SEARCH (again,) why is it so difficult ...
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I also found that FL Assistant doesn't do very well with "Where is..." I asked it "Where is Tel Dan?" and it brought up the Factbook entry for the book of Daniel. I tried putting "Tel Dan" into quotation marks and same thing. It did better with "Where is Jerusalem?" (Factbook entry for Jerusalem) But if I want to know where Jerusalem is, not merely what it is, I would expect a map to be opened up to Jerusalem.
There's definitely room for improvement, even without becoming a full-blown fount of all knowledge like Google.
Faithlife acknowledges that Faithlife Assistance is basically a prototype. They ran a survey on the use of and desire for improvement in the tool earlier in the year - I suspect that the primary response was what's that feature?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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But it seems more complex questions ("When was Paul in Corinth?" or "Paul at Corinth" or "Paul in Athens") confuses it.
You are right that these are more complex questions. And in cases like these, it is important to understand the different tools Logos makes available - that might be more appropriate than trying to do something in a Search panel. In this case I would like at the Biblical Event Navigator Tool and search for references to Corinth
or - another way to access this information - is by entering Corinth in the Factbook search box and choosing one of the events listed:
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Faithlife acknowledges that Faithlife Assistance is basically a prototype. They ran a survey on the use of and desire for improvement in the tool earlier in the year - I suspect that the primary response was what's that feature?
Yes, this is also my response. So far, whenever I used Faithlife Assistant, I get the following answer: I didn’t understand that. Would you like to search for .....
I don't need more tools / guides /utilities ... to essentially do the same thing that other tools / guides / ... already do in Logos. This only adds to the confusion. The already existing tools need to be improved.
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I didn’t understand that. Would you like to search for .....
That is because it is a prototype with limited capabilities - what it does recognize is documented in the wiki. Just like Alexa or Siri you must learn its capabilities.
I don't need more tools / guides /utilities ... to essentially do the same thing that other tools / guides / ... already do in Logos.
But other people may ... none of the current tools, with the exception of Faithlife Assistant, is designed to handle speech-style requests for specific facts. I may be wrong but as I see current trends, since the Faithlife Assistant works on speech as well as manual input, I expect the mobile app users to give it the demand that turns it into a full function.
The already existing tools need to be improved
There are many tools that need to be improved but concrete suggestions are the way to make that happen. For me, the tool I would use significantly more if it were improved in the Concordance function which needs to deal with n-grams -- obviously not the majority opinion but it is representative of the problems Logos/Verbum faces as they allocate their resources. But there are still several functions that are not covered at all.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Google can handle that one:
Exactly my point, Rosie, as well as the views expressed by xnman and several others on these recent threads on Search.
We're not specifically looking for another tool, or some layout to link up existing tools, or beefing up the voice tool (FL Assistant). What I'm asking for, for the sake of current users and future prospective sales, is a Logos Search as close to Google's as possible:
When I think of something to search, I type a query into the search box (the GO box), and Logos returns either: (a) a list of possible results, with the most likely "answer" displayed up top directly, just like the Google search results page; OR (b) if Logos is very certain it understands my query and knows the exact answer, it may, instead of displaying a results list, directly open a page from Factbook or Event Navigator or Bible Search or Bible Browser or Topic Guide or Atlas or Concordance or whatever existing tool out of the myriad of tools available.
The above use case is my description of the "ideal" or "dream" Logos Search, in my opinion. Knowing that FL is not Alphabet, I know we won't get to this point fast, or possibly ever. But as close to the above described "intuitiveness" and "usability" FL can get, I'd be very happy and cheering the team on.
Please reimagine Search.
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You are right that these are more complex questions. And in cases like these, it is important to understand the different tools Logos makes available - that might be more appropriate than trying to do something in a Search panel. In this case I would like at the Biblical Event Navigator Tool and search for references to Corinth
I appreciate all the suggestions about using all the different functions to try to find stuff hidden in my Logos Bible program...
(shifts head back and forth to pop muscles in neck.. takes a deep breath... then counts to 10...) [8-|]
But folks... I don't want to have to take a course for all the many functions of Logos just to find out what function to use ...every time I want to find something. All you are doing by suggesting all these different functions is really showing how inept Search and Factbook really are. Think about it. Search didn't work... so Logos started building all the guides and then if someone like me complains about Search... then I'm told I should have used such and such guide.. At best that is a work-around to NOT have to fix Search!
And I don't want to have to train myself in all the hieroglyphics to use search. I'm a minister... schooled in Bible...and I just want to study my Bible and be able to use Search and Factbook to ASSIST me with that! I'm tired of my Bible program diverting my time to study to have to learn Search every time I go to use it. My time means something to me....
The biggest problem I am finding now.. in Logos...IS THE SEARCH AND FACTBOOK FUNCTIONS don't work! They change my focus from studying my Bible to studying Search or Factbook or whatever to find out how to use them... Why does anyone want to accept a Bible program that we pay very good money for...that demands that? I don't understand the argument for that???....
Search and Factbook and some of the other guides...ONLY work for people that have a PHD in hieroglyphics or people with an I.Q. of 210 or higher or people that have grown up with it and now speak the hieroglyphics language 2nd nature.
I don't speak it... didn't grow up with it and only have an I.Q. of maybe 50? ... And I think there are a lot of people like me that are in the same boat. So why not make Search and Factbook work for us "little people" too?? Instead of adding functions and making it harder to understand and creating more guides to get around the real problem of search not working....
Isn't that the real problem with Search and Factbook.... It just don't work for the "little people" ... like me?
Now... I think this is a good discussion about Search and Factbook and all the other guides... and I pray that someone in Logosland... is actually reading these threads...
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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There are many tools that need to be improved but concrete suggestions are the way to make that happen.
I would recommend something along the lines of (along the lines of more complex db as an example) a simple Search with an Advanced option. As a fairly new user, I don't necessarily care about what tool is getting me the data - I just want the data. Several things that may be useful in the Advanced search:
- A tool that "walks" you to your answer. Something along the lines of, "what are you looking for?" Time | Event | etc.
- The second would be an option to at least attempt some boolean. This is the way that many semi-advanced users will want to search initially and may find value there. If this is a bridge too far, maybe there is a way to associate certain boolean with the native search syntax?
- Last, is a creative way to simplify the current search. I realize the brand new user may not be the target audience but this thread demonstrates that even seasoned users struggle with this. I love the idea of your ultimate layout. It provides a lot of the data at a glance.
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Many moons ago... I wrote programs for engineers and other people. Without a doubt... I could make the program so functionally perfect that nobody in their right mind could not use it.
My boss, a good man, often told me... if he can't understand how to use the program, then others can't either.
I say that about Search and Factbook. They are just too high in the sky. Bring 'em down!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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All you are doing by suggesting all these different functions is really showing how inept Search and Factbook really are.
I see it differently. It is recognising that Logos provides a range of tools - not just Search and Factbook - and choosing the appropriate tool for a particular job is useful in getting Logos to provide the information I want.
And what I am trying to do is suggest how to use Logos more effectively so you can get it to answer the questions you are asking of it. As I don't have any influence over the software - apart from making suggestions like anyone else - it's all I am able to do.
Search didn't work... so Logos started building all the guides
I also don't see that is the case - in that the Search function and Guides are designed to do different things.
Search, for example, is able to find passages where "grace and truth" are mentioned in the same verse.
But it isn't designed to help me explore all the different ways in which the word translated grace is used throughout the Bible - the Bible Word Study Guide is the tool for that.
And it isn't designed to enable me to quickly see what scholars have said about the prologue in John's Gospel - the Passage Guide is the tool for that.
And I don't want to have to train myself in all the hieroglyphics to use search. I'm a minister... schooled in Bible...and I just want to study my Bible and be able to use Search and Factbook to ASSIST me with that!
I do understand that - but to get the most out of using Logos to do Bible study does require, in my experience, some familiarity with the available tools and using them in the way they were designed. Working with the system achieves better results than trying to work against it.
The biggest problem I am finding now.. in Logos...IS THE SEARCH AND FACTBOOK FUNCTIONS don't work!
And I am really concerned about this - because we should expect them to work. But it is possible that they are not working in the way you want them to as opposed to not working at all? Apart from bugs, incomplete tagging of resources and some aspects not fully completed I think they are pretty much working as designed. But I do recognise they aren't working in a way that is helpful to you.
Search and Factbook and some of the other guides...ONLY work for people that have a PHD in hieroglyphics or people with an I.Q. of 210 or higher or people that have grown up with it and now speak the hieroglyphics language 2nd nature.
I don't know if you are using hyperbole here but I don't meet any of those conditions and do find that, in general, the tools give me the information I require. (I will admit to enjoying engaging with the details but I don't think that's necessary to get functionality from the software!)
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I appreciate all the suggestions about using all the different functions to try to find stuff hidden in my Logos Bible program...
(shifts head back and forth to pop muscles in neck.. takes a deep breath... then counts to 10...)
But folks... I don't want to have to take a course for all the many functions of Logos just to find out what function to use ...every time I want to find something. All you are doing by suggesting all these different functions is really showing how inept Search and Factbook really are. Think about it. Search didn't work... so Logos started building all the guides and then if someone like me complains about Search... then I'm told I should have used such and such guide.. At best that is a work-around to NOT have to fix Search!
And I don't want to have to train myself in all the hieroglyphics to use search. I'm a minister... schooled in Bible...and I just want to study my Bible and be able to use Search and Factbook to ASSIST me with that! I'm tired of my Bible program diverting my time to study to have to learn Search every time I go to use it. My time means something to me....
The biggest problem I am finding now.. in Logos...IS THE SEARCH AND FACTBOOK FUNCTIONS don't work! They change my focus from studying my Bible to studying Search or Factbook or whatever to find out how to use them... Why does anyone want to accept a Bible program that we pay very good money for...that demands that? I don't understand the argument for that???....
Search and Factbook and some of the other guides...ONLY work for people that have a PHD in hieroglyphics or people with an I.Q. of 210 or higher or people that have grown up with it and now speak the hieroglyphics language 2nd nature.
I don't speak it... didn't grow up with it and only have an I.Q. of maybe 50? ... And I think there are a lot of people like me that are in the same boat. So why not make Search and Factbook work for us "little people" too?? Instead of adding functions and making it harder to understand and creating more guides to get around the real problem of search not working....
Isn't that the real problem with Search and Factbook.... It just don't work for the "little people" ... like me?
Now... I think this is a good discussion about Search and Factbook and all the other guides... and I pray that someone in Logosland... is actually reading these threads...
Thanks, xnman. You express exactly what I feel. I have no other software tool for which I spent so much money on training. In fact, I haven't spent money on training for any other software. Just imagine: Who would spend money on a training course on how to use Google Search?
There are Logos users with a PhD in software engineering and they are still confused by the search hieroglyphics in Logos.
This thread shows that some people are experts with Logos search and all the different tools and guides. I sometimes even get the sense that some see the complexity as a welcome challenge. However, others are put off by the complexity and the confusing variety of tools / guides / assistants / .... that sometimes work for what I want to achieve but most of the time they don't. I just want things to work. Logos is supposed to be a tool to help me. However, after 19 years of using Logos, I still need help to use it.
Reading through all these discussions shows that there clearly is an issue. In the end, FL has to look at the ROI. I personally believe that investing into a proper Search and an intuitive GUI will pay off by attracting a larger user base.
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Working with the system achieves better results than trying to work against it.
Yes, this is a key characteristic of Logos in its current version: I have to work with Logos. But I believe Logos should work for me.
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This thread and other recent threads about Search complexity are so comforting and almost therapeutic to me... all this time I thought I was the only one with these struggles and I thought it was because I was lazy or unintelligent or haven't invested enough time and money to learn to use my main Bible tool.
I sincerely hope that Mark Barnes and others (the new CEO?) at FL/Logos are reading these threads... If you're here, please let us know you're hearing us?
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This thread and other recent threads about Search complexity are so comforting and almost therapeutic to me... all this time I thought I was the only one with these struggles and I thought it was because I was lazy or unintelligent or haven't invested enough time and money to learn to use my main Bible tool.
I sincerely hope that Mark Barnes and others (the new CEO?) at FL/Logos are reading these threads... If you're here, please let us know you're hearing us?
Well said, PL. I am actually afraid of Logos. I figure I am gonna get myself wedged sideways in one of its tools + have a real problem doing a 12 point turn to get out. I just learned a few days ago how to drop-kick a book into the cloud. And this is while studying the answer every time someone would ask, but I am not understanding it.
Lazy? I doubt you are, PL... I use Logos 3-4 hours 7 days a week.
Unintelligent? I read what you write; you are sharp... I am intelligent; this I know by living, taking tests, + observing others. Am I the sharpest? Not hardly.
Time + money? I figure the rig should be more intuitive. I believe there ought to be a mini-golf version of Logos. I figure there needs to be a next-step-up version of Logos that is intermediate. Then the current one should await one's increasing expertise.
I am stubborn re learning computer stuff. But, since I pay-to-play here, I believe FL should simplify the action. I do not wanna learn Logosese: [{( AND OR INTERSECTS...................All this should be behind the scenes, like the trany in my car.
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Time + money? I figure the rig should be more intuitive. I believe there ought to be a mini-golf version of Logos. I figure there needs to be a next-step-up version of Logos that is intermediate. Then the current one should await one's increasing expertise.
Could you expand on what you mean by these?
What sort of functionality, what "level of permitted complexity", is there at each level?
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I do understand that - but to get the most out of using Logos to do Bible study does require, in my experience, some familiarity with the available tools and using them in the way they were designed. Working with the system achieves better results than trying to work against it.
The biggest problem I am finding now.. in Logos...IS THE SEARCH AND FACTBOOK FUNCTIONS don't work!
And I am really concerned about this - because we should expect them to work. But it is possible that they are not working in the way you want them to as opposed to not working at all? Apart from bugs, incomplete tagging of resources and some aspects not fully completed I think they are pretty much working as designed. But I do recognise they aren't working in a way that is helpful to you.
I hope people on the forum understand...I have come to and do appreciate so many on the forum. My rants are not about you, they are about SEARCH only. Your suggestions and help has been a great blessing to me. And I thank you for that. I pray I have not offended anyone... I would be hurt if I did.
But... let's say I'm construction worker instead of a Bible person.... and I've worked in construction for several years, a ditch digger by trade... and I buy a shovel (a simple shovel) to help me dig and do my work,.... Does it sound reasonable...to have to "buy courses", to watch videos, to ask for help on how to use that shovel... etc.. every time I use it? Especially, after years of experience with my old shovel? My boss would probably look at me and say politely... "You don't know how to use a shovel? Your fired"!
My answer is NO! I have used search in other programs a very long time in my life... I have used Google search.... and most of the time... I don't have to study a course...watch videos... or ask anyone on how to find things.... and most of the time I find it first try.
That doesn't happen with me in Logos Search... oh I can find... names... places and things.. what I call very simple things.... but believe me... I don't think I have ever ask Logos Search anything more complicate than that what I have to keep on asking (or begging) to try to get close to some kind of answer that will help me.
I think that's just plain not good. As I have said.... I want to spend my time studying my Bible...NOT studying how to search and such.
And I do appreciate all the work... and I recognize there has been tons of work, that has been put into Logos to make it as good as it is...
But this guy... that needs a shovel.... and just can't make the shovel that is handed to him... work. And the shovel that is handed to him... causes him waste a lot of his time trying to figure out how to use it! Not acceptable to me... I'd fire me for wasting so much time... [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Could you expand on what you mean by these?
What sort of functionality, what "level of permitted complexity", is there at each level?
I'll take a stab at this.... In Search... we have what I call the top level meny consisting of [Bible, Basic, Media, Clause, Morph] - "I'll call Level 1".
Next level we have [Search All Morph Text in All Passages in The New King James Version for] - I'll call "Level 2".
Next is the search line... where we type in our request with all the hieroglyphics and such... and the chosen words of Near Far, wherever you are" and "Not" and whatever else goes with it... and remember to put Person, if its about a person...and on and on and on... I forget the rest... sorry. This is Leve 3....
Now...take Level 1.... why not have drop down menus under each selection with choices associated with each choice...
Then the same with Level 2...
And all the choices we choose is then put in Level 3 and then depending on what we have chosen ... then more drop down menus to solidify out search...
I think... with the Search we have.... this Level of Choices idea might work... another Level or two might have to be added.... but then I wouldn't have to remember all the symbols, what comes first, etc.... as I do now.
Also.... Doesn't that magnify how complicated Search is now?
Edit: Why not have a way of me choosing to have search search all my books only? So it takes a minute or two... ok. But it searches every book in my library when I choose that?????
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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And all the choices we choose is then put in Level 3 and then depending on what we have chosen ... then more drop down menus to solidify out search...
Thank you - that was helpful
This reminds me of something that was in a much earlier version of Logos - Logos 3- called the Search Query Builder (or some such name, I wasn't using it then). It didn't appear in Logos 4 (which was a significant redesign and has been the basis for Logos releases since then
Back in 2019, Phil from Faithlife asked what would be helpful in such a capability - which resulted in a very interesting thread at https://community.logos.com/forums/t/182288.aspx with some suggestions as to what that might look like. So far, that hasn't turned into an available solution. But it has similarities, I think, with what you are describing
I expect that one of the reasons this hasn't (yet) appeared, is it is quite a complex thing to develop
Edit: Why not have a way of me choosing to have search search all my books only? So it takes a minute or two... ok. But it searches every book in my library when I choose that?????
This is possible / easy today.
Select a Basic Search (your level 1)
Within that, ensure All Resources is selected in the second level line. Enter the search term and run it
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But this guy... that needs a shovel.... and just can't make the shovel that is handed to him... work. And the shovel that is handed to him... causes him waste a lot of his time trying to figure out how to use it! Not acceptable to me... I'd fire me for wasting so much time...
A good analogy except ... when working the garden, sometimes you need a shovel, sometimes a spade, sometimes a pickax, sometimes a hoe, sometimes a rake, sometimes a pitchfork ...FL can't "fix" the array of tools without feedback that makes it obvious that you're a shovel and only a shovel kind of worker. See SUGGESTION: Partially fix Search by fixing Factbook - Faithlife Forums (logos.com) for a suggestion on how to make Factbook better for only a shovel kind of worker.
Remember that no matter how simple FL makes it to enter a valid query, if you don't spend the time learning what the various search terms are, you will still get garbage results i.e. there is a complexity that is the direct result of the power.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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A good analogy except ... when working the garden, sometimes you need a shovel, sometimes a spade, sometimes a pickax, sometimes a hoe, sometimes a rake, sometimes a pitchfork ...FL can't "fix" the array of tools without feedback that makes it obvious that you're a shovel and only a shovel kind of worker. See SUGGESTION: Partially fix Search by fixing Factbook - Faithlife Forums (logos.com) for a suggestion on how to make Factbook better for only a shovel kind of worker.
Remember that no matter how simple FL makes it to enter a valid query, if you don't spend the time learning what the various search terms are, you will still get garbage results i.e. there is a complexity that is the direct result of the power.
Thanks MJ... remember.... I referred to a ditch digger... lol
And I'm willing to "learn" search.... just not willing to have to "learn" it every time I use it. [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Graham... I'll work with that again.... I admit I may have missed things.... with an I.Q. of 50... well... it can happen to me.... [8-|]
Thanks
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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I referred to a ditch digger.
Sorry, in hard clay soil I grew up on, a ditch digger uses a pickax. lol
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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