BUGGY BUG: This one is about as annoying as it gets
BEHOLD!! The SERIF font in the note window produces a SANS SERIF output in the note pop-up!!
BEHOLD!! The SANS SERIF font in the note window produces a SERIF output in the note pop-up!!
This is stupid.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Ever since L9 came out, it has been riddled with inanities and process-breaking gremlins that have put a drastic crimp in my workflows. WHY are these things allowed to continue for years without being resolved?
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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WHY are these things allowed to continue for years without being resolved?
Limited resources.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ever since L9 came out, it has been riddled with inanities and process-breaking gremlins that have put a drastic crimp in my workflows. WHY are these things allowed to continue for years without being resolved?
The look of text is not considered to be a serious bug by Logos development evidently. "Process-breaking gremlins" and "drastic crimp in my workflows" is a bit of hyperbolic melodrama for a wrong font error of this nature, don't you think? If nobody has reported it before, then they might never have noticed it. And even if it has been reported before, it's obviously not a showstopper.
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"Process-breaking gremlins" and "drastic crimp in my workflows" is a bit of hyperbolic melodrama for a wrong font error of this nature, don't you think?
AgreeIf nobody has reported it before, then they might never have noticed it.
I've reported the same problem with Factbook.0 -
My impression is they get real excited about presentation. Fonts, spacing, amount of white space and so on. But that was when they had a goodly amount of staff pursuing that world. Now, it's getting a bit rough around the edges. Yesterday I noticed a lengthy horizontal scrollbar on a panel, almost black (serious Logosian violation!). The button for multiview is almost indistinguishable (on/off/busy sequence).
OTOH, hebrew is always a Logosian yawner. They never did calm down the sizing, so it doesn't break up the text flow so badly.
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Why? Because we users continue to spend our hard earned money on this product regardless of how many bugs it has. I'm very disappointed in Logos and their lack of concern and quality control. There is not a competing product, they know it, this what we get.
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Ever since L9 came out, it has been riddled with inanities and process-breaking gremlins that have put a drastic crimp in my workflows. WHY are these things allowed to continue for years without being resolved?
The look of text is not considered to be a serious bug by Logos development evidently. "Process-breaking gremlins" and "drastic crimp in my workflows" is a bit of hyperbolic melodrama for a wrong font error of this nature, don't you think? If nobody has reported it before, then they might never have noticed it. And even if it has been reported before, it's obviously not a showstopper.
I would agree with his overall point about Logos 9 though. It has been the single most workflow-disruptive upgrade for me in terms of the impact of the bugs/flaws/changes/inconsistencies (I came in on Logos 6 for context). Logos 9 has caused me to turn off automatic updates for the first time since I've been a Logos user, and I'm normally someone who has automatic updates turned on for pretty much everything else on my computer.
It's sad because I feel like Logos 9 was a bit of a bait and switch because it didn't seem like it was going to be a drastic overhaul the way Logos 8 was. But Logos 9 has literally changed the way I use Logos in numerous ways just because of the various bugs (especially ones relating to scaling and small screens) and how they have changed the toolbar (bolting on more and more buttons).
End of rant.
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It has been the single most workflow-disruptive upgrade for me in terms of the impact of the bugs/flaws/changes/inconsistencies (I came in on Logos 6 for context). Logos 9 has caused me to turn off automatic updates for the first time
I had not gleaned this from the forum posts and I had few issues myself. Those for whom the bugs/flaws/changes/inconsistencies impacted their workflow should have been more vocal. There are some of us who would have changed our priorities for feedback and forum pressure had we known the problems were more than an inconvenience.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It has been the single most workflow-disruptive upgrade for me in terms of the impact of the bugs/flaws/changes/inconsistencies (I came in on Logos 6 for context). Logos 9 has caused me to turn off automatic updates for the first time
I had not gleaned this from the forum posts and I had few issues myself. Those for whom the bugs/flaws/changes/inconsistencies impacted their workflow should have been more vocal. There are some of us who would have changed our priorities for feedback and forum pressure had we known the problems were more than an inconvenience.
People have been vocal. Maybe those problems didn't impact you. But both I and others have been vocal in reporting problems and complaining about bugs and disruptive changes. I've seen plenty of posts, so I guess it's just a difference in perspective. But to simply declare that people haven't been vocal is unfair. The problem is too many people spend too much time downplaying the problems people do complain about, kind of like what's happening on this thread.
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But to simply declare that people haven't been vocal is unfair.
If that is what I'd said it would have been unfair. I did not say people had not reported the problem. I said they had not made clear that it "impacted their workflow"..
The problem is too many people spend too much time downplaying the problems people do complain about,
I have not seen this as a common issue unless you count teaching people to use the software as designed rather than asking it to do what it is not designed for and is unable to do as "downplaying". One can always request a change in how the features work but you have to use them as they do work.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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But to simply declare that people haven't been vocal is unfair.
If that is what I'd said it would have been unfair. I did not say people had not reported the problem. I said they had not made clear that it "impacted their workflow"..
People have been vocal about this precise thing. So I still think the statement is unfair.
The problem is too many people spend too much time downplaying the problems people do complain about,
I have not seen this as a common issue unless you count teaching people to use the software as designed rather than asking it to do what it is not designed for and is unable to do as "downplaying". One can always request a change in how the features work but you have to use them as they do work.
1. Sometimes people are suggesting that the design is not working for their needs. Simply telling them how to use the software as designed (though helpful in one sense) is not directly addressing the core issue that they might be voicing, so it comes across as downplaying even if that's not how it's intended. Even if someone doesn't have the knowledge that you have about the design, doesn't mean their feedback on whether or not the tool is meeting their needs is invalid.
2. You "not seeing" something from the perspective of a forum MVP doesn't dictate what others are experiencing, so you are not the expert on what others are experiencing and therefore don't get to declare from on high that it's not happening just because you're coming from a different vantage point. You in particular have a tendency to confuse your perspective and your user experience with what is reality for everyone, and thus don't view it as merely your perspective but as absolute fact. If MJ doesn't see it or experience it, then it is not happening. When you and others do that, it results in downplaying what others are reporting. Saying people haven't been vocal about disruptions is rather obtuse and not helpful (and untrue), especially considering the fact that you yourself have been involved in many of those types of threads.
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If MJ doesn't see it or experience it, then it is not happening.
Now THAT'S unfair -- and uncharacteristic of you. What's the real issue here?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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People have been vocal about this precise thing. So I still think the statement is unfair.
I tend to read the forums at least daily - I am getting forgetful but I simply don't recall other threads with the issue noted in the OP.
It may be as David writes 'Stupid' and I wonder with him why this would be so.
I believe David when he says that this affects his work flow although I must admit to be mystified as to how the font used in something so ephemeral as a Pop Up would put a serious block on work accomplished. I guess this is because I am not involved in the work that David is doing.
I would have liked to have read in that post something along the lines of... When I am trying to X this pop-up turning up with a different font means that I cannot do Y/ I have to do Z to rectify the situation/ makes the pop-up useless because...
That would help me put myself in David's shoes.
I am a 'Logos-light' user but whenever a problem appears in the Forums I try, at least to replicate it. Oft times I am baffled and make no comment. Sometimes I can confirm the problem but know no solution. Sometimes I can actually offer a solution.
A case in point being the long running thread which essentially boiled down to 'Every time I type something in the Go box and press Enter; Factbook opens. I don't want Factbook to open'. Solution 'Don't press Enter!'.
If I don't understand the problem I stand no chance of being able to contribute to a solution.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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People have been vocal about this precise thing. So I still think the statement is unfair.
I tend to read the forums at least daily - I am getting forgetful but I simply don't recall other threads with the issue noted in the OP.
When I said "this precise thing" I mean David's comment about Logos 9 being disruptive to his workflow below:
Ever since L9 came out, it has been riddled with inanities and process-breaking gremlins that have put a drastic crimp in my workflows. WHY are these things allowed to continue for years without being resolved?
I wasn't talking about the specific issue he's reporting in this thread. Rosie said David's above comment was melodramatic, I said that I agreed with David's overall sentiment about Logos 9, MJ said users should have been more vocal about that, I said that they have and that it was unfair to say they hadn't.
It may be as David writes 'Stupid' and I wonder with him why this would be so.
I believe David when he says that this affects his work flow although I must admit to be mystified as to how the font used in something so ephemeral as a Pop Up would put a serious block on work accomplished. I guess this is because I am not involved in the work that David is doing.
I took this as David's specific issue reminding him of how frustrated he was about other issues with Logos 9, especially since he added it as a separate post. I was simply echoing and affirming his overall sentiment of frustration about some Logos 9 issues being disruptive to the way he works.
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Hi David,
I was able to reproduce this and I've created a bug report.
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I wasn't talking about the specific issue he's reporting in this thread.
I took this as David's specific issue reminding him of how frustrated he was about other issues with Logos 9,
When I said "this precise thing" I mean David's comment about Logos 9 being disruptive to his workflow below:
Thanks for the explanation Kiyah – I guess this comes from trying to deal with 'generalities' in what some expect to be a 'technical' environment.
Although Philana seems to have honed in on the specific issue and is ensuring it is given some attention.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Simply telling them how to use the software as designed
How I see my "job" as an MVP - which may not be how other MVPs' view it:
- my primary task is to answer questions on how to use Logos/Verbum or, if the user knows how to get what they want, provide them with more efficient or accurate ways to achieve the same results; this must be done at the appropriate skill level of the OP. This also requires that I keep my own skills and knowledge honed and that I cut through the rant to the actual issue.
- my secondary task is to encourage users to put their suggestions on feedback.faithlife.com, sometimes requiring that I assist them in formulating their suggestion. It is not my job to judge the value of their suggestions - I provide the same help whether I want or don't want the proposed feature/change.
- my third task is the same as everyone in the forums and is taken from the guidelines: "Please help others follow these guidelines." Because, in the past, Faithlife had to block an individual from harassing me due to my "denomination," I tend to be more sensitive to the mistreatment of the "marginalized" denominations in the users' majority mindset. Often it is simply a case of lack of exposure to the broad range of Christianity reflected in the user base.
- it is my "job" to complete these tasks without becoming visibly frustrated/impatient with users who don't provide requested information, need to be told three-times before they actually try the suggested solution and find it works, use the forum to vent without checking their facts, . . .
- it is not my job to be a spiritual director, psychologist, apologist, or punching bag
from the perspective of a forum MVP
My perspective as an MVP differs from my perspective as a Verbum user only by the obligation to read the majority of posts in the relevant forums e.g. I skip mobile because I do not use it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks, MJ, for doing what you do herein listed.
Thanks for bumping queries.
>>> + thanks to the other folks that help on the fora, as well.
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Thanks, MJ, for doing what you do herein listed.
Thanks for bumping queries.
>>> + thanks to the other folks that help on the fora, as well.
[Y]
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Hi David,
I was able to reproduce this and I've created a bug report.
[Y]
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Ever since L9 came out, it has been riddled with inanities and process-breaking gremlins that have put a drastic crimp in my workflows. WHY are these things allowed to continue for years without being resolved?
I understand this frustration, and I'm sorry. We'd love to be able to accommodate everyone's suggested changes. In reality, of course, that's impractical. In the last few months, we have begun a long-term strategy to help us fix more bugs, so we hope that you'll start to see some improvements over the next year or so.
To answer your question specifically, WHY are these things allowed to continue for years without being resolved? I checked our bug tracker, and we've resolved 96 bugs in the last 30 days. So a lot of bugs are getting fixed. But why do some not get fixed, or not get fixed for a long time? It could be one of several reasons. These are not specific to Faithlife/Logos. This would be the case for any software developer.
- It's not a bug, even though it's behavior that some users don't like.
- It's not something we can reproduce.
- The effort needed to fix the bug is disproportionate to the number of users affected.
- The effort needed to fix the bug is disproportionate to the severity of the problem.
- We're planning to enhance the feature significantly, and it's likely the bug won't be relevant then.
- We don't fully understand the problems the bug causes, nor how we can be sure those problems are solved if we fix it.
- The bug is in a very gnarly bit of code, and the only real solution is to rewrite the whole component.
At the moment, this bug is in category (6).
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Thanks, MJ, for doing what you do herein listed.
Thanks for bumping queries.
>>> + thanks to the other folks that help on the fora, as well.
+1
And thanks for backing me up when I got lost with my poor English!
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"Process-breaking gremlins" and "drastic crimp in my workflows" is a bit of hyperbolic melodrama for a wrong font error of this nature, don't you think?
After reading this, I counted to 10. I was still pissed, so I counted to 100. I was still and even more pissed.
The look of text is not considered to be a serious bug by Logos development evidently.
I read this again and counted to 1000 and then 10,000 (so to speak) and it only got worse, so I just left the pissy-sounding reply I was typing (because I was really pissed) incomplete, and that window is still open in my browser over a week later. Had no idea so many replies had been made to this thread until just now.
If nobody has reported it before, then they might never have noticed it.
Oh, but it has been...and you were there.
And even if it has been reported before, it's obviously not a showstopper.
[It's at this point where I revert to a portion of the comments I resisted posting before...]
{Oh, do many "shows" where you present Hebrew characters, Rosie? I do, and yeah, it kinda is a showstopper. Literally...the show isn't going on, because blocky sans serif Hebrew is simply not easy to read...not for me and not for my audiences. Just wondering...if your notes were all suddenly, out-of-the-blue, presenting in one of those 70s digital fonts or a circus font, would you be okay with that? Would you really feel accepting of FL's months and years-long inattention toward getting things back to normal and just silently think, well, I guess it's really "not a serious bug"? Doubt it.}
But again, is it just this one thing that I'm being overly dramatic about? No, and I've been complaining about it for some time. There's this whole thread. Notes are completely TRASHED. I mean that in the usual sense--they used to have order and a certain (occasionally illogical) dependability, but features that have long (like a decade long) been incorporated just vanished with 9's advent, leaving chaos in their place. As that last link shows, in the desktop app, simply copying the contents of a note and then repasting it below the note results in the complete loss of most formatting. Why???? How???? For a bit of panorama, I'll toss in this issue. But these are just the beginning of sorrows.
As seen below, Logos decided to multiply my notes all on its own. Each of the yellow highlights is a place where Logos doubled the note twice. There are THOUSANDS OF THESE, each of which I have to go through and delete individually. But get this--I ALREADY did that! I literally spent 6 months last year during COVID going from Genesis to Revelation deleting all of the doubled notes and otherwise cleaning them up. I'm talking at least 40 hours a week (probably closer to 80 most weeks) doing nothing but finally getting my thousands of notes straight and clean. Then, presto!, out of the ether thousands of the deleted gremlins just reappeared. But that's not all! As you can see (in green), Logos also decided (for what reason? and how?) to randomly jack up the font size of many of my Hebrew entries to 95 points rather than the 18 points I chose when creating the notes. And then, of course, there is the omnipresent issue that I addressed in the OP (in blue), where the font used in the note window is the exact opposite of what appears in the note pop-up. If I were to change the font in the input window to a sans serif font, that would cause the pop-up to switch to a serif font.
We're just getting started. In the pic below, notice how the presence of a marginal notation number in the text triggers the spelling check highlight. I use my notes for presentations and CANNOT have every single footnote littered with red graffiti. I was told by FL over a year ago that this behavior is indeed a bug and was told a "ticket" was being made to correct the problem...but as you can see, it persists.
Scrolling down just half-a-page in my NASB95, notice that all of the yellow highlighted notes below are part of a file (blue highlight) called Tohraah (2)...A FILE I NEVER CREATED. For some random and bizarre reason, when Logos decided to improvise and double (and triple) my notes, it created this doubled file as well. I have over half-a-dozen such doubled files. I know that there are people who are already prepared to tell me that all I have to do to remove the doubled and tripled notes is to delete this doubled file--but I can't do that. While each of the first two notes in the previous pic (look two above) that shows tripled notes is part of this Tohraah (2) file, if I deleted that file to remove those notes, then I would also erase each of the highlighted notes below, which are single, unique notes. Thus the necessity to edit each of the 20,000+ notes I have individually at a considerable and obscene expense of my time. Also, there are numerous cases of my notes having randomly added spaces (green highlights), which were not present when I originally created my notes. Just going through and fixing this one "innocuous" problem of added spaces would take me weeks of time and effort, even if it were the only issue...which obviously isn't the case.
[Slogging on...] Paging down in my Bible once brings me to this note below ("drew"), which again shows the issue addressed in the OP, where the yellow highlighted text is presented in opposite font styles in the input windows and pop-up windows. But unlike the pic we saw above, where the Hebrew text was boosted to the obnoxious 95 point font size, the text in this note is only 12 points like the text around it, EVEN THOUGH THE FONT SIZE BOX SAYS IT IS ACTUALLY 95 POINTS (sadly, I cut that portion of the pic). Notice the cursor under the pink box--the font box at top said this was 95 point text, which is obviously not the case. But here's the kick in the pants...as I said before, I ALWAYS set the Hebrew text in my notes at 18 points, so that I can see the vowel points clearly. So the yellow entry and the blue text beneath should all be 18 pts, but it appears as 12 pts (the size of the surrounding text) while the font size box insists they are all 95 pts. Ridiculous! And to top it all off, when I cleaned up my notes last year, I deleted all of the unnecessarily duplicated text in the orange box, but miracle or miracles!, here it is, risen from the digital grave.
Okay, so hold on to your hats, because this is going to be freaky as hell. See in the above pic the 4 yellow boxes in front of verse 10? I checked and two were duplicates but one was blank, so I deleted it (yellow highlight below). Then I clicked back on the dark gray note for "drew" and now feast your eyes upon the insane nonsense that magically transpired! Remember I said that the font box that I accidentally cut off the above pic was saying the Hebrew text was 95 pts even though it appeared to be 12 pts? Well, guess what...there's no mystery about the font size now! The text (in blue) is now in full agreement with the font size box (in green). This ridiculous bs is happening in real time!!! The note window above and note window below are the exact same note, and it changed its contents all by itself!! Simply deleting a completely unassociated note changed the visible size of the text in this note!
This is out of control. What I've shown here is just a drop in the bucket. Just to be clear, I picked a point in my Bible at random and found all of these example in just two chapters. NOTES ARE DRASTICALLY BROKEN AND THEY NEED TO BE FIXED YESTERDAY.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I'M 100% SERIOUS ABOUT THIS...FAITHLIFE NEEDS TO HIT THE KILLSWITCH ON ALL ITS ACTIVITIES AND RESOLVE THIS FUNDAMENTAL USER EXPERIENCE AND WORKFLOW ISSUE NOW.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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If nobody has reported it before, then they might never have noticed it.
Oh, but it has been...and you were there.
As one who has been known on occasion to go ballistic to make a point that has otherwise appeared to be missed, I can enjoy your rhetoric ... but your understanding of a conditional (perhaps even hypothetical) being countered as counterfactual ...
Seriously, I appreciate your inclusion of examples. They give me serious food for thought as they show problems I have not run into but are worth seeing if they are recreatable to determine how your usage differs from mine.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I'M 100% SERIOUS ABOUT THIS...FAITHLIFE NEEDS TO HIT THE KILLSWITCH ON ALL ITS ACTIVITIES AND RESOLVE THIS FUNDAMENTAL USER EXPERIENCE AND WORKFLOW ISSUE NOW.
If all caps is shouting, is this beyond the decibel level safe for human ears? Seriously, you are absolutely right iff (not a typo) the behavior is representative. However, while I know how I can make Logos duplicate notes, I have never had it happen spontaneously; I have never had it create a file spontaneously ... and I'm not certain I could trick it into it. The font problem can be replicated.
To sort out what happened would be a big hassle, but the place to start would be for you to provide the following information:
- on the duplicate highlights/notes do they share creation and last update information or do they differ?
- on the duplicate highlights/notes are they in the same or different notebooks (or no notebook?)
Provide screen shots providing this information and I can determine what the next step in debugging will be.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I know where to find the creation/update data in L3, but not in L9. Where is it located?
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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In default view for center column:
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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While I gather MJ's requested info, here's another massive headache-inducing issue. The pic below is from the desktop app. Note each of the yellow highlighted sections and specifically notice the color sequence of the notes.
Compare those color sequences to the same passage on my tablet app.
Notice how the color sequences are all different in the corresponding sections. THIS IS A PROBLEM...because when I created these notes, they were meant to be reviewed in order, often with second and third notes building on info presented in the first note. For years, this method worked with no problems--although getting them in the correct order did require some juggling (copying and pasting). Now, as you can see, that whole methodology is shot to hell. Not only is it obvious that the sequential order is discombobulated from one app format to the other, but I am no longer certain that I can rely on either one to present the proper sequence. The notes were almost all created in the desktop app, but I also have noticed in the recent and not so recent past that sometimes the order on desktop seems out of whack.
Also, note the green highlight in the top pic--the six notes there are all yellow, but if they were different colors, there is a significant likelihood that there would be a mixed-up order with them, as well.
Obviously, this is a major BUG.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I think it probably is useful to point out the each of the issues I'm drawing attention to is a feature that USED TO WORK in Logos, but doesn't any longer. That is my frustration. If these things were always this way, I would simply devise a system that worked in Accordance with the current state of brokenness. But my workflow is based on the old and once stable state of brokenness. I just want things to work as they did FOR OVER A DECADE.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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