Judges 19 all I can do is shake my head
Judges 19 is crazy a man comes to stay the night then the town knocks on the door the man of the house offers his daughter and concubine. They took the concubine and had their way with her until she died. Then the master cut her up into 12 pieces and sent her throughout the land of Isreal.
WHAT THE HECK??? This is just insane.
Comments
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Randall Lind said:
Judges 19 is crazy a man comes to stay the night then the town knocks on the door the man of the house offers his daughter and concubine. They took the concubine and had their way with her until she died. Then the master cut her up into 12 pieces and sent her throughout the land of Isreal.
WHAT THE HECK??? This is just insane.
Agreed, Randall. Your emotional reaction is completely appropriate.
So the question to ask is, "Why is the story being told this way? What is the author saying? Why is he stirring us up like this?"
Among the commentaries that will help you answer that question are:
- Webb, Barry G. The Book of Judges. NICOT (Eerdmans, 2012).
- Beldman, David J. H. Deserting the King: The Book of Judges. Transformative Word. (Lexham Press, 2017).
- Chisholm, Robert B., Jr. A Commentary on Judges and Ruth. Kregel Exegetical Library (Kregel Academic, 2013).
And look for clues in the way the story is being told, e.g.:
- The first verse of Judges 19 (compare the last phrase of the book).
- Why am I told 23 times that this happened at Gibeah? Who came from there?
Hope that helps you to read the story well. Your question is crucial to understanding Judges as a whole.
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Randall Lind said:
Judges 19 is crazy a man comes to stay the night then the town knocks on the door the man of the house offers his daughter and concubine. They took the concubine and had their way with her until she died. Then the master cut her up into 12 pieces and sent her throughout the land of Isreal.
WHAT THE HECK??? This is just insane.
So what is your question related to Faithlife products and their use?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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nothing that why I posted in this group. Maybe they need a group to talk about the bible. I am reading the whole bible for first time and when I got to this chapter it just seems odd to me.
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Randall Lind said:
nothing that why I posted in this group. Maybe they need a group to talk about the bible. I am reading the whole bible for first time and when I got to this chapter it just seems odd to me.
Randall are you using any resource to help as you read through the bible?
I heartily recommend Gordon Fee's How to Read the Bible Book by Book: https://www.logos.com/product/5439/how-to-read-the-bible-book-by-book
For each book, it offers an overview, specific advice for how to read the book, and then a simple walk-though. So for the section on Judges 17:1-21:25 it says:
Note how this conclusion is carefully crafted around the phrase, “In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as [they] saw fit [what was right in their own eyes]” (17:6; 21:25; cf. 18:1; 19:1). With these words the narrator gives you the perspective from which the whole story has been told: Israel is in disarray; it has no central leadership—and no accepted central sanctuary, as had been commanded in Deuteronomy.
Thus, the first episode (ch. 17) in the first story illustrates Israel’s syncretism (Micah’s mother consecrates her silver to Yahweh for her son to make an idol), while the second (ch. 18) illustrates both the Danite context out of which Samson came and the unsettled conditions in Israel due to the failure of conquest with which the book began. Both episodes illustrate the failure of true worship in Israel.
The gruesome nature of the second story (chs. 19–21) illustrates both the depth of Israel’s remembered moral decay (see Hos 9:9–10) and the reality that she teeters regularly on the brink of intertribal war. Israel needs God’s appointed king.
Gordon D. Fee and Douglas K. Stuart, How to Read the Bible Book by Book: A Guided Tour (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2002), 76–77.0 -
Randall, this book doesn’t address Judges 19 specifically but it is relates to the broader issue of this “category“. It helped me. I know there are others I have that deal with this topic but I haven’t read them yet to be able to suggest.
https://www.logos.com/product/43185/is-god-a-moral-monster-making-sense-of-the-old-testament-god
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Allen Browne said:
Why am I told 23 times that this happened at Gibeah? Who came from there?
Good point. Along the lines of losing his tribes complete genetic material ... and having to go get some more (women).
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Randall Lind said:
nothing that why I posted in this group. Maybe they need a group to talk about the bible. I am reading the whole bible for first time and when I got to this chapter it just seems odd to me.
Faithlife does not provide a groups to talk about the Bible - it would quickly turn into chaos that makes Babel appear unified. That doesn't mean you can't ask for help identifying resources or tools to makes sense out of something that seems very strange. The answers you have received are all good examples of how the forums can be used to learn - what resources you may wish to add, what tools you may wish to explore.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Damian McGrath said:Randall Lind said:
nothing that why I posted in this group. Maybe they need a group to talk about the bible. I am reading the whole bible for first time and when I got to this chapter it just seems odd to me.
Randall are you using any resource to help as you read through the bible?
I heartily recommend Gordon Fee's How to Read the Bible Book by Book: https://www.logos.com/product/5439/how-to-read-the-bible-book-by-book
For each book, it offers an overview, specific advice for how to read the book, and then a simple walk-though. So for the section on Judges 17:1-21:25 it says:
Note how this conclusion is carefully crafted around the phrase, “In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as [they] saw fit [what was right in their own eyes]” (17:6; 21:25; cf. 18:1; 19:1). With these words the narrator gives you the perspective from which the whole story has been told: Israel is in disarray; it has no central leadership—and no accepted central sanctuary, as had been commanded in Deuteronomy.
Thus, the first episode (ch. 17) in the first story illustrates Israel’s syncretism (Micah’s mother consecrates her silver to Yahweh for her son to make an idol), while the second (ch. 18) illustrates both the Danite context out of which Samson came and the unsettled conditions in Israel due to the failure of conquest with which the book began. Both episodes illustrate the failure of true worship in Israel.
The gruesome nature of the second story (chs. 19–21) illustrates both the depth of Israel’s remembered moral decay (see Hos 9:9–10) and the reality that she teeters regularly on the brink of intertribal war. Israel needs God’s appointed king.
Gordon D. Fee and Douglas K. Stuart, How to Read the Bible Book by Book: A Guided Tour (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2002), 76–77.No I am just reading straight through the 2nd time I am going to read and use Word Biblical Commentary or some other ones.
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Allen Browne said:Randall Lind said:
Judges 19 is crazy a man comes to stay the night then the town knocks on the door the man of the house offers his daughter and concubine. They took the concubine and had their way with her until she died. Then the master cut her up into 12 pieces and sent her throughout the land of Isreal.
WHAT THE HECK??? This is just insane.
Agreed, Randall. Your emotional reaction is completely appropriate.
So the question to ask is, "Why is the story being told this way? What is the author saying? Why is he stirring us up like this?"
Among the commentaries that will help you answer that question are:
- Webb, Barry G. The Book of Judges. NICOT (Eerdmans, 2012).
- Beldman, David J. H. Deserting the King: The Book of Judges. Transformative Word. (Lexham Press, 2017).
- Chisholm, Robert B., Jr. A Commentary on Judges and Ruth. Kregel Exegetical Library (Kregel Academic, 2013).
And look for clues in the way the story is being told, e.g.:
- The first verse of Judges 19 (compare the last phrase of the book).
- Why am I told 23 times that this happened at Gibeah? Who came from there?
Hope that helps you to read the story well. Your question is crucial to understanding Judges as a whole.
The Preacher Commentary series volume 7 Judges / Ruth gives great more details.
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Randall Lind said:
No I am just reading straight through the 2nd time I am going to read and use Word Biblical Commentary or some other ones.
Welcome to the forums. If you have Logos Bible Software, many resources will help with difficult and/or strange passages. This one is certainly a strange one and as one resource mentioned above points out, the moral decay that eventually occurs when the Lord God is no longer acknowledged as king.
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I was irritated by many passages in Richter - and most of the comments were not so enlightening ... until I came across a Jewish explanation....
Ariel’s Bible Commentary: Judges and Ruth | Logos Bible Software0 -
Randall Lind said:
WHAT THE HECK??? This is just insane.
Actually, it's just a morbid story. Just wait until you realize the cram-packed massive prophetic importance it plays in an even bigger...much, much bigger prophetic tableaux that will blow your mind. Then it will be insane...or at the very least "unbelievable".
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Damian McGrath said:
The gruesome nature of the second story (chs. 19–21) illustrates both the depth of Israel’s remembered moral decay (see Hos 9:9–10) and the reality that she teeters regularly on the brink of intertribal war. Israel needs God’s appointed king.
Gordon D. Fee and Douglas K. Stuart, How to Read the Bible Book by Book: A Guided Tour (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2002), 76–77.Wow...that's Fee's take away?? That is pretty much as diametrically opposite to an appropriate conclusion as anyone could manufacture in light of what follows. Isa. 6:9 comes to mind. [8-)] How not to read the Bible? [:S]
Now that I'm thinking of it, I think I may have actually cited this same comment in a note I attached to this pericope in my NASB...as an example of shockingly bad exegesis. Spooky bad.[:O]
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David Paul said:
.as an example of shockingly bad exegesis. Spooky bad.
This sort of evaluative statement knocking someone else's suggestion simply sparks out of bounds discussions - and undermines your credibility. You have interesting and useful perspectives ... please make us want to read them.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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@ David Paul
From the conclusions you describe, I love the Jewish explanatory perspective0 -
MJ. Smith said:David Paul said:
.as an example of shockingly bad exegesis. Spooky bad.
This sort of evaluative statement knocking someone else's suggestion simply sparks out of bounds discussions - and undermines your credibility. You have interesting and useful perspectives ... please make us want to read them.
A bit of an ironic comment, as it is the credibility of my interesting and useful perspectives that prompted my comment. Rather than just blurt out the "why" of my statement, I left it others to cogitate on why I said it. It (the exegetical conclusion) is demonstrably poor, to put it mildly...it really shouldn't be that hard for most people to comprehend why if they follow the broader narrative.
That said, I understand why you said what you said, so I will accept the knuckle rap and provisionally [:#].
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I was lied too in Sunday School LOL I was always told the man that came to stay the night was an angle or perhaps Jesus and they stepped in and intervene. Unless that was another bible story. LOL I am remembering a lot of these stories being told to me as a kid in Sunday School as I keep reading the bible .
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Since this is turning into a discussion anyway, I think that 19:1 and 21:25 are important. It sounds like disapproval of the situation in Israel described in chapters 19-21
Just my 2¢
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Randall Lind said:
I was always told the man that came to stay the night was an angle or perhaps Jesus and they stepped in and intervene. Unless that was another bible story.
That was Lot and his salty wife. 'Never look back.'
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David Paul, while I have found myself in disagreement with you on certain topics in the past (certainly not all), I do keep an open mind and consider points of view that differ from mine. This is a passage that will require me to consider all viewpoints from scratch as I know very little. Not seeking a debate or further explanation from you but rather a simple request. Would you please provide a commentary or other resource that articulates your perspective here, especially as it relates to the “much bigger prophetic tableaux”?
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Deleted because I was wrong
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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DMB said:Randall Lind said:
I was always told the man that came to stay the night was an angle or perhaps Jesus and they stepped in and intervene. Unless that was another bible story.
That was Lot and his salty wife. 'Never look back.'
A related but different story...Gen. 19.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I’m taking a course by J. Kent Edwards on how to preach biblical narrative. There’s a section in the textbook where he goes for first person preaching. I would definitely not do a first person preaching narrative sermon on this story. Imagine the introduction on that! “Hello, I am a levite and I want to tell you a story of what happened to me for not listening to my concubine’s father…”
Off topic, I definitely want to polish preaching narratives, but I definitely do not dig first person preaching. It just doesn’t feel right. Well…that’s that…
DAL
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Greg Dement said:
Not seeking a debate or further explanation from you but rather a simple request. Would you please provide a commentary or other resource that articulates your perspective here, especially as it relates to the “much bigger prophetic tableaux”?
Greg, I wish I could, but ironically I can't (that is, if a thing can be ironic and also anticipated and predicatable), since Fee's perspective is generally representative rather than atypical. It's a form of Isa. 29:10, 11 NASB. The Bible is a prophetic book, and only prophetic vision can comprehend it. In my experience, commentary writers don't have it. Without it, folks can have a printed Bible in theirs laps and still be firmly in the grip of `Aamohss's famine (Amos 8:12 NASB).
I know you didn't ask for an explanation, but I don't want to leave you hanging or bricked, so just think on this. I'm not sure why this rarely occurs to people, but dispite what Judges repeatedly says ("there was no king over Israel"), the fact is, Yis:raa'eil had a King...YHWH. The problem wasn't the lack of leadership. Rather, the problem was ignoring and disobeying the leadership of the King they had. When that's the root problem, providing a (different) king solves nothing. To even want any other king was sin in His eyes.
Yet Fee says the atrocity of Gibeah proved that Israel needed a king provided by God. Is that so? Oh, the irony!! Proof that Fee is completely off-base is the simple prophetic fact that when the nation demanded such a king, they got what they deserved. YHWH gave them a king...from Gibeah. How did that work out?
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:DMB said:Randall Lind said:
I was always told the man that came to stay the night was an angle or perhaps Jesus and they stepped in and intervene. Unless that was another bible story.
That was Lot and his salty wife. 'Never look back.'
A related but different story...Gen. 19.
That what makes this story weird too how it pretty much the same as Lot's with some other stuff added.
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Randall Lind said:
That what makes this story weird too how it pretty much the same as Lot's with some other stuff added.
It is not unusual for story patterns to appear multiple times in the Bible. That is an important clue as to the purpose of the story in the text.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Randall Lind said:David Paul said:DMB said:Randall Lind said:
I was always told the man that came to stay the night was an angle or perhaps Jesus and they stepped in and intervene. Unless that was another bible story.
That was Lot and his salty wife. 'Never look back.'
A related but different story...Gen. 19.
That what makes this story weird too how it pretty much the same as Lot's with some other stuff added.
Couple that with the fact that Peter calls him righteous Lot in 2 Peter 2:7-8, it makes you want to scratch your head even more 🤔
Not only that, but God said Kings shouldn’t multiply wives for themselves (Deuteronomy 17:17), yet God gave David (“a man after God’s own heart”) many wives (2 Samuel 12:8). Stories like these help you understand that we need to be diligent students of the Word. We won’t understand everything, but what we need to understand in order to be saved, God has revealed it to us and even then we don’t always get it right all the time. Now who said the Bible was an easy book to study, raise your hand 🙋♂️ — 😂😂😂 Oh the depth of the riches…(Romans 11:33)!
DAL
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DMB said:
That was Lot ...
And Abraham was the original theologian: he knew a Lot. ;-)
MJ is right: this forum is for discussing resources.
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Allen Browne said:DMB said:
That was Lot ...
And Abraham was the original theologian: he knew a Lot. ;-)
MJ is right: this forum is for discussing resources.
LOL That is awesome!
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David Paul said:
I'm not sure why this rarely occurs to people, but dispite what Judges repeatedly says ("there was no king over Israel"), the fact is, Yis:raa'eil had a King...YHWH. The problem wasn't the lack of leadership. Rather, the problem was ignoring and disobeying the leadership of the King they had. When that's the root problem, providing a (different) king solves nothing. To even want any other king was sin in His eyes.
Yet Fee says the atrocity of Gibeah proved that Israel needed a king provided by God. Is that so? Oh, the irony!! Proof that Fee is completely off-base is the simple prophetic fact that when the nation demanded such a king, they got what they deserved. YHWH gave them a king...from Gibeah. How did that work out?
Just came across Judges 8:22, 23 and it reminded me of the above. I think Gidh:yohn , who was just a few chapters earlier, had the right idea.
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