Study outside your idealogy?
A question.....
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
Thanks for answering.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
Comments
-
Yes, I do. If I only bought books and materials from a Wesleyan-Holiness perspective in Logos, my library would be very small.
My studying outside your own denomination you learn that you do not have a corner on the truth and its helps you to see ones own blind spots.
Thanks for asking this question.
0 -
xnman said:
A question.....
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
Thanks for answering.
Yes. By far the majority of my studies are outside of my denomination. I don’t always agree with everyone that I read but I always learn something and it pays to challenge my thinking. Sometimes I have a misunderstanding about another denomination and this corrects that. Sometimes I discover real treasures in my library that would be overlooked if I stayed within my denomination. My favourite commentary on Psalms is written from a Lutheran background but I am not Lutheran. There are good perspectives from various denominations and my goal in my study is to harvest the best as much as I can.
0 -
xnman said:
A question.....
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
Thanks for answering.
I wonder how North American the question is? Maybe you're not from there.
In the UK I don't personally feel denominationalism is very strong. I would generally buy books from the Protestant camp, but I pay no attention to the authors' denominations. Equally, I wouldn't worry about the denomination of the church I attend. I would be more interested in worshipping locally, as long as the church was "evangelical" - at least in the sense we use that word in the UK.
0 -
xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
Of course -- how else can you know if you are correct? To stay within a single ideology in politics is called brainwashing. I think the same applies to religion (or any other discipline).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Paul Caneparo said:
I wonder how North American the question is? Maybe you're not from there.
In the UK I don't personally feel denominationalism is very strong.
Not North American so much as a particular subset of North American . . .
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
Not really. Just being 'honest'. I think it's like a trail up a mountain. We part ways near the parking lot. Sure, their trail(s) might be interesting. Well thought out. Convincing too. Uplifting. But it's not where I'm intending to go. I could go there; not a problem. But I didn't arrive to hike those trails.
To illustrate, I've spent much time at the St George Utah Mormon bookstore. And built a Shinto shrine, with a nice bell. And sat at peace outside the Catholic Church serving the native Americans to our south, as smoke curled up from campfires. And posed the query, how do you build the slightly narrowing walls in 16th century churches; what's the trick. The 'studying' isn't 'ideology', rather the experiencing.
0 -
I rarely know the denominational background of the authors of the commentaries and books I read.[:D]
Even if you read all the works of all the denominations was smart enough to identify exactly the truths from all denominations, and put a non-denominational truth package together, you would still not have 100% of all the truths (because that would rivals' God's knowledge, and humanity as a whole will never ever achieve God's knowledge). So you might as well read across a wide spectrum and ask for God's wisdom to discern truths as you read.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
0 -
xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
Not enough resources in Logos from my 'denomination or ideology' to fill a library.
And if I only study what I already know how will I know that what I believe is correct?
0 -
xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
Absolutely. Besides, I've been part of so many denominations myself -- baptized Episcopal, went to Quaker Meeting (basically just childcare) as a young child, grew up Congregational, Presbyterian as a young adult, attended a "non-denominational" Bible study, went to a transdenominational seminary, member of a Mennonite church now -- that it would be silly to only study stuff within my own (current) denomination.
It's not that I've been moving around from denomination to denomination trying to find the one "right" one and stick with only that. But different life circumstances have made me realize that there is no one "right" denomination. There are so many benefits from learning different theologies, being exposed to different approaches, emphases, worship styles, authors, etc.
I am fortunate that for the past few decades I've been in theological circles that are open to and encourage people to explore writings from others all across the theological spectrum, rather than being afraid of it and teaching us to be wary (like my mother and my childhood church did). I read Catholic, Orthodox, and Jewish writings. I've even dipped a bit into writings from Sikh, Muslim, and Buddhist perspectives, or from "spiritual but not religious" people who borrow from other traditions.
The only denomination or ideology that I wouldn't care to read from would be any that teaches that it's the only true one and everyone else is 100% wrong.
0 -
We all do 👍😁👌 Read Christian Courier or Apologetics Press Articles and look at the footnotes. The sources cited are from authors from various denominations and academic fields.
DAL
0 -
xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
Definately. How else do I grow beyond what I currently understand? Assuming that I (and my mob) already have the truth sorted and everyone else is wrong would be ignorant pride on my part, and underestimating God on his.
0 -
Rosie Perera said:xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
But different life circumstances have made me realize that there is no one "right" denomination. ...
... The only denomination or ideology that I wouldn't care to read from would be any that teaches that it's the only true one and everyone else is 100% wrong.
Rosie said it better than I ever could.
0 -
xnman said:
A question.....
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
Thanks for answering.
I did a check in Passage Guide and the majority of Commentaries are outside my denomination (for Gen-Rev). But there are denominational Base Packages I won't select.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Absolutely, and always have.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
0 -
Absolutely!
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
0 -
xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
I'm curious what your answer to your own question is, and would you care to elaborate on why, and what you expected might be the percentage of "Yes" answers vs. "No" among Logos users?
0 -
Rosie Perera said:xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
I'm curious what your answer to your own question is, and would you care to elaborate on why, and what you expected might be the percentage of "Yes" answers vs. "No" among Logos users?
I’d love to see what his answer is 👌
0 -
I certainly do - probably because I can't help myself. [;)] Of course, this doesn't mean I would treat all material equally, with the same regard or having the same authority. For certain beliefs out there I'll just do some window shopping as I enjoy knowing why others believe what they do. Similarly, I'll read Bible versions promoted by some groups to see how they use (or misuse) Scripture and dip into their doctrines and writers to see their reasoning even if I manifestly disagree with them. Yet in the end much study makes jack a dull boy - so its then time for me to sharpen my chain saw, cut wood and feed the pigeons. Keep well Paul
0 -
Dave Hooton said:
I did a check in Passage Guide and the majority of Commentaries are outside my denomination (for Gen-Rev). But there are denominational Base Packages I won't select.
I own at least one denominational base package for each denomination that is offered. I almost did not purchase an SDA legacy library because I thought I did not want a long list of pamphlets clogging up my library. I have found that long list of pamphlets more interesting and better tagged than I had ever expected and appreciate them coming up in my searches. I now seek out diversity instead of trying to shelter myself from it.
I overspend in Logos yet still cannot purchase a fraction of all that is offered. I tend to stock up on some denominational packages more than others, but at times, a set that I want most will be offered in a base package that I otherwise would have overlooked. Then I poke around in the package and find more things that I never would have thought to look for, but want as much as I want the set that drew me to it.
0 -
This article about William Barclay shows how valuable it is to learn from others, even if we don’t agree with everything they say: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/681-the-enigmatic-william-barclay
DAL
Ps. Written by the late Wayne Jackson (a member of the church of Christ).
0 -
Newlyweds soon discover differences in their ideology, but hopefully study to stay friends.
Similarly, I have seldom studied a book in which I couldn't ferret out some ideological difference, yet I found enough value to stick with the book and call it a friend.So, yes. As a result, I read almost entirely outside my perfect ideology. My ideology is constantly maturing because friends with fresh ideas do that to you.
Best of all, I love the diversity God created in all people (all of whom are imperfect) and cherish the gift of being able to study from their point of view. In so doing, I have come to see and understand, and love so much more about God.
0 -
DAL said:
This article about William Barclay shows how valuable it is to learn from others, even if we don’t agree with everything they say: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/681-the-enigmatic-william-barclay
DAL
Ps. Written by the late Wayne Jackson (a member of the church of Christ).
Thank you for that!
0 -
Kathleen Marie said:DAL said:
This article about William Barclay shows how valuable it is to learn from others, even if we don’t agree with everything they say: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/681-the-enigmatic-william-barclay
DAL
Ps. Written by the late Wayne Jackson (a member of the church of Christ).
Thank you for that!
You are welcome! Here’s another one on Adam Clarke and Albert Barnes: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/495-adam-clarke-albert-barnes-scholars-from-the-past
DAL
0 -
I absolutely do. How I approach books also depends on the type of work it is. So, for example:
- Technical works, like lexicons and grammars - as long as they're competently done, the background of the author doesn't matter
- Historical works - the background of the author is generally not very important, though at times it can be important to understand the interpretive framework the writer uses.
- Exegetical works - competence and faithfulness to the text are more important than denominational background. You may find that the exegesis for texts that touch on distinctive denominational doctrines are affected by the author's background, so it can be helpful to know.
- Theological works - I find that understanding the author's denominational background becomes more important here. It's important to note, however, that there's a great deal of doctrine that's common across all of the major branches of Christianity. Also, as several folks have pointed out - "my folks," whoever they might be, could be wrong about things we believe. So it's helpful to be exposed to a variety of viewpoints.
- Confessional documents - given that these are often used to delineate what's unique about a denomination, I generally only use them to studying particular beliefs of specific groups.
Bottom line, if I'm looking for help parsing a Hebrew verb, I don't care who wrote the book. If I'm reading a confessional document, I do.
0 -
DAL said:Rosie Perera said:xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
I'm curious what your answer to your own question is, and would you care to elaborate on why, and what you expected might be the percentage of "Yes" answers vs. "No" among Logos users?
I’d love to see what his answer is 👌
I guess we have to wait… 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗
0 -
EastTN said:
Confessional documents - given that these are often used to delineate what's unique about a denomination, I generally only use them to studying particular beliefs of specific groups.
I have found position papers from various denominations to be well thought out and well documented -- much better than lay popular books in dealing with contemporary issues. A Lutheran statement on same-sex relationships from the 1980's is still my go-to on the top and a Catholic statement on just war from the same period. Whether or not I agree with their conclusion, the material offered is excellent fodder for thought.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
MJ. Smith said:EastTN said:
Confessional documents - given that these are often used to delineate what's unique about a denomination, I generally only use them to studying particular beliefs of specific groups.
I have found position papers from various denominations to be well thought out and well documented -- much better than lay popular books in dealing with contemporary issues. A Lutheran statement on same-sex relationships from the 1980's is still my go-to on the top and a Catholic statement on just war from the same period. Whether or not I agree with their conclusion, the material offered is excellent fodder for thought.
I didn't intend to categorically state that every document created by a denominational body is of no value to outsiders. I'd agree that a well thought-out position paper can be very useful. My point was just that the nature of a specific book or document affects the extent to which it's going to be of interest to someone from outside the particular communion. To the extent that a document provides an even-handed review of the relevant issues, I find it much more helpful than one that focuses on stating the official position of the denominational entity. Of course, that's just me - your mileage may vary;
0 -
EastTN said:
My point was just that the nature of a specific book or document affects the extent to which it's going to be of interest to someone from outside the particular communion.
I agree with your post with one minor exception - I tend to separate out the position papers on social issues from the doctrinal papers and wanted to share that distinction as part of an ongoing effort to get more church documents into Logos. -- Anglican Lambeth papers would be a great start.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
DAL said:
You are welcome! Here’s another one on Adam Clarke and Albert Barnes: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/495-adam-clarke-albert-barnes-scholars-from-the-past
Thanks! I find it interesting what is considered "bizarre" today was sometimes thought to be scholarly in the past. Sometimes when a theologian is being blasted for writing something, a little research shows that s/he was not the only one that had adopted that belief.
I wonder what things being taught in seminaries today and by well respected teachers will be labeled as "bizarre" in the years to come. And who will be singled out as the one that believed that idea.
Ebooks are great, but with the much smaller hardcopy libraries, and the constant updates, it will be so much harder to track down what was a common belief for a time.
0 -
Rosie Perera said:
I'm curious what your answer to your own question is, and would you care to elaborate on why, and what you expected might be the percentage of "Yes" answers vs. "No" among Logos users?
My answer is simple.... Absolutely! I read and have read from just about any works that is considered to be "religious" in nature. I try to read with an open mind, considering that I may learn from the reading. But... and I am thinking we all have a "but" in there.... I am in search of religious truth... which I think differs from "society religious truth" in that the religious truth I am seeking must be in agreement with the Bible...
The reason for my question on his thread.... was to find others views on the matter, and I thank each of you for answering.
Edit: Didn't mean to offend anyone by not answering promptly.... just that of late I am torn in different directions because of too many projects and such.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
0 -
MJ. Smith said:EastTN said:
My point was just that the nature of a specific book or document affects the extent to which it's going to be of interest to someone from outside the particular communion.
I agree with your post with one minor exception - I tend to separate out the position papers on social issues from the doctrinal papers and wanted to share that distinction as part of an ongoing effort to get more church documents into Logos. -- Anglican Lambeth papers would be a great start.
I can see that. I certainly don't want to discourage FaithLife from adding more church documents to the Logos ecosystem.
0 -
xnman said:Rosie Perera said:
I'm curious what your answer to your own question is, and would you care to elaborate on why, and what you expected might be the percentage of "Yes" answers vs. "No" among Logos users?
My answer is simple.... Absolutely! I read and have read from just about any works that is considered to be "religious" in nature. I try to read with an open mind, considering that I may learn from the reading. But... and I am thinking we all have a "but" in there.... I am in search of religious truth... which I think differs from "society religious truth" in that the religious truth I am seeking must be in agreement with the Bible...
The reason for my question on his thread.... was to find others views on the matter, and I thank each of you for answering.
Edit: Didn't mean to offend anyone by not answering promptly.... just that of late I am torn in different directions because of too many projects and such.
That’s a good change. We need to learn from God’s Word, but we can also learn from what men have written on various Bible doctrines.
DAL
0 -
DAL said:
That’s a good change. We need to learn from God’s Word, but we can also learn from what men have written on various Bible doctrines.
Not arguing one way or the other, but I don't remember Paul recommending the false teachers. On the other hand, Jesus did recommend the Pharisees. So, I guess it's a tossup.
0 -
xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
Yes. Many years ago—as I began my theological education—someone remarked, "Gaining theological knowledge is like eating fish; you eat the meat and throw the bones away." Of course, if the fish is a mud carp, you give up on finding anything worth eating. I do have a few of those resources in my library. Sometimes, they are useful for bad examples [:P]. You can find useful insight in most resources, regardless of theological perspective. You just have to learn discernment.
0 -
Being a real follower of Messiah means the truth is that we follow Him outside the camp. Ecclesial training wheels eventually come off.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
0 -
xnman said:
I am in search of religious truth... which I think differs from "society religious truth" in that the religious truth I am seeking must be in agreement with the Bible...
Everybody believes that their beliefs are grounded in the Bible. What a wide chasm exists between Catholics and Protestants. My point is that we all have wrong beliefs despite seeking truths grounded in the Bible.
When I see someone in my men's group espouse, what I think is, a wrong belief, I try to put a verse in front of them. I then ask them how their belief could be consistent with the verse I show them. They'll acknowledge that there can be no contradictions in the Bible, but the typical reaction is that we have to hold these seemingly contradictory beliefs in tension or some sort of fluffy language like that.
So I'm coming around to taking a different tack. I am going to ask people, "how is this belief consistent with the character/attribute of God?" Bible verses can be interpreted differently, but there is virtually no ambiguity when it comes to God's character. We know He is wise, He is good, He is just etc., and all of us can agree on these common set of beliefs on the attributes of God, on which other beliefs can be built.
Not to hijack this post, but is there a resource which says, "let's resolve difficult verses/concepts/beliefs using the character/attribute of God"?
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
0 -
1Cor10:31 said:
What a wide chasm exists between Catholics and Protestants.
Actually, its a very narrow crack between High Anglicans and High Lutherans ... it is a chasm only between particular flavors on Protestants.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
DMB said:
I don't remember Paul recommending the false teachers.
But Paul did quote pagan philosophers and poets (Epimenides, Aratus, and Menander) in Acts 17:28, 1 Cor. 15:33, and Titus 1:12. That's not necessarily "recommending" them, but it is kind of an endorsement in a way. He doesn't necessarily support the full works that those lines were from, but the words he quotes, he finds useful in making his case.
0 -
Rosie Perera said:
But Paul did quote pagan philosophers and poets (Epimenides, Aratus, and Menander) in Acts 17:28, 1 Cor. 15:33, and Titus 1:12. That's not necessarily "recommending" them, but it is kind of an endorsement in a way. He doesn't necessarily support the full works that those lines were from, but the words he quotes, he finds useful in making his case.
True. And Clement seemed to endorce resurrecting thunderbirds to support Jesus. I don't think Paul would try that.
0 -
I find that there is often a lot of great stuff by authors not of my exact theological bent. I don't like to use the term denomination because some denominations are very broad and don't really define a perspective. I am a dispensational moderate Calvinist in my views. Dallas Theological Seminary would be a place that would agree with me more than not. I am a member of an SBC church and I know the SBC does not uniformly agree with my views. My local church does.
I hate to think I could get nothing from great theologians like D.A. Carson just between we disagree on some parts of it. I don't fear other opinions and I often like to read other views. It either changes my view or strengthens the one I hold. There is probably some denominations I would tend to read less often. I'm definitely evangelical and I believe in inerrancy so I mostly want to read those people because exegeting the bible is why I'm reading. That doesn't mean I never read other views beyond that scope but less often.
Most of the top tier commentaries really take the approach - we will give you all you need to know to make your own theological decision. They will explain the Greek, give the historical context, the literary context, etc... They may give their opinion but they win awards for the first part. Now there is nothing wrong with a good devotional commentary focused on your theology. The BE series by Weirsbe or the John Phillips series are both great for me in that regard. I though tend to go back t the NICNT/OT, BECNT, NIGTC, when I am digging deep.0 -
Welcome to the forums.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
I am Catholic, and I study lots of non-Catholic 'material' in theology and related disciplines.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
0 -
xnman said:
Do you study material outside your denomination or ideology?
My ordination is with the Evangelical Free Church of America. Our approach is that our movement is a large Tent (range of our Fellowship) supported by 10 poles and a stated value of the significance of silence (there are some ideas that we intentionally remain silent since we understand there is genuine disagreement within the Body of Christ). This approach requires that I study within and without our tradition in order to do theological triage and to be convinced in my own mind (Rom 14:5). As our movement has practiced this triage, we have officially revised (2019) our statement to be broader regarding Premillennialism. One can embrace Premillennialism (as I do) under this statement, but is not required to hold to this eschatological scheme to be under our large Tent.
I truly appreciate the works of Roger Olson who attempts to identify which issues historically have been deemed within orthodoxy, beyond orthodoxy, or debated within orthodoxy.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
0 -
I look to works outside of my tradition to accurately learn what they believe and why when there is a difference from my own. I’ve long been frustrated with people misrepresenting my beliefs based on what they’ve been told. So, under the Golden Rule, I see it as an obligation to not simply rely on what others tell me.
Yes, I’ll make mistakes at times… that’s a disadvantage of looking in from outside. But I try to avoid them as much as I can.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0
