How does off-line use interact with on-line use?

I'm wondering what happens in the case below?

1. I'm sitting somewhere without internet and I add a paragraph to a lesson in Sermon Builder on my Windows laptop in the Logos desktop version. I then minimize Logos to the task tray (or maybe I shut Logos down - either way) and then I put my computer to sleep or maybe turn it off, but without ever connecting to the internet.

2. A few hours later, I no longer have my laptop with me, but I think of something important I want to add to that lesson. So I pull out my phone and use the Logos web version to make some quick changes to the same lesson in Sermon Builder. (I don't use my Logos Android app for this since it doesn't yet support making edits in Sermon Builder.) I shut the browser window when I finish, or maybe I forget to shut it, and only minimize it.

3. Eventually, I get home and open my laptop again, this time with internet access. I open the Logos desktop version (or just click to enlarge it, if I hadn't shut out of it completely earlier, and if my computer is still sleeping and not turned off.)

My question is - what syncs and what is lost? If both the changes I made when off-line (on my laptop) and the changes I made when on-line (on my phone) both sync, what if they were contradictory changes?

Thank you so much to anyone who took time to read all that!

I discovered myself in such a situation last week, and I ended up reading a book instead of working in Sermon Builder because I wasn't sure if I would end up losing work.

Thank you to anyone who grasps this and is willing to explain it; I appreciate it.

Maria Brown

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Mike Binks

0 In cloud Sermon

1 On laptop Sermon + Para

2a On phone - Sermon (from Cloud)

2b In cloud and on phone Sermon + quick changes (presumably not quick changes to Para as that won't be there)

3. Laptop syncs Sermon + Para to cloud and (as this is the latest version) deletes quick changes.

But just guessing.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201273#Comment_1201273

That's an excellent question that I've also had. What sync's and what is lost?

Here is what I am trying to figure out:

I do have Logos on old desktop that I will occasionally open up to look up verses, read, etc., but my primary use is on my new laptop that has not been connected to the Internet in almost 6 months. I do 100% of study on my laptop.

I haven't connected Logos to the internet because I don't know what will happen to the information on my laptop. Will I lose my notes, highlights, layouts, reading plans, etc. from my laptop?

I'm going to have to face this question when Logos 10 comes out.

SineNomine

Thank you to anyone who grasps this and is willing to explain it; I appreciate it.

If I understand you correctly, provided that you have your phone and your laptop with you at one time in a place where you have Internet access and you know how to turn Internet use on/off for both devices, you (or anyone else who uses Sermon Builder and otherwise meets the conditions given) should be able to answer your own question within five minutes.

Maria

Okay, so, taking SineNomine's advice, and using Mike Bink's theory to get me started...

I tried several different scenarios (connect to internet before opening Logos vs. after opening Logos, shutting the browser vs. leaving it open, closing out of Logos vs. simply minimizing to task tray). What I made sure to do consistently, though, was to manually sync before and after each step.

What I found was this: It seems to be very difficult to lose work. I expected to lose whatever quick changes I made on my phone when I re-connected my laptop to the internet as a final step. But, those quick changes always showed up. It seems that every change I made, from any source, got shoe-horned in on that final sync.

So, ultimately, I had to "clean up" a bit - as I had several different working versions stuck together, so to speak. But I didn't lose anything.

Warning: Please don't trust my testing here enough to risk losing actual work. This is still totally just a theory!

Thank you Mike and SineNomine!

Maria

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201333#Comment_1201333

Update - What I wrote above seems to be true when I add paragraphs or delete and rewrite sentences.

But, for some reason, when I add words to the middle of a sentence (without deleting any of the original words), those new words sometimes get lost. I wasn't able to determine a pattern as to when a given word gets left out of the final sync.

In one test, a word I added while on my phone, while my desktop was offline, wasn't there after the final sync, but a different word added via my off-line laptop was there. In another test, a word I added via my off-line laptop wasn't there after the final sync, but a different word added via my phone was there.

Meanwhile, the exact same tests (I think, but I realize there may be variables I haven't taken into account) conducted with new paragraphs (instead of words added in the middle of a sentence) resulted in every paragraph being saved regardless of how or when it was entered.

It seems like I'll be safe if I add paragraphs, but maybe I should steer clear of editing what is written already.

Any insights? Any variables I am overlooking?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201342#Comment_1201342

In one test, a word I added while on my phone, while my desktop was offline, wasn't there after the final sync, but a different word added via my off-line laptop was there.

If laptop was the last device changed that is to be expected, irrespective of being online or offline. Sync only looks at the time of the change.

In another test, a word I added via my off-line laptop wasn't there after the final sync, but a different word added via my phone was there.

So your phone was the last device changed!? The phone change would appear on the laptop when it went online.

Meanwhile, the exact same tests (I think, but I realize there may be variables I haven't taken into account) conducted with new paragraphs (instead of words added in the middle of a sentence) resulted in every paragraph being saved regardless of how or when it was entered.

First ensure that all devices are showing the same data, whether offline or online. Then repeat those tests noting the time you made the change and exactly what was changed (don't rely on memory). Then manually construct the paragraph/sentence as it should be after the latest changes are applied (they could come from both/all devices). Wait a few minutes after allowing all devices to sync and check that they all show the data that you constructed.

Also note:

when you exit Logos and don't let sync complete, it will complete when you re-login.
But if you first logon to a session on a different device and make changes to the same document (for example) and allow that to fully sync, you may lose the data that did not sync because it is older than the data that did sync.
So make sure that Logos completes its sync when exiting/closing and making changes on another device.

Maria

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201430#Comment_1201430

Thank you very much Dave!!

I've tried it again, following your suggestions. No data was lost when I added paragraphs. (Now I'll go try making a change in the middle of a sentence, then I'll post again.)

Here's a screenshot of the final result. It showed up out-of-order, but all there:

Maria

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201430#Comment_1201430

Here's what happened when I edited in the middle of a sentence. The third phrase added, on my phone, was lost. (When I made that change, as expected, the second phrase was not showing on my phone.)

Maria

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201430#Comment_1201430

So, if I'm following correctly, the sentence test did what was expected: Logos synced to the most recent change. (The most recent change included the original sentence, the 2nd phrase, and the 4th phrase - because they were all on my laptop during that final sync.) The 3rd phrase was lost because it was an older change.

But the paragraph test confuses me: Nothing is lost. It seems the 3rd paragraph ought to be lost, because it isn't a part of the text during the final sync. I'm going to repeat the paragraph test...

Maria

Most recent test, same results:

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201448#Comment_1201448

It showed up out-of-order, but all there:

Nothing is lost. It seems the 3rd paragraph ought to be lost, because it isn't a part of the text during the final sync.

That is what I would expect as the phone's 3rd paragraph sync'd before the laptop's second and fourth paragraphs. No paragraphs were altered, so nothing should be lost.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201460#Comment_1201460

So, if I'm following correctly, the sentence test did what was expected: Logos synced to the most recent change. (The most recent change included the original sentence, the 2nd phrase, and the 4th phrase - because they were all on my laptop during that final sync.) The 3rd phrase was lost because it was an older change.

I can't comment because you did not document the 3rd phrase.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201463#Comment_1201463

Most recent test, same results:

As expected!!

Offline means nothing will sync until you go back online else you would see the second paragraph on your phone.

Maria

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201649#Comment_1201649

I am missing something, conceptually, in my understanding of sync!

Here's how I'm picturing it:

The cloud version is all that matters in the end.

During the test, after I type paragraph 3, the version on my phone immediately syncs to the cloud. -- So, at that point, the cloud version (as expected) has only paragraphs 1 & 3.

Then, after I type paragraph 4 on my laptop, my laptop (as expected) shows only paragraphs 1 & 2 & 4. It's still not online.

Then I turn on my laptop wifi. My laptop version (paragraphs 1 & 2 & 4) should replace the older version (from my phone, paragraphs 1 & 3).

Paragraph 3 should disappear.

But it doesn't.

Where is my logic going wrong?

Maria

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201649#Comment_1201649

I am missing something, conceptually, in my understanding of sync!

Here's how I'm picturing it:

The cloud version is all that matters in the end.

During the test, after I type paragraph 3, the version on my phone immediately syncs to the cloud. -- So, at that point, the cloud version (as expected) has only paragraphs 1 & 3.

Then, after I type paragraph 4 on my laptop, my laptop (as expected) shows only paragraphs 1 & 2 & 4. It's still not online.

Then I turn on my laptop wifi. My laptop version (paragraphs 1 & 2 & 4) should replace the older version (from my phone, paragraphs 1 & 3).

Paragraph 3 should disappear.

But it doesn't.

Where is my logic going wrong?

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201680#Comment_1201680

Where is my logic going wrong?

My guess is that there's a basic deletion-avoidance mechanism built into the Sync function. Sync recognizes that there are multiple sources for changes made from a single base document. A new paragraph is recognized as added material. Since the laptop version's changes do not include deleting that new material, it sticks around. Sync 'knows' that the laptop hasn't 'seen' that added paragraph because it 'knows' both the local edit histories and the sync history.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201687#Comment_1201687

Where is my logic going wrong?

Sync recognizes that there are multiple sources for changes made from a single base document. A new paragraph is recognized as added material. Since the laptop version's changes do not include deleting that new material, it sticks around.

That's a good summation. And if you delete material, sync'd or not, it will be deleted.

Maria

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201281#Comment_1201281

That's an excellent question that I've also had. What sync's and what is lost?

Here is what I am trying to figure out:

I do have Logos on old desktop that I will occasionally open up to look up verses, read, etc., but my primary use is on my new laptop that has not been connected to the Internet in almost 6 months. I do 100% of study on my laptop.

I haven't connected Logos to the internet because I don't know what will happen to the information on my laptop. Will I lose my notes, highlights, layouts, reading plans, etc. from my laptop?

I'm going to have to face this question when Logos 10 comes out.

Hi Ronald!

I wish I could help, but I don't trust my understanding enough to advise you. Maybe somebody else will chime in who has a better grasp of your situation. (My guess is that you have nothing to worry about - that you won't lose anything. But, you need to speak to someone who's 100% sure before you take action! Maybe call the help center and ask?)

Maria [:)]

Maria

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201687#Comment_1201687

Where is my logic going wrong?

My guess is that there's a basic deletion-avoidance mechanism built into the Sync function. Sync recognizes that there are multiple sources for changes made from a single base document. A new paragraph is recognized as added material. Since the laptop version's changes do not include deleting that new material, it sticks around. Sync 'knows' that the laptop hasn't 'seen' that added paragraph because it 'knows' both the local edit histories and the sync history.

This makes so much sense...especially the idea of a "basic deletion-avoidance mechanism." (Btw, that is a great phrase! It made me smile.) Sync recognizes a new paragraph as added material, and protects it, but doesn't give the same status to a phrase added in the middle of a sentence, and so doesn't protect it in the same way.

This would explain why the 3rd paragraph in the "paragraph test" gets saved, but the 3rd phrase in the "sentence test" gets lost. In the "sentence test," Sync decides I'm editing the sentence, not merely inserting more information.

I wonder if someone from Faithlife could chime in and verify that this is, in fact, how it works? I want to call customer support and ask, but I can't think of a way to explain my question simply and succinctly over the phone!

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201870#Comment_1201870

This would explain why the 3rd paragraph in the "paragraph test" gets saved, but the 3rd phrase in the "sentence test" gets lost. In the "sentence test," Sync decides I'm editing the sentence, not merely inserting more information.

Start by posting and describing all the stages of editing the "sentence test" so we see the 3rd phrase. You can't to explain something like this over the phone! Faithlife may join in here.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201281#Comment_1201281

I do have Logos on old desktop that I will occasionally open up to look up verses, read, etc., but my primary use is on my new laptop that has not been connected to the Internet in almost 6 months. I do 100% of study on my laptop.

I haven't connected Logos to the internet because I don't know what will happen to the information on my laptop. Will I lose my notes, highlights, layouts, reading plans, etc. from my laptop?

Even if the old desktop is connected to the internet it will not have access to the serious work done on your laptop. The main overlap would be with layouts, so the last thing to do is update your study layouts on the laptop and then connect it to the internet. You will not lose the work you have done on the laptop.

Maria

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201900#Comment_1201900

Start by posting and describing all the stages of editing the "sentence test" so we see the 3rd phrase. You can't to explain something like this over the phone! Faithlife may join in here.

Thank you, Dave, for helping with this! I decided to take a screenshot of my phone and email it to myself to document the 3rd phrase that always gets deleted. Here's what my phone looked like. At this point, I had already added the 2nd and 4th phrase on my laptop, but my laptop was still offline. Everything looked as expected.

Immediately after I took this phone screenshot, I went and turned on my laptop's wife, and waited for things to sync. The final screenshot of my laptop below is what happened after everything synced.

I also verified that my phone, using Logos web, after the final sync, does match exactly what my laptop shows...no 3rd phrase. It matches exactly what shows on my laptop here.

So, if a full paragraph is added, it gets saved. But, if a phrase is inserted in a sentence, it gets lost. (Although there could be other variables in play here that I'm not aware of.)

Thank you for any thoughts you have, Dave!

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1201911#Comment_1201911

So, if a full paragraph is added, it gets saved. But, if a phrase is inserted in a sentence, it gets lost. (Although there could be other variables in play here that I'm not aware of.)

I tried a similar experiment in the Notes portion of a Clipping and lost all the offline updates i.e. it retained the online updates from two devices. The main difference is that

my first text was two complete (period terminated) sentences.
the changes were complete sentences inserted between the first two above.

Lesson: If working a document between two devices ensure that sync is complete on both before making changes!

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1202008#Comment_1202008

I tried a similar experiment in the Notes portion of a Clipping and lost all the offline updates i

I spoke too soon, because I found a duplicate clipping with the "missing" offline updates neatly inserted between the original online sentences!

The Lesson remains however.

Maria

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1202084#Comment_1202084

Now that is awesome!

And it lends credence to SinNomine's theory of a basic deletion-avoidance mechanism that operates to save anything it recognizes as added material.

It's been encouraging to realize how little information has actually been lost in these experiments.

It still feels risky to mix up online work and offline work, but I think I have a better understanding of what will happen if I do.

When I need to mix offline and online work in the future, I'll stick to creating whole new paragraphs, and stay away from editing original paragraphs. (Although it does look like I might be safe if I'm creating complete, period terminated sentences instead of adding phrases. But, I'll play safe, and stick to completely new paragraphs!)

David Betts

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1202101#Comment_1202101

Over the years I've 'lost' some important notes / lessons, some of which could never be reconstructed. I would like to offer a different perspective. If something is truly important, don't rely on something outside - keep it on one device, and when going mobile, take a copy with you. If necessary DATE each version, for example as: 20220409.0800.7.U [2022=Y;04=M;09=Date;0800=tiime of day;7=day of week; U=USA location. OR specify location as C=City etc.Then the Name of lesson. This puts lessons in date order if desired; you may want a different method. This makes every date/time the same length and order.

Example:

20220202.2020.3.L Exploring The Whole Counsel of Yah [if your OS allows spaces in titles.

20220409.0830.7.S Exploring The Whole Counsel of Yah

Experiment with your own 'code' if desired. you may need to 1) learn 24 hour clock 2) learn days of week as numbers 3) keep track of location code. I once had S for spokane, but then had to use s for 'street name.' This may be more effort than you wish, or all this not important for you. YMMV.

If this is too much work, consider how much coding is needed for various changes we desire for Logos to make for us. Bottom line, if syncing caused problems, DIY may be one solution.

My 2 Shekels .. Shalom !

Maria

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1202655#Comment_1202655

Thank you, David!

This is logical, solid advice.

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