Search septets in Revelation and Daniel

I made a similar post some time ago, but still not seen appearing in this forum. So I do it again. There are septets in Revelation, e.g. 7 churches, 7 seals, 7 bowls, etc. Can Logos 9 search all septets in Revelation and Daniel (which has 2 languages--Aramaic and Hebrew)? If yes, how to use this function in Logos 9? Thanks.

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Roy

It's there just a few posts down...

and someone did answer you....

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/205770.aspx

"Find all 7-Item groups in Revelation and Daniel"

Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197714#Comment_1197714

Theo, just to add to my previous post already referenced try searching for seven* (including the * symbol) instead of just "seven". This will pull results such as seventh and seventy as well.

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197746#Comment_1197746

Thanks to Morgan and Roy, for your help. But, sorry, I would like to have more about that. For example, there are 7 “blessed” in Revelation. You cannot search “seven” there and see the result. Another example,

There is a chiasm of eternal items in Rev 14:6-20, also containing 7 units, as—

Another example, there are yet also 7 units of signs introduced by the same Greek root orao (italics in the following). This can be taken as a septet with a summary and chiasm—

12:1 “A great sign appeared in heaven, a woman…” [summary]

12:3 “Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold a great red dragon…”

13:1 “…Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea…”

13:11 “Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth…”

14:1 “And vow, I saw a Lamb standing on Mount Zion…”

14:6 “And I saw another angel, flying in midheaven…”

14:14 “Then I looked and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like ….”

Each Greek root orao starts a significant topic.

All the above examples show that you cannot search “seven” and get what I want. I also have other examples like those. Sorry. But thanks for your help.

Anybody can help? Thanks in advance.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197827#Comment_1197827

My guess is that most of this can only be derived from actually studying the text.

Different people would probably have different views on the significance of these patterns you are describing and so any tagging Faithlife were to provide would be subject to (probably quite considerable) debate

One thing that might help is to use the Concordance Tool and search for words that just occur seven times in Revelation (see the red outline in the screenshot to show where this is specified. I have set the Tool to look at roots, but you can do the same things for lemmas or English words as well

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197842#Comment_1197842

Thanks Graham very much for helping me a lot. I believe that if only through searching the septets we could understand the book of Revelation more easily, for it is obvious that John deliberately set lots of septets in the book, and he must have wanted to give us some message through such a planning. Now I still have questions—

(1) What is the difference between Heading and Count which are at the top right corner?

(2) When in searching the lemma, if I click “plural” there appeared terms (e.g. ἀποκτείνω, γίνομαι) that did not otherwise appear. Why?

(3) When in searching the lemma, if I click “Words of Christ 14” it becomes “Words of Christ 4” (and I saw 4 entries). What does “14” mean?

I use NASB95.

Thanks in advance.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197935#Comment_1197935

(1) What is the difference between Heading and Count which are at the top right corner?

These control the order in which the results are given.

(2) When in searching the lemma, if I click “plural” there appeared terms (e.g. ἀποκτείνω, γίνομαι) that did not otherwise appear. Why?

Did not appear where? What selection parameters did you have set? Bible book? Count?

(3) When in searching the lemma, if I click “Words of Christ 14” it becomes “Words of Christ 4” (and I saw 4 entries). What does “14” mean?

As "Words of Christ" is not a lemma, I am confused. Screen shots might help.

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197947#Comment_1197947

Sorry for my confusing words. Explanation of my former Question (2)--

In the screenshot, A[1] and B[1] each has the lemma chosen.

A[2] has the plural NOT chosen.

B[2] has the plural chosen, here you can see the 2 Greek terms in B[3]. These 2 Greek terms do not appear in A[3].

In A[2], no matter I chose both singular and plural or I chose neither of them those 2 Greek terms will still be missing in A[3].

In the following there is another screenshot for explanation of my former Question (3).

C[2] has "Words of Christ 14" NOT chosen.

D[2] has "Words of Christ 4" chosen.

I just don't know what these "14" and "4" represent.

NOTE ALSO that in B, "Words of Christ" (NOT chosen ) is followed by "3".

Thanks.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197947#Comment_1197947

As "Words of Christ" is not a lemma, I am confused. Screen shots might help.

Words of Christ is one of the filter options on the lefthand menu

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197953#Comment_1197953

The key thing here is that the filters are cumulative.

So, take for example, the word οὖς that appears in D in your screenshot (I know it isn't in the screenshot but you would see it in those results if you scrolled down). That means that this word appears 7 times in Revelation spoken by Jesus. But you wouldn't find it if you scrolled down C in your screenshot.

That is because it appears 8 times altogether in the book, with the eighth occasion (13:9) not being spoken by Jesus

This explains why terms may appear when adding additional filters - with these terms not being present in the unfiltered results.

C[2] has "Words of Christ 14" NOT chosen.

D[2] has "Words of Christ 4" chosen.

I just don't know what these "14" and "4" represent.

These simply show how many matching terms are present in the current set of filtered results - so in the first case there are 14 lemmas that appear in Revelation where Jesus is speaking, in the second case there are 4 lemmas that appear in Revelation only within words of Jesus

Does this help clarify what you are seeing?.

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197955#Comment_1197955

Thanks again to Graham for your explanation. I am much clearer now. Yet I still have questions--

(a) I said "In A[2], no matter I chose both singular and plural OR I chose neither of them, those 2 Greek terms will still be missing in A[3]." My logic is: those 2 Greek terms appeared when I chose plural, they should also have appeared when I chose both singular and plural.

(b) When I chose neither singular nor plural, what does this mean?

(c) This question is related to how I use forum tools (I was silly not to learn it first). When I want to quote, say, Graham's words, what steps should I do?

Thanks in advance.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198023#Comment_1198023

(a) I said "In A[2], no matter I chose both singular and plural OR I chose neither of them, those 2 Greek terms will still be missing in A[3]." My logic is: those 2 Greek terms appeared when I chose plural, they should also have appeared when I chose both singular and plural.

It's the same principle as discussed previously relating to Words of Christ

They won't be in A3 because they don't, without qualification, appear just 7 times in Revelation.

Taking the first one for example, it appears 15 times in Revelation but only 7 times as plural - which is why it appears in B3

It's the same case for the second one as well

(c) This question is related to how I use forum tools (I was silly not to learn it first). When I want to quote, say, Graham's words, what steps should I do?

Highlight the text you want to quote and then click the Quote button at the bottom of that entry.

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198031#Comment_1198031

Thanks to Graham.

I am trying to describe the case with my own words (if I say anything wrong, please correct me).

When we click both the singular and the plural, though plural alone renders more terms than the singular, the ultimate threshold set by the computer (Logos 9) is still 7 items as a group (septet, no more no less), and so the ultimate result does not have the 2 Greek terms in B[3].

On the other hand, when we click neither the singular nor the plural, we just give no command to the computer, and so the computer only generates results as being NOT dictated (whether the result is the same as both singular and plural simultaneously clicked or other ways, we just need not care.)

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198059#Comment_1198059

I may be incorrect but I believe the count is applied only once - to the root without regard to how they are distributed across number.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198059#Comment_1198059

When we click both the singular and the plural, though plural alone renders more terms than the singular, the ultimate threshold set by the computer (Logos 9) is still 7 items as a group (septet, no more no less), and so the ultimate result does not have the 2 Greek terms in B[3].

On the other hand, when we click neither the singular nor the plural, we just give no command to the computer, and so the computer only generates results as being NOT dictated (whether the result is the same as both singular and plural simultaneously clicked or other ways, we just need not care.)

I'm afraid I can't follow what you are saying.

Could you work through another example again, with screenshots, to help me understand better?

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198076#Comment_1198076

I think I need to discard my simple logic and hold on what Graham earlier taught.

Could Graham teach me how to understand the “14” in “Words of Christ 14”? Could you tell me how to trace these "14" items? (You don't need to list out all the 14 items.) Thanks.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198081#Comment_1198081

Could Graham teach me how to understand the “14” in “Words of Christ 14”? Could you tell me how to trace these "14" items? (You don't need to list out all the 14 items.)

I thought it might be easier to reduce the scope of what we are looking at, so I've just focused on Revelation 2-4 (clearly this will give a different set of "sevens" but hopefully they will demonstrate the point.

The Field section on the left shows that there are six sets of seven and that five of them contain some words spoken by Jesus.

This matches the 42 count at the top of the panel on the right - for the six sets of seven.

Opening the 1st, 3rd and 4th enables us to see what is going on:

the 1st does not contain any words of Jesus - so this is the "sixth" set of seven
in the 3rd, all of the seven are spoken by Jesus
in the 4th, only one of the seven (outlined in red) is spoken by Jesus but because there is at least one that matches it adds to the count in the left panel

Does this help clarify?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198116#Comment_1198116

Opening the 1st, 3rd and 4th enables us to see what is going on:

the 1st does not contain any words of Jesus - so this is the "sixth" set of seven

in the 3rd, all of the seven are spoken by Jesus

in the 4th, only one of the seven (outlined in red) is spoken by Jesus but because there is at least one that matches it adds to the count in the left panel

I must admit to being confused by these "counts" for Words of Christ.

the 1st set is the only one that does not contain any Words of Christ --> hence the count of 5 as opposed to 6

when you click the Words of Christ box you see that only 3 of those sets contain 7 words of Christ
(the 4th and 2nd sets don't contribute the required number of words, but they contribute to the count of 5 in the original display)

Then explain Bible Text which changes from 6 to 5 when clicked (it is connected with RI's and lemmas that are not translated)!!

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198145#Comment_1198145

the 1st set is the only one that does not contain any Words of Christ --> hence the count of 5 as opposed to 6

Agreed

when you click the Words of Christ box you see that only 3 sets contain 7 words of Christ

(the 4th and 2nd sets don't contribute the required number of words, but they contribute to the count of 5 in the original display)

Yes, I mentioned the fourth set in my reply above

The second set doesn't feature because, for some reason, the result from 3:9 and the last occurrence from 3:18 is excluded. The same thing is seen if doing a Bible Search - and I admit I don't understand why they don't appear.

Then explain Bible Text which changes from 6 to 5 when clicked (it is connected with RI's and lemmas that are not translated)!!

I don't see that, can you provide a screenshot?

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198116#Comment_1198116

Does this help clarify?

I am clarified and thanks to Graham.

So if I want to exhaust all the septets of Revelation, I need to choose ONLY ONE filter in one time, and choose ONLY ONE possibility (e.g. lemma vs root, for this, of course, I can only choose one). Otherwise I cannot exhaust. And thus the whole process is quite slow. Do you have any way to quickly do it?

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198151#Comment_1198151

Does this help clarify?

So if I want to exhaust all the septets of Revelation, I need to choose ONLY ONE filter in one time, and choose ONLY ONE possibility (e.g. lemma vs root, for this, of course, I can only choose one). Otherwise I cannot exhaust. And thus the whole process is quite slow. Do you have any way to quickly do it?

I would have thought if you are interested in septets then you shouldn’t apply any filters. As soon as you do, you are not looking at septets in Revelation but, for example “septets in Revelation spoken by Jesus” which is a different thing.

Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to do?

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198145#Comment_1198145

I must admit to being confused by these "counts" for Words of Christ.

Your problem is that you don't know that "Words of Christ" includes the ACTION of Christ speaking, not necessarily the CONTENT of Christ speaking (what content He speaks). This is the definition of Logos 9 here at this juncture.

when you click the Words of Christ box you see that only 3 sets contain 7 words of Christ

Here is my screenshot--All the four have 7 "Words of Christ".

(the 4th and 2nd sets don't contribute the required number of words, but they contribute to the count of 5 in the original display)

If you use NASB95 (don't use NIV), the problems will be gone. Here are the screenshot of the 4th and 2nd sets.

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198153#Comment_1198153

Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to do?

What I want to do is to find out ALL the septets in Revelation, no matter words spoken by Christ or not.

Since each time when I click a filter, the result could be a bit different or very different. Thus, I need to click ONLY ONE filter at one time, and record down the result. And then, I click another filter, and record down another result. And so on. After I have done all the ONE-filter-at-one-time, I can record all the different results. And then I need to add up all these results, and thus find out ALL the septets in Revelation, no matter words spoken by Christ or not.

That's why I said that I want to exhaust ALL the septets in Revelation. So this process must be quite slow, but it is valuable and is what I want. That's why I am asking somebody who can have a quicker way to exhaust it.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198150#Comment_1198150

The second set doesn't feature because, for some reason, the result from 3:9 and the last occurrence from 3:18 is excluded.

There is a problem with {Speaker <Person Jesus>} in 3:18 because it will either include the first two occurrences of the lemma (with range Rev 2-4) or the last occurrence (with range Rev 3:18). However, the actual Words-of-Christ field does not have that issue and it includes all three occurrences. You have to use the phrase "so that" to see this because the field only includes words at the surface level (the translation). Therefore, the second set does not feature only because the lemma in Rev 3:9 is not translated!

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198174#Comment_1198174

That's why I said that I want to exhaust ALL the septets in Revelation. So this process must be quite slow, but it is valuable and is what I want. That's why I am asking somebody who can have a quicker way to exhaust it.

There is no quicker way because Concordance provides all the necessary parameters for a bible. Just beware that septets depend on the bible you use, especially for Words of Christ.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198185#Comment_1198185

There is a problem with {Speaker <Person Jesus>} in 3:18 because it will either include the first two occurrences of the lemma (with range Rev 2-4) or the last occurrence (with range Rev 3:18).

Thanks Dave - do you know why this is the case? Is it a bug?

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198174#Comment_1198174

Since each time when I click a filter, the result could be a bit different or very different. Thus, I need to click ONLY ONE filter at one time, and record down the result.

For what you want to do, I don't think you should be clicking any filter.

Once you have the list constrained to lemmas (or roots) that occur only seven times, you have the list of septets (unless the issue Dave mentions affects that).

So you then can examine each of those lemmas (roots) in turn.

As soon as you click on one, you are no longer looking at things that occur seven times in Revelation.

For example, if you click plural you will get a list of lemmas that occur seven times when used in the plural sense. But the lemma itself will appear more than seven times in all forms.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198150#Comment_1198150

Then explain Bible Text which changes from 6 to 5 when clicked (it is connected with RI's and lemmas that are not translated)!!

I don't see that, can you provide a screenshot?

Sorry, I was using ESV at that time. However, the lemma hina is omitted for the reason given above (not translated at Rev 3:9) and replaced by lemma idou. The lemma count of 8 causes it to be excluded from the original list, but included as bible text because the occurrence at Rev 3:9 is not translated!

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198193#Comment_1198193

Thanks Dave

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198190#Comment_1198190

For example, if you click plural you will get a list of lemmas that occur seven times when used in the plural sense. But the lemma itself will appear more than seven times in all forms.

So long it is a septet, no matter in plural or due to other filters, IS EXACTLY what I want. So I want to exhaust all septets in ALL POSSIBILITIES/due to ALL FILTERS in the book.

If John aims at setting a septet in, say, plural, OK, I need to know that. So now, I also need to find out whether or not John did deliberately set those septets. If he did not, OK, I don't need to exhaust all septets in ALL POSSIBILITIES.

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198173#Comment_1198173

I must admit to being confused by these "counts" for Words of Christ.

Your problem is that you don't know that

Hi Dave, I don't know whether my words posted yesterday were too impolite. English is not my first language. If I was too impolite, I am sorry. By the way, what do you think about what I told you yesterday (in which I had 3 points for you)?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198173#Comment_1198173

when you click the Words of Christ box you see that only 3 sets contain 7 words of Christ

Here is my screenshot--All the four have 7 "Words of Christ".

Apologies, I was looking at ESV.

I corrected my original text to read "only 3 of those sets" i.e. 3 of the original sets. Lemma meta was added as the fourth set (it has too many occurrences for the original list).

I must admit to being confused by these "counts" for Words of Christ.

Your problem is that you don't know that "Words of Christ" includes the ACTION of Christ speaking, not necessarily the CONTENT of Christ speaking (what content He speaks). This is the definition of Logos 9 here at this juncture.

I was confused because of the way that the "counts" are applied (e.g. 6 lemmas, of which only 5 are in Bible Text for ESV) - not because of definition.

Concordance "Words of Christ" is a search field that applies to certain bibles ("Red letter" bibles like ESV, NASB95), and its coverage varies because of different opinions about the words that were "spoken". Logos encodes a consistent view of this in a dataset based on a Greek bible (SBLGNT) and applies it via the search term {Speaker <Person Jesus>}, so it only applies to translations with a reverse interlinear (RI) and is not used in Concordance.

Thus, it is somewhat misleading to have Words of Christ at the Lemma level of Concordance when it only applies to the Word level.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198202#Comment_1198202

Hi Dave, I don't know whether my words posted yesterday were too impolite. English is not my first language. If I was too impolite, I am sorry. By the way, do you have any opinion on what I told you yesterday?

It's ok, Theo. I did have "problems" with other areas of this tool!

I trust that my reply above satisfies your query, although I didn't provide a direct response.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198189#Comment_1198189

There is a problem with {Speaker <Person Jesus>} in 3:18 because it will either include the first two occurrences of the lemma (with range Rev 2-4) or the last occurrence (with range Rev 3:18).

Thanks Dave - do you know why this is the case? Is it a bug?

It is a bug as noted in NASB95 and in general coverage without the word term. In ESV, there is no result from Rev 3:18 (or a range of 2 verses either side). The problem extends to SBLGNT.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198201#Comment_1198201

If John aims at setting a septet in, say, plural, OK, I need to know that.

In which case, I don't see any way of doing this other than by going through each one as Dave suggested above.

So now, I also need to find out whether or not John did deliberately set those septets.

I have no idea how that could be determined!

Kenneth Neighoff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198217#Comment_1198217

Another way to do this would be to set up a collection of your commentaries on Revelation and Daniel and search for the word septets and see some of the examples they give and then try to reverse engineer it with a concordance search.

Andrew Batishko

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198150#Comment_1198150

for some reason, the result from 3:9 and the last occurrence from 3:18 is excluded. The same thing is seen if doing a Bible Search - and I admit I don't understand why they don't appear.

There are definitely some bugs related to searching for Jesus as the speaker in Revelation 3-4. I've written up a case to investigate these problems.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198253#Comment_1198253

There are definitely some bugs related to searching for Jesus as the speaker in Revelation 3-4. I've written up a case to investigate these problems.

Thanks Andrew

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198254#Comment_1198254

Thanks for the kind people's replies.

I compared Revelation with Josephus' Wars, and found out the following, as a table--

	(A) Total Greek words	(B) Total septets in Greek	(B)/(A) %
Revelation	9833	224	2%
Wars 3	14219	196	1%
Wars 4	17589	308	2%
Wars 6	12426	238	2%
Wars 7	12286	105	1%

Remember each septet has 7 items, and thus 2% actually occupies 14% (2x7) of the contents of the book, especially the items could be spreading all over and have ramifications all over the book. This, if pre-planned by John, must reveal some special message.

Also remember, there will be more septets if we include different filters and possibilities (such as roots, senses etc.) Besides, there could be septets that cannot be searched by Logos 9, such as the interludes (see below).

My way of getting total Greek words in a book is as the following screenshot (I don't know it is correct or not)--

In the above table, make sure that 20,000 is greater than 17,589, and so you could set to over 20,000.

I have questions--

(1) Is my method of searching total Greek words in a book correct?

(2) What is the difference between Greek "surface text" and Greek "content text", Greek "Bible text", "Manuscript Form", and between Heading and Count (some kind people answered before, but I still don't understand)?

(The above table just took pure "Greek" counts in Wars and pure Lemma without other filters in Revelation. Fortunately I think that there are only minor/no differences, and no affecting the above table.)

||||||

If my table is correct, then we can conclude that even Josephus' works display the same result of % as Revelation, and thus we should not overstate John's septets. Yet commentators and our common sense have seen deliberate septets set in John's Revelation, and thus we should not undervalue his labor. Especially some septets are not easily seen, for example, the one with 7 Greek terms of "blessed", and, in my opinion, there is a septet of interludes (which septet also forms a chiasm) in the bulk of the 7 seals-trumpets-bowls.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198286#Comment_1198286

I compared Revelation with Josephus' Wars, and found out the following, as a table--

(A) Total Greek words

(B) Total septets in Greek

(B)/(A) %

Revelation

9833

224

2%

Remember each septet has 7 items, and thus 2% actually occupies 14% (2x7) of the contents of the book,

(A) Total Greek Words is correct

(B) If you read it correctly, there are 32 septets x7 = 224 words = 2.28% of book contents

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198286#Comment_1198286

If my table is correct, then we can conclude that even Josephus' works display the same result of % as Revelation, and thus we should not overstate John's septets.

First, your work is quite impressive. Most people wouldn't think to check other writings.

My comments (FWTW) would be:

- Have you run against the Pseudegrapha (Logos has tagged greek). In theory, you should get a better match for type of writing.

- Don't be offended (not criticizing), but histograms in linguistic analysis are almost always either naive (don't account for surrounding demands), or try to, but become a function of selection of demands (as in my suggestion of matching to Pseudepigrapha, especially Enoch I)

- Pattern-matching and their extension, neural nets, do a better job, since they would be looking at your 'sevens' relative to local demands (subject, point being made, type of writing, and so on).

Just for info, the core of John's Apocalypse (chopping off chap 1-3 and 21-22) closely matches several of the pseudegrapha approx 150 bce, when applying linguistic neural nets.

Morgan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198286#Comment_1198286

If my table is correct, then we can conclude that even Josephus' works display the same result of % as Revelation, and thus we should not overstate John's septets. Yet commentators and our common sense have seen deliberate septets set in John's Revelation, and thus we should not undervalue his labor. Especially some septets are not easily seen, for example, the one with 7 Greek terms of "blessed", and, in my opinion, there is a septet of interludes (which septet also forms a chiasm) in the bulk of the 7 seals-trumpets-bowls.

I think you would also do well to restrict your search of septets to sections within Revelation. A word might be used more than 7 times in the entire book, but finding clusters of seven within a pericope could be significant. A comparison of how many times a word is used seven times in each corpus does not take into account how the words are structured or in relation to each other.

You can limit your concordance results to specific verse ranges within Revelation.

Apologies if you're already doing this, I've only been loosely following this thread.

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198354#Comment_1198354

A word might be used more than 7 times in the entire book

Our search is not more than 7 times, as we have set the Count from 7 to 7, no more, no less.

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198325#Comment_1198325

Pattern-matching and their extension, neural nets, do a better job

Could you teach me how to do this "pattern-matching" and "neural nets". Thanks.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198426#Comment_1198426

Could you teach me how to do this "pattern-matching" and "neural nets". Thanks.

I didn't know how much mathematics you had (you appear well-educated and inquisitive). Both pattern-matching and neurals are pretty complex (considerable background). You might want to google, to see if it's worth it, for you.

Conceptually, for example, a neural learns either an author (eg John), or a type of writing (eg apocalyptic like Ezra4, Baruch2, Enoch, etc) .... the pattern of writing. Then, re-writing the author, to see if a word is expected (local pattern) or unexpected (author selective).

I think Logos itself in its graphic analyses, uses basic pattern analysis.

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198322#Comment_1198322

(A) Total Greek words

(B) Total septets in Greek

(B)/(A) %

Revelation

9833

224

2%

I re-do the table. This time I checked the filter "Bible Text" for (A) and (B), and re-set the decimal place of the percentage, as follows--

	(A) Total Greek words (Bible Text)	(B) Septets in Greek (Bible Text)	(B) / (A) %
Revelation	9680	224	2.3%
Wars 3	14219	196	1.4%
Wars 4	17589	308	1.8%
Wars 6	12426	238	1.9%
Wars 7	12286	105	0.9%

In this re-doing, you can see that Revelation has the highest percentage, not to mention other filters, possibilities, and unsearchable septets. I assume that Josephus did not write with deliberate septets, while John did (at least part of it). Being deliberate, it is not easy to set septets in a book as long as Revelation.

Imagine, you write the same book BY HAND, not by computer, and you set septets here and there in the book, spreading across it. Was John aided by angel(s) in doing that when he was on the island of Patmos?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198436#Comment_1198436

I re-do the table. This time I checked the filter "Bible Text" for (A) and (B)

9833 is correct as NT lemmas are always Greek and will reflect Bible Text in a Greek Bible**!. This is what we want. A translation will not use all Greek words so their count in Bible Text will usually be smaller (9680 in NASB95, 9530 in ESV). The number of septets is not influenced by this.

** 9833 applies to SBLGNT which is the Greek Bible used in NT Reverse Interlinears for bibles like ESV, NASB95. But the count of 9851 in NA28 would be more widely accepted (and 224 is still the count for septets).

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198494#Comment_1198494

9833 is correct as NT lemmas are always Greek and will reflect Bible Text in a Greek Bible**!

Thanks Dave. That is why I need to find out the following--

What is the difference between Greek "surface text" and Greek "content text", Greek "Bible text", "Manuscript Form", and between Heading and Count (some kind people answered before, but I still don't understand)?

I asked these questions in my former post but nobody answered. Could you give me some Logos site with all these definitions so that I would not misunderstand these terms? Thanks again.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198495#Comment_1198495

What is the difference between Greek "surface text" and Greek "content text", Greek "Bible text", "Manuscript Form", and between Heading and Count

In so far as these terms are used in Logos and

When used of a translation like NASB95:

"Surface" is the translated text and any other visible text e.g. headings/pericopes/introduction

it does not include footnotes

"manuscript" (MSS) is the Greek/Hebrew text in the reverse interlinear pane

Concordance uses "Language" to distinguish these

"Bible text" is the translated text

This is usually more verbose than the original language
If you use original language words, Concordance only counts the words that were translated

When used of an original language Greek/Hebrew bible:

"Surface" is the original language text and any other visible text e.g. headings/pericopes/introduction

it does not include footnotes

"manuscript" is the Greek/Hebrew text ("manuscript form" is more descriptive. Also "lemma form").

Concordance will use "Language" for this

"Bible text" is the Greek/Hebrew text

As used in the Concordance tool:

"Heading" denotes an alphabetic sort of the words/lemmas
"Count" denotes a sort by number of words/lemmas

"content text" is defined as The text of the original content of this resource, without headings, translators’ notes, etc. It is the equivalent of "bible text" but applies to resource Types like Ancient Manuscript.

Kee Lau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198580#Comment_1198580

Thanks very much Dave for the explanation.

If I am not mistaken, I would prefer Dr Pickering’s work to NA28. I have the following three books by him. The first one is his argument why he has chosen to do this job. (Unfortunately, Logos has not published any of these books, and so I cannot use Logos 9 to search inside them.)

Pickering, Wilbur. The Identity of the New Testament Text IV . Wilbur N. Pickering, 2014|.

———. The Greek New Testament according to Family 35. Third Edition. Wilbur N. Pickering, 2020|.

———. The Sovereign Creator Has Spoken: Objective Authority for Living—The New Testament with Commentary. Second Edition. Wilbur N. Pickering, 2016|.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198598#Comment_1198598

IIRC this is a majority text author i.e., Byzantine Majority Text (Family 35) New Testament is Wilbur Pickering's text