Comments on the Search

MJ. Smith
MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,133
edited November 21 in English Forum

I get tired of users taking potshots at the search and end up sounding as if I am more pleased with the search than I actually am. Over the years there have been some concrete suggestions that get lost in the grousing. For example, some that I remember:

  • the use of multiple kinds of brackets make the search more complex -- switch to a single format
  • the hidden perimeters in the panel menu need to be visible
  • the span of the text scanned is hidden in the search type -- make it visible rather than esoteric knowledge
  • make the boolean operator notation and the list notation work the same way when combined into more complex arguments
  • make the clause level search elements useable in a Bible-basic-morphology search
  • add more templates and/or reinstate the cookbook format so that many more potential tags are offered
  • centralize documentation
  • build a search argument builder that, at a minimum, ensures that the syntax is valid
  • allow tool-tip translation for some operators (NEAR, WITHIN) and keywords
  • clarify what resources are coded with what FL tags
  • allow text searches to recognize alternative spellings and names (especially in geographic names)
  • allow users to save their more complex searches as templates
  • support regular expressions for the expert original languages scholar
  • support the wildcards by making them efficient enough for use
  • integrate Bible Browser and Factbook as explicit alternatives to a search 

Before Faithlife has determined what all will be in Logos 10, let's let FL know what concrete improvements we really want in L10's search. Not meaningless "fix it", "simplify it", "improve it" but concrete suggestions we can see that they did or did not do. 

Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

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Comments

  • PL
    PL Member Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭

    • the use of multiple kinds of brackets make the search more complex -- switch to a single format
    • the hidden perimeters in the panel menu need to be visible
    • add more templates and/or reinstate the cookbook format so that many more potential tags are offered
    • allow text searches to recognize alternative spellings and names (especially in geographic names)

    Yes!

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭

    Okay.... (takes a deep breath....exhales... interlocks fingers and stretches arms and cracks knuckles...)  Here is my rant....

    I want it to be so easy to use so that even people like me can use it ! ! !

    Fixing what we have. by adding more functions to it, will only end up in "bloating" it more by adding more hieroglyphics that only a NASA physics engineer with a PHD in the stuff can understand..

    I want to be able to find.... i.e. things about Paul.... or Peter or Gamaliel... or ... Tarsus... or whoever or whatever... I am studying about.

    I am not able to do that with Search or with Factbook... unless I study for 30 minutes to find out how to do it. That wastes my time needlessly.  I call that "Make work Interruptus" in my studies. I start searching... and then search this way and that way and then run some of the guides... and then spend time and changing my focus from my Bible study topic to trying to find out how to search... and quit in frustration and go to Google....Or WordSearch.... to find what I want...after I've spent time trying to figure out how to do it in Logos Search....

    I want Search, Factbook or whatever to search every book I have in my library... or a collection or a specific book....if I so choose .... as it stands now... I have shown in other threads... that some of the books from Wordsearch don't seem to be searched...  That is just plain old NOT GOOD! I don't trust it now... If the book info starts with "ws..." then it  is suspected to be left out of search by me....

    In Factbook... when I type in Paul (or whomever) I want to see every "fact" I have in my library about that man... .from birth to death... I.e. what he ate for breakfast, what clothes he wore... or anything that is in my library about that person. I have not found anything near that to happen so far.... and as I said... when it misses books from WordSearch.... and me having come from WordSearch and and WordSearch books being a good percentage of my library...then I only get a small percentage of the information in my library at best...  And I wonder if the same thing is happening (missing books, etc) in Search??

    I think Logos has the brainpower.... and the facilities but I think Search is so overpowered in that it can do so much that it actually becomes powerless to do anything (maybe because of just keeping on adding functions to it when people i.e. me... can't remember the functions in the first place)  and then is left to be a "make work" process of trying to find out how to use it. I don't like having to go to school to learn how to use Search or Factbook just to find out something I need when I am studying....  I want to focus on my study... Not focus on how to learn to search for something... PERIOD!  When it interrupts my study to find out how to find something...The function is not working for me then... I am working for the function and my focus is changed from my study to learning search or factbook.... Not the way I want to work in my Bible software! There's a time for learning Search and and time for using it to study with... not keep on studying Search.

    And Factbook..... in my opinion ... is just plain inept.... in that it misses most of what I seem to want to trying to find. I don't believe I have ever actually found Factbook to be helpful and I have tried many times with it. I actually don't use it now... and it seems it POPS UP all the time when I am trying to find something... another "MAKE WORK INTERRUPTUS" in that I have to clear it out of the way to go on... NOT GOOD! It reminds me of Microsoft and their browser Edge... Is Logos trying to force us to use Factbook?

    So I says to myself... "Self... this is your fault".... so I (more than once) plow into watching videos on search and Factbook....and I take some time and actually played with Search and Factbook.... More than once I've done that...and for the life of me....I cannot get my mind wrapped around how the programmer of those 2 functions (and some of the guides) actually intended them to work.... that goes for Bible Browser and some of the other guides also.... 

    I like what I think the concept of them is to be... I think they are a needed function in Logos .... but ... they just don't work. All one has to do is research the forums at all the questions and  complaints that have been posted about this.... I have read many times where someone has ask... how to find something... and I see things like {intersect this and near that and without such and such}...Talk about complication to the extreme!  ... I wonder if any of the people that write this stuff actually use it and if they don't use it every hour... do they forget how to use it????

    I don't like being this negative... but I didn't realize how much time the Search and the Guides have been costing me... (EVEN IF I REMEMBER WHICH ONE OF THEM TO USE!)  ... But now I have come to that realization... and It just ain't right! I love to study my Bible... and I think Logos is a great tool to do that....but something has to be done about Search and Guides and such...  quit making different ways to find something and make one way that works.... PLEASE! It is time!

    Stupidity is said to be "doing the same old things the same old way and expecting different results".... I think Logos people are smarter than that!

    I am just trying to express my opinion... I don't mean any anger or attitude.... 

    Now.... I know people are going to tell me where I am wrong... and I am open to the idea that I am... I am willing to learn.... but not willing to have to constantly learn to use one function over and over to infinity. 

    xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • Mike Binks
    Mike Binks MVP Posts: 7,433

    I want it to be so easy to use so that even people like me can use it ! ! !

    Don't count on this being a regular occurrence but I agree with the xnman, though with a name like that I wouldn't want to come across him in a dark alley.

    I can shout at my alarm clock. 'What is the latest news from Ukraine?' and it responds with a sensible answer.

    Why can't I shout at my computer, 'How many times did Paul cross the Salamis Strait and did he buy a single or a return ticket?"

    tootle pip

    Mike

    How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,474

    I can shout at my alarm clock. 'What is the latest news from Ukraine?' and it responds with a sensible answer.

    Why can't I shout at my computer, 'How many times did Paul cross the Salamis Strait and did he buy a single or a return ticket?"

    There is a question of scale here. Your alarm clock is powered by the search knowledge of a Google or Microsoft which are significantly larger organisations than Faithlife.

    And I think even your alarm clock might struggle with the question about Paul and the Salamis Strait!!

    Please don't misunderstand me - I would love it if the Logos search capabilties were simpler but am aware of some of the challenges of making that happen.

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭

    ...... though with a name like that I wouldn't want to come across him in a dark alley.

    LOL ---- I needed a good chuckle today..... Thanks!  It reminded me of the story of the bear chasing a man. The man got tired and shouted at the bear.... "You're a Christian, act like it!" to which the bear said... "You are right, let us pray... Dear Lord, for this meal I'm about to eat, I truly give thanks!"

    xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭

    There is a question of scale here. Your alarm clock is powered by the search knowledge of a Google or Microsoft which are significantly larger organisations than Faithlife.

    And I think even your alarm clock might struggle with the question about Paul and the Salamis Strait!!

    Please don't misunderstand me - I would love it if the Logos search capabilties were simpler but am aware of some of the challenges of making that happen.

    1. Mike has a lot smarter alarm clock that I do.... mine only says "Tic -Tok"...

    And I am hoping that Logos will start thinking about how to make Search simpler... where there is a will.... there is a way!

    xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • PL
    PL Member Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭

    I want it to be so easy to use so that even people like me can use it ! ! !

    where there is a will.... there is a way!

    Totally agree!! Faithlife, please rethink Search for the regular, non-superusers! I know it's not easy to make Logos search like Google. But the fact is, we've all been trained/spoiled by the ease of use and intuitiveness of Google search for years now.

    Please make Search simpler and more intuitive and user-friendly.

    I know I've brought this up many times before, and Faithlife hasn't responded and has just made Search more complex. I feel like we're talking into a black hole. But one can only hope... maybe hope that with the addition of someone like Mark Barnes that somebody at Logos will finally hear us?

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,133

    But the fact is, we've all been trained/spoiled by the ease of use and intuitiveness of Google search for years now.

    But Faithlife does do a decent job of being Google - a straight text search. Where it falls behind Google is in recognizing synonyms/closely related terms.

    If you want Google-like behavior take away:

    • all Biblical people, Biblical place, Biblical thing, and Biblical event searches
    • remove all proximity search operators
    • remove all original language - translation relationships
    • remove all morphology search arguments
    • remove all grammatical search arguments
    • remove all semantic search arguments
    • remove all discourse analysis arguments
    • remove all speech arguments
    • remove all label based arguments
    • remove all lemma based searches
    • remove all root based searches
    • remove all the Bible sense searches
    • remove most of the ability to control what is searched

    how far do you want me to carry the argument? I didn't pay for a Google search -- I can do that on Google. I paid for a Logos/Verbum search that accesses FL coding not simply the surface text.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,133

    Please make Search simpler and more intuitive and user-friendly.

    Give some concrete suggestions please, remembering that it already has basic Google capailities.

    I know I've brought this up many times before, and Faithlife hasn't responded and has just made Search more complex.

    They have tried to simplify it by switching from cookbook (poorly used by users) to templates for searching (rarely used by users if the forum chatter is reflective of use).

    They have tried to simplify it by introducing the Bible Browser as a replacement for a search for many searches of the average user.

    The only recent complication that I remember is the addition of the {Section} option which solved many problems for the intermediate user.

    Mark Barnes can do little to make them hear us as they have already been listening. What he can do, if FL has the resources to devote to the problem, is provide guidance as to what changes actually improve the function, what changes are simply superficial improvements, and what compromises for the available resources are acceptable. Remember that changes to the search syntax requires:

    • the conversion of user saved searches
    • the conversion of the search arguments in the context menu
    • the conversion of the search arguments in the Factbook
    • the conversion of the search arguments in the Guides

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,133

    I want Search, Factbook or whatever to search every book I have in my library... or a collection or a specific book

    To mimic Google in Logos

    1. chose a Basic Search
    2. chose All Resources (OR a collection OR a specific book)
    3. enter only text search elements e.g. Paul, "Garden of Eden"
    4. use only AND and OR as you would in Google

    That will search all your resources (collection, specific book) for the requested text. If I understand you correctly, this is all you want.

    In Factbook... when I type in Paul (or whomever) I want to see every "fact" I have in my library about that man... .from birth to death..

    This feature is one I know of no software to do in any application.  Factbook provides the links to potential facts. It is comprehensive on Biblical information, reasonably complete for Bible Dictionaries, Bible Commentaries and a few other resource types, and spotty on monographs etc.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • PL
    PL Member Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭

    Hi MJ,

    Thank you for your responses. Unfortunately, I don't understand most of your two posts. (The problem is on my side; please do not be offended.)

    • I don't understand what you mean by removing all those other search options (I don't know what they are) and how to do that.
    • I don't know what's a "cookbook" vs "templates."
    • I occasionally use the Bible Browser but I wouldn't know what to choose on the left-hand-side; I usually just type in whatever I need to look for in the Find box and then somewhat randomly try choosing different options.
    • I don't know what's the {Section} option.
    • I don't understand your bullet points about conversions.

    When I say Google-style searches, I don't mean only searching plain text in the Bible. I mean, for example, if I want to know how many wives Moses had, and who were they, I simply open Google, and start typing who were moses and Google will start prompting me to complete my query: who were moses's wives 

    Almost always, I would find the answer either:

    • Within the first 10 or so search results, and/or
    • In one of the options under the "People Also Ask" section.

    This works for just about anything I need to ask, biblically related or not. But I would not know how to execute such a search in Logos. I can go to Bible Search and type in Moses wives and Logos will give me 4 completely irrelevant options. If I type in Moses wife in Bible Search, I get a long list of different people's wives but don't seem to find Moses' wife even if I slowly scroll through to the end of that list.

    Even with the Bible Browser, I can type in Moses in the Find box, but it filters down to what looks like 100+ options. I would not know which one to choose. If I type in Moses wife or Moses wives in the Find box, the left-hand-side blanks out.

    Thank you for your patience bearing with my ignorance of the product. But I hope this simple example illustrates the difficulties a regular user has with Logos search. (I'm currently a pastor; previously an IT person; has been a Logos user since Logos 2.)

    I hope this example is helpful to Mark Barnes and Logos as well in designing the next iteration of search functionality for non-advanced users like myself. Thanks.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,133

    I don't understand what you mean by removing all those other search options (I don't know what they are) and how to do that.

    I simply mean that 95% (guess) of the searches run in Logos would not be available.

    I don't know what's a "cookbook" vs "templates."

    What we have now are templates as the help attached to the search type in the search panel; one or two major versions back it was a cookbook style help. If you've not used the old style don't worry about it.

    I occasionally use the Bible Browser but I wouldn't know what to choose on the left-hand-side; I usually just type in whatever I need to look for in the Find box and then somewhat randomly try choosing different options.

    If you don't have a basic understanding of how to use the browser, its sounds as if your style of learn requires specific training. No design will change that. Typing in the Find box is exactly what you should do; randomly trying options is an inefficient way to identify the correct option.

    I don't know what's the {Section} option.

    That is a positive - you need to learn more of the basics before you address this extension. It was included to counter your assertion that Faithlife was making the search more complex in recent version.

    I don't understand your bullet points about conversions.

    If one changes the input to the search then you need to change every place that Logos/Verbum builds a search input for the user.

    I simply open Google, and start typing who were moses and Google will start prompting me to complete my query: who were moses's wives 

    What you are saying is that the Google autocomplete function is better trained to meet your needs which is simply a matter of the volume of data Google has to tune its autocomplete and the powerful server farms managing it. I missed your meaning on that because I think of autocomplete and search as different functions.

    Even with the Bible Browser, I can type in Moses in the Find box, but it filters down to what looks like 100+ options. I would not know which one to choose. If I type in Moses wife or Moses wives in the Find box, the left-hand-side blanks out.

    It sounds as if you are not making a distinction between a word and a phrase. The facet list blanking out simply means that what you entered does not exist. I would expect this because I would expect it to use her name. To find the name of the wife of Moses, I would open Factbook to Moses; go to the See also section with Relatives subsection - seventh entry is Zipporah. If I were determined to find the name via a search, I would use a search on a single Bible for "Moses wife" without quotes - this gives me 23 verses to scan to find her name.

    I think this should be helpful to Mark as it illustrates the thought patterns that interfere with using even the basic searches.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭

    A spot of good news to people like me that find Search so frustrating... I think there is a glimmer of hope for me..... lol 

    PL.... believe me... I feel your pain!

    Check this out!

    xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭

    I want Search, Factbook or whatever to search every book I have in my library... or a collection or a specific book

    To mimic Google in Logos

    1. chose a Basic Search
    2. chose All Resources (OR a collection OR a specific book)
    3. enter only text search elements e.g. Paul, "Garden of Eden"
    4. use only AND and OR as you would in Google

    That will search all your resources (collection, specific book) for the requested text. If I understand you correctly, this is all you want.

    This feature is one I know of no software to do in any application.  Factbook provides the links to potential facts. It is comprehensive on Biblical information, reasonably complete for Bible Dictionaries, Bible Commentaries and a few other resource types, and spotty on monographs etc.

    MJ - No offense...

    1. WordSearch did that. I used it all the time. It searched my whole library... No bout adout it!

    2. I don't believe it (total library search) actually happens with us users that came from WordSearch... if we have books with information that starts with "ws...." (which indicates it was transferred from WordSearch)  then I believe and have shown in other threads that some of those books are not in Factbook or Search.. That may have changed now but "missing" WS books in Search did happen....  This is one of the things that frustrated me a lot about searching in Logos... among the fact that I still don't know how to actually do a search in Logos.... lol   Hopefully this week I can spend some time and check my "ws..." books in Search and Factbook... again. And I do hope I am wrong on this.

    Now ... if all the books were purchased in Logos and not come from WordSearch... then I believe what you say is correct.

    xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,474

    2. I don't believe it (total library search) actually happens with us users that came from WordSearch... if we have books with information that starts with "ws...." (which indicates it was transferred from WordSearch)  then I believe and have shown in other threads that some of those books are not in Factbook or Search.. That may have changed now but "missing" WS books in Search did happen....  This is one of the things that frustrated me a lot about searching in Logos... among the fact that I still don't know how to actually do a search in Logos.... lol   Hopefully this week I can spend some time and check my "ws..." books in Search and Factbook... again. And I do hope I am wrong on this.

    I can understand books transferred over from Wordsearch not appearing in Factbook entries. That needs specific tagging and is the case for a range of books purchased directly through Logos as well.

    For a book that has been transferred across to not appear in a basic Search sounds very strange. If you do find any examples please do let us know - ideally in a new thread so we can focus on that specifically.

  • PL
    PL Member Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭

    What you are saying is that the Google autocomplete function is better trained to meet your needs which is simply a matter of the volume of data Google has to tune its autocomplete and the powerful server farms managing it. I missed your meaning on that because I think of autocomplete and search as different functions.

    Thanks for your reply, MJ.

    Just to clarify, the autocomplete part of Google is only a small bonus for me. I don't rely on it. I can certainly type the whole query myself without help or prompting. (But I do feel that the very accurate autocomplete options in Google do give me the reassurance that many other people are also interested in this information, have asked for the same info, and that the way I typed it in is something Google understands and has dealt with before.)

    My main struggle is that:

    • I can't type in a plain query into Logos like I do in Google and expect Logos to understand and process it; and
    • Even if I get the query right, more often than not the right result is not discoverable in the first 10 or so results as in the case of Google.

    Searching for Moses' wife may not be a good example. Of course I know who she is. It was just the first thing that popped into my mind when I typed the above message last night. My point is, beyond simple queries where the Bible text clearly provides the answer, when it comes to needing to utilize the multitude of special taggings that are behind the Logos Bible texts, to search using those tags, special syntax and different brackets, I feel very helpless and don't know where or how to start (other than trying the Bible Browser).

    But my question is, why does Logos force all users to learn all this syntax and special tags in order to harness its power? Why can't we just type in something like what questions did god ask in the bible or what commands did jesus give to peter and expect Logos to return a relatively accurate list, no more and no less? Wouldn't that make Logos a much more attractive, usable, powerful, and user-friendly and lay-friendly platform?

    My few cents, from an (below-)average but long-time user.

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,474

    Why can't we just type in something like what questions did god ask in the bible or what commands did jesus give to peter and expect Logos to return a relatively accurate list, no more and no less?

    I think this is a great question to ask and I think it shows some of the issues.

    Taking either of those questions and entering them in Google doesn't give a very good set of answers. In fact, in the first case one of the first responses I got was that God asked seven questions in the Bible (and the list doesn't differentiate between those asked by the Father and those asked by Jesus). An article a few results further down has a longer list. So while some answers are given they aren't very helpful

    So breaking down the two questions you provide and thinking about how a software program could respond to it:

    • they both start with what - so a mechanism for telling the software you are asking it a question
    • then one has questions while the other has commands. This could tell the software whether you are interested in commands or questions
    • the did ia effectively a natural language filler that the software could ignore
    • and you then specify who are you interested in either asking the question or giving the command
    • in the last course you specify the recipient of the command (or question)

    So your questions are well-formed and consistent and, theoretically, a program could work out what you meant and come up with a search to satisfy it. (Incidentally, Faithlife started developing something like this with the Faithlife Assistant tool but it is still quite limited)

    But as soon as someone starts asking these questions in a slightly different way - such as "what did God ask in the Bible" or "what did Jesus tell Peter to do" - suddenly the cases the software needs to cater for are significantly increased.

    That's one of the reasons why many programs require specific syntax so the commands can be interpreted correctly.

    Wouldn't that make Logos a much more attractive, usable, powerful, and user-friendly and lay-friendly platform?

    Absolutely it would but, as above, there are real challenges in doing something like that.

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭

    Just to clarify, the autocomplete part of Google is only a small bonus for me. I don't rely on it. I can certainly type the whole query myself without help or prompting. (But I do feel that the very accurate autocomplete options in Google do give me the reassurance that many other people are also interested in this information, have asked for the same info, and that the way I typed it in is something Google understands and has dealt with before.)

    My main struggle is that:

    • I can't type in a plain query into Logos like I do in Google and expect Logos to understand and process it; and
    • Even if I get the query right, more often than not the right result is not discoverable in the first 10 or so results as in the case of Google.

    Searching for Moses' wife may not be a good example. Of course I know who she is. It was just the first thing that popped into my mind when I typed the above message last night. My point is, beyond simple queries where the Bible text clearly provides the answer, when it comes to needing to utilize the multitude of special taggings that are behind the Logos Bible texts, to search using those tags, special syntax and different brackets, I feel very helpless and don't know where or how to start (other than trying the Bible Browser).

    Hear, Hear and Hear!!

    Challenges are what programmers are made for!  Where there is a will and a bit of imagination, there is a way!

    xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • PL
    PL Member Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭

    Taking either of those questions and entering them in Google doesn't give a very good set of answers.

    That's why we pay so much money to buy Logos!

    So breaking down the two questions you provide and thinking about how a software program could respond to it

    Again, my point is not those two specific questions. Those are just quick examples. My point is, I know that Logos has done a ton of work doing all kinds of tagging behind the texts. That's why Logos resources are often more expensive, we're told. But the power behind the taggings are trapped behind some complicated syntax that are not understandable by many (most?) average users. That's not just a frustration at a personal level as one of those users. I want to see all that power unleashed so that the masses (the average users) can also harness and enjoy the accuracy and usefulness of what can (potentially) be unlocked... without resorting to random trial and error or asking for forum help each time.

    By the way, what would be the search syntax for the above two examples, and how does one go about arriving at that syntax in the current Logos?

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 3,087

    Hear, Hear and Hear!!

    Challenges are what programmers are made for!  Where there is a will and a bit of imagination, there is a way!

    I can appreciate your enthusiasm, but if history is any guide the 'why-we-can't', and 'Google-can't-do-that' are simply Musak, that precedes a-little-this-and-a-little-that improvement.

    It's like K-Mart shoppers wanting Walmart results. Start with the staff.

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,474

    By the way, what would be the search syntax for the above two examples, and how does one go about arriving at that syntax in the current Logos?

    For the first one I would use {Section <PropositionalOutline = Question>} WITHIN {Speaker <Person God>}

    For the second I would use ({Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS {Addressee <Person Peter>}) WITHIN {Section <PropositionalOutline = Command>}

    I would generate these by right-clicking an instance of one of these and looking at search term options in the context menu.

    EDIT: Apologies - I didn't have time to provide more details regarding how to generate these searches. If people are interested, I could do so later.

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,474

    Incidentally, both of these are great applications of the Bible Browser Tool

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭

    Incidentally, both of these are great applications of the Bible Browser Tool

    Graham Criddle....

    You had mentioned Bible Brower in another thread... and to tell the truth, I had not used it much... Sooooo I put it through it's paces today.... and to tell the truth... I think I have overlooked a good tool. I find it very helpful in finding stuff... 

    Thank you.

    xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,474

    Sooooo I put it through it's paces today.... and to tell the truth... I think I have overlooked a good tool. I find it very helpful in finding stuff... 

    That is really good to hear

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,133

    When I say Google-style searches, I don't mean only searching plain text in the Bible. I mean, for example, if I want to know how many wives Moses had, and who were they, I simply open Google, and start typing who were moses and Google will start prompting me to complete my query: who were moses's wives 

    Duh (with head slap) ... I am sometimes slow to see the obvious - what you are looking for is not a search but something like a fully developed Faithlife Assistant.  You need to push for further development with the questions you are looking for.At the moment, it answers questions such as:

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    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."