What did y'all buy from the Wipf & Stock sale? I'd get another two or three books if there are any good suggestions.
This is what I've bought in this (and the previous two) sales:
The Kalām Cosmological Argument | Logos Bible Software
Did Jesus Rise from the Dead? The Resurrection Debate | Logos Bible Software
The Bible in Its World: The Bible and Archaeology Today | Logos Bible Software
Beyond the River Chebar: Studies in Kingship and Eschatology in the Book of Ezekiel | Logos Bible Software
By the River Chebar: Historical, Literary, and Theological Studies in the Book of Ezekiel | Logos Bible Software
Beyond Death: Exploring the Evidence for Immortality | Logos Bible Software
The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment, 3rd ed. | Logos Bible Software
[Y]
This time I've picked up:
https://www.logos.com/product/171131/puzzling-passages-in-paul-forty-conundrums-calmly-considered
https://www.logos.com/product/186392/acts-2-vols
https://www.logos.com/product/192104/galatians
https://www.logos.com/product/186293/the-epistles-of-john
https://www.logos.com/product/52793/god-heaven-and-har-magedon-a-covenantal-tale-of-cosmos-and-telos
This is the 3rd Wipf and Stock sale. I'm tempted to try the Cyril Barber books sometime, but keep finding other books that interest me. I may wait for the next Wipf and Stock sale though, as it does appear to come around every 15-18 months.
Thanks Paul, I added the Paul book.
Anyone have any thoughts on these?
https://www.logos.com/product/177214/malachi-gods-unchanging-love https://www.logos.com/product/51512/the-rabbinic-traditions-about-the-pharisees-before-70-ad
Anyone have any thoughts on these? https://www.logos.com/product/177214/malachi-gods-unchanging-love https://www.logos.com/product/51512/the-rabbinic-traditions-about-the-pharisees-before-70-ad
The first one is Walter K’s reworded commentary on Malachi in the Preacher’s Commentary Series (They’re virtually the same).
The second one, I’d like to know too. It looks interesting 🤔 Maybe someone can pitch in 👍😁👌
DAL
What did y'all buy from the Wipf & Stock sale? I'd get another two or three books if there are any good suggestions. This is what I've bought in this (and the previous two) sales: Beyond Death: Exploring the Evidence for Immortality | Logos Bible Software The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment, 3rd ed. | Logos Bible Software
Thanks for the suggesting these two above. I've added them to my library.
This time I've picked up: https://www.logos.com/product/171131/puzzling-passages-in-paul-forty-conundrums-calmly-considered
Purchased at your suggestion. Thanks.
Ah yes, that looks interesting. Three volumes for the price of one. Any comment would be appreciated.
The second one, I’d like to know too. It looks interesting 🤔 Maybe someone can pitch in 👍😁👌 Ah yes, that looks interesting. Three volumes for the price of one. Any comment would be appreciated.
Well, for $4.99 I can’t go wrong, so I got it 👍😁👌 Sample pages might help (hint, hint...).
What did y'all buy from the Wipf & Stock sale?
Check this thread from the previous sale: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/187322.aspx
There's probably also one from the time before that.
My top pick, what I posted there:
[quote]The last sale I picked up Biblical Eschatology by Jonathan Menn, and I just finished reading it recently. It was surprisingly good. Like, really really good. I'm going to use it whenever I next write or teach on the subject.
This is a reprint of Neusner's work originally published by Brill in 1971. It was considered groundbreaking work on the Pharisees when written (and still is by many accounts).
I found an interesting article by Neusner defending his view of the Pharisees against E.P. Sanders in Bulletin for Biblical Research, V2 in my Logos library. https://ref.ly/logosres/gs-bbrch-02?ref=Page.p+143
This summary is from JETS:
Neusner, Jacob. The Rabbinic Traditions about the Pharisees before 70. 3 vols. Leiden: Brill, 1971. An enormously helpful source book with commentary and summary analysis (reprints from University of South Florida and Wipf & Stock).
David W. Chapman, “Jewish Intertestamental And Early Rabbinic Literature: An Annotated Bibliographic Resource Updated (Part 1),” Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 55 55, no. 2 (2012): 238.
To get an idea of how important Neusner's work in this area is one could peruse https://ref.ly/logosres/gs-tynbul-43?ref=Page.p+353
It would seem to be well worth $4.99.
How can you go wrong on 3 vols. , 1248 pages, by Jacob Neusner, for $4.99, with a 30 day money back guarantee? It's part of his 99 vol. bundle.
https://www.logos.com/product/51512/the-rabbinic-traditions-about-the-pharisees-before-70-ad
How can you go wrong on 3 vols. , 1248 pages, by Jacob Neusner, for $4.99, with a 30 day money back guarantee? It's part of his 99 vol. bundle. https://www.logos.com/product/51512/the-rabbinic-traditions-about-the-pharisees-before-70-ad
Buy it before they split them in three and sell them for $4.99 each 😂😂😂 Or it’s a mistake and then they remove it from the sale 😂😂😂
Four very convincing arguments to grab it rather sooner than later.
Got it.
Looking at this: James Leo Garrett Jr.’s two-volume Systematic Theology. Any experience or opinions on it?
I see that I have it but have never opened it. I got it as part of L9 Baptist Starter. That might be an even cheaper way to get it than the W & S sale:
https://www.logos.com/product/195391/logos-9-baptist-starter
From Grudem's [APPENDIX 2 Annotated Bibliography of Evangelical Systematic Theologies]
Garret, James Leo. Systematic Theology: Biblical, Historical, Evangelical. 2 vols. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1990, 1995. Garret was a professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is Baptistic and evangelical in his convictions, yet he gives much more space to representing different positions clearly than to arguing for his position. With 1,530 total pages, these volumes are an amazingly rich resource for historical, bibliographical, and biblical data on each doctrine treated.
Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, Second Edition., (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Academic, 2020), 1492.
Thanks Sean. I don't see it there. But it's a YMMV thing; I don't find the starter package good value for me.
I see that I have it but have never opened it. I got it as part of L9 Baptist Starter. That might be an even cheaper way to get it than the W & S sale: https://www.logos.com/product/195391/logos-9-baptist-starter
Thank you! Will take a closer look at them.
From Grudem's [APPENDIX 2 Annotated Bibliography of Evangelical Systematic Theologies] Garret, James Leo. Systematic Theology: Biblical, Historical, Evangelical. 2 vols. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1990, 1995. Garret was a professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is Baptistic and evangelical in his convictions, yet he gives much more space to representing different positions clearly than to arguing for his position. With 1,530 total pages, these volumes are an amazingly rich resource for historical, bibliographical, and biblical data on each doctrine treated. Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, Second Edition., (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Academic, 2020), 1492.
Here is a sample on an often heated topic. He doesn't really side with one or the other. I like these books but I don't use them often because they are long. But he does cover the topics very well from what I can tell and have seen.
3. Ordination and Service of Women as Pastors?131
Whether women should exercise the pastoral functions as ordained persons became a controverted issue during the last decades of the twentieth century. Although Pentecostal churches from the beginning of the century had had women serving as pastors,132 for most mainline Protestant denominations formal action was necessary to make possible such ministry by women. The Church of England having taken such a step in 1992,133 most Protestants regard the issue as settled. On the other hand, in the Roman Catholic Church,134 the Southern Baptist Convention,135 the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and other church bodies the issue remains.136
As the question of women as pastors was being raised, studies were made of the roles of women during the New Testament era and the patristic age.137 The roles of women in early Christianity included those of widows, virgins, prophetesses, deaconesses, married women, and martyrs, but the recent studies have agreed that the clerical priesthood, once it had been established, did not include women.138
The principal arguments against the ordination of women to pastoral ministry are rooted in certain Pauline texts. First, since Paul understood on the basis of Gen. 2 that in creation woman came from man and was created for man (1 Cor. 11:12, 9), men exercise a headship over women but under Christ (1 Cor. 11:3). Although the context pertains to the need for women in Corinth to have their heads covered, some take the implicit female subordination as forbidding the service of women as pastors/preachers. The effectiveness of such an argument is challenged by the fact that Paul seems to approve in the same passage of women’s prophesying and praying with covered head (1 Cor. 11:5).139 Second, since it was Eve and not Adam who first yielded to temptation and was deceived by the serpent, then, according to the Pauline admonition, a woman must “learn in silence” rather than “teach” (didaskein) or “have authority” (RSV, TEV) (authentein) “over a man” (NIV) (1 Tim. 2:11–14).140 Third, Paul specifically admonished the women, presumably married women, in the church at Corinth—“as in all churches of the saints” (KJV)—to “keep quiet (sigatōsin) in the church meetings” (TEV), for to speak is “disgraceful” (aischron), and instead “if there is something they want to know, they can ask their own husbands at home” (1 Cor. 14:33b–35, NEB).141 Fourth, the Aaronic priesthood and the Levites were all males, and the Twelve chosen by Jesus were all males; hence there is no biblical precedent for women pastors, and the innovation should be rejected.142 Fifth, implicit in the opposition to women’s ordination to pastoral ministry, if not explicit, Paul King Jewett alleged, is a view of the masculinity of God. Masculine language is applied to God in the Bible, and the incarnation involved the man Jesus as male; hence ministers who as God’s representatives lead churches should be male human beings.143 Sixth, “the husband of one wife” (1 Tim. 3:2, KJV, RSV) has been cited.
The principal arguments for the ordination of women to pastoral ministry are based more on what David S. Dockery has called “the descriptive passages” in the New Testament relative to this subject rather than on “the didactic passages.”144 First, women had significant leadership or ministry roles in both the Old and the New Testaments. Two of the books of the Old Testament “are named for the women whose story they tell—Ruth and Esther.”145 Four women are called “prophetess” in the Old Testament: Miriam (Exod. 15:20), Deborah (Judg. 4:4), Huldah (2 Kings 22:14), and Noadiah (Neh. 6:14).146 The Talmud also refers to Sarah, Hannah, Abigail, and Esther as “prophetesses.”147 Prophetess “is the only ministerial function explicitly recognised for women in the Old Testament.”148 Athaliah was queen of Judah (2 Kings 11:3, 20; 2 Chr. 22:11, 12).
Three women were granted theophanies—Hagar [Gen. 16:7; 21:17], Sarah [Gen. 18:9], and Manoah’s wife [Judg. 13:3–5, 9, 22]. Women, as well as men, took the vows of a Nazarite and assisted in offering the sacrifice [Num. 6:2, 13–21]. Women were permitted to minister at the door of the sanctuary [Exod. 38:8; 1 Sam. 2:22]. They also took part in the great choirs and processionals of the Temple [Ps. 68:25; Ezra 2:65; Neh. 7:67; 1 Chr. 25:5–7].149
Joel anticipated that women as well as men would prophesy when the Spirit of the Lord would be poured out (2:28–29).
In the New Testament Anna, “still belonging to the old economy of salvation,”150 is called a “prophetess” (Luke 2:36). Certain women followed Jesus, “along with the Twelve,” contributing to the support of the entire group (Luke 8:1–3). Women were present at the time of Jesus’ death (Mark 15:40–41 and par.) and his burial (Mark 15:47 and par.) and “found the empty tomb …, met the resurrected Christ or his angel, and announced the news to his unbelieving disciples” (Mark 16:1–11; Matt. 28:1–10; Luke 24:1–11; John 20:1–2, 11–18).151 The four unmarried daughters of Philip the evangelist “prophesied” (Acts 21:9, RSV). Phoebe is identified as “a diakonos of the church at Cenchreae,” the harbor for Corinth, and as “a helper (prostatis) of many” and of Paul “as well” (Rom. 16:1–2, RSV). Some have taken diakonos to mean servant or minister in general, whereas others have taken it to mean deaconess. Perhaps Albrecht Oepke was correct in stating: “The description of Phoebe as the diakonos of the church at Cenchrea indicates the point where the original charisma is becoming an office.”152 Prisca (Priscilla) and her husband were called by Paul “fellow workers” (synergous) (Rom. 16:3), and Euodia and Syntyche were numbered among Paul’s “fellow workers” (Phil. 4:2–3). Mention has already been made of the company of widows.153
Second, “the neither male nor female” of Gal. 3:28 has been taken as supportive of the ordination and service of women as pastors. For E. Margaret Howe, the text is “the most profound New Testament insight regarding the respective status of men and women in the Christian community,” showing that the “message of Christ … was the great equalizer.”154 According to Alvera Mickelsen, the text means:
Men and women are to preach. Men and women are to make disciples. They are to minister with the gifts of the Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit.… The Galatians had lost sight of this freedom.155
For Walter Lewis Liefeld (1927–), Gal. 3:28 provides “a contrast to the inferior status usually given women in Paul’s day.” It “does apply to social relationships within the church and not merely to the spiritual realm of soteriology,” but “it does not mean that all distinctions are obliterated.”156
Third, since the Holy Spirit is sovereign in bestowing spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12:11), the Spirit is free to bestow gifts on and call women to the preaching-pastoral ministry. Hence the contemporary church should be ready and willing to acknowledge such.157 Moreover, churches which emphasize the necessity for an inner or divine call for ministry with respect to men cannot consistently ignore or reject the claims of women to have received such. Fourth, both in earlier times and today women have served effectively as pastors.158 Fifth, for women to be excluded from the exercise of the preaching/pastoral ministry means that vast gifts and resources will be unused in the churches.159
Mediating positions on the ordination and service of women as pastors have been set forth. For example, Susan T. Foh in a Presbyterian context has concluded that, whereas women cannot serve as elders (that is, those who have the teaching-ruling office), they may assist in worship services, and serve as Sunday School teachers and deacons.160 Walter Liefeld, interpreting the laying on of hands in the New Testament to mean induction to service rather than bestowal of authority over others and taking 1 Tim. 2:12 as a prohibition of the use of excessive authority, sought to remove hindrances “to the normal ministries of women.”161
131 Arguments for and against such were stated as early as 1929: Charles Earle Raven (1885–1964), Women and the Ministry (New York: Doubleday, Doran), pp. 77–114. The author has received bibliographical assistance from C. W. Brister.
132 Hollenweger, The Pentecostals, pp. 486–89. Among Quakers and in the nineteenth-century Holiness movement in the United States, women exercised leadership roles, but ordination was not involved. Robert G. Clouse, “Introduction,” to Bonnidell Clouse and Robert G. Clouse, eds., Women in Ministry: Four Views (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1989), pp. 12–13, 17–18.
133 Trevor Barnes, “Church of England Says Yes to Women Priests,” Christianity Today, 14 December 1992, p. 52.
134 Haye van der Meer, S. J., Women Priests in the Catholic Church? A Theological-Historical Investigation, trans. Arlene Swidler and Leonard Swidler (Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1973); Carroll Stuhlmueller, ed., Women and Priesthood: Future Directions (Collegeville, Minn.: Liturgical Press, 1978).
135 The first woman to be ordained for pastoral ministry in a Southern Baptist church was Addie Davis in August 1964, according to Harry Leon McBeth, “The Ordination of Women,” Review and Expositor 78 (Fall 1981): 515, 522.
136 For the official statements of the various denominations on the issue of women as pastors or priests, see J. Gordon Melton and Gary L. Ward, eds., The Churches Speak on Women’s Ordination: Official Statements from Religious Bodies and Ecumenical Organizations (Detroit: Gale Research Inc., 1991). According to the Baptist Faith and Message Statement adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in 2000, art. 6, “While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture” (The Baptist Faith and Message: A Statement Adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention, June 14, 2000 [Nashville: LifeWay Christian Resources of the SBC, 2000], p. 13).
137 Earlier studies included Lina Eckenstein (?–1931), The Women of Early Christianity, rev. by Celia Roscoe (London: Faith Press, n. d.), and Charles C. Ryrie, The Place of Women in the Church (New York: Macmillan, 1958). Then came Gryson, The Ministry of Women in the Early Church; Jean Laporte (1924– ), The Role of Women in Early Christianity, Studies in Women and Religion, vol. 7 (Lewiston, N. Y.: Edwin Mellen Press, 1982); and Elizabeth Ann Clark (1938– ), Women in the Early Church, Message of the Fathers of the Church, vol. 13 (Wilmington, Del.: Michael Glazier, Inc., 1983). A more virulent feminist historical revisionism characterized Susanne Heine (1942– ), Women and Early Christianity: Are the Feminist Scholars Right?, trans. John Bowden (London: SCM Press, 1987).
138 Gryson, The Ministry of Women in the Early Church, pp. 109, 112; Laporte, The Role of Women in Early Christianity, pp. 130–32. According to Gryson, “The ultimate reason for the absence of women from the Christian priesthood is found in their absence from the Elders of the Synagogue” (p. 131).
139 Russell Clifford Frederick Prohl (1907–60), Woman in the Church: A Study of Woman’s Place in Building the Kingdom (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1957), pp. 24–30; Margaret Eleanor Thrall, The Ordination of Women to the Priesthood: A Study of the Biblical Evidence (London: SCM Press, 1958), pp. 66–76; Ryrie, The Place of Women in the Church, pp. 71–74; Marga Bührig, “The Question of the Ordination of Women in the Light of Some New Testament Texts,” in Concerning the Ordination of Women (Geneva: World Council of Churches, 1964), pp. 45–47; van der Meer, Women Priests in the Catholic Church?, pp. 15–20; John Saward, The Case against the Ordination of Women (3d rev. ed.: London: Church Literature Association, 1978), pp. 7–8; Susan T. Foh, Women and the Word of God: A Response to Biblical Feminism (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), pp. 100–116; E. Margaret Howe, Women and Church Leadership (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1982), pp. 58–63; George W. Reid, The Ordination of Women (n.p.p.: Biblical Research Institute, 1985), pp. 14–15; David S. Dockery, “The Role of Women in Worship and Ministry: Some Hermeneutical Questions,” Criswell Theological Journal 1 (Spring 1987): 367–69; Robert Duncan Culver (1916– ), “A Traditional View: Let Your Women Keep Silence,” in Clouse and Clouse, eds., Women in Ministry: Four Views, pp. 27–32; Susan T. Foh, “A Male Leadership View: The Head of the Woman Is the Man,” in ibid., pp. 85–87; Alvera Mickelsen, “An Egalitarian View: There Is Neither Male Nor Female in Christ,” in ibid., pp. 192–98.
RSV Revised Standard Version
NIV New International Version
140 Prohl, Woman in the Church, pp. 31–35; Ryrie, The Place of Women in the Church, pp. 78–80; Bührig, “The Question of the Ordination of Women,” pp. 51–55; van der Meer, Women Priests in the Catholic Church?, pp. 23–25; Howe, Women and Church Leadership, pp. 45–53; Reid, The Ordination of Women, p. 18; Paul King Jewett, The Ordination of Women: An Essay on the Office of Christian Ministry (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1980), pp. 60, 65; Dockery, “The Role of Women in Worship and Ministry,” pp. 370–73; Culver, “A Traditional View,” pp. 34–37; Foh, “A Male Leadership View,” pp. 80–84; Mickelson, “An Egalitarian View,” pp. 199–204. According to Foh, Women and the Word of God, pp. 122–28, 238–40, this text is the only “sufficient argument against women’s ordination.” But Sharon Hodgin Gritz (1954– ), Paul, Women Teachers, and the Mother Goddess at Ephesus: A Study of 1 Timothy 2:9–15 in Light of the Religious and Cultural Milieu of the First Century (Lanham, Md.: University Press of America, 1991), pp. 157–58, has concluded that the teaching of this text “resulted from the particular situation in the primitive Ephesian church, a situation complicated by pagan influences from the beliefs and practices of the cult of the Mother Goddess Artemis in Ephesus which had infiltrated the church through false teachers” but that this text is not so “ ‘culturally bound’ ” as to be inapplicable today. Rather it suggests “that marriage qualifies a married woman’s ministry.”
KJV King James Version
NEB New English Bible
141 Prohl, Woman in the Church, pp. 31–35; Ryrie, The Place of Women in the Church, pp. 74–78; Bührig, “The Question of the Ordination of Women,” pp. 47–48; van der Meer, Women Priests in the Catholic Church?, pp. 20–23; Jewett, The Ordination of Women, pp. 64, 67; Foh, Women and the Word of God, pp. 117–21; Howe, Women and Church Leadership, pp. 58–63; Reid, The Ordination of Women, pp. 15–17; Dockery, “The Role of Women in Worship and Ministry,” pp. 369–70; Culver, “A Traditional View, pp. 32–34; Foh, “A Male Leadership View,” pp. 84–85; Mickelsen, “An Egalitarian View,” pp. 198–99.
142 Saward, The Case against the Ordination of Women, pp. 14–15; Stanley Hamilton Atkins (1912– ), “The Theological Case against Women’s Ordination,” in Michael P. Hamilton and Nancy S. Montgomery, eds., The Ordination of Women: Pro and Con (New York: Morehouse-Barlow Co., 1975), pp. 19, 22–24; van der Meer, Women Priests in the Catholic Church?, pp. 10–15; Jewett, The Ordination of Women, pp. 32–35.
143 Jewett, The Ordination of Women, pp. 26–35. Jewett was citing and refuting C. S. Lewis, “Priestesses in the Church?” in God in the Dock: Essays on Theology and Ethics, ed. Walter Hooper (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1970), pp. 234–39; and Eric Lionel Mascall (1905– ), “Women and the Priesthood of the Church,” in Michael Bruce and Gervase E. Duffield, eds., Why Not! Priesthood and the Ministry of Women (Appleford, U. K.: Marcham Manor Press, 1972), pp. 111–14.
144 “The Role of Women in Worship and Ministry,” pp. 365–75.
145 Prohl, Woman in the Church, p. 65.
146 Andre Dumas (1918– ), “Biblical Anthropology and the Participation of Women in the Ministry of the Church,” in Concerning the Ordination of Women, p. 19.
147 Megilloth 14a, in Morris Adler, The World of the Talmud (2d ed.: New York: Schocken Books, 1963), p. 123.
148 Dumas, “Biblical Anthropology and the Participation of Women in the Ministry of the Church,” p. 19.
149 Prohl, Woman in the Church, pp. 65–66.
150 Gryson, The Ministry of Women in the Early Church, p. 1.
151 Ibid., p. 2.
152 “gynē,” in Gerhard Kittel, ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 1:787.
153 See above, II, C, 3.
154Women and Church Leadership, p. 63.
155 “An Egalitarian View,” p. 205.
156 “A Plural Ministry View: Your Sons and Your Daughters Shall Prophesy,” in Clouse and Clouse, eds., Women in Ministry: Four Views, p. 139. The “soteriology only” view has been taken by Foh, Women and the Word of God, pp. 140–43, who has interpreted the text to refer to “the Christian’s relation to God” and “oneness in Christ.”
157 Marianne Hoffman Micks (1923– ), “The Theological Case for Women’s Ordination,” in Hamilton and Montgomery, eds., The Ordination of Women: Pro and Con, pp. 11–14.
158 Mickelsen, “An Egalitarian View,” pp. 174–77.
159 Prohl, Woman in the Church, pp. 79–80; Letha Dawson Scanzoni (1935– ) and Nancy Ann Hardesty (1941– ), All We’re Meant to Be: A Biblical Approach to Women’s Liberation (Waco, Tex.: Word Books, 1975), pp. 177–81. Foh, Women and the Word of God, pp. 244–45, has answered this argument.
160 “A Male Leadership View,” pp. 94–102.
161 “A Plural Ministry View,” pp. 144–51. For a review of the practical, especially attitudinal, problems attendant on the assumption of the pastoral role by women, see Oren John Eldred (1928– ), Women Pastors: If God Calls, Why Not the Church? (Valley Forge, Pa.: Judson Press, 1981).
James Leo Garrett Jr., Systematic Theology: Biblical, Historical, and Evangelical, Second Edition., vol. 2 (Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock, 2014), 627–633.
Thanks Mattillo. Helpful excerpt.
