Search septets in Revelation and Daniel
Comments
-
when you click the Words of Christ box you see that only 3 sets contain 7 words of Christ
Here is my screenshot--All the four have 7 "Words of Christ".
Apologies, I was looking at ESV.
I corrected my original text to read "only 3 of those sets" i.e. 3 of the original sets. Lemma meta was added as the fourth set (it has too many occurrences for the original list).
I must admit to being confused by these "counts" for Words of Christ.
Your problem is that you don't know that "Words of Christ" includes the ACTION of Christ speaking, not necessarily the CONTENT of Christ speaking (what content He speaks). This is the definition of Logos 9 here at this juncture.
I was confused because of the way that the "counts" are applied (e.g. 6 lemmas, of which only 5 are in Bible Text for ESV) - not because of definition.
Concordance "Words of Christ" is a search field that applies to certain bibles ("Red letter" bibles like ESV, NASB95), and its coverage varies because of different opinions about the words that were "spoken". Logos encodes a consistent view of this in a dataset based on a Greek bible (SBLGNT) and applies it via the search term {Speaker <Person Jesus>}, so it only applies to translations with a reverse interlinear (RI) and is not used in Concordance.
Thus, it is somewhat misleading to have Words of Christ at the Lemma level of Concordance when it only applies to the Word level.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Hi Dave, I don't know whether my words posted yesterday were too impolite. English is not my first language. If I was too impolite, I am sorry. By the way, do you have any opinion on what I told you yesterday?
It's ok, Theo. I did have "problems" with other areas of this tool!
I trust that my reply above satisfies your query, although I didn't provide a direct response.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
There is a problem with {Speaker <Person Jesus>} in 3:18 because it will either include the first two occurrences of the lemma (with range Rev 2-4) or the last occurrence (with range Rev 3:18).
Thanks Dave - do you know why this is the case? Is it a bug?
It is a bug as noted in NASB95 and in general coverage without the word term. In ESV, there is no result from Rev 3:18 (or a range of 2 verses either side). The problem extends to SBLGNT.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
If John aims at setting a septet in, say, plural, OK, I need to know that.
In which case, I don't see any way of doing this other than by going through each one as Dave suggested above.
So now, I also need to find out whether or not John did deliberately set those septets.
I have no idea how that could be determined!
0 -
Another way to do this would be to set up a collection of your commentaries on Revelation and Daniel and search for the word septets and see some of the examples they give and then try to reverse engineer it with a concordance search.
0 -
for some reason, the result from 3:9 and the last occurrence from 3:18 is excluded. The same thing is seen if doing a Bible Search - and I admit I don't understand why they don't appear.
There are definitely some bugs related to searching for Jesus as the speaker in Revelation 3-4. I've written up a case to investigate these problems.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
0 -
There are definitely some bugs related to searching for Jesus as the speaker in Revelation 3-4. I've written up a case to investigate these problems.
Thanks Andrew
0 -
Thanks for the kind people's replies.
I compared Revelation with Josephus' Wars, and found out the following, as a table--
(A) Total Greek words
(B) Total septets in Greek
(B)/(A) %
Revelation
9833
224
2%
Wars 3
14219
196
1%
Wars 4
17589
308
2%
Wars 6
12426
238
2%
Wars 7
12286
105
1%
Remember each septet has 7 items, and thus 2% actually occupies 14% (2x7) of the contents of the book, especially the items could be spreading all over and have ramifications all over the book. This, if pre-planned by John, must reveal some special message.
Also remember, there will be more septets if we include different filters and possibilities (such as roots, senses etc.) Besides, there could be septets that cannot be searched by Logos 9, such as the interludes (see below).
My way of getting total Greek words in a book is as the following screenshot (I don't know it is correct or not)--
In the above table, make sure that 20,000 is greater than 17,589, and so you could set to over 20,000.
I have questions--
(1) Is my method of searching total Greek words in a book correct?
(2) What is the difference between Greek "surface text" and Greek "content text", Greek "Bible text", "Manuscript Form", and between Heading and Count (some kind people answered before, but I still don't understand)?
(The above table just took pure "Greek" counts in Wars and pure Lemma without other filters in Revelation. Fortunately I think that there are only minor/no differences, and no affecting the above table.)
||||||
If my table is correct, then we can conclude that even Josephus' works display the same result of % as Revelation, and thus we should not overstate John's septets. Yet commentators and our common sense have seen deliberate septets set in John's Revelation, and thus we should not undervalue his labor. Especially some septets are not easily seen, for example, the one with 7 Greek terms of "blessed", and, in my opinion, there is a septet of interludes (which septet also forms a chiasm) in the bulk of the 7 seals-trumpets-bowls.
0 -
I compared Revelation with Josephus' Wars, and found out the following, as a table--
(A) Total Greek words
(B) Total septets in Greek
(B)/(A) %
Revelation
9833
224
2%
Remember each septet has 7 items, and thus 2% actually occupies 14% (2x7) of the contents of the book,
(A) Total Greek Words is correct
(B) If you read it correctly, there are 32 septets x7 = 224 words = 2.28% of book contents
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
If my table is correct, then we can conclude that even Josephus' works display the same result of % as Revelation, and thus we should not overstate John's septets.
First, your work is quite impressive. Most people wouldn't think to check other writings.
My comments (FWTW) would be:
- Have you run against the Pseudegrapha (Logos has tagged greek). In theory, you should get a better match for type of writing.
- Don't be offended (not criticizing), but histograms in linguistic analysis are almost always either naive (don't account for surrounding demands), or try to, but become a function of selection of demands (as in my suggestion of matching to Pseudepigrapha, especially Enoch I)
- Pattern-matching and their extension, neural nets, do a better job, since they would be looking at your 'sevens' relative to local demands (subject, point being made, type of writing, and so on).
Just for info, the core of John's Apocalypse (chopping off chap 1-3 and 21-22) closely matches several of the pseudegrapha approx 150 bce, when applying linguistic neural nets.
0 -
If my table is correct, then we can conclude that even Josephus' works display the same result of % as Revelation, and thus we should not overstate John's septets. Yet commentators and our common sense have seen deliberate septets set in John's Revelation, and thus we should not undervalue his labor. Especially some septets are not easily seen, for example, the one with 7 Greek terms of "blessed", and, in my opinion, there is a septet of interludes (which septet also forms a chiasm) in the bulk of the 7 seals-trumpets-bowls.
I think you would also do well to restrict your search of septets to sections within Revelation. A word might be used more than 7 times in the entire book, but finding clusters of seven within a pericope could be significant. A comparison of how many times a word is used seven times in each corpus does not take into account how the words are structured or in relation to each other.
You can limit your concordance results to specific verse ranges within Revelation.
Apologies if you're already doing this, I've only been loosely following this thread.
0 -
A word might be used more than 7 times in the entire book
Our search is not more than 7 times, as we have set the Count from 7 to 7, no more, no less.
0 -
Pattern-matching and their extension, neural nets, do a better job
Could you teach me how to do this "pattern-matching" and "neural nets". Thanks.
0 -
Could you teach me how to do this "pattern-matching" and "neural nets". Thanks.
I didn't know how much mathematics you had (you appear well-educated and inquisitive). Both pattern-matching and neurals are pretty complex (considerable background). You might want to google, to see if it's worth it, for you.
Conceptually, for example, a neural learns either an author (eg John), or a type of writing (eg apocalyptic like Ezra4, Baruch2, Enoch, etc) .... the pattern of writing. Then, re-writing the author, to see if a word is expected (local pattern) or unexpected (author selective).
I think Logos itself in its graphic analyses, uses basic pattern analysis.
0 -
(A) Total Greek words
(B) Total septets in Greek
(B)/(A) %
Revelation
9833
224
2%
I re-do the table. This time I checked the filter "Bible Text" for (A) and (B), and re-set the decimal place of the percentage, as follows--
(A) Total Greek words (Bible Text)
(B) Septets in Greek (Bible Text)
(B) / (A) %
Revelation
9680
224
2.3%
Wars 3
14219
196
1.4%
Wars 4
17589
308
1.8%
Wars 6
12426
238
1.9%
Wars 7
12286
105
0.9%
In this re-doing, you can see that Revelation has the highest percentage, not to mention other filters, possibilities, and unsearchable septets. I assume that Josephus did not write with deliberate septets, while John did (at least part of it). Being deliberate, it is not easy to set septets in a book as long as Revelation.
Imagine, you write the same book BY HAND, not by computer, and you set septets here and there in the book, spreading across it. Was John aided by angel(s) in doing that when he was on the island of Patmos?
0 -
I re-do the table. This time I checked the filter "Bible Text" for (A) and (B)
9833 is correct as NT lemmas are always Greek and will reflect Bible Text in a Greek Bible**!. This is what we want. A translation will not use all Greek words so their count in Bible Text will usually be smaller (9680 in NASB95, 9530 in ESV). The number of septets is not influenced by this.
.
** 9833 applies to SBLGNT which is the Greek Bible used in NT Reverse Interlinears for bibles like ESV, NASB95. But the count of 9851 in NA28 would be more widely accepted (and 224 is still the count for septets).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
9833 is correct as NT lemmas are always Greek and will reflect Bible Text in a Greek Bible**!
Thanks Dave. That is why I need to find out the following--
What is the difference between Greek "surface text" and Greek "content text", Greek "Bible text", "Manuscript Form", and between Heading and Count (some kind people answered before, but I still don't understand)?
I asked these questions in my former post but nobody answered. Could you give me some Logos site with all these definitions so that I would not misunderstand these terms? Thanks again.
0 -
What is the difference between Greek "surface text" and Greek "content text", Greek "Bible text", "Manuscript Form", and between Heading and Count
In so far as these terms are used in Logos and
When used of a translation like NASB95:
- "Surface" is the translated text and any other visible text e.g. headings/pericopes/introduction
- it does not include footnotes
- "manuscript" (MSS) is the Greek/Hebrew text in the reverse interlinear pane
- Concordance uses "Language" to distinguish these
- "Bible text" is the translated text
- This is usually more verbose than the original language
- If you use original language words, Concordance only counts the words that were translated
When used of an original language Greek/Hebrew bible:
- "Surface" is the original language text and any other visible text e.g. headings/pericopes/introduction
- it does not include footnotes
- "manuscript" is the Greek/Hebrew text ("manuscript form" is more descriptive. Also "lemma form").
- Concordance will use "Language" for this
- "Bible text" is the Greek/Hebrew text
As used in the Concordance tool:
- "Heading" denotes an alphabetic sort of the words/lemmas
- "Count" denotes a sort by number of words/lemmas
"content text" is defined as The text of the original content of this resource, without headings, translators’ notes, etc. It is the equivalent of "bible text" but applies to resource Types like Ancient Manuscript.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Thanks very much Dave for the explanation.
If I am not mistaken, I would prefer Dr Pickering’s work to NA28. I have the following three books by him. The first one is his argument why he has chosen to do this job. (Unfortunately, Logos has not published any of these books, and so I cannot use Logos 9 to search inside them.)
Pickering, Wilbur. The Identity of the New Testament Text IV . Wilbur N. Pickering, 2014|.
———. The Greek New Testament according to Family 35. Third Edition. Wilbur N. Pickering, 2020|.
———. The Sovereign Creator Has Spoken: Objective Authority for Living—The New Testament with Commentary. Second Edition. Wilbur N. Pickering, 2016|.
0 -
IIRC this is a majority text author i.e., Byzantine Majority Text (Family 35) New Testament is Wilbur Pickering's text
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Pickering‘s version of the Greek New Testament is based on Family 35.
0 -
I would prefer Dr Pickering’s work (...) Unfortunately, Logos has not published any of these books, and so I cannot use Logos 9 to search inside them.
I think this should be "has not yet published" since they are on PrePub: https://www.logos.com/search?filters=author-16649_Author&sortBy=Relevance&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=all
Have joy in the Lord!
0 -
I found out the Logos Prepub of Pickering's Greek NT is still his 2nd edition. Yet he has published his 3rd edition (Kindle version). I think I could add to the wish list about the Prepub of his 3rd edition. Where is the wish list I can add my opinion?
0 -
In so far as these terms are used in Logos and
Great description, Dave. I started writing this up yesterday and then got pulled off on some other things. However, your writeup is much better than mine was, so... [Y]
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
0 -
I started writing this up yesterday and then got pulled off on some other things. However, your writeup is much better than mine was, so...
You're welcome!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Thanks to all.
0 -
I have opened a new post with new thoughts added https://community.logos.com/forums/p/206140/1199858.aspx#1199858 .
0
