Judah as a New Testament Person
January is the month of reading plans and genealogies. Many of us are reading from both Matthew and Genesis, and although the expectation is that I think genealogies are boring, I don't.
I have an upcoming paper for a biography of anyone in the book of Matthew. Technically, Judah (the son of the patriarch Jacob) is listed as an ancestor of Jesus. And this is important to the book of Matthew. Important in ways that I want to explore.
I could pump out a paper about John the baptist that is identical to thousands of others, but before I do that, I want to investigate the possibility of tweaking this assignment to allow me to discover the role Judah plays in the book of Matthew.
I don't know what I don't know. Can anyone point me in a direction? Maybe I should just drop this, but I am not quite ready to do that. I never noticed that it is Leah, not Rachel, that is the line of Jesus. I am following along in a reading plan with a church and the Pastor's comments about Leah and Judah have set off a fireworks of thoughts in my head that were not there in previous readings of Matthew and Genesis.
This is a 4 credit class, and the paper is not due until the end. I have time to read and research this topic and I want to read as diversely as possible. Are there recognized "experts" on Judah? I know to look for the recommended commentaries on specific books and I will do that. But if there is something special that I would likely miss in basic searching, could someone point me in the right direction. I feel like there might be something big that I am clueless about.
Comments
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Gen 49:10
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Kathleen Marie said:
January is the month of reading plans and genealogies. Many of us are reading from both Matthew and Genesis, and although the expectation is that I think genealogies are boring, I don't.
I have an upcoming paper for a biography of anyone in the book of Matthew. Technically, Judah (the son of the patriarch Jacob) is listed as an ancestor of Jesus. And this is important to the book of Matthew. Important in ways that I want to explore.
Love the questioning mind, Kathleen. Since Judah isn't mentioned after the first 31 verses, his role is limited to setting up the story. He's the ancestor of David whose anointed kingship opens the book (1:1) and who is the heart of the genealogy (rises to David, and falls from there).
Since Jews are largely descendants of Judah, you might want to consider whether to treat the "king of the Jews" as references to Judah's descendants. The opening genealogy lists the kings of Judah (not Israel) of course, and that remains the focus in the "son of David" passages, though Jesus extends hope to the nations at Abraham's table as well.
HTH.
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You do realize that Judas is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew name Judah, don't you? Now how you can incorporate that into a paper is up to you. [;)]
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Allen Browne said:
Since Jews are largely descendants of Judah, you might want to consider whether to treat the "king of the Jews" as references to Judah's descendants. The opening genealogy lists the kings of Judah (not Israel) of course, and that remains the focus in the "son of David" passages, though Jesus extends hope to the nations at Abraham's table as well.
Not to intrude on Kathleen's quest, but really? Each statement is flawed, but maybe doesn't matter.
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Allen Browne said:
Love the questioning mind, Kathleen. Since Judah isn't mentioned after the first 31 verses, his role is limited to setting up the story. He's the ancestor of David whose anointed kingship opens the book (1:1) and who is the heart of the genealogy (rises to David, and falls from there).
Since Jews are largely descendants of Judah, you might want to consider whether to treat the "king of the Jews" as references to Judah's descendants. The opening genealogy lists the kings of Judah (not Israel) of course, and that remains the focus in the "son of David" passages, though Jesus extends hope to the nations at Abraham's table as well.
HTH.
This is immensely helpful!
My one year subscription to the Catholic video series for the Bible Timeline is ticking down. I think finishing that will set me up to ask better questions. I need to increase my understanding of overview if I am going to pull this off and before I start hitting the academic articles. I am going to power down on that. I have enough background to understand exactly what you are saying, but not enough to write about it or even phrase the right questions. Thank you!
DMB said:Not to intrude on Kathleen's quest, but really? Each statement is flawed, but maybe doesn't matter.
I need to understand the big picture, and that is always going to include controversies. Please direct me to alternative overviews! I love to include diversity. My experience with my current school is that as long as my paper is footnoted and in full Chicago format, they allow me full freedom to include diverse ideas and sources. My first paper was graded harshly, but my later papers were all given 100%. The main difference was amount of formatting and the number of footnotes. My goal is to learn as much as I can as fast as I can, and that includes practicing what I am allowed to practice with my current school. I am respectful when I don't have permissions, but run with those that I do have.
Jack Caviness said:You do realize that Judas is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew name Judah, don't you? Now how you can incorporate that into a paper is up to you.
I stumbled upon something about this and was not sure if I should follow up on it. I think I will. Thanks!
Thank you every one! Going off-topic to discuss controversies might be more helpful than distracting to me. I don't mind at all if anyone wants to point me to controversial resources in the Logos library or on the Logos blog somewhere. We need to keep within forum rules, but the Logos library is wide enough that I think we can do that.
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Kathleen Marie said:
I need to understand the big picture, and that is always going to include controversies. Please direct me to alternative overviews! I love to include diversity. My experience with my current school is that as long as my paper is footnoted and in full Chicago format, they allow me full freedom to include diverse ideas and sources. My first paper was graded harshly, but my later papers were all given 100%. The main difference was amount of formatting and the number of footnotes. My goal is to learn as much as I can as fast as I can, and that includes practicing what I am allowed to practice with my current school. I am respectful when I don't have permissions, but run with those that I do have.
I don't think I'd paint the Old Testament as 'alternative'/'diverse', nor the New, for that matter. Smiling. Start with who got shipped by the Assyrians per both the OT and Assyrian records. Then, who actually returned. Then, where most Israelites lived, at the time of Jesus.
That said, jews/Judah has almost nothing to do with Matthew's lineage sequence, beyond the obvious entry of Joseph, of course.
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DMB said:
I don't think I'd paint the Old Testament as 'alternative'/'diverse', nor the New, for that matter. Smiling. Start with who got shipped by the Assyrians per both the OT and Assyrian records. Then, who actually returned. Then, where most Israelites lived, at the time of Jesus.
That said, jews/Judah has almost nothing to do with Matthew's lineage sequence, beyond the obvious entry of Joseph, of course.
I think I understand. I think I understand enough to know where to start studying. I keep a folder on my browser toolbar called "Current Paper". I have bookmarked this thread and saved it in that folder. So even if I don't 100% know exactly what you mean, then I will be able to come back and review.
I have been looking at some maps and skimming some encyclopedias. It is the areas that I know the least, that will be the source of my thesis. The more I look at this, the more I realize that I must learn if I want to attempt this.
The school is being good about not requiring me to parrot their denomination, as long as my paper is polished looking and what I write is swallowed up in footnotes. I am interested in this topic. I want to know more. I want to know even more than what I will include in the paper.
Last night, in my studies, I was thinking that I should do a topic study on "Messiah". I suddenly realized that I really don't know as much as I thought I did. More encyclopedia and atlas reading and the video series should supply me with more keywords.
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DMB said:Allen Browne said:
Since Jews are largely descendants of Judah ...
Not to intrude on Kathleen's quest, but really? ...
Okay, the connection is more etymological than genealogical. Chronicles certainly held out the hope of "all Israel" redeemed through the returned exiles of Judah, and Matthew 1 is talking about a descendant of Judah born to save his people.
Like you say, that's probably as much as we should say here.
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Allen Browne said:DMB said:Allen Browne said:
Since Jews are largely descendants of Judah ...
Not to intrude on Kathleen's quest, but really? ...
Well, your comment motivated me to see if recent DNA progress gave clues on where everyone ended up (jews). As best I can see, it's pretty loosey-goosey DNA-wise (limited sampling), and names are touch and go. But I may have learned why Paul trek'd north from the coast, to Iconium, given the 'end' was in sight (being a lazy hiker, I'd of stuck to the coast).
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Allen Browne said:
Okay, the connection is more etymological than genealogical. Chronicles certainly held out the hope of "all Israel" redeemed through the returned exiles of Judah, and Matthew 1 is talking about a descendant of Judah born to save his people.
Like you say, that's probably as much as we should say here.
DMB said:Well, your comment motivated me to see if recent DNA progress gave clues on where everyone ended up (jews). As best I can see, it's pretty loosey-goosey DNA-wise (limited sampling), and names are touch and go. But I may have learned why Paul trek'd north from the coast, to Iconium, given the 'end' was in sight (being a lazy hiker, I'd of stuck to the coast).
Your responses are riddled with words and phrases that I can use to search Logos, that I never would have come up with on my own. I cannot search the full Logos library without being informed of the most common controversies. Thank you both.
Are there books in Logos that will discuss in depth some of the topics that you two are mentioning and alluding to?
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Well, Kathleen, the area that caught your attention (Matthew geneology) is fraught with many issues, and unsolved speculation. Judah is easy enough ... he was a major predictor of the messiah, well before Jesus arrived. But some of the women are curious, and the inclusion of the worst king ever (made God so mad, it ended in the whole shebang being destroyed ... captivity, etc) was in the list. So, your choice is not easy.
Regarding resources per my comment, most are archaeology discoveries linked to OT passages (here and there).
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Raymond Brown does a nice job on the genealogy
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Kathleen Marie said:
Are there books in Logos that will discuss in depth some of the topics that you two are mentioning and alluding to?
Any commentaries on Mt 1 will probably help. My favorite is Dick France, The Gospel of Matthew (NICNT series).
Or this simple blog post provides some suggestions and quotes: Why ancestry.com? (Mt 1:1-17).
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MJ. Smith said:
Raymond Brown does a nice job on the genealogy
In a specific book, or in all his books?
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Allen Browne said:Kathleen Marie said:
Are there books in Logos that will discuss in depth some of the topics that you two are mentioning and alluding to?
Any commentaries on Mt 1 will probably help. My favorite is Dick France, The Gospel of Matthew (NICNT series).
Or this simple blog post provides some suggestions and quotes: Why ancestry.com? (Mt 1:1-17).
Thank you so much!!! My library has the commentary, so I can start using their copy immediately while I save up for the Logos version. The blog post is great!
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Kathleen Marie said:MJ. Smith said:
Raymond Brown does a nice job on the genealogy
In a specific book, or in all his books?
I think Brown, Raymond E. The Birth of the Messiah: A Commentary on the Infancy Narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. New Updated Edition. New York; London: Yale University Press, 1993. carries most of the argument. Somehow, in my mind this is also relevant Brown, Raymond E. Reading the Gospels with the Church: From Christmas through Easter. Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock, 2008.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Here is a broader idea: search all of your commentaries about Matthew for the word "Judah."
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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DMB said:
Well, Kathleen, the area that caught your attention (Matthew geneology) is fraught with many issues, and unsolved speculation. Judah is easy enough ... he was a major predictor of the messiah, well before Jesus arrived. But some of the women are curious, and the inclusion of the worst king ever (made God so mad, it ended in the whole shebang being destroyed ... captivity, etc) was in the list. So, your choice is not easy.
Regarding resources per my comment, most are archaeology discoveries linked to OT passages (here and there).
I think I am going to try and focus on genealogy, and leave as much of the archeology and genetics and science for another paper. I'm not sure yet how to judge the genealogy, or if I even want to judge it. I am not sure I must judge it for every possible theses. I am still far too uninformed to know that yet. To those of you that know so much more than me, maybe it is obvious to you that I must judge the people in the genealogies, and prove each part accurate to use them. I'm going to childishly explore for a bit longer and see what I discover, before I decide this is all entirely impossible.
I have some time. I am learning. It is all good.
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MJ. Smith said:
I think Brown, Raymond E. The Birth of the Messiah: A Commentary on the Infancy Narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. New Updated Edition. New York; London: Yale University Press, 1993. carries most of the argument. Somehow, in my mind this is also relevant Brown, Raymond E. Reading the Gospels with the Church: From Christmas through Easter. Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock, 2008.
Thanks! I saw both those books when I searched for the author. They both look really interesting to read.
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Justin Gatlin said:
Here is a broader idea: search all of your commentaries about Matthew for the word "Judah."
I just bought some legacy libraries. I don't even know what I have yet. This will be a fun search! Thanks!
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I was reading through some of my new commentaries last night, along with those I already had. So, almost all commentaries treat the first chapter of Matthew the same. I now fully understand why we are warned not to START with the commentaries. Of course we should consult them, but this project has illustrated why I will want to heed that warning.
I did learn that the focus on Abraham and David has to do with the promises made to them by God. I don't think God promised Judah anything, but I need to find that out for sure. But I still want to focus on the scion of Judah, not David or Abraham. I want to explore the tribe of Judah, and not the wider group from Abraham and not the narrower group from David.
So much focus is on judging the women. That is not my intended focus, even if I am not sure what will be my focus. I think I might be offended at the way the women are discussed, but I don't want to get distracted. I think there is something more here to explore. I think I am glad I started this project this uninformed.
Why was the tribe of Judah chosen for both David and Jesus? David did not just spring forth from Abraham, without the formation of the tribes.
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Kathleen Marie said:
Why was the tribe of Judah chosen for both David and Jesus?
Try using Factbook to look up the entry on Judah and see what your linked dictionaries say about how Judah came to prominence.
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Kathleen Marie said:
I don' think God promised Judah anything, but I need to find that out for sure.
Oh my. Poor Judah got canceled?
Gen 49:10 (again)
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Graham Criddle said:
Try using Factbook to look up the entry on Judah and see what your linked dictionaries say about how Judah came to prominence.
I started with just Judah in Matthew, then moved on to Judah in factbook, got overwhelmed and moved to passage guides of Matthew 1. It is time to go back to factbook of Judah with what I have learned in Matthew. Thanks for pointing me back there! I need to remember to keep going back and forth.
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DMB said:Kathleen Marie said:
I don' think God promised Judah anything, but I need to find that out for sure.
Oh my. Poor Judah got canceled?
Gen 49:10 (again)
Logos lists this scripture as spoken by Jacob and addressed to the sons of Judah. This was one the scriptures that started me on this project and that caught my attention the most. The commentaries on Matthew are hyper-focused on the promises of God. When they don't list this as significant, I am assuming it is because they see it as Jacob talking to Judah and his descendants? I didn't forget this scripture, but I am trying to figure out what to do with it.
One of the commentaries said the Messiah is about fulfilled promises of God, and then narrows into Abraham and David, based upon that definition. I think that might be what is keeping the other commentaries so narrow. Not wanting to start a debate, but if there are groups that do NOT agree with that definition, what are they, so I can be sure to search logos for resource books that will have a wider or different definition. I'm thinking this will be in the Messianic libraries and the denominations with the larger canons of scripture. I will start randomly searching the dictionaries that I do already have for "Messiah".
I am searching around in the church fathers, and I am finding bits about adoption and Mary and Joseph being from the same tribe. I know I need to follow up on that. The ancient practices of patrimony are interesting and different from our own. How this applies to salvation and the gentile church seems important. I really want to poke into this for a possible thesis.
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Kathleen Marie said:
When they don't list this as significant, I am assuming it is because they see it as Jacob talking to Judah and his descendants?
Perhaps they are ones who do not believe that prophecy is possible, because no one—even under inspiration from God—can predict the future. Judah is important in this line because he is the ancestor of David, and Messianic prophecies definitely tie David to Christ. Judah also gave his name to the tribe from which David—and ultimately Christ came.
Now, I have probably violated someone's understanding of the forum guidelines [:P]
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Jack Caviness said:Kathleen Marie said:
When they don't list this as significant, I am assuming it is because they see it as Jacob talking to Judah and his descendants?
Perhaps they are ones who do not believe that prophecy is possible, because no one—even under inspiration from God—can predict the future. Judah is important in this line because he is the ancestor of David, and Messianic prophecies definitely tie David to Christ. Judah also gave his name to the tribe from which David—and ultimately Christ came.
Now, I have probably violated someone's understanding of the forum guidelines
This helps so much! Okay, yeah, I have stumbled upon this key difference in commentaries, but it is one of so many new ideas. I am not yet applying these fire-hosed ideas that are just about knocking me to the ground. This really helps. Not just with this project, but as an example of how to process what I read in commentaries and how to better search for the ones I need to complete a project.
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DMB said:
Gen 49:10 (again)
I like to read and post on this forum from my Raspberry Pi running the default RPI Linux, because the text is so naturally large without any modifications. But it means that links don't always work, and I need to use another device for Logos.
I just brought this one scripture up in a passage guide on my Windows laptop. Yesterday I purchased some Legacy 5 libraries and was feeling guilty and conflicted about those purchases. Until I ran this search. I have NEVER seen anything like this in my software. I think it is partly due to this verse being well cited, but I have run a couple more searches, and it is like I have new software. Okay, now, finally I can get something done!
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Kathleen Marie said:
When they don't list this as significant, I am assuming it is because they see it as Jacob talking to Judah and his descendants?
Don't overthink Logos or underestimate it's inadvertant theological bias. They don't list it as "significant" only because they already had their maximum count for "significant" - nothing more, nothing less. And significance is topic dependent.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Kathleen Marie said:
When they don't list this as significant, I am assuming it is because they see it as Jacob talking to Judah and his descendants?
Don't overthink Logos or underestimate it's inadvertant theological bias. They don't list it as "significant" only because they already had their maximum count for "significant" - nothing more, nothing less. And significance is topic dependent.
Thank you! I will be happy to read a bit from all biases. I am not afraid of bias, as long as I have multiple biases to compare. I think I need to look again at some of the less popular Legacy 5 starter libraries. Since the older resources seem to be better tagged than the newer ones, and I can finally search, I want to make sure my searches are as diverse as possible.
I wish Messianic libraries started earlier. And the non-standard Verbum libraries.
I am learning as much about logos software as I am about Matthew and Judah. That is always how it is when I take on projects too big for me.
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Kathleen Marie said:
I don't know what I don't know. Can anyone point me in a direction? Maybe I should just drop this, but I am not quite ready to do that. I never noticed that it is Leah, not Rachel, that is the line of Jesus. I am following along in a reading plan with a church and the Pastor's comments about Leah and Judah have set off a fireworks of thoughts in my head that were not there in previous readings of Matthew and Genesis.
Hi Kathleen Marie,
I'll attempt to do this without violating the "No Theology" rule.
I was going to try and type this myself but to make it logos library related..;) I found this snip-it from the Logos/Verbum resource The Catholic Bible Dictionary. The snip-it contains most everything I would have shared anyway...
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i. judah, son of jacob
Judah was the fourth son of Jacob; he was born of Leah (Gen 29:35, 35:23, 46:12; Exod 1:2). He shares the spotlight with Joseph in Gen 37–50. Influential among his brothers, he was able to prevent the murder of Joseph by suggesting to his brothers that they sell him to Arab merchants headed for Egypt (Gen 37:26–27). Later when his brothers met up with him in Egypt, Joseph demanded that Benjamin—who had remained behind in Canaan with Jacob—should come to him. Judah pleaded with Jacob to allow Benjamin to return to Egypt with him; Judah even offered his own life as “surety” for Benjamin’s safe return (Gen 43:8–9). Soon after, he took responsibility as substitute for Benjamin’s apparent theft of the cup (Gen 44:18–34).
In spite of his heroism elsewhere, the description of Judah in Gen 38 is less than flattering. Judah married Bathshua, a Canaanite, and had three sons by her: Er, Onan, and Shelah (Gen 38:2, 12; 1 Chr 2:3). Er wed Tamar, but died before fathering any children by her. Onan then was obligated to fulfill the levirate custom and accept his sister-in-law as his wife, but he refused to consummate the union and died for his sin. Fearing for the fate of his remaining son, Judah withheld Tamar’s just rights under custom, refusing to give her Shelah as her husband. Tamar, however, outwitted Judah. She dressed as a harlot and drew him into having intercourse with her. She conceived and gave birth to twins, Perez and Zerah; both were finally acknowledged by Judah to be his. Despite this immoral scenario, the Messianic line of Judah was continued and prevented from dying out (Matt 1:2–3).
Hahn, Scott, ed. Catholic Bible Dictionary. New York; London; Toronto; Sydney; Auckland: Doubleday, 2009.
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You can most likely run with those points in all kinds of directions....
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Okay, I think I got this. Thank you everyone!
I think Logos might have updated yesterday. I know the legacy 5 libraries made a difference, so I spent a bit more and my search fields blew up even more. These last couple choices were a bit "crazy'' to see what would happen, and it worked. LOL. I have different biases side by side linking to more and more and more stuff. I put in a couple interlibrary loan requests and got a couple more things through the library Hoopla online access.
But I could not have done this without you all. Thanks! You got me over the hump. I have bookmarked the thread and will reread it if I get stuck. Some things will need to be repeated and reread a few times, as I understand more and more. But I think I got this.
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Roy said:
Hi Kathleen Marie,
I'll attempt to do this without violating the "No Theology" rule.
...
Hahn, Scott, ed. Catholic Bible Dictionary. New York; London; Toronto; Sydney; Auckland: Doubleday, 2009.
You can most likely run with those points in all kinds of directions....
Thanks!! We cross posted and I did not see this. Scott Hahn writes good stuff! I will look for more from him. I like this.
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And the red helped!
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Kathleen Marie said:
And the red helped!
Your Welcome...
This resource also has a couple interesting points...
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE), 1915 Edition
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Judah was the fourth son born to Jacob by Leah in Paddan-aram (Gen. 29:35, etc.). Of this patriarch’s life only scanty details remain to us. He turned his brothers from their purpose to slay Joseph, persuading them to sell him to the Midianites at Dothan (37:26–28). A dark stain is left upon his memory by the story told in ch 38. Reuben forfeited the rights of primogeniture by an act of infamy. Simeon and Levi, who came next in order, were passed over because of their cruel and treacherous conduct at Shechem. Judah, therefore, inherited the honors and responsibilities of the firstborn (ch. 34; 35:22; 49:5ff.). On the occasion of their first visit to Egypt, Reuben acted as spokesman for his brothers (42:22, 37). Then the leadership passed to Judah (43:3; 44:14–34). The sons of Joseph evidently looked askance upon Judah’s promotion, and their own claims to hegemony were backed by considerable resources (49:22ff.). The rivalry between the two tribes, thus early visible, culminated in the disruption of the kingdom. To Judah, the “lion’s whelp,” a prolonged dominion was assured (49:9ff.). Many scholars think that the distinguished part played by Judah, the son of Jacob, reflects the important role of the tribe of Judah, which seemed to result from the prominence of certain families at the time of the patriarchs.
Hunter, S. F. “Judah.” Edited by Geoffrey W Bromiley. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised. Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979–1988.
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Those items/points might speak to why the 10 northern tribes were so ready to get out from under Judah and let Joseph rule.
Not about Judah specifically but about his influence on future events.
Now I need to hit the sheets...
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As is "Jude"
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Roy said:
This resource also has a couple interesting points...
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE), 1915 Edition
Thanks! I was able to cut and paste the text, with colors intact, into my notes in Logos. I am hoping to find some academic articles on some of these ideas that you have highlighted. "Primogeniture" is quite a word! I wonder what will come up for some searches that include that word. What fun!
Although concise, these entries are loaded with so many ideas terrific that I need to read them over and over as I progress with my research. They point me in the right direction. Thanks!!!
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Kathleen Marie said:
Note that in Matthew 13:55 he is called Judas. Perhaps Jude is a desire to avoid the more unsavory Greek equivalent of Judah. [^o)]
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Jack Caviness said:Kathleen Marie said:
Note that in Matthew 13:55 he is called Judas. Perhaps Jude is a desire to avoid the more unsavory Greek equivalent of Judah.
Interesting that a name attached to a Messiah could become a name attached to betrayal. There is something more to follow here.
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Kathleen Marie said:
Interesting that a name attached to a Messiah could become a name attached to betrayal.
I would be careful about pushing this too far:
[quote]
Tal Ilan has made a comprehensive study of the some twenty-three hundred Jewish personal names that are attested from 330 BC to AD 200. Ilan found that 150 male biblical names served 73.4 percent of the population (Ilan 2002, 5). What is striking is that the names of the greatest biblical heroes (such as Abraham, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, and Elijah) were not used by Jews of the Second Temple period. This is also true of the names recorded in the Aramaic Elephantine Papyri from Egypt (5th–3rd c. BC): “Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Samuel, or David … do not occur here” (Cohen, 97).
The ten most popular male names in the corpus Ilan studied are Simon, Joseph, Judah, Eleazar, Yohanan, Joshua, Hananiah, Jonathan, Mattathias, and Menahem (Ilan 2002, 56). In the second century BC, the rise of the Maccabean family created an interest in naming Jewish boys after the names of the brothers of this family (Yohanan, Simon, Judah, Eleazar, and Jonathan), as well as the father (Mattathias).Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Very interesting, Justin. I was also impressed with Josephus' formal name. Reading a novel, I was reminded of earlier days growing up ... Jacob begat Judas (in the Inspired Translation, of course).
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DMB said:
Very interesting, Justin. I was also impressed with Josephus' formal name. Reading a novel, I was reminded of earlier days growing up ... Jacob begat Judas (in the Inspired Translation, of course).
Inspired Translation? Sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about. Sometimes I think you are making jokes that I don't understand. Other times I think you are talking about topics that I know nothing about. I think you must be much smarter than me, and that I cannot keep up. I'd rather admit my ignorance than have you think I am being rude, so I am just warning you, that I often have NO idea what you are talking about.
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Kathleen Marie said:
Inspired Translation? Sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about. Sometimes I think you are making jokes that I don't understand. Other times I think you are talking about topics that I know nothing about. I think you must be much smarter than me, and that I cannot keep up
There is a group of Christians that adamantly accept one English translation and only that translation. That is the translation to which DMB is referring. Because the customer base is so broad, there are always things one thinks are "common knowledge" that are not. And the makeup of the group is constantly changing - I got caught up in controversy for using a term of endearment that had gotten no response a few years ago but an irate response last year. Don't assume that others are smarter than you, assume that they are knowledgeable about areas different than those you are knowledgeable about. Never assume that your knowledge will match DMB's on the application of text processing/AI on 2nd temple writings ... and take into account she is a preacher's daughter from a very logic driven denomination.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sorry, Kathleen. As MJ hints at, it's the highly regarded (by many; not me) King James Version. To be honest, when I read in my novel (the begats; the lady was putting her benefactor to sleep purposely), I didn't immediately recognize it ... I had to google the KJV! That shows how time erases old memories in favor of the new.
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Kathleen Marie said:
Sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about.
Don't worry. After a few years, that happens less often with DMB. [:)]
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:Kathleen Marie said:
Sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about.
Don't worry. After a few years, that happens less often with DMB.
Decoding DMB's posts is always a fun challenge. lol
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Kathleen Marie said:
Technically, Judah (the son of the patriarch Jacob) is listed as an ancestor of Jesus. And this is important to the book of Matthew. Important in ways that I want to explore.
Without getting into any arguments, John P. Meier writes: "The Epistle to the Hebrews does mention—as an apparent obstacle to its thesis that Jesus is the high priest of the new covenant—that he was of the tribe of Judah, not Levi (Hebrews 7:14)."
Meier continues: "The NT never states that Mary was of the tribe of Judah or of the house of David. The only indication of Mary’s lineage is given in Luke 1, where Elizabeth is said to be both “of the daughters of Aaron” (Luke 1:5, hence of an elite priestly line within the tribe of Levi) and a “kinswoman” of Mary (v 36, syggenis, a vague term). If we take Luke at his word, Mary would be of levitical, and perhaps Aaronic, descent."
Here's something for you to explore.
Check out my channel with Christian music in Youtube:@olli-pekka-pappi. Latest song added on Palm Sunday, April 13th 2025: Isaiah 53, The Suffering Servant of the Lord. Have a blessed Holy Week and Easter!
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