Accordance, Bible Explorer, Biblesoft, BibleWorks, Laridian, Olive Tree, Quickverse, WORDsearch...

The title of this post will probably help clear up any confusion about whether it is okay to post the names of the competition or not.

I was asked to comment on this recently, and am happy to oblige. We have no problem with people posting comments that include the names of other Bible software companies or products. The issue is not that we have a "naughty word list" that includes words like "Accordance, Bible Explorer, Biblesoft, BibleWorks, Laridian, Olive Tree, Quickverse, WORDsearch..." but rather, since we are in the Logos forums, we want to keep the focus on Logos.

There's an appropriate use of discussion related to Logos that mentions other products. For example, did you know that BibleWorks supports external links to Logos books? There are two ways to talk about that. One "cool" way is to start a thread and ask other Logos users which resources are best to buy at Logos so you can link to them from your BibleWorks library, or look for interesting ways to link from BibleWorks to specialized resources within Logos. Alternatively, a "not so cool" way would be to start a thread and basically create an advertisement for BibleWorks, and encourage all the Logos users to drop Logos and go buy BibleWorks, and then put an actual hyperlink to a discount page. The difference is clear, keep the conversation about Logos, and not an advertisement for, or link to, the other companies and products.

Also, please remember we are talking about companies and products designed to help people get more into Bible study. Let's not forget that there are real human beings behind these products, and they want to sell a product yes, but they could be in any business they want. They chose to be where they could help get people into the Word. On a business level we are on different "teams", but on another level it is more like your kids being on different "teams" in little-league. When the season is over both your kids are still on "Dad's team".

People tend to get passionate about products, brands, sports teams, theologies, denominations, local churches... you get the idea. Because of this passion, there is a danger to cheer on the home team a little too fervently, at the expense of the "competition", and that is what we want to avoid.

When you happen to mention another product, make sure it is kind, gentle, appropriate and relevant to the thread, and that the thread is about Logos. At Logos we are all about the Bible and better access to it. We think everyone should be studying the Bible, and we are glad that there is enough interest in Bible study to have so many products for that purpose.

Do we love our baby? Yes!
Is the Logos forum designed to be all about Logos? Yes!
Do other companies produce products to help people in Bible study? Yes!
Is it okay to mention other products without advertising or linking to them? Yes!

I hope that clears it up, except for one last thing I really want to say, and this bears repeating, ahem, Accordance, Bible Explorer, Biblesoft, BibleWorks, Laridian, Olive Tree, Quickverse, WORDsearch...

Stick out tongue

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Comments

LaRosa Johnson

I think it's cool that all of these companies can work together in one way or another & that they all have the common goal of getting people to study the Word of God [:)]

It's nice to see the Olive Tree guys @ BibleTech... or Accordance & Logos & BibleWorks going head to head @ SBL, but still sitting down & being friendly with one another after it's all said & done.

You gotta luv it! They all push each other to excel & make Bible study better for the consumer!

MJ. Smith

except for one last thing I really want to say, and this bears repeating, ahem, Accordance, Bible Explorer, Biblesoft, BibleWorks, Laridian, Olive Tree, Quickverse, WORDsearch...

I object. You failed to mention Biblia Clerus, Davar 3, The Faith Database (which currently has some problems with its downloads), Vulgate 4, Bible Mapper, Menologion, and Universalis all of which sit on my Logos shortcut bar - which tells you what I treat as my primary product. [:D] ... and I have none that you mentioned although I did help my father with one of them.

Paul Golder

You gotta luv it! They all push each other to excel & make Bible study better for the consumer!

And I get to sit back and reap all the benefits... [:D]

J. Morris

I'm glad for the clarification. Much appreciated.

Jerry Bush

What about little ol' e-Sword?

Jerry

Rosie Perera

Great post, Dan, thank you. What an example of godly competition. And you've just proven a point that I think I'd made somewhere else which is that the mere mention of the names of those products is not a problem. It does not cause Search engines to drive more traffic to their sites or anything (which some of the other MVPs were claiming). If that were the case you wouldn't have so gleefully repeated them over and over in your post. [;)]

Matthew C Jones

I object. You failed to mention

...... Dan did not mention ABible either (Japanese software) but who's keeping track?

I do have all the software programs mentioned (-Laridian) and while I find nice things about each of them, there are two points I want to make for the other Logos users:

1) I have never gone to other companies' websites and trashed their product because I think it is wrong to do so.

2) I know Logos is the best in the field. And that is quite an achievement considering some of the other companies also do well.

Thank you Dan (& Bob, Dale, Phil & just about everybody at Logos) for being so gracious about everything.

Bohuslav Wojnar

It's early morning here in Europe and I want to say Dan, you made my day. You just proved to me that, yes, you are a business company, but you are first of all Bible believing, God loving Christians. I feel very good, and even better now, about using of your product, by far the best Bible program on the market IMHO.

Just to add one little point, before we have all the Czech and Polish Bibles in Logos, Davar 3 icon will seat on my Logos toolbar to get an easy access to those Bibles as I study Logos.

Ted Hans

Thanks Dan for the clarification though I did not need it, your previous post was clear to me. Some users went far beyond what you intended in your previous post on the same subject matter. Stifling appropriate conversation/inquiry on the forum when another software was mentioned which did not involve promoting or linking to other products though their intentions were noble.

I have argued on three separate threads for the above (your clarification) as your intended meaning. Glad that this will lay to rest what in my view was a draconian application and interpretation of your previous post. Thanks again & good morning down here in the UK.

Ted

Edit

Donovan R. Palmer

Excellent post. I suggest this be a 'sticky' at the top of the forum for future reference.

Alan Macgregor

Excellent post. I suggest this be a 'sticky' at the top of the forum for future reference.

I'd second that! [Y]

Nathan Madison

Ok now that this is out and in the air is this the correct place to ask if logos4 has links that will allow me to access my wordsearch POSB comentaries. I've used both for years with LOGOS being my main application i would love to be able to access that data. (espeacily with Logos 4 faster search capaiblities). [:^)]

Robert Pavich

Dan,

thanks for the clarification....

I get it...[:O]

Juanita

What about little ol' e-Sword?

Jerry

Yes, I thought of that one, too, along with any other free Bible software or smaller package like OLB.

Jerry Bush

E-Sword is a pretty amazing little piece of software for what it is. I still recommend it to people that just want to do simple searches and are not ready to take the plunge into Logos. There are no other paid programs that I would recommend.

A great reflection on L4:
I used Logos 3 almost exclusively. I also had e-Sword installed. I used it for quick searches and copying. Mostly copying to make PPoint slides. After a few weeks of Logos 4, I realized that I was not opening e-Sword anymore. The speed and improved copying features had eliminated my need for it.

I honestly can't think of anything Logos 4 does not have that I need. I have a copy of WORDsearch that is not installed. I can download e-Sword anytime. No need to because of L4. Pretty cool.

Now if they would only get the UPDATED version of My Utmost For His Highest in Logos, I would be totally happy.

How about Community Pricing to gauge interest, Logos gals & guys?

Jerry

LaRosa Johnson

if logos4 has links that will allow me to access my wordsearch POSB comentaries

That currently isn't possible right now.

James Thompson

There's an appropriate use of discussion related to Logos that mentions other products. For example, did you know that BibleWorks supports external links to Logos books? There are two ways to talk about that. One "cool" way is to start a thread and ask other Logos users which resources are best to buy at Logos so you can link to them from your BibleWorks library, or look for interesting ways to link from BibleWorks to specialized resources within Logos.

Dan,

I really appreciate this clarification. The specific example you used is something I've had several questions about since I own BibleWorks. With the release of BW8 some of the external links to Logos don't work with the same ease (probably an overstatement) as they did with BW7. I had wanted to ask a few questions but it seemed like everytime someone mentioned a competing product the "forum police" would immediately pounce on the unsuspecting offender. Again, thanks for the clarification.

Bohuslav Wojnar

Thanks Dan for the clarification though I did not need it, your previous post was clear to me. Some users went far beyond what you intended in your previous post on the same subject matter. Stifling appropriate conversation/inquiry on the forum when another software was mentioned which did not include promoting or linking to the product though their intentions were noble.

I have argued on three separate threads for the above (your clarification) as your intended meaning. Glad that this will lay to rest what in my view was a draconian application and interpretation of your previous post. Thanks again & good morning down here in the UK.

Ted

Yes Ted, you are right (as usually [:)] ). The way the regulations has been usually explained on the forum (not by Logos but by us, users) somehow did not go well together with all other very broadminded and gracious attitude of Bob and other people in Logos to anybody, even users who abused Logos verbally and have not acted fair to them. I am very glad we have heard that clarification from Dan. Now I feel much better about their attitude to the other Bible software companies than before. It's true "chesed" (steadfast love) attitude. As I understand "chesed" is that it is the attitude of a winner towards all others. Only those who are sure of their place in Christ (and I believe it applies to people in the Bible software companies also) can truly express chesed like David did in many occasions. I'll stop here before I start preaching... [:$]

Ted Hans

Beautiful post from you Bohuslav. What can I say? As for you preaching just a gentle reminder when will you get round making your web site more English friendly[:)]? Second time I am asking, looking forward to your musing[Y].

Ted

Matthew C Jones

if logos4 has links that will allow me to access my wordsearch POSB comentaries

That currently isn't possible right now.

Do you know something we haven't heard yet? It would be an interesting scenario to access Wordsearch/Bible Explorer resources through Logos. There are a few titles (i.e. Complete Biblical Library) that are exclusive to Wordsearch for a number of years.

This also reminds me of Bob Pritchett's survey last year when he polled users about what features they would like to see. One question was "How important is it to you for Logos to be able to use PDF documents?"

I would be tickled pink to use Logos to access EVERYTHING, regardless of it's format and orign. A web-based Logos should be able to do that if licensing agreements are not a problem. It might be a "win-win" for all companies involved.

Bohuslav Wojnar

Beautiful post from you Bohuslav. What can I say? As for you preaching just a gentle reminder when will you get round making your web site more English friendly? Second time I am asking, looking forward to your musing.

Ted

Thank you Ted. You are very kind. Well, I wish we would be able to have an English version of our web site sometimes. In the list of "must do" things it is number... (well, sorry, it would not encourage you...) [:)]

The main thing on our site that is used very much is sermon download and obviously that is just Czech. There is no way to have that in English, only if we would manage to convince our people to listen to the English sermons. [:)]

LaRosa Johnson

Do you know something we haven't heard yet?

Little birdies tell me things... but I doubt any linking between WORDsearch & Logos will happen in the foreseeable future [:)]

NetworkGeek

Great email! Did you know that

Logos rocks!, Accordance, Logos rocks!, Bible Explorer, Logos rocks!, Biblesoft, Logos rocks!, BibleWorks, Logos rocks!, Laridian, Logos rocks!, Olive Tree, Logos rocks!, Quickverse, Logos rocks!, WORDsearch

Giovanni Baggio

Personally, I agree with your comments. However, if I were to mention the fact that I use other softwares, that doesn't mean I'm advertising them. For example, my # 1 Bible software is Logos 4 and I don't have to state the reasons, they are very obvious - Logos is the best in the business. My # 2 is WordSearch and I only have 3 reasons to use it: 1) They have lots of free books (e.g. from Hodge's commentaries to McGarvey's commentaries, etc.); 2) They have Dr. Rod Mattoon's Treasures from the Scriptures which are awesome and extremely practical for preaching through books of the Bible and 3) WordSearch has the complete John G. Butler's Analytical Bible Expositor, Following God Series, Biography Series and Studies on the Savior Series which are a magnificent help to preach expository sermons. You put Mattoon's work together with Butler's and you could literally preach for several years using their material alone!!! Superb masterpieces!!! If Logos could manage to get this BRILLIANT resources on Logos 4 format, that would definitely make me a Logos 4 Exclusive user! [:D] And last but not least, my # 3 Bible software is e-sword because: 1) It's FREE (free is always good), 2) It has 20 Spanish translations and 3) you can create your own modules for free too.

Having said all of that, I still love Logos 4 and one of the things I'm looking forward to is for my personal book builder to be available in Logos 4. I'm already able to see my sermons from the Sermon file in Logos 4, but having the PBB that will really help me get some of my own work to work with my favorite software. Anyway, to all those reading this post, if you really want to invest in the most splendid tool for Bible study, make sure to stop by at www.logos.com and choose the package of your choice. I recommend to go with Scholar's package or higher and take advantage of the Payment Plan option. I guartee that you will never be disappointed!

God bless!

Friedrich

I was wondering about "middle ground" discussions, a bit like Giovanni brings up in the previous post where posters "talk up" the value of other software. Imo, how Giovanni did it is fine, because a) he is not slamming, but in fact promoting Logos, and b) the whole post--let alone thread--is not devoted exclusively to extolling the virtues of Accordance, BW, E-S, etc.

Still, it is more than just seeing how Logos and other software application have a point of contact. So, is a post like the above still satisfactory on these forums?

Ted Hans

WordSearch has the complete John G. Butler's Analytical Bible Expositor,

For those not aware of the Logos edition. See here for the Analytical Bible Expositor http://www.logos.com/search?q=John+G.+Butler%27s+Analytical+Bible+Expositor

Following God Series,

See here http://www.logos.com/products/details/2483

Biography Series and Studies on the Savior Series which are a magnificent help to preach expository sermons. You put Mattoon's work together with Butler's and you could literally preach for several years using their material alone!!! Superb masterpieces!!! If Logos could manage to get this BRILLIANT resources on Logos 4 format, that would definitely make me a Logos 4 Exclusive user!

You can suggest that these books be made available in Logos in the suggest forum here http://community.logos.com/forums/28.aspx and email - suggest AT logos.com

Ted

Giovanni Baggio

Thanks for the links Ted,

I'm within the 60 day Wordsearch return policy -- So I'll go ahead and return the Butler's Analytical B.E. and get the logos version instead. I will suggest to Logos to make the Biography series and Studies on the Savior available if they can. I only own a couple of print volumes and I would like to have them in Logos 4 format. Concerning the following God series, I have ordered them from Wordsearch, but they're more like study guides, so for now I'll skip the digital versions (will return them too) and just pray that Logos will get the Biography series and Studies on the Savior series available. Hey, they might even be interested in putting Dr. Rod Mattoon's Treasure's from the Scriptures in Logos 4. Either way, my # 1 Bible software of all time has always been and will always be Logos Bible Software.

Friedrich

I will suggest to Logos

Giovanni--do you know about suggest@logos.com and also writing a suggestion post on the "suggestions" forum section here? Those two things will help your suggestions get noted by Logos.

Mike Childs

Personally, I am content with Logos. It does everything I need to do. So I have no need to mention the others.

David Ames

We have several Special Interest Groups:
Anglican
Lutheran
Orthodox
Pentecostal & Charismatic
Reformed
Seventh-day Adventist
Verbum [Catholic] [Still missing its own Forum but the only one with a Blog]

Only the Verbum group has released a $50 package that allows FULL study of their Beliefs.

[The others are working on Special Interest Group Packages but they will have a hard time matching Verbum.]

Dan Francis

Personally, I am content with Logos. It does everything I need to do. So I have no need to mention the others.

Coming late to the discussion. I use four different programs. Accordance and Olivetree work well for me for somethings and I have no wish to duplicate resources I already own there. Wordsearch offers several items that I can not find elsewhere. They all have their uses.. That being said Logos is used most heavily because at least 75% of all my resources are in it (probably logos has available 90% of all i own). I would be really nice if only one was needed, Logos offers most everything I want but not quite all and their mobile experience while good is not the best for me. I, and others, have asked in forums in the past why dose x company have something so much cheaper. But in the end it matters not.. We are not privy to the inside deals publishers make with various software companies. I know when i asked about the price difference of one item years ago I was told that the publisher would't let them price it as low as company B. I eventually found a Logos 3 CDROM for purchase that had the items on for a good price, and now Logos has a similar if not same price for the work. But that just goes to show you how sometimes contracts ties one companies hands and when all is said and done if we want the cheaper price there is nothing stoping us from using the other software (and doing our own price comparison, i must admit more than once I have bought a CDROM for Logos resources because it was significantly cheaper than getting it directly from Logos).

-Dan

Jesse Blevins

At one time you could use sources across several publishers because they all used the same step format. That was very nice while it lasted.

DMB

STEP had unresolvable issues.

Take for example my Logos copy of the NET Bible. Sometimes I'm not entirely sure it's correct. So I compare it to my NET Bible in Olivetree. If the passage is especially difficult, I may also compare it to my NET Bible in PocketBible. Just a couple of days ago I luckily had an NET Bible on my Kindle, which turned out to have the better reading.

I could never have done this in a STEP environment.

Now granted, I could have also cross-checked the NET Bible in my own Bible software, but I 'adjust' the text as needed when NET is incorrect (ok, call me a 'copyist').

John

I think it's cool that all of these companies can work together in one way or another & that they all have the common goal of getting people to study the Word of God

I would like to see them work together in a greater way. I would like to see a common licensing arrangement, or better yet a common file format.

For example: I can go to the store and buy a movie on a DVD or a Blueray disc. I can take it home and insert it into my Blueray player. It does not matter which manufacturer I bought the player from, I can be confident that the disc will play. If I have a Sony player in my living room, and a Panasonic or an LG player in my bedroom, the disc will play in any and all of them.

With Bible software, I have the ESV Study Bible in Bibleworks. I have the NASB and the NLT in Laridian. I have other resources such as TDNT in Olivetree. And numerous resources in Logos.

If I want to view any of these resources on a different platform, I have to purchase them AGAIN. Some of these I have already paid for licenses 3 or 4 times, but still cannot view them anywhere at any time. If I want to read any of these resources on my Nook e-Reader, I have to pay for them over again.

The cost of Logos includes licenses for dozens of resources. But If I also buy another competing product, I have to repay those same license fees over again.

The individual companies that resell these licenses are competing with each other, and they make their profit margin either way. But the customer many times is paying for the same product over again. The customer loses, and until the customers demand change, this unfair system will continue to exist.

This is a crime being committed by the publishers, essentially charging the end user multiple times for the same product. And I know someone will argue against what I am saying here, that the license has restrictions that require you to pay again for A B or C reasons. That argument misses the whole point. The licensing scheme is part of the problem.

In the past, an attempt was made with a format called STEP, which seems to have disappeared from view. The format may have failed, but the idea behind it was good. You could pay for a license for a STEP resource once, and then view it in any software on any platform that supported STEP.

Bibleworks now has the ability to read some Wordsearch resources, which the purchaser can view in either program. This is a step in the right direction for the customer. The question is, will other companies join an effort like this and support it, or continue business as usual and hope that it goes away like STEP did. My guess is the latter, because doing what is right for the customer usually takes a back seat to the bottom line.