Still Stace: My Gay Christian Coming-of-Age Story
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I just finished reading the book under discussion in this thread. I viewed every illustration in the book. I now know personally what this book represents and does not represent.
I am very disappointed by Faithlife’s decision to pull (ban) this book from the catalog. Purchasing and reading over three dozen recently banned books so far this year has actually proven to be a very positive and enlightening experience.
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RRD said:
I just finished reading the book under discussion in this thread. I viewed every illustration in the book. I now know personally what this book represents and does not represent.
I am very disappointed by Faithlife’s decision to pull (ban) this book from the catalog. Purchasing and reading over three dozen recently banned books so far this year has actually proven to be a very positive and enlightening experience.
So what is it really about? Review it if you don’t mind.
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RRD said:
I just finished reading the book under discussion in this thread.
Thank you, very much. Running on assumptions rather than information is a pet peeve of mine ... and often behind FL's pulling books.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It is her coming of age story and she feels it is ok to be gay and a Christian.
https://www.sheridancollege.ca/newsroom/articles/equity-inclusion/gay-still-christian-still-stace
https://staceychomiak.com/2022/01/23/marriage-reality-check-in/
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Mattillo said:
It is her coming of age story and she feels it is ok to be gay and a Christian.
Then I’m very glad FL withdrew it.
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Gary Osborne said:Mattillo said:
It is her coming of age story and she feels it is ok to be gay and a Christian.
Then I’m very glad FL withdrew it.
I'm also glad FL withdrew it. But am concerned about the serious lack of discernment that FL ever added it.
Would that same serious lack of discernment add a pornography magazine?
Which is worse? Promoting repulsive perversion or pornography? Promoting repulsive perversion is worse.
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DMB said:David Wanat said:
Has nothing to do with my point, which was your claims on Galileo are factually wrong.
You seem to be replying to me. If so, (from what I can see), sinner-punishment (stakes, prisons, etc) seem to appear across the board, irrespective of denomination. And good catch on Galileo.
The question I've never seen, is what prompts a death sentence in the religious world, and why. There was a time, when it was associated with demon-possession. Stephan had to be stoned to death. Not so Paul. The adulterous woman escaped.
I‘d imagine part of it is practitioners of religion are still members of the culture around them. So, they’d probably look at things legally from the perspective of those cultures. For example, the idea of burnings seem to have been originated in Germanic culture. As they spread during the fall of the Roman Empire, they probably wo have spread to Christian lands.
for what it’s worth.
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Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend. That may strike you as "unbelievable", even absurd, but it's a prophetic fact. Taking hard stances elicits hard judgments. We are not in the Land and we are not in a theocracy. Our call is to personal holiness, not to imposing cultural holiness. Attempting to win the world for ':Elohhiym is a sin, because it contradicts His purpose. Admitting freedom of speech is not an endorsement of other's speech freely spoken--it's a guard against having your own right to speak restricted or terminated. Deut. 30 depicts YHWH making individual CHOICE the manner in which He establishes His purposes. People are ALLOWED by YHWH to decide their own fates through obedience or disobedience. Attempts to limit the disobeidence of others through forced compliance, particularly outside the Land within Gentile culture, is to intentionally reject YHWH's path for personal manifestation of the Choice and is thus sin. This is classic mote and beam stuff. It is obviously contrary to the expectation of many, but there is an equivalent negative cost to the status of a person in YHWH's sight in direct proportion (or even a multiplicative proportion) to the effort in which they attempt to fight against sinners rather than focus on fighting their own battles against sin. In other words, apart from appropriate proclamations and actions advancing His will (which actually requires knowing His will), actions taken to fight against sinners makes you a sinner in proportion to the effort and energy expended. In other words, you can safely advocate for and speak truth WHILE manifesting it in action, but actions beyond that elicit judgment. Yeishuua` never commanded that His disciples correct the Pharisees or the Romans. He said judge not and judge righteously. Banning this book violates both.
He exclaimed His will--we are to do it and advocate the doing of it...that's it. You want to speak life and truth by explaining why this book is contrary to Biblical revelation? Have at it...IF you even know what Biblical revelation is, and prophecy says you don't. But "fighting against sin" by imposition of your will and perspective proves you don't understand His will, so best to keep your thoughts to yourself. Still, if you did understand His will, by all means promote it through word and integrity. However, the second you extend your hand to employ coersion (supposedly in His Name) is when the clock and the scale begin measuring out your sin against YHWH.
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RRD said:
I am very disappointed by Faithlife’s decision to pull (ban) this book from the catalog. Purchasing and reading over three dozen recently banned books so far this year has actually proven to be a very positive and enlightening experience.
Faithlife pulling the title sounds like cancel culture run amuck to me.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
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David Paul said:
Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend
I thought these were the kind of theological discussions that are to be avoided in the forums? As well as communicating in condescending tones!
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Oh, that's not a discussion...a discussion would take weeks or months just to lay out the relevant verses. And the condescension began when the book banning calls initiated.
What if I wanted to witness to those to whom the book was intended? The best way to demonstrate good faith is to address the specifics of the statements made in the book...but now that the book has been blotted out, that's now impossible (within the FL ecosystem).
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Question: How many children (the book's supposed target audience) do you suppose are browsing page after page of FL's website looking for life-altering reading material? The answer is almost certainly "none" or something credibly close to it. So this book's presence in the FL stable really only serves the function of providing the stepping stone to addressing the topic by those who (properly or improperly) wish to provide a corrective...along with whomever else may be here that supports the book's perspective, of which there are some. To reframe, this isn't remotely a case of selling drugs on a school street corner. It's a case of (assumed) adults discussing a topic that has drastic impacts on people's lives. Dismissing that responsibility out of hand is irresponsible.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Is Logos 10 with native M1 (and now M2) support coming out this fall?
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Tony Walker said:
Is Logos 10 with native M1 (and now M2) support coming out this fall?
Excellent question Tony. My guess is yes. But as a new-ish MBP'er, I'm not sure I'd want to update to it, until it's gone around the track a few times. I've no easy way to 'recover'. I remember when Apple came close to bricking the iPads ... and smiled on, with the assumption all the users were experts.
When they did Logos4 with Windows, there were some 'system' issues ... search the net for an exactly right file and hold your breath. But after that, I had (and still have) no problems on my Windows Logos.
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Greg said:
But am concerned about the serious lack of discernment that FL ever added it.
I'm not stepping in this one, but for the record: Much of FLEB is automated.
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JT (alabama24) said:Greg said:
But am concerned about the serious lack of discernment that FL ever added it.
I'm not stepping in this one, but for the record: Much of FLEB is automated.
Then let this be a lesson and a warning to FL to review the automation that would allow such a thing.
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JT (alabama24) said:Greg said:
But am concerned about the serious lack of discernment that FL ever added it.
I'm not stepping in this one, but for the record: Much of FLEB is automated.
That was my guess too.
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DMB said:Greg said:
Which is worse? Promoting repulsive perversion or pornography?
Not enitirely sure. What about a book demanding you hate your parents and all your siblings. Which is worse?
You mean the demand to love God more than your parents/siblings? The one that Jesus, God Almighty, gave as a prescription and warning against potentially allowing earthly love to come between a disciple and God? That one?
It was a weak attempt at moving the goalposts. But if you want to argue with Jesus go ahead.
The book in question was a potential addition to Logos that had zero business ever being offered. Period. The. End.
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Thank you Faithlife for deciding to remove this title. The title would be appropriate for a secular bookstore or e-reader platform. It has no place in a Bible Study program like an atheist has no place in a local Christian church pulpit.
We are called to righteous judgement, I believe this is one of them. Peace0 -
Gary Osborne said:
The. End.
Sorry, kiddo. First, 'Luke' was written well after 'Matthew' ... Holy Spirit there, you know. And my example was to illustrate your need to over-write the Text ... and not over-write other Text. Ergo some Christian denominations would approve the resource; others (yours) wouldn't.
Goal posts remain in place.
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DMB said:Gary Osborne said:
The. End.
Sorry, kiddo. First, 'Luke' was written well after 'Matthew' ... Holy Spirit there, you know. And my example was to illustrate your need to over-write the Text ... and not over-write other Text. Ergo some Christian denominations would approve the resource; others (yours) wouldn't.
Goal posts remain in place.
I have no idea what point you think you are making. But peace out. And to show you there are no hard feelings....
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FaithLife has a large and diverse customer base, so it's not surprising that there's disagreement between their users over what books they'd like to see FaithLife make available. But it's also not unreasonable for many customers, such as myself, to want FaithLife to curate their offerings. I'd be disconcerted to see a bookstore specializing in scientific works offering Erich von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods. Could you make some sort of case for it? Sure - but still, it would be a stretch. And I, personally, would find it very weird to find von Daniken on the same shelf as a serious scientific work.
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Greg said:
Which is worse? Promoting repulsive perversion or pornography? Promoting repulsive perversion is worse.
Greg, under what specific or general circumstances do you believe I have the right to expect Logos to refuse or remove a resource that YOU believe should be available through its software?
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EastTN said:
FaithLife has a large and diverse customer base, so it's not surprising that there's disagreement between their users over what books they'd like to see FaithLife make available. But it's also not unreasonable for many customers, such as myself, to want FaithLife to curate their offerings.
A curiosity related to the curation process: Should Logos allow resources that endorse and encourage women to serve as called/ordained preaching and teaching pastors in local churches? If so, how do you characterize/define the line between acceptable and unacceptable resources for the Logos software? How much of the Body of Christ must disapprove of a resource's content before Logos should refuse/remove it? How "objectionable" is too "objectionable"?
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Bob came on the forum a few years back and polled whether customers would want an expanded but uncurrated library or not. Those were the choices. A significant majority wanted the access. There is nothing about FL that makes it holy ground. It is not a refuge from the storm. It is a market and an exchange. People can buy a Bible and do unspeakable things with it; people can buy this particular book and use it to save lives. You don't know which will happen, but some want to impose their will just the same.
It's a bit ironic and hypocritical that so many folks find virtue signaling repugnant when engaged in by lefties and progressives, but they are well content to virtue signal to God by squelching the perceived transgressions of others. The irony is that He finds it just as repugnant. It is not your job to squash other people's sin for God...it is so much not your job that you will be judged a sinner for doing so. It may surprise a lot of people, but ':Elohhiym is not holding you responsible for the presence of sin in the world; He's holding you responsible for the presence of sin in your world.
So don't sin...tend your own gardens and stop spraying Round-Up on other people's weeds.
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Ken McGuire said:RRD said:
I am very disappointed by Faithlife’s decision to pull (ban) this book from the catalog. Purchasing and reading over three dozen recently banned books so far this year has actually proven to be a very positive and enlightening experience.
Faithlife pulling the title sounds like cancel culture run amuck to me.
Exactly. Some people only complain about cancel culture when what they like gets "canceled." But they're the quickest ones to cancel something/someone else. Sad to see Faithlife banning books just because a subset of noisy people don't like them. These are usually the same people who complain about "censorship" on the forums when they violate forum guidelines.
I would like to see more diverse perspectives represented in the store, not fewer. I can decide for myself what I want to purchase. I want others to have the freedom to do the same regardless of their perspective and how it differs from mine. I would also like to be able to study perspectives that differ from mine.
Meanwhile, this Oneness (modalist) study bible is allowed to remain in the store: https://www.logos.com/product/49646/apostolic-study-bible-notes. I'm not saying it should be pulled, it's just an example that Logos sells a ton of resources that would be considered heretical by many. Logos also stuffs its Pentecostal base packages full of tons of NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) resources (which many view as heretical), and that's fine. Selling a Modalist study bible is fine, but somehow selling a book that affirms a gay/trans person (which many Christians do) unacceptable.
Is Faithlife going to review all of the books on divorce and remarriage in the store (there are many) to make sure that none of them are accepting or affirming (or even remotely gracious) toward that practice (one that Jesus forbids except for infidelity)? This one appears to have a chapter on "loving again" after a divorce. And you might want to nix this one on step-families. But I'm sure you won't. I dislike the cherry-picking and the bowing to the outcry of a select noisy few.
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Isaiah 5:20
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Woe, indeed.
That said, there are some on the forum who along with FL seem to believe that if any such folks are encountered, it is their responsibility to "rub them out". Whoa!
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Kiyah said:
I would like to see more diverse perspectives represented in the store, not fewer. I can decide for myself what I want to purchase. I want others to have the freedom to do the same regardless of their perspective and how it differs from mine. I would also like to be able to study perspectives that differ from mine.
Amen to your post, Kiyah. Thank you for your clear and compelling presentation.
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skypeace said:
Thank you Faithlife for deciding to remove this title. The title would be appropriate for a secular bookstore or e-reader platform. It has no place in a Bible Study program like an atheist has no place in a local Christian church pulpit.
But was it "in a Bible Study program" or rather part of an e-reader platform? I'm pretty sure the answer is the latter, but who knows now that is has been expunged. I'm pretty sure that it was on the Faithlife Ebooks platform, which isn't part of Logos proper. In fact, to my irritation, there isn't a link on the Ebook site that even allows passage back to Logos land...you have to either Back out or start from scratch in a search engine. That said, your inaccurate analogy is pretty much apples to oranges.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
But was it "in a Bible Study program" or rather part of an e-reader platform? I'm pretty sure the answer is the latter, but who knows now that is has been expunged. I'm pretty sure that it was on the Faithlife Ebooks platform, which isn't part of Logos proper.
Yes, it was an ebook and not included in base packages. Someone would have had to decide to buy it. The phrase "Gay Christian" was in the title so if you didn't approve you would have known from the title not to buy it.
But some think it's their job to decide for everyone what we can/cannot buy from FL. I dislike that FL has affirmed them in that impulse.
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I imagine the issue over whether or not FL should do things like this boil down to the interpretation of Scripture. Either Scripture excludes ALL homosexual acts or SOME homosexual acts are not excluded by Scripture.
They’re irreconcilable views. They can’t both be true and one must be false (All acts are is contradicted by at least some acts are not. No acts are is contradicted by at least some acts are).
Keeping to the rules against theological and political brawls here (and I, like others, have strong views on it), the consequences of FL publishing this is guaranteed to be a lightning rod. Claims of ”cancel culture“ become just as much part of the “brawl” as those wanting to accuse FL of malice in autogenerating the FLEB.
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I can’t wait for Logos 10. Thanks for the reply. The software has been such a help to me since getting it in 2014.
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Kiyah said:
Is Faithlife going to review all of the books on divorce and remarriage in the store (there are many) to make sure that none of them are accepting or affirming (or even remotely gracious) toward that practice (one that Jesus forbids except for infidelity)? This one appears to have a chapter on "loving again" after a divorce. And you might want to nix this one on step-families. But I'm sure you won't. I dislike the cherry-picking and the bowing to the outcry of a select noisy few.
This book offends me and is thoroughly unbiblical, please remove: The Heart of Remarriage
This book purports to help remarried couples achieve "success in remarriage" and treats remarriage after divorce as if it's normal and okay, when the bible clearly condemns divorce and remarriage by the very mouth of Jesus in Matthew 19. The authors are supposedly attempting to help a remarried couple do remarriage "the right way" as if that were possible.
[quote]Description:
Too often, couples enter remarriage unaware of potential problems and unprepared for the challenges stepfamily life will bring. The Heart of Remarriage takes a unique approach to success in remarriage by going straight to the heart, helping couples heal from the inside out rather than offering surface suggestions that may change circumstances but not the lives of couples and their families.
Drs. Gary and Greg Smalley partner with remarried couple Dan and Marci Cretsinger to offer this marriage-changing idea: No matter what circumstances or challenges a remarried couple and their stepfamily face, the solution starts in their hearts. Remarried couples will learn how to examine their own hearts and heal them from the hurts of the past, so that they can be filled with God's love and let that love overflow to their family members. The Heart of Remarriage teaches readers how to create emotional security for every family member and offers practical ideas for connecting at the heart level with their spouse, children, and stepchildren. Couples will be encouraged to keep their hearts open and challenged to leave a family legacy of love.How can the authors call themselves Christians when they're encouraging people to disobey Jesus? I can't believe a Christian company like FL would sell and even promote (it's only $9) such obviously ungodly content. Books like this radically redefine the family and violate God's intent for marriage ("What God has joined together, let no one separate...whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery" Matt 19:6, 9) by normalizing divorce and remarriage. We as Christians must stand for truth, FL shouldn't sell any titles like this. Remove this title immediately!
Forgive the sarcasm.
(Quick, buy the book before FL pulls it.)
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Kiyah said:
This book offends me and is thoroughly unbiblical, please remove: The Heart of Remarriage
Gosh, I remember the days when 'divorce' was a hot sin. Right before that, the hot sin was 'adultery' (that was before King David). Then the hot sin moved on to improperly pregnant women, followed by ... well, what happens next. Then, there was the equality thing. Lady pastor thing. And now, with so many Christians turning gay... it's probably really tough work at the FL Purity Bureau. Let's see ... adultery, ok, divorce, ok, remarriage recommended!
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DMB said:
it's probably really tough work at the FL Purity Bureau. Let's see ... adultery, ok, divorce, ok, remarriage recommended!
lol.
I wonder if the FL Purity Bureau is hiring. I would definitely apply. They're gonna need a lot of help combing through the store to make sure they're consistently applying whatever policy caused the OP's offending title to be pulled. At least FL would end up with a much smaller store and a lot fewer resources to maintain, thus saving money in the long run.
What's even worse is that the Factbook actually recommended this title to me:
Just scandalous. FL should be ashamed of itself for promoting sin like this.
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DMB said:
Gosh, I remember the days when 'divorce' was a hot sin
And you could sue for alienation of affection - as one very controlling husband in the congregation I attended in high school did. Now most pastors would help her break free of the abusive husband although many would not recommend divorce.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Perhaps there should be an auto pop-up exclamer on the FLEB landing page that explains that it is not an exclusively Christian site and that some titles may not accord with the views of some visitors. Part of this pickle is that many people have misplaced expectations for what the ebook site is and what it offers.
That said, I fully disagree with the perspective and sentiment of the book in question. Faithlife should restore the book.
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David Paul said:
exclamer on the FLEB landing page that explains that it is not an exclusively Christian site
I think that a Christian company that is guided by Christian convictions and ethics, and offers it products and services accordingly, will serve their almost exclusively Christian customer base far better, than a company who yields to the degenerative moral relativism that is increasingly defining our culture and society.
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MWW said:David Paul said:
exclamer on the FLEB landing page that explains that it is not an exclusively Christian site
I think that a Christian company that is guided by Christian convictions and ethics, and offers it products and services accordingly, will serve their almost exclusively Christian customer base far better, than a company who yields to the degenerative moral relativism that is increasingly defining our culture and society.
Agreed. Less world in the church and more church in the world.
Jn 17:14-170 -
MWW said:
I think that a Christian company that is guided by Christian convictions and ethics, and offers it products and services accordingly, will serve their almost exclusively Christian customer base far better, than a company who yields to the degenerative moral relativism that is increasingly defining our culture and society.
Mattillo said:Agreed. Less world in the church and more church in the world.
Jn 17:14-17To either or both of you: I don't disagree with your sentiment, but I wonder how far it goes, for instance:
Many would argue that the Bible teaches that the first 11 chapters of Genesis are to be taken strictly literally (historical Adam and Eve, 6 days of creation, world wide flood, literal origin of languages), and any interpretation that goes against that view is yielding to modern scientific theories, particularly related to evolution.
Logos offers many books by authors who take other views that are non literal or other variations.
If given the choice, would you prefer that Logos not offer these resources? Is it yielding "to the degenerative moral relativism that is increasingly defining our culture and society?"
Again, I'm not saying that either of you are wrong, and I'm certainly not looking to start a debate on Gen 1-11, which would totally miss my point. I'm simply exploring how Faithlife would address such issues if a policy were to be written.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Mattillo said:MWW said:David Paul said:
exclamer on the FLEB landing page that explains that it is not an exclusively Christian site
I think that a Christian company that is guided by Christian convictions and ethics, and offers it products and services accordingly, will serve their almost exclusively Christian customer base far better, than a company who yields to the degenerative moral relativism that is increasingly defining our culture and society.
Agreed. Less world in the church and more church in the world.
Jn 17:14-17The problem with both of you is that neither of you comprehends that you could both be judged by YHWH for what you just said and be found wanting. Of course, you don't believe that, but that's the whole point. People who believe themselves to be believers can't comprehend the unbelievable. Prophecy requires that they do, though.
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Joseph Turner said:MWW said:
I think that a Christian company that is guided by Christian convictions and ethics, and offers it products and services accordingly, will serve their almost exclusively Christian customer base far better, than a company who yields to the degenerative moral relativism that is increasingly defining our culture and society.
Mattillo said:Agreed. Less world in the church and more church in the world.
Jn 17:14-17To either or both of you: I don't disagree with your sentiment, but I wonder how far it goes, for instance:
Many would argue that the Bible teaches that the first 11 chapters of Genesis are to be taken strictly literally (historical Adam and Eve, 6 days of creation, world wide flood, literal origin of languages), and any interpretation that goes against that view is yielding to modern scientific theories, particularly related to evolution.
Logos offers many books by authors who take other views that are non literal or other variations.
If given the choice, would you prefer that Logos not offer these resources? Is it yielding "to the degenerative moral relativism that is increasingly defining our culture and society?"
Again, I'm not saying that either of you are wrong, and I'm certainly not looking to start a debate on Gen 1-11, which would totally miss my point. I'm simply exploring how Faithlife would address such issues if a policy were to be written.
I think you'd need to find a better example. The issue of Gen 1-11 being literally vs allegory, while serious, is not a blatant NT moral sin. Homosexuality, embraced and practiced, is.
There's a huge difference between offering resources on biblical interpretation differences and offering resources promoting outright immorality.
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Gary Osborne said:
I think you'd need to find a better example. The issue of Gen 1-11 being literally vs allegory, while serious, is not a blatant NT moral sin. Homosexuality, embraced and practiced, is.
There's a huge difference between offering resources on biblical interpretation differences and offering resources promoting outright immorality.
Agreed
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MWW said:Gary Osborne said:
I think you'd need to find a better example. The issue of Gen 1-11 being literally vs allegory, while serious, is not a blatant NT moral sin. Homosexuality, embraced and practiced, is.
There's a huge difference between offering resources on biblical interpretation differences and offering resources promoting outright immorality.
Agreed
Wow, the goal posts HAVE moved! There was a time (my lifetime anyway) where that'd be grounds for firing. Now, we're up to 'discussable'! "4-views"! Christianity is moving along fast.
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Eccl. 7:16
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MWW said:Gary Osborne said:
I think you'd need to find a better example. The issue of Gen 1-11 being literally vs allegory, while serious, is not a blatant NT moral sin. Homosexuality, embraced and practiced, is.
There's a huge difference between offering resources on biblical interpretation differences and offering resources promoting outright immorality.
Agreed
No, you’ve both made my point. I was not attempting to present moral equivalency between the two, and if you were to ask answers in genesis, then they would say that denying the historicity of the original 11 chapters of Genesis goes against the Gospel. If you held that view, which you obviously don’t by your answer, then you might believe that the subversive questioning of scripture/gospel by science is much more dangerous than the overt nature of other sins.
You’ve both made a judgement that the two aren’t comparable, but others might. Do we listen to you or the others? That’s my point.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Joseph Turner said:
You’ve both made a judgement that the two aren’t comparable, but others might. Do we listen to you or the others? That’s my point.
I knew that's where you were going. For some, being queer is a sin against the body, while rejecting literalism is a sin against ':Elohhiym directly.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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