Pro doesn't run on Apple Silicon, and there aren't any (legal) emulators.
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... perhaps Pro X user can somehow benefit from Logos coming towards Apple Silicon to enhance the experience?
Faithlife feedback => Native Support for Apple Silicon Processors currently has 31 votes and status of Planned. If/when Faihthlife supports universal application bundle (both Intel & ARM) for macOS, then ARM support for Pro X may become a possibility (depends on WPF code modifications needed for Microsoft ARM plus customer usage). Business consideration for Pro X is percentage of Faithlife customers purchasing/using Pro X (personally doubt less than 1% customer base usage of Microsoft ARM being wise for development/support costs).
Am looking forward to faster Apple Silicon models this year plus hoping for new Mac models (laptop & iMac) having touch screen (would enable seamless iOS & iPad app usage on Apple Silicon Mac plus provide incentive for Faithlife to improve touch screen interaction).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I just saw that Apple itself is contributing patches to a lot of open source development platforms, including Mono. They're clearly invested in making Apple Silicon a success, and I'm sure they want to see quick adoption of native support.
My guess is that we'll see M1 support in Mono considerably sooner than Phil's timeline suggests.
I don't blame him for being conservative on his timelines here on the forum though! It's not something Logos has much control over.
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For me, a full-featured iPad app would be more important. I do plan on upgrading to apple silicon within the next 12-18 months, so that would be nice too. But I'm more interested in the iPad app because I use my iPad to preach from all the time. Sometimes I'll be up on the platform and think of a verse — 10 minutes before I preach — but can't add it to my sermon because the sermon editor is just a view on the iPad. So frustrating. I've learned to work around it with the online version of sermon editor, but that is cumbersome.
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but can't add it to my sermon because the sermon editor is just a view on the iPad.
The ability to edit sermons on the iPad is currently in beta testing - and it works very nicely
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Now that Apple has announced more M1 products today (24" iMac and the new iPad Pro), any new updates on updating Logos to run natively? All of their products will be M1-based before we know it...
Faithlife feedback => Native Support for Apple Silicon Processors currently has status of Planned (no new comments by FL) with 47 votes (#8 overall for Logos Desktop App, with an increase of 16 votes since 27 Jan 2021).
Caveat: new feedback website needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 17 votes.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Caveat: new feedback website needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 17 votes.
Unfortunately, you have to have a separate login. Consequently, I haven't voted for it.
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Caveat: new feedback website needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 17 votes.
Unfortunately, you have to have a separate login. Consequently, I haven't voted for it.
I can only imagine how user voting would increase if the new feedback website was integrated into the Faithlife SSO system. Logos UserVoice had suggestions with at least 900 users voting while Logos Desktop App has 84 votes for Paper Builder (currently the most)
Keep Smiling [:)
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I'm looking to get the 24" iMac. I can get the 8GB of RAM today at the local store, or I can wait a couple months for 16GB of RAM to be shipped to me. Because of the unified memory concept and everything being on the same chip, is the amount of RAM still as significant as it used to be?
I'm always in favor of the "get as much as you can afford" concept, but there are other considerations that make getting it sooner more appealing, if not necessary.
Laptop: Windows 7 Professional x64, Intel Dual-Core, 2GB RAM, Radeon X1600
Home: Vista Ultimate x86, AMD Quad-Core, 4GB RAM, GeForce 8400 GS 512MB
Work: Windows 7 x64, Intel Dual-Core, 8GB RAM, Radeon X1300/X1550
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Hi Gabriel,
I have been using both an M1 Mini and an M1 air since release.
I did decide on 16GB on both of my units, and I am glad I did this.
I do not have a need on either of my macs for more than 2 monitors, but if you have **any** applications that require Rosetta2 - Logos/Proclaim - you will be better served with 16G due to swap issues.
I also needed to run windows, so I run Parallels with the ARM version of Windows 10. Since that will run **any** windows app via its own translation method, it was important to me to have the memory for the VM to be up alongside everything else. I knew this going into the purchase, so chose 16G up front. As a side note, the Windows in Parallels running windows native windows apps through essentially 2 translation layers runs amazingly well...
There is an even more important reason on the iMac to obtain the 16GB version:
1) ports. You will **need** the full array of ports that is only available on the 16GB versionI would start shopping Apple stores directly. Here in Northern VA we had several stores that had the 16G iMac in stock as late as yesterday, since many folks were purchasing the lower-end unit for students or as secondary computers. The 8G model was gone in less than an hour. I also started shopping a bit broader, since we have a fair number of Apple stores in the DC-Baltimore corridor. Some had 16g models in stock, but they tended toward the pricier 1TB SSD models.
In any case, I would say the 16G is essential. Some other issues are SSD swap usage on 8G models (running Proclaim with Logos and MS Word and OneNote, some of the 8G units were swapping quite a bit... it is very FAST, but does wear on the SSD). When we added OBS to the mix on one of the 8G Macbooks at the church we noticed the swap usage was quite high... as soon as we put the 16G mac mini in place that issue went away.
- Matt
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To add to this,
I just "discovered" this last Friday when I received my new iPad. I had seen this post, and forgotten this feature was available. While setting up my new unit, I installed the logos app, opened a sermon and WOW do I like this.
There are times I will want to add/remove something on the fly from my notes, even right before preaching, so being able to edit this on the unit I use while preaching is a wonderful feature.
Previously I was using the Logos web app to handle this on my iPad, but the Logos app now handles this VERY well. It even has the "preach" feature and seems to control the slides fairly well (we always have lag due to the poor internet connection at our church building).
Thanks to the LOGOS team for this!!!
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I'm looking to get the 24" iMac. I can get the 8GB of RAM today at the local store, or I can wait a couple months for 16GB of RAM to be shipped to me. Because of the unified memory concept and everything being on the same chip, is the amount of RAM still as significant as it used to be?
I'm always in favor of the "get as much as you can afford" concept, but there are other considerations that make getting it sooner more appealing, if not necessary.
It's always good to have more RAM, but 8 is still good for day-to-day tasks and even some video/graphics work. That said, like the other poster above (Matthew) said, Rosetta is safer with more RAM. If Logos made a native ARM port sooner rather than later, this wouldn't be an issue.
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Caveat: new feedback website needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 17 votes.
I gladly created a separate login to get this item closer to the top. Just takes a few seconds. I would encourage others to do the same. I think it is totally worth it. You can even connect to Facebook or Google to shorten the process.
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I second this! Can we please have some updates about M1 compatibility? Just got an update today, and nothing about M1.
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I second this! Can we please have some updates about M1 compatibility? Just got an update today, and nothing about M1.
FL doesn’t often provide time tables. However, see this post and the link at the bottom of it. https://community.logos.com/forums/p/196433/1139418.aspx#1139418
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Since Mono added support for the M1 3 months ago, does that mean we are roughly a few months away from native support?
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Can we at least assume that FL is taking the "Mono" path since it's the quickest according to their own estimates?
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Can we at least assume that FL is taking the "Mono" path since it's the quickest according to their own estimates?
Mono affects cross platform shared code. Looking at "About Logos" or "About Verbum" has a scrollable list of copyrighted software components in Logos & Verbum applications on macOS. To run natively on M1 Mac Chip needs native software code for all components.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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So was this inaccurate?
”The two mostly likely pathways to native support probably look like this:”- Mono adds support for Apple's M1 ARM processor, allowing us to generate and compile directly to ARM. Mono already supports other ARM platforms. I haven't seen any advertised time frames, but maybe this path could be 6–12 months out? That's a wild guess, so I wouldn't put much stock in it until we hear something official from Mono. But this path should be faster, since they already support other ARM platforms.
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So was this inaccurate?
Mono Supported Architectures => https://www.mono-project.com/docs/about-mono/supported-platforms/ includes ARM for Linux, iPhone, Android. Almost 7 months after 28 Nov 2020 update shows mono-project has not added ARM Support for Apple Silicon. In February 2021, Microsoft unveiled .NET 6 Preview. Humanly not know which path to Apple Silicon native support will become viable first. Speculating: if .NET 6 in 2022, then Logos 10 & Verbum 10 may be the first application release that can run natively on Apple Silicon using macOS.
Thankful for update on 27 Nov 2020
The two mostly likely pathways to native support probably look like this:
- Mono adds support for Apple's M1 ARM processor, allowing us to generate and compile directly to ARM. Mono already supports other ARM platforms. I haven't seen any advertised time frames, but maybe this path could be 6–12 months out? That's a wild guess, so I wouldn't put much stock in it until we hear something official from Mono. But this path should be faster, since they already support other ARM platforms.
- We move to .NET 5 (planned to start in Q1 for other reasons) and then to .NET 6 a year later, which plans to add full support for Apple's Silicon: code generation, compiler support, official testing and support by Microsoft. .NET 6 is due in February of 2022, so this pathway puts us at least 15–18 months out, I'd guess.
A couple of clarifications:
- Getting Logos 9 running natively on Apple's Silicon is planned and very important to us. It's not a matter of if but when. The M1 shows promise for making Logos run faster on Mac, and we're excited about that.
- The two paths I laid out above are the fastest paths to native support. The two alternatives—rewriting the app and building M1 support into .NET 5 and/or Mono—would both take longer. The first alternative would probably take a dozen developers 4–6 years. Not sure about the second, but it's not a feasible path for many reasons.
So, we'll get to native support as quickly as we can, but we're blocked by .NET and Mono and can't go any faster than they do.
The priority for us right now, while we wait for these third parties, is making sure Logos 9 runs well via Rosetta 2. We have some work do to in our web views based on CEF's slow performance. We'll keep testing and working to make sure M1 users are well supported both now and after we're able to deliver native support.
Thankful for code base insight on 28 Nov 2020
Decisions made years ago are now coming back around to make this a difficult task.
There are tradeoffs with every technology choice, and we don't regret using Mono to deliver Logos on Mac. We don't have the luxury of being able to write Logos natively on five platforms. It's heavy use of code sharing that makes it possible for us to build and maintain such a robust app on five platforms. We have roughly 25 developers working on Windows, MacOS, iOS/iPadOS, and the web app (while maintaining responsibility for a variety of other apps, services, and technologies).
We use Mono to share code between Windows and MacOS. We used Xamarin to share code between iOS/iPadOS and Android, though we've dialed back from that for various reasons. We're using Flutter to build a mobile app for Faithlife Courses on iOS/iPadOS and Android. We use WebAssembly (Wasm) to share desktop code with the web app. And we're making heavy use of web technologies to share code between desktop and web—and with Factbook even with mobile.
These features are all written as shared web components:
- Atlas
- Bible Browser
- Canvas
- Charts
- Courses
- Factbook
- Homepage
- Media
- Notes
- Sermon Builder
- Sermon Manager
- Text Comparison
- Workflow Editor
Our interactive resources are another form of HTML-based code sharing between desktop and web.
Faithlife feedback => Native Support for Apple Silicon Processors currently has 70 votes (# 4 for Most votes in Logos Desktop) and status of Planned.
Caveat: new feedback website needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 31 votes.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Logos 9 Mac native on M1 for sure.
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So I don't have much new to add but did want to point out that using Logos 9 on M1 iMac is not a joy. It is so slow compared to my several year old similarly configured laptop that I find myself using it (even though it is much smaller screen, etc). Simple tasks that are nearly instant on my intel laptop often take multiple seconds on the iMac. . .I find myself waiting 30 percent of the time. ..
Hope they get native fast. . .
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So I don't have much new to add but did want to point out that using Logos 9 on M1 iMac is not a joy. It is so slow compared to my several year old similarly configured laptop that I find myself using it (even though it is much smaller screen, etc). Simple tasks that are nearly instant on my intel laptop often take multiple seconds on the iMac. . .I find myself waiting 30 percent of the time. ..
Hope they get native fast. . .
Hi Adam,
That is not my experience. I think you should start a separate thread with logs and see if this can't be fixed for you,
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