Greek diminutive form question

danwdoo

Hello.
I heard someone state that the Greek word for the loaves in John 6:9 was a diminutive form of the noun meaning they were very small. This got my detective wheels turning about how I might find/verify something like that in Logos. I have no real experience with Greek, but I have the super-powerful Logos 9 and the full features set (Connect). I hoped there was some original language tool or resource that would help answer this and give me a great learning experience.

I checked some commentaries and found UBS John states the word for boy in verse 9 is a double diminutive, but it makes no mention of the loaves being so. This is ok as I was really hoping to find a way to answer this with language tools anyway.

I selected MSS form in the interlinear (ἄρτους) and looked around for what resources and tools were available in the selection tool. My two choices were the 2 Lexham analytical lexicons (Greek New Testament & Septuagint). Both had only minimal entries that listed possible forms, but no information other than a reference to NAPM(29), which was not an active link to anything so no luck there.

So my question is, if I wanted to answer such a question, how would I go about doing so using Logos language tools? Or is this the type of question that I just need one or more resources to answer (BDAG?), or do I already have tools that can answer this if I only knew how to use them. Inquiring minds want to know! I really want to learn more about the original language tools in Logos so I thought this would be a great question to start with.

Thanks!

David Thomas

Pais is the lemma meaning child (perhaps this is the first indication of being "diminutive")

from BDAG: [using BDAG lookup in right-click menu]

παῖς, παιδός, ὁ or ἡ (Hom. et al.) child.

① a young pers. normally below the age of puberty, w. focus on age rather than social status, boy, youth 
② one’s own immediate offspring, child as ‘son’ or ‘daughter’
③ one who is committed in total obedience to another, slave, servant

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 750.

Paidarion is the lemma in John 6:9 (right click in a Reverse Interlinear) this is noted in BDAG as a dimutive of pais.

παιδάριον, ου, τό (παῖς; in a variety of senses Aristoph., Pla. et al.; ins, pap, LXX, TestSol; TestAbr B 2 p. 107, 2 [Stone p. 62]; JosAs; Jos., Ant. 17, 13) dim. of παῖς.

① child 
② young slave 

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 748.

artos is the lemma for loaves (Accusative, Plural)

BDAG has no mention of the lemma being diminutive of any other word.

ἄρτος, ου, ὁ (Hom.+)

① a baked product produced fr. a cereal grain, bread also loaf of bread
ⓐ gener. (Did., Gen. 190, 25) Mt 4:4 (Dt 8:3); 14:17, 19; 15:26, 33f; 16:8ff; Mk 6:38, 44, 52 (QQuesnell, The Mind of Mark, ’69); 7:27; 8:4ff, 14 (JManek, NovT 7, ’64, 10–14), 16f; Lk 4:4 (Dt 8:3); 9:13; 11:5; J 6:5, 23, 26; 21:9; 2 Cor 9:10 (Is 55:10). Opp. λίθος Mt 4:3 and Lk 4:3 (Ps.-Clem., Hom. 2, 32 Simon Mag. ἐκ λίθων ἄρτους ποιεῖ); Mt 7:9; Lk 11:11 v.l. W. water (Dt 9:9, 18; Sir 29:21; Hos 2:7) Hs 5, 3, 7. The father of the household opened a meal (s. Billerb. IV 620ff) by taking a loaf of bread, giving thanks, breaking it, and distributing it: λαμβάνειν τὸν ἄ., (κατα)κλάσαι τὸν ἄ. (Jer 16:7) Mt 14:19; 15:36; Mk 6:41; 8:19; Lk 9:16; 24:30; J 6:11; 21:13; Ac 20:11; 27:35. Cp. Lk 24:35; Ac 2:42, 46; 20:7. Usu. taken along on journeys Mk 6:8; Lk 9:3; cp. Mt 16:5, 7; Mk 8:14. W. gen. of price διακοσίων δηναρίων ἄρτοι J 6:7; Mk 6:37. ἄρτοι κρίθινοι (Judg 7:13; 4 Km 4:42) loaves of barley bread J 6:9, 13. The martyr’s body in the fire is compared to baking bread MPol 15:2.—Dalman, Arbeit IV: Brot, Öl u. Wein ’35.
ⓑ of a bread-offering ἄρτοι τῆς προθέσεως (Ex 40:23; 1 Km 21:7; 1 Ch 9:32; 23:29; 2 Ch 4:19; cp. 2 Ch 13:11; 2 Macc 10:3; Dssm. B 155f [BS 157]. Cp. OGI 56, 73; UPZ 149, 21 [III B.C.] πρόθεσις τ. ἄρτων in a temple ln. 31) consecrated bread (Billerb. III 719–33) Mt 12:4; Mk 2:26; Lk 6:4; Hb 9:2.—S. πρόθεσις.
ⓒ of the bread of the eucharist, which likew. was broken after giving thanks, and then eaten (Orig., C. Cels. 8, 33, 25) Mt 26:26; Mk 14:22; Lk 22:19; perh. Ac 2:42, 46; 20:7; 1 Cor 10:16f (the acc. τὸν ἄρτον vs. 16 is by attraction to the rel. ὅν; cp. Gen 31:16); 11:23, 26ff; D 14:1; IEph 20:2; AcPl Ha 4, 4 (s. κλάω, κατακλάω, εὐχαριστέω 2, εὐχαριστία 3 and Aberciusins. 16.—Diog. L. 8, 35: acc. to Pythagoras the εἷς ἄρτος [1 Cor 10:17] has served as a symbol of the union of the φίλοι from time immemorial to the present. Partaking of the same bread and wine [τ. αὐτὸν ἄρτον, οἶνον] as proof of the most intimate communion: Theodor. Prodr. 8, 400ff H.; Herodas 4, 93f: in the temple of Asclepius those who offer a sacrifice—in this case women—receive consecrated bread called ὑγιίη [ὑγίεια] to eat; Athen. 3, 115a ὑγίεια καλεῖται ἡ διδομένη ἐν ταῖς θυσίαις μᾶζα ἵνα ἀπογεύσωνται=the barley-cake that is given everyone to taste at the sacrifices is called Health; Anecd. Gr. 313, 13).—PdeBoer, Divine Bread, Studies in the Rel. of Anc. Israel, ’72, 27–36. S. καλάσις 2.
② any kind of food or nourishment, food gener. (since bread is the most important food; cp. לֶחֶם e.g. Is 65:25; Am 8:11; 4 [6] Esdr [POxy 1010]) περισσεύεσθαι ἄρτων have more than enough bread, i.e. plenty to eat Lk 15:17 (cp. Pr 20:13). διαθρύπτειν πεινῶσι τὸν ἄ. break bread for the hungry, i.e. give them someth. to eat B 3:3, cp. 5 (Is 58:7, 10). Hence ἄ. ἐσθίειν eat, dine, eat a meal (Gen 37:25; 2 Km 12:20; Eccl 9:7; Orig., C. Cels 7, 28, 43; cp. Did., Gen. 190, 12) Mt 15:2; Mk 3:20; 7:2, 5; Lk 14:1. δωρεὰν ἄ. φαγεῖν παρά τινος eat someone’s bread without paying 2 Th 3:8. Opp. τὸν ἑαυτοῦ ἄρτον ἐσθίειν vs. 12. Of an ascetic way of life μὴ ἐσθίων ἄρτον μήτε πίνων οἶνον neither eating bread nor drinking wine, i.e. fasting Lk 7:33 (cp. 1 Esdr 9:2). On ἄ. ἐπιούσιος Mt 6:11; Lk 11:3; D 8:2 s. ἐπιούσιος.—τρώγειν τινὸς τὸν ἄ. be the guest of someone J 13:18 (cp. Ps 40:10). Since according to a concept widespread among Israelites and gentiles, eternal bliss was to be enjoyed in the form of a banquet, φαγεῖν ἄ. ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ θεοῦ=share eternal bliss, or salvation Lk 14:15.—In J ἄ. ἐκ τ. οὐρανοῦ (after Ps 77:24; cp. Ex 16:4; 2 Esdr 19:15; Ps 104:40; Wsd 16:20; SibOr Fgm. 3, 49) is Christ and his body in the Eucharist J 6:31ff, 41, 50, 58 or simply Christ himself. For this ἄ. τῆς ζωῆς (JosAs 8:5; 15:4) vs. 35, 48; ὁ ἄ. ὁ ζῶν vs. 51. Sim. ἄ. τ. θεοῦ IEph 5:2; IRo 7:3; ἄ. τ. Χριστοῦ 4:1.—BGärtner, J 6 and the Jewish Passover: ConNeot 17, ’59; GVermes, MBlack Festschr., ’69, 256–63.
③ means of support, support, livelihood τὸν ἄ. λαμβάνειν take his bread (i.e. support) D 11:6 (difft. Orig., C. Cels. 2, 68, 20: ‘take bread [from someone’s hand]’).
④ reward for labor, reward, proceeds λαμβάνειν τὸν ἄ. τοῦ ἔργου receive the reward of (one’s) labor 1 Cl 34:1.—EBattaglia, ‘Artos’, il lessico della panificazione nei paperi greci ’89.—B. 357. DELG. EDNT. M-M. TW.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 136.

Louw-Nida DOES mention that ancient loaves were considerably smaller than present-day loaves.

5.8 ἄρτοςa, ου m: a relatively small and generally round loaf of bread (considerably smaller than present-day typical loaves of bread and thus more like ‘rolls’ or ‘buns’)—‘loaf of bread.’ οὐκ ἔχομεν ὧδε εἰ μὴ πέντε ἄρτους ‘we have here only five loaves of bread’ Mt 14:17.

Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 49.

Note: L-N places this word for loaf as entry number 8 in a list of 22 food items. I observe that there is no lemma for a large loaf, therefore this is not a diminutive lexically, it would only be smaller according to historical culture and bread-making customs of that time. My Conclusion after consulting L9 tools: the 5 "loaves" of John 6:9 would resemble 5 "buns" today because 1-2 lb loaves were not common in 1st century.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1169385#Comment_1169385

Paidarion is the lemma in John 6:9 (right click in a Reverse Interlinear) this is noted in BDAG as a dimutive of pais.

παιδάριον, ου, τό (παῖς; in a variety of senses Aristoph., Pla. et al.; ins, pap, LXX, TestSol; TestAbr B 2 p. 107, 2 [Stone p. 62]; JosAs; Jos., Ant. 17, 13) dim. of παῖς.

Which means you can search for dim NEAR παῖς in your lexicons, particularly if you have LSJ or BDAG (other lexicons may not use "dim.").

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

I heard someone state that the Greek word for the loaves in John 6:9 was a diminutive form of the noun meaning they were very small.

Search idea is: ((loaves OR ἄρτους OR ἄρτος) WITHIN 11 WORDS diminutive) OR {Headword ἄρτος}

Headword uses Lemma form ἄρτος (manuscript is ἄρτους)

Etymological Dictionary of Greek, Volumes 1 & 2

Keep Smiling [:D]

danwdoo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1169536#Comment_1169536

Thanks all for the input. So I guess what I'm seeing here is this is not a question to be answered with the built in original language tools (without having Greek knowledge), but rather a resource such as the BDAG Lexicon. Would be a nice feature if the word studies offered more of this type of detailed usage information in the reports (even if needed to buy additional resources to feed it, which I'm perfectly willing to do!)

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1169545#Comment_1169545

So I guess what I'm seeing here is this is not a question to be answered with the built in original language tools (without having Greek knowledge)

Correct. There is a lot of "grammar" knowledge that is assumed, even in Grammar resources (e.g. diminutive, substantive, conjugate), let alone explicitly catered for in Logos. If somebody provides a description and example, I can usually create a search, though!