The Atlas shows Esau meeting Jacob at Mahanaim, but the text seems to indicate to me that they met around Peniel, after Jacob wrestles with "the man", which is at Peniel. So, is the Atlas map incorrect at this point, or my understanding?
Bob
Do a Topic Guide on either place and it should give you bible dictionaries which discuss this matter. I started with Mahanaim.
Peniel points you to Penuel (Gen 32.30).
I did do that. The issue that I see is that the Atlas tool has Esau coming to Mahanaim, instead of Penuel.
In Factbook the event "Jacob Meets Esau" has the Setting as Jabbok River, Penuel.
The issue that I see is that the Atlas tool has Esau coming to Mahanaim, instead of Penuel.
Report it as a data bug to Sean.
The Atlas shows Esau meeting Jacob at Mahanaim, but the text seems to indicate to me that they met around Peniel, after Jacob wrestles with "the man", which is at Peniel. So, is the Atlas map incorrect at this point, or my understanding? Bob
Thanks for the question Bob. Here's the reasoning:
There's often some room for judgment in these questions, but we make our best assessment, including consulting scholarly sources.
Thanks for the question Bob. Here's the reasoning: In our Biblical Events data, the episode Jacob faces Esau indicates this event took place at Mahanaim. This was also the judgment of Dr. Barry Beitzel, our Atlas consultant. According to our Events data, Jacob Wrestles with God happened after Jacob Faces Esau, despite the wrestling event coming first in the Genesis text. With the wrestling explicitly stated to be at Penuel (Gen 32:30), it makes the most sense that the Jacob/Esau reunion was at the previous implied location of Mahanaim. There's often some room for judgment in these questions, but we make our best assessment, including consulting scholarly sources.
Sean,
Thanks for the clarification and information. Although I don't completely see this viewpoint, I will bow to the scholars, and will have to research more about this to gain more understanding.
Thanks again,
Sean, Thanks for the clarification and information. Although I don't completely see this viewpoint, I will bow to the scholars, and will have to research more about this to gain more understanding. Thanks again, Bob
There are many cases where honest people might interpret the facts differently, and we have our hands full enough with capturing a single viewpoint, rather than many (somebody else on this thread will recognize that this comment is for them [;)]. While we always strive to be "right", pragmatics sometimes requires us to settle for "defensible" decisions.
There are many cases where honest people might interpret the facts differently, and we have our hands full enough with capturing a single viewpoint, rather than many (somebody else on this thread will recognize that this comment is for them . While we always strive to be "right", pragmatics sometimes requires us to settle for "defensible" decisions.
Understood. It's such a minor, minor point. But it is interesting to see how the experts interpret.
Thanks again for your information.
According to our Events data, Jacob Wrestles with God happened after Jacob Faces Esau, despite the wrestling event coming first in the Genesis text. With the wrestling explicitly stated to be at Penuel (Gen 32:30), it makes the most sense that the Jacob/Esau reunion was at the previous implied location of Mahanaim.
Atlas places Mahanaim as first on Jacob's return from the north and Penuel further to the West as he travels toward the r. Jordan (in fact there appear to be two locations for Penuel when one hovers). But Carta Bible Atlas, Rose Bible Atlas and Holman Bible Atlas place Penuel to the East of Mahanaim whilst Carta and Rose indicate that the caravan first arrived at Mahanaim. Holman indicates they arrived at Penuel and the meeting occurred close to Penuel (these maps are in the Media section of the events below).
In Factbook we have several Events:
Jacob Faces Esau states "Jacob was afraid of Esau and sent him presents to appease him.". The Setting is Mahanaim
Jacob Meets Esau states "Esau came from Seir to meet Jacob, and Jacob introduced his family to Esau. Jacob and Esau made peace. Also: Jacob Faces Esau". The Setting is Penuel/Jabbok R.
Jacob and Esau Make Peace states "Jacob and Esau meet and reconcile.". It has no Setting but Penuel is Related.
How are we to reconcile these three events?
All judgments about the locations of ancient cities, roads, and travels come from Dr. Barry Beitzel, our cartography consultant for the older Biblical Places Maps as well as Atlas. As i recall, there was quite a bit of discussion about this sequence of events, which is not completely clear from the text.
Carta's Illustrated Bible Atlas appears to have a more westward placement of Mahanaim: such disagreements aren't uncommon for many ancient places. AYBD says
> The site of Mahanaim can confidently be identified with Telul ed-Dhahab el-Garb
Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible says:
> Various proposals have been made, including modern Khirbet Maḥneh and Tell er-Reheil, but the most likely site is western Telul edh-Dhahab, that is, Tell edh-Dhahab el-Gharbi, on the N bank of the Jabbok and some 7 mi. E of the Jordan (just NW of T. edh-Dhahab esh-Sherqiyeh, which is identified with Penuel (place).
I'm guessing this is the interpretation that Carta has taken as well. Dr Beitzel's comments in the New Moody Atlas of the Bible:
> The location of the Transjordanian sites of Mahanaim and Penuel is uncertain, beyond being situated adjacent to the Jabbok gorge. ... On the map, Mahanaim has been placed tentatively at the site of T. er-Reheil, where the main north-south road from Damascus approaches the Jabbok River and intersects with a secondary road running westward toward the Jordan. [See map 27.] Penuel must have been nearby, though it was situated between Mahanaim (Gen. 32:1) and Succoth (33:17), possibly at T. edh-Dhahab esh-Sharqia.
I believe our Events data reflects this sequence:
in fact there appear to be two locations for Penuel when one hovers).
I only see one location in the Atlas map Jacob Returns to Canaan, so I'm not sure what you're seeing: can you screenshot this or explain further?
Note that Jacob and Esau Make Peace is the "parent" episode of the two events Esau Settles in Edom (told later in Gen 36) and Jacob Meets Esau in Gen 33.
It doesn't explain the three events that I mentioned.
I only see one location in the Atlas map Jacob Returns to Canaan, so I'm not sure what you're seeing
Note that Jacob and Esau Make Peace is the "parent" episode of the two events Esau Settles in Edom (told later in Gen 36) and Jacob Meets Esau in Gen 33. It doesn't explain the three events that I mentioned.
Are you asking about the different settings? The view we're trying to represent is that the meeting took place at/near Penuel, at the Jabbok River: that's a supposition, since Gen 33 really doesn't specify the location, but that's where Jacob's wrestling apparently took place.
Jacob and Esau Make Peace isn't a single event, so we've specified that the two locations of its child events (Penuel for Gen 33:1-16, and Edom for Gen 36:6-8) are related.
There's both an open circle for the location of Penuel (open because its location is uncertain), and an event flag for Jacob Wrestles with God. We've put the event flag at about the same location (with a small offset to aid visibility). The info cards you get on hover should each be distinct (but that's hard to tell because they're close).
Are you asking about the different settings? The view we're trying to represent is that the meeting took place at/near Penuel, at the Jabbok River: that's a supposition, since Gen 33 really doesn't specify the location, but that's where Jacob's wrestling apparently took place. Jacob and Esau Make Peace isn't a single event, so we've specified that the two locations of its child events (Penuel for Gen 33:1-16, and Edom for Gen 36:6-8) are related.
Factbook has these Events:-
Jacob Faces Esau Mahanaim
Jacob and Esau Make Peace Penuel/Edom
It would be less confusing if Jacob Meets Esau is part of Jacob Faces Esau. Esau settles in Edom (Gen 36) is a continuation of Esau's story from Gen 28:9 as it explains how Esau came from Edom to the meeting (Gen 32:3) i.e. Gen 36:7-8 is a confirmation of his choice and not a result of their meeting.
I get both Info cards, but the location of Penuel is "active" for some distance to the East of the open circle.
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