Ravi Cancelled
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Certainly RZ bears the bulk of the blame but it sounds like his ministry enabled him. So there is blame there. They should have rebuked him, then held him accountable from that point on. But possibly they saw him as their cash cow so didn't want to threaten that. Psalm 141:4,5 is relevant here. I pray this regularly for myself.
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John W said:
Certainly RZ bears the bulk of the blame but it sounds like his ministry enabled him. So there is blame there. They should have rebuked him, then held him accountable from that point on. But possibly they saw him as their cash cow so didn't want to threaten that.
As a financial economist, we understand the source of incentives or lack thereof. There are 2 issues:
1) Family members cannot be expected to provide oversight. Ravi's daughter was the CEO. His wife was Vice Chairman. How can we then expect them to ask tough questions of Ravi? If someone accused my wife of 20+ years of something, of course, I am going to believe my wife.
2) Money is a source of incentives. Ravi's daughter made over $200K; his wife over $150K (google it). I doubt if these two folks would be able to make that much money outside of RZIM. If you're overpaid relative to your skill set, then you have no incentive to lose that job. Why are they overpaid? Non-profits flush with cash are notorious for overpaying (my anecdotal observation; not backed by research) because there is no market mechanism to keep costs in check.
The combination of (1) and (2) is present in so many Christian organizations run by well-known pastors.
First, get rid of family members in the oversight position if you want accountability.
Second, use some sort of compensation consultants to think of fair pay to avoid overpaying.
John W said:
Psalm 141:4,5 is relevant here. I pray this regularly for myself.
Thank you for these great verses. I am just a regular joe, but I am going to include this in my prayer file.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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NDD said:
Doc B:
don’t think what is happening is simply a matter of cancel culture but a response to what message WE want to present to the unsaved World. Are WE going to try to cover up or excuse his actions as ’the Church’ has been guilty of in the past or are WE going to draw a LINE IN THE SAND and say WE will not tolerate sexual misconduct.
You attributed this quote to me, but I didn't say it.
I'd appreciate if you would remove it. (This has nothing to do with whether I approve or disapprove of the quote...it is simply bad form to attribute a quote to me I did not make.)
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:NDD said:
Doc B:
don’t think what is happening is simply a matter of cancel culture but a response to what message WE want to present to the unsaved World. Are WE going to try to cover up or excuse his actions as ’the Church’ has been guilty of in the past or are WE going to draw a LINE IN THE SAND and say WE will not tolerate sexual misconduct.
You attributed this quote to me, but I didn't say it.
I'd appreciate if you would remove it. (This has nothing to do with whether I approve or disapprove of the quote...it is simply bad form to attribute a quote to me I did not make.)
I'm sorry about my mistake. I am happy to remove it. I just need help from one of the forum members as to how to remove it.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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As I read along in this thread about a publisher who has, essentially, silenced the voice of an author one question remains in my mind. How many books would remain to be published if all materials by immoral author's, sinful people, disagreeable theological perspectives, offensive ideas, different faith traditions, unholy people, and heretical ideas....just about any other reasons for theologians (loosely speaking) gets their spleen in an uproar about. I'm thinking cancel culture has been part of Christianity far longer than when some of our political enemies came up with the idea.
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Are not publishers allowed to distribute the works they want? Is HarperCollins breaking any of the contracts they made with the author of these works?
The allegations are not just that he participated in some immoral activities. It is rather that he and his ministry used their power to continue abuse and silence criticism. He is dead, and so is facing his maker - who I truly believe is merciful. And his ministry is trying to come clean by paying for an independent study of the allegations and distributing their "dirty laundry" as part of coming clean. Part of me commends them for this, but part of me also knows this is the standard first step - and you hardly get much credit for doing this. It is a step - too small - but a needed first step.
But I am fine with authors saying they do not want to be associated with this behavior, and so wanting someone else to write an introduction for their books. I am fine with a publisher saying they do not want to be associated with this, and would rather destroy their inventory than sell it for PR reasons. I am fine with a ministry being put on a "dollar diet" and loosing those contracts that have been supporting them. This is part of repentance.
And I will be fine when after the controversy is fully investigated, with changes to make it less likely to happen again, for the rights holders to negotiate a new contract to distribute those works after their value for the future is recognized in the light of everything that has happened.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
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Rene if you truly beliebe this is cancel culture in this instance, if you truly understand the depth of this deliberate systematic sin and believe as Christian we should continue to allow him to be put forward as someone who represents Christ then I am concerned for how you can say you honour God’s name above all.
I hope this man before his death did confess his sin before God, I hope standing before God there is for him mercy, grace and forgiveness, that in spite of his sin his faith was genuine. For I too am a sinner no more deserving of grace, mercy and forgiveness than he. But when sun such as this exposed and a person is in a position of leadership that he was there has to be strong consequence for what matters is not this man’s name or what value we got out of his ministry but God’s name. Rene please carefully consider whose name it is that you hallow.
Rene Atchley said:As I read along in this thread about a publisher who has, essentially, silenced the voice of an author one question remains in my mind. How many books would remain to be published if all materials by immoral author's, sinful people, disagreeable theological perspectives, offensive ideas, different faith traditions, unholy people, and heretical ideas....just about any other reasons for theologians (loosely speaking) gets their spleen in an uproar about. I'm thinking cancel culture has been part of Christianity far longer than when some of our political enemies came up with the idea.
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I believe we (buyers) should decide to buy or not to buy books. If publishers are truly follow their convictions then they should remove the book of Psalm from the Bible. David did much more shameful things, and yet Jesus is Son of David. Judah did as well much worse things and yet He is from the Tribe of Judah
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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David repented of his own sin. He was heartbroken when confronted. That's the difference.
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Jan Krohn said:
David repented of his own sin. He was heartbroken when confronted. That's the difference.
Do you think it would matter to our publishers?
David repented after he was exposed. He did more evil by covering things up before exposure.
How do you know Ravi didn't repent?
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Just curious, did Bill Hybel's received the same kinda approach from publishers?
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Wild Eagle said:
David repented after he was exposed. He did more evil by covering things up before exposure.
How do you determine which behaviour was more evil? Ravi committed sexual, emotional and spiritual abuse over decades, lied to the public and to his wife when he claimed that he had been faithful in his marriage, and made sure that Lori Anne Thompson remains under the NDA after his death. The last point is evidence that he was unrepentant to his death. Read the report, and take your time to think about the details. It's only 12 pages.
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David did repent and God forgave him. However even though God forgave David, he did not remove all the consequences of David's sins. David paid a horrific price for his sin with Bathsheba, including losing a child and losing his kingdom. The sin also had a lasting effect on his decedents (2 Sam 12:9-14). Forgiveness does not mean that there should not be consequences, even severe consequences, especially for those in a position of leadership.
The matter is complicated by Ravi's passing. Whether the decision to remove Ravi's publications, at least for a period of time, is a correct response can be debated. But for someone who had such a public ministry to misuse his position and apparently his ministries' financial resources to facilitate and cover a pattern of sin that victimized others, requires a strong public response from the body of Christ. In the future, Ravi’s writings may still bring spiritual insight to those who read them. Perhaps in a similar way, I would imagine that many of the Psalms David wrote were not being used for public worship right after his adultery and the murder of Uriah become public.
I have often greatly benefited from Ravi's ministry and this whole affair deeply saddens me. The "cancel culture" tries to silence opposing views. In this situation it is not about silencing opposing views, but how to respond as followers of Jesus to a revelation of deep hypocrisy from a very public church leader.
This situation also humbles me as I contemplate how I too might easily slip onto a wrong path.
1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
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Jan Krohn said:
How do you determine which behaviour was more evil? ... Read the report, and take your time to think about the details. It's only 12 pages.
I will not comment on that because conversations are getting theological and that was not my point. I think I expressed my concern about my disagreement with publishers decisions and their partiality.
P.S: the first thing I did when I read the news was to read report. I always prefer primary sources
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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DIsciple II said:
Rene if you truly beliebe this is cancel culture in this instance, if you truly understand the depth of this deliberate systematic sin and believe as Christian we should continue to allow him to be put forward as someone who represents Christ then I am concerned for how you can say you honour God’s name above all.
I hope this man before his death did confess his sin before God, I hope standing before God there is for him mercy, grace and forgiveness, that in spite of his sin his faith was genuine. For I too am a sinner no more deserving of grace, mercy and forgiveness than he. But when sun such as this exposed and a person is in a position of leadership that he was there has to be strong consequence for what matters is not this man’s name or what value we got out of his ministry but God’s name. Rene please carefully consider whose name it is that you hallow.
Rene Atchley said:As I read along in this thread about a publisher who has, essentially, silenced the voice of an author one question remains in my mind. How many books would remain to be published if all materials by immoral author's, sinful people, disagreeable theological perspectives, offensive ideas, different faith traditions, unholy people, and heretical ideas....just about any other reasons for theologians (loosely speaking) gets their spleen in an uproar about. I'm thinking cancel culture has been part of Christianity far longer than when some of our political enemies came up with the idea.
I believe that clearly, in this thread, the ugly head of righteous christian cancel culture has clearly been shown....as has been evidenced through most of the history of organized religion called Christian. Nor am I sure that a group of people gathering on a business oriented support forum get to make decisions about who officially makes the call on who represents Christianity. Toleration has historically not been a strength of the Christian community after the first generation of the faithful died. Perhaps a more reasonable goal than canceling out those who we judge or disagree with is simply to let a business make their best call on what to publish given their market focus.
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DIsciple II said:
Rene if you truly beliebe this is cancel culture in this instance, if you truly understand the depth of this deliberate systematic sin and believe as Christian we should continue to allow him to be put forward as someone who represents Christ then I am concerned for how you can say you honour God’s name above all.
I hope this man before his death did confess his sin before God, I hope standing before God there is for him mercy, grace and forgiveness, that in spite of his sin his faith was genuine. For I too am a sinner no more deserving of grace, mercy and forgiveness than he. But when sun such as this exposed and a person is in a position of leadership that he was there has to be strong consequence for what matters is not this man’s name or what value we got out of his ministry but God’s name. Rene please carefully consider whose name it is that you hallow.
Rene Atchley said:As I read along in this thread about a publisher who has, essentially, silenced the voice of an author one question remains in my mind. How many books would remain to be published if all materials by immoral author's, sinful people, disagreeable theological perspectives, offensive ideas, different faith traditions, unholy people, and heretical ideas....just about any other reasons for theologians (loosely speaking) gets their spleen in an uproar about. I'm thinking cancel culture has been part of Christianity far longer than when some of our political enemies came up with the idea.
I believe that clearly, in this thread, the ugly head of righteous christian cancel culture has clearly been shown....as has been evidenced through most of the history of organized religion called Christian. Nor am I sure that a group of people gathering on a business oriented support forum get to make decisions about who officially makes the call on who represents Christianity. Toleration has historically not been a strength of the Christian community after the first generation of the faithful died. Perhaps a more reasonable goal than canceling out those who judge and disagree with is simply to let business make their best call based on what to produce given their market focus.
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I have a fair number of Ravi books. I'll treat them the same as the rest of my books.Whats good, keep, whats not good, toss out.
He made a lot of mistakes, and if were honest, so have we.
I don't want to make light of his abuses. They were wrong. But this is a case of tossing the baby out with the bathwater.
How many disgusting people have been used by God?
Spurgeon writes of 1 tim 1:15 in Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit Volume 9 that "Paul calls himself in our text the chief of sinners. It is possible that he literally exceeded every other sinner, dared more, and sunk deeper in crime than any of his fellows among the sons of men. If so, let no man that lives despair of mercy. If the gate of heaven is wide enough for the chief of sinners to go through, then" (long story short) there is room for anyone.
I'm just glad publishing houses aren't God. For that matter, I'm glad I'm not God. [:|]L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Is there anyone on this forum who has not struggled with persistent sin despite repeatedly repenting and despite persistently praying for God's help to dropkick the sin? If so, you're either ignorant of your sin (you have a blindspot) or your definition of sin is not as strict as in the Bible!
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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Erich-Ayumi said:
Just curious, did Bill Hybel's received the same kinda approach from publishers?
Apparently still on the shelves at CBD
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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DMB said:
Doc knew that.
Umm...psychic lately? Apparently not...I have *no idea* what the time limit is for this.
You wanna take down YOUR false attribution now (if it's not past whatever the limit is)?
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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I read a few articles about this, and at the risk of confusing sources, one of them (I think Dr White) said that the moral here is to be careful to have accountability in our ministries. We need to be under the leadership of a local church.
At the end of the day. His actions were reprehensible.
I'm not sure if they rise to the level of silencing his voice. Perhaps they did rise to that level, and perhaps we should.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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abondservant said:
I'm not sure if they rise to the level of silencing his voice. Perhaps they did rise to that level, and perhaps we should.
I imagine that publishers want to make sure they don’t appear to be condoning or dismissing it. Sexual abuse certainly seems to rise to that level of concern.
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Verbum Max0 -
Very unfortunate! Read the last 5 responses on this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/195000.aspx
DAL
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Writing what I posted on social media to the group in general:
People are talking about things they have not read (the extensive report) as if they have. This was long. Multiple victims over a period of time. Decades. No remorse apparent to anyone even to the end. It involved misuse of ministry funds. Hiding and deception. Rape. Phone and email records and then other records destroyed. Basically gaslighting his ministry partners. Suing a victim, whose life was ruined. This has all the markings of a narcissistic sociopath. Premeditated manipulation and seduction and created states of dependency. So instead of shaming those hurt, even those who gave funds to his ministry, please just stop and let others process this appropriately. Every one of us is a sinful human being in need of a Savior. This is not the question and saying this to those hurting does not help. Every man battles lust and if this is hitting your conscience on that in any way, please get help. Don't add insult to injury to some of these conversations. This is addressed to all in general in love.
Angela
Pretty much any theological system, save universalism would have a hard time reconciling that the family reported there was never a moment of repentance before his death. We need to pray for all affected. Only God knows at this point if there was any remorse.
Just a heads up that the report is somewhat explicit. It may trigger some people to read it. Mike Winger a pastor and a former domestic violence counselor did just that and offered simple commentary in an appropriate way on his YouTube channel. If you are interested you can just search both names together.0 -
Angela Meister said:
Mike Winger a pastor and a former domestic violence counselor did just that and offered simple commentary in an appropriate way on his YouTube channel. If you are interested you can just search both names together.
I can second that. Mike Winger's video on the matter is very insightful. It's much more than a commentary, as he emphasizes the steps necessary to avoid similar cases in the future.
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Angela Meister said:
People are talking about things they have not read (the extensive report) as if they have. This was long.
Don't assume. Especially about people you have no clue about.
Angela Meister said:Multiple victims over a period of time. Decades. No remorse apparent to anyone even to the end. It involved misuse of ministry funds. Hiding and deception. Rape. Phone and email records and then other records destroyed. Basically gaslighting his ministry partners. Suing a victim, whose life was ruined. This has all the markings of a narcissistic sociopath.
Nobody has disputed this characterization of Ravi.
Angela Meister said:please just stop and let others process this appropriately.
Just like you have a right to voice your opinion, others have a right to voice their opinion. Who gives you the right to silence others? What makes you think that you are right and others are wrong? Maybe, you need an IV of libertarianism.
Angela Meister said:Every man battles lust and if this is hitting your conscience on that in any way, please get help. Don't add insult to injury to some of these conversations. This is addressed to all in general in love.
AngelaThis has nothing to do with the nature of sin. I've dealt with lack of gentleness that have grieved others. I didn't know I was not gentle (that was my blindspot). I was just being honest with people. But that doesn't mean others have not been hurt. Who is to say that their hurt not is just as big as those that Ravi hurt.
Angela Meister said:Pretty much any theological system, save universalism would have a hard time reconciling that the family reported there was never a moment of repentance before his death. We need to pray for all affected. Only God knows at this point if there was any remorse.
How do you know that Ravis' family is not protecting themselves by lying? Anyways, the only one to whom Ravi had to repent at the minimum was to God. Remember the thief on the cross next to Jesus. He didn't go ask for forgiveness from all those he hurt. What did Jesus say to him? You will be with me in paradise.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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Rene Atchley said:
I believe that clearly, in this thread, the ugly head of righteous christian cancel culture has clearly been shown....
Rene no matter how you want to label those with whom you disagree with the facts are the facts. Ravi was outed by his own ministry for deliberate, systematic, extended sin that involved the manipulation of people through the use of ministry funds to cover up his behavior.
Angela sums up things as well as any:
Angela Meister said:People are talking about things they have not read (the extensive report) as if they have. This was long. Multiple victims over a period of time. Decades. No remorse apparent to anyone even to the end. It involved misuse of ministry funds. Hiding and deception. Rape. Phone and email records and then other records destroyed. Basically gaslighting his ministry partners. Suing a victim, whose life was ruined. This has all the markings of a narcissistic sociopath. Premeditated manipulation and seduction and created states of dependency. So instead of shaming those hurt, even those who gave funds to his ministry, please just stop and let others process this appropriately. Every one of us is a sinful human being in need of a Savior. This is not the question and saying this to those hurting does not help. Every man battles lust and if this is hitting your conscience on that in any way, please get help. Don't add insult to injury to some of these conversations. This is addressed to all in general in love.
Angela
Pretty much any theological system, save universalism would have a hard time reconciling that the family reported there was never a moment of repentance before his death. We need to pray for all affected. Only God knows at this point if there was any remorse.I have not seen a single person in this post suggest they are more righteous as Ravi, I have not seen a single person who has said they are not prone to the same tempations if they do not keep their relationship with God in check.
Rene Atchley said:Nor am I sure that a group of people gathering on a business oriented support forum get to make decisions about who officially makes the call on who represents Christianity. Toleration has historically not been a strength of the Christian community after the first generation of the faithful died. Perhaps a more reasonable goal than canceling out those who we judge or disagree with is simply to let a business make their best call on what to publish given their market focus.
Nobody here is making any offical decsions on who represents Christianity as you want to put it, there are simply those who feel they need to support the decsions being made by RZMI and various publishers and authors about what should be done in this situaiton. Other than the choosing whether or not to purchase resources with Ravi's name attached to them no one in this fourm has any power to do what you are suggesting. You are the one being intollerant at this point in time of those who respect God's Word has clear standards along with examples, that sin has it consequence, even where there is repentance and forgiveness and that leaders are to be held at a higher standard.
Nobody here thinks they are better than Ravi, and no less prone to sin, we are all greived by the situation but seeking to honor God's name in the process. If you think sin, even confessed sin, should not have consequences, even confessed sin, paritcularly leaders, then your problem is with God and you need to take it up with him rather than making baseless claims about the motivations and actions of your fellow Christians. It is his Holiness and Mercy that brings about salvation through judgement.
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Just to clarify, I did a copy/paste of what I posted on social media (which I noted) after reading various conversations that people were talking past each other either in ignorance or arrogance on social media. It was not directed at a particular comment on this thread, though some of the direction this was taking in what seems to be insensitivity to the situation prompted me to post. The primary directive of all of scripture is agape love for each other walked out. Just a reminder. Those trying to walk that out to the best of their ability in a horrible situation deserve respect at the least. God bless everyone. Prayers going up for all in Jesus' name.
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