Can a Factbook entry be created for the Wesleyan Quadrilateral with links to the following dictionary entries (along with any others that I don't own):
https://ref.ly/logosres/globaldicttheol?ref=Page.p+932&off=1562
https://ref.ly/logosres/nwdctth2nded?hw=Wesleyan+Quadrilateral
https://ref.ly/logosres/pdtheol?hw=Wesleyan+quadrilateral
https://ref.ly/logosres/wstmnstrdcxpndd?hw=Quadrilateral%2c+Wesleyan
I second that motion!
I'd like to piggyback and ask a related question. If not the right place, am happy to post my question to a separate thread. So here it goes...
Is it easy to identify instances where Mr. Wesley used reason (one side of the quadrilateral) to either push back against a doctrine or provide evidence in favor of a doctrine? Are there resources where such instances are concentrated?
Thanks
Hi 1Cor 10:31, good question to research.
Seems like some resources talk about Wesley and reason:
https://www.logos.com/product/157845/faith-and-reason-three-views
A screen captue of an older ed.:
The footnote above seems to point to:
https://tosihydaquzozav.epapereditions.icu/thy-nature-and-thy-name-is-love-book-33629qr.php
From Amazon books (sorry, no Kindle) review:
"...Written by leading process and Wesleyan theologians, this book will be helpful to college, seminary, and graduate students, as well as professors. The book can also serve as a supplemental text for philosophy and theology classes. Thy Nature & Thy Name is Love brings leading scholars into dialogue over points of convergence and divergence between Wesleyan and process theologies. This diverse group of authors, which includes two African American and two women scholars, addresses issues of doctrine, such as sanctification, as well as more methodological questions, such as epistemology, metaphysics, and aesthetics."
Another way one could look at this is:
https://www.logos.com/product/192201/the-foolishness-of-god-the-place-of-reason-in-the-theology-of-martin-luther
Maybe look at the Bible verses / pericopes provided and look them up with cited by in Wesley's resources.
Including something like:
https://www.logos.com/product/201299/the-wesley-study-bible
I would have made a basic search for "reason" in a quick John Wesley collection to see what my resources have to say, if it wasn't for "preparing your library" taking forever.
Hope some of this helps.
P. S. It would be nice to have a resource like the Catholic Topical Index, but that referenced to other theologians like Wesley, Calvin, Barth, etc.
OK, quick collection "John Wesley", basic search for the term: reason
quick collection "reason", basic search for the term: Wesley
While I am not a Wesleyian, I believe that the elements in the quadrilateral are generally all brought to bear in pretty much any answer although an answer may emphasize one or another of the elements. I suspect that the better question is to ask for examples where he did not use reason. I base this answer on the similar models of the Anglicans and the Catholics which share 3 of the 4 elements of the quadrilateral. Note the Wesleyian quadrilateral is not from Wesley. Note that there is also a Lambeth Quadrilateral which is a topic in Logos.
Can a Factbook entry be created for the Wesleyan Quadrilateral with links to the following dictionary entries
Yes: these dictionaries haven't yet been aligned with the Logos Controlled Vocabulary (the mechanism that gets dictionary articles into Factbook), but that work is planned.
Thanks for taking the time to suggest new Factbook entries. We'd like to implement a more direct way to do so in the future, but for now, a forum post (especially with a clear title like the one you've used here) is the best way to suggest others.
Dear Hamilton,
Thank you very much for the extensive help. Super appreciative of your effort.
The first resource is a good place to start, in general, for the role of reason. I didn't even know that I had the resource.
Your search ideas should help me locate more of such resources.
I don't have the Wesleyan study Bible, but have some Wesleyan commentaries. I had not read these commentaries before, but you give me a reason to look into them.
I have a lot of people in my orbit who don't believe reasoning has a role in coming up with new truths or rejecting truths we've believed in. I believe God is the most logical being, so everything He designed should be consistent with logic. I am ok if I am unable to connect the dots, but I tend to eject things that are blatantly illogical. I've been collecting material whenever I stumble upon well-reasoned arguments and I am always looking to add more. Thank you very much for your help, Hamilton.
I don't know if my beliefs can be easily put into one of the denominational buckets. I would like to think I am non-denominational based on my beliefs compared to other Christans. The one belief I have is that the Bible is without error and, because of that assumption, the Bible is my starting point.
As I had mentioned in my response to Hamilton, I am trying to reason with people in my orbit to consider reason as a genuine tool to use in interpreting the Bible to arrive at doctrinal truths. They think that just because I am a financial economist, I am obsessed with reasoning and trying to express everything mathematically. I have been trying, but failing, to convince people that Math is also a language but with the added benefit of precision thrown in. If I show respected theologians/pastors/seminarians...have used sound reasoning along with Bible verses to make their point, maybe people would reconsider their beliefs. With whatever I've read so far, theologians/pastors/seminarians use logic here and there, but it doesn't run through everything they write about. Would be happy to hear which authors/theologians are well-known for using reason.
I didn't know the Anglicans and Catholics used reasoning. I've read Aquinas's Summa here and there. Haven't been able to entice my Catholic friends to read the Summa[:(] Would love to know others who are known for their reasoning skill.
Thank you MJ.
the Wesleyan Quadrilateral
I would hope that any Factbook Entries on epistemology would include the 3-legged stool, the quadrilateral, and the 5 actors on the Stage of Truth proposed here https://www.credocourses.com/product/introduction-to-theology/ (the 5 adds "general revelation" as distinct from experience)
Can a Factbook entry be created for the Wesleyan Quadrilateral with links to the following dictionary entries Yes: these dictionaries haven't yet been aligned with the Logos Controlled Vocabulary (the mechanism that gets dictionary articles into Factbook), but that work is planned. Thanks for taking the time to suggest new Factbook entries. We'd like to implement a more direct way to do so in the future, but for now, a forum post (especially with a clear title like the one you've used here) is the best way to suggest others.
[H]. Thanks Sean.
Hi David Thomas:
Do you happen to know how many gigabytes would the download be?
https://www.credocourses.com/product/theology-program-digital-bundle/
Hi David Thomas: Do you happen to know how many gigabytes would the download be? https://www.credocourses.com/product/theology-program-digital-bundle/
This one (https://www.credocourses.com/product/platinum-thumb-drive-bundle/) includes material from above. It costs $200 instead of $100. It seems to come with a 256GB thumb drive.
I suspect that the better question is to ask for examples where he did not use reason. I base this answer on the similar models of the Anglicans and the Catholics which share 3 of the 4 elements of the quadrilateral. Note the Wesleyian quadrilateral is not from Wesley. Note that there is also a Lambeth Quadrilateral which is a topic in Logos.
Excellent research idea MJ.
And my point exactly underlying most of my posts through time.
How much of key theological insight from different authors is due to a particular part of the quadrilateral.
Just to mention some cases:
Paul: extremely cognizant and acquainted with: Scriptures, Tradition (Gamaliel), reason... Paul probably reasoning them Christians are blaspheming, I see no connection of what they believe and do with any of what we know to be true Religion.
Voila, through God's grace, comes EXPERIENCE into Paul's life... he meets Jesus Christ, and eventually he gets it right: all is rubbish compared to the knowledge of He who created us and saves us: Jesus Christ Lord and Savior, none other.
Then we have Jonathan Edwards:
awesome tradition, reason, Scripture, but note his late emphasis in experience after something extraordinary happened to him:
So it seems that in two of the most advanced theologians in their time, experience modified the other legs of their quadrilaterals, so the Methodist insistence of Scripture being of weightier value, is relative to the kind of experience the persons has.
Scripture alone can never surpass meeting Living Torah face to face ever.
Strange that popular traditions do not make this subject primary in their study curriculum.
Some interesting articles about the quadrilateral:
https://www.theopedia.com/wesleyan-quadrilateral
https://www.pecometh.org/blog/bid/370891/the-keys-to-confirmation-scripture-tradition-experience-and-reason
http://archives.gcah.org/bitstream/handle/10516/5736/MH-1991-January-Campbell.pdf?sequence=1
In Catholicism contemplation is stressed in some orders / internal branches, being in the presence of God is possible and is much what Christianity is about. I wonder how many of the saints, had a one on one actual interaction with God, and not only contemplation.
Most of modern thought on the subject want to label as delusional if a believer hears and talks to God, but is it so according to the Bible?
Lots of research needed about the topic.
[note I am using reason (the right type), to understand that experience under certain cases is more important than Scripture, as we as humans can get its interpretation wrong. Now the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself, so His messages will not go against the Bible, as He intended it to be the message interpreted, which may differ from what a particular tradition interprets it.]
Note the Wesleyian quadrilateral is not from Wesley.
So very true, MJ. Dr. Albert Outler coined the term in his younger days as a progressive theologian. It is a term that he later regretted using.
Dr. Albert Outler said, "There is one phrase I wish I had never used: the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. It has created the wrong image in the minds of so many people and, I am sure, will lead to all kinds of controversy."
