I am trying to figure out if R.c.c teaches that being born again is a process or something that is completed, then the person begins the process of what protestants call sanctification.
Thanks...
if R.c.c teaches that being born again is a process or something that is completed
This is a case where terminology will likely get us into trouble. One is reborn in baptism in which we become adopted children of God etc. However, that is only the beginning of a life time of growth (and backsliding). I'd speak of it in terms of theosis not sanctification - but that is partially from my more Eastern theological bent. Do these quotations from the CCC help?
460. The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature"(2Pet 1:4): "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God (Irenaeus)..."The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods" (Athanasius).
How does the following fit with your use of the term justification? (bold is mine)
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.
Do these quotations from the CCC help?
Martha
Thank you for that information. But what is that source?
I believe CCC stands for Catechism of the Catholic Church
That makes sense. Thanks.
and it would be fantastic if the CCC was available in Logos....
[Y]
it would be fantastic if the CCC was available in Logos
I agree. Until it is in Logos we can use any of three websites that have it. Sorry I gave just the abbreviation ... for some reason among us Catholics its a well known abbreviation.[;)]
PS. To set an example of conforming to the guidelines, I'm leaving this at just providing source material and information on how to find the source. Even if I didn't do a good job of identifying it.
Boy, that is a good question.
Your word "Protestant" gives me pause, as I am not certain about the variations on a theme which are possible.
Being Lutheran, justification means something which God does to us, without any help, whatsoever from us. Once that occurs, sanctification is something we do. Lifelong, we work on our sanctification, but are not done until we go to heaven. This is not to say that we get to heaven by good works, but that once we are saved, we can't HELP BUT DO good works, better referred to perhaps, as fruits of the spirit.
I could give you some of the Logos products, which would help with this, but they most often are for Lutheran products. On some items, Lutherans do not consider themselves as mainline Protestants, so I cannot speak to this particular item.
I would think however, that much of Catholic resources are close on this topic, to Lutheran.
A couple of resources I see, when searching Logos for justification (I have not read these )
http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/AWPJSTF
http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/STPLWESTCOTT
sanctification is something we do.
I know this is going a bit out on a limb, but being a Lutheran I am not sure I can agree here. I will be looking at this some more. Maybe, there is a bit of clarification I am missing. I will be talking to my Pastor as well. luvmath03 (at symbol here) yahoo (dot symbol here) com.
being a Lutheran I am not sure I can agree here.
Q. What is the LCMS view on sanctification? How does one become more sanctified? How does this compare to Calvinistic views and Wesleyian views (apart from the view of entire sanctification)? There seems to be plenty of info on the web about sanctification from Wesleyian traditions, but not much at all from confessional denominations--how come?
A. In its explanation of Luther's Small Catechism, the LCMS states the following concerning sanctification: "The Holy Spirit sanctifies me (makes me holy) by bringing me to faith in Christ, so that I might have the blessings of redemption and lead a godly life." The LCMS further explains that the term "sanctification" is used in two ways, in a more general sense to refer to "the whole work of the Holy Spirit by which He brings us to faith and also enables us to lead a godly life," and in a more restricted sense to refer to "that part of the Holy Spirit's work by which he directs and empowers the believer to lead a godly life" (see 1 Cor. 6:11).
Though not all Christians in the Calvinist tradition may have identical views regarding sanctification, "Churches in America" (published by Concordia Publishing House) states: Calvinists view the Law as necessary in securing justification. To secure is to establish, to make sure one's status. The Law-keeping of sanctification is the basis on which the justified person receives benefits from the relationship he or she has with God. Calvinists say that 'holiness, or conformity to the divine law, is the indispensable condition for securing favor, attaining peace of conscience, and enjoying fellowship with God'" (Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology).
As your question rightly intimates, some Christians, believe in "total sanctification." The LCMS position is that since human beings still possess the Old Adam (which clings to them until death; Rom. 7:14-24), it is not possible for a person to become perfect in this life. Christians are both "saint and sinner" at the same time, which means sanctification is not complete in this life. As St. Paul himself said concerning his own "progress" in his faith-life, "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me" (Phil.3:12).
from http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2136
=============================================================================================
3. The Common Understanding of Justification
14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]
16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.
17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God's saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.
18.Therefore the doctrine of justification, which takes up this message and explicates it, is more than just one part of Christian doctrine. It stands in an essential relation to all truths of faith, which are to be seen as internally related to each other. It is an indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ. When Lutherans emphasize the unique significance of this criterion, they do not deny the interrelation and significance of all truths of faith. When Catholics see themselves as bound by several criteria, they do not deny the special function of the message of justification. Lutherans and Catholics share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who alone is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator (1 Tim 2:5f) through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing gifts. [cf. Sources for section 3].
....
For 4.3:Justification by Faith and through Grace (paras.25-27) (USA, nos. 105ff; LV:E 49-53; VELKD 87-90)
- "If we translate from one language to another, then Protestant talk about justification through faith corresponds to Catholic talk about justification through grace; and on the other hand, Protestant doctrine understands substantially under the one word 'faith' what Catholic doctrine (following 1 Cor. 13:13) sums up in the triad of 'faith, hope, and love'" (LV:E 52).
- "We emphasize that faith in the sense of the first commandment always means love to God and hope in him and is expressed in the love to the neighbour" (VELKD 89,8-11).
- "Catholics ..teach as do Lutherans, that nothing prior to the free gift of faith merits justification and that all of God's saving gifts come through Christ alone" (USA, no. 105).
- "The Reformers ..understood faith as the forgiveness and fellowship with Christ effected by the word of promise itself .. This is the ground for the new being, through which the flesh is dead to sin and the new man or woman in Christ has life (sola fide per Christum). But even if this faith necessarily makes the human being new, the Christian builds his confidence, not on his own new life, but solely on God's gracious promise. Acceptance in Christ is sufficient, if 'faith' is understood as 'trust in the promise' (fides promissionis)" (LV:E 50).
- Cf. The Council of Trent, Session 6, Chap. 7: "Consequently, in the process of justification, together with the forgiveness of sins a person receives, through Jesus Christ into whom he is grafted, all these infused at the same time: faith, hope and charity" (DH 1530).
- "According to Protestant interpretation, the faith that clings unconditionally to God's promise in Word and Sacrament is sufficient for righteousness before God, so that the renewal of the human being, without which there can be no faith, does not in itself make any contribution to justification" (LV:E 52).
- "As Lutherans we maintain the distinction between justification and sanctification, of faith and works, which however implies no separation" (VELKD 89,6-8).
- "Catholic doctrine knows itself to be at one with the Protestant concern in emphasizing that the renewal of the human being does not 'contribute' to justification, and is certainly not a contribution to which he could make any appeal before God. Nevertheless it feels compelled to stress the renewal of the human being through justifying grace, for the sake of acknowledging God's newly creating power; although this renewal in faith, hope, and love is certainly nothing but a response to God's unfathomable grace" (LV:E 52f).
- "Insofar as the Catholic doctrine stresses that grace is personal and linked with the Word, that renewal ..is certainly nothing but a response effected by God's word itself, and that the renewal of the human being does not contribute to justification, and is certainly not a contribution to which a person could make any appeal before God, our objection ..no longer applies" (VELKD 89,12-21).
from JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church available at http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
The Holy Spirit sanctifies me
O.K. here it is.....I will agree here. The Spirit sanctifies me not "something that we do." I am a different Lutheran from the Lutheran's that entered into this agreement. I have not read it closely.
Let's be careful here, things are being said that are opinion, personal belief, and that others disagree with. Please respect the forum guidelines:
Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc.
Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.
Let's be careful here, things are being said that are opinion, personal belief, and that others disagree with. Please respect the forum guidelines: Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc. Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.
I agree, but I must say it was nice to read a thread that delved into these issues with such a pleasant tone. Thanks to all who participated for keeping the comments informative and respectful. Thanks also to those who read and commented on other's comments for doing so with grace and understanding.
I put links to some of the relevant church documents on the topics.wiki under justification. They should start showing up on some searches.
Dominick, I tried to keep 'within' the guidelines by doing nothing other than quoting resources to explore - resources that I think should be in Logos. But I was skating on very thin ice - a least a micro thick [;)] So, yes, mea culpa ... You were right to call me on it.
William, the quote that the forum software attributed to me is actually from from http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2136.
Disclaimer; There are many fine catholic Christians who love God and serve Him with all the light and truth that they have; so this essay does not address them; but an institution.
There is simply no harmony between the CCC and the Holy Bible when speaking of an institution and not individuals; and the papacy is in Bible prophecy in many different places. Even Martin Luther from the Great Reformation taught that the little horn power from Daniel 7:25: "he shall think to change times and laws" is a direct prophecy that the papacy would attempt to change God's Holy Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st day-for which there is no Scriptural authority. "Times" meaning the Sabbath change; and "laws"also meaning their removal of the second commandment which says " You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exo 20:4,5 AKJV).It is well known that the statues and images in the papal realm come from pagan deities and were renamed Peter, Paul, Mary, and others. In addition, Mary is not a co-redemtrix but remains dead in the ground until Jesus comes in the clouds to raise the saints in the grave and translate the living ones.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he said himself, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit you on my right hand,
The Attempted Change to the 1st day of the Week from the 7th:
CONSTANTINE'S SUNDAY LAW, ISSUED A.D. 321, WAS AS FOLLOWS:
"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the sun; but let those who are situated in the country, freely and at full liberty attend to the business of agriculture; because it often happens that no other day is so fit for sowing corn and planting vines; lest, the critical moment being let slip, men should lose the commodities granted by heaven." {GC88 679.2}
From the beginning of the presumed change, papal authorities inserted the Sunday into an increasingly prominent role while at the same time downplaying the real Sabbath. This happened over the course of a few hundred years until more modern times before 1844; when the Advent prophetic movement began to call the saints of God back to the true worship of the Creator who made the heavens, earth, seas, and fountains of waters.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the middle of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
True loyalty to God is found only in the worship of Him in Spirit and truth; the 7th Day Sabbath being the sign and seal of the living God:
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shall you labor, and do all your work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: why the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The 4th commandment contains the seal of God which is similar to the seal of the president of the US, or any ancient dictator or king; having name, title, and territory. " The LORD your God" being His name and title, and "the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them" which is His territory.
Eze 20:20 And hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.
Those who keep Sunday are but following the dictates of the papacy:
Mark of authority
“Sunday is our mark of authority.…The church is above the Bible, and this transference of sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” The Catholic Record, London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.
V I C A R I V S F I L I I D E I
5 1 100 - - 1 5 - - 1 50 1 1 500 - 1= 666
“Vicarius Filii Dei was used twice by Pope Paul VI indocuments found on the Vatican's web site. These are Apostolic Constitutions,which are the highest form of official Papal decree in the Roman CatholicChurch and are issued with binding legal authority. Historically these decreeswere known as papal bulls, the name referring to the lead metal seal (bulla)attached to authenticate the document. As a general rule, the superscription thatopens papal bulls typically reads (http://biblelight.net/666.htm#OFFICIAL)
So in the near future it will come down to a choice: either the 7th day or the 1st day serving either God or the beast power.
WOW, I edited that big block of text twice the 2nd time even creating more space between sections. I have never seen formatting this bad in any forum before.
[:|] While cut and paste is fun, your post clearly violates the forum guidelines... as much as I would like to comment I shall refrain...
Disclaimer; There are many fine catholic Christians
Stephen, the original poster requested resources on the Catholic view of rebirth and sanctification. Because the primary resource was not yet available in Logos, I gave him relevant quotations and the web link. I went a bit further when a Lutheran indicated that he was going to check with his pastor and provided quotations and web links to additional sources. I apologize if you interpreted this as an invitation to discuss theology which is outside the forum guidelines. Unfortunately, the result is you have made a post that you may wish to edit again since it is off-topic and a breach of the guidelines.
And here we go again....
true although I think the frequency is down.
Your attempt to create a theological debate {or correct Catholic doctrine} is clearly outside the forum guidelines and unacceptable. Martha was merely answering questions posted by others, not inviting criticism.
Can we just get this thread locked/closed? The original question(s) have been answered and this thread staying open just invites people who don't read the thread or the forum rules, to violate forum rules in an inappropriate manner.
Agreed. A very good suggestion.
Hi Morris,
Please do comment, I replied to a theological post. There was only cut and paste on my quotes.
God Bless! Steve
Mr. Smith,
it sure looks like you were posting theological items to me. You'r CCC post stated humans were God's or rather"divine;" what utter garbage. [:O] I would say first remove your post!
Besides, that is my first love; theology. So I guess I will need to check the guidelines or let a moderator remove the post. So then what sort of mundane things are discussed here? [^o)]
So then what sort of mundane things are discussed here?
Logos Bible Software and how to use it. We often discuss which books/resources are useful to find certain information, but we avoid debating the content of those resources, for obvious reasons. The conversation should stay focused on using Logos and the tools of Bible study.
Your post is riddled with theological statements. Yet you seem to say you are within the guidelines and perhaps I misinterpreted this? Perish the thought! You said:
"460. The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature"(2Pet 1:4): "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God (Irenaeus)..."The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods" (Athanasius)"
"Saint Athanasius, theologian, ecclesiastical statesman, and Egyptian national leader, was the chief defender of Christian orthodoxy in the 4th-century battle against Arianism, the heresy that the Son of God was a creature of like, but not of the same, substance as God the Father. Athanasius attended the Council of Nicaea (325) and shortly thereafter became bishop of Alexandria (328). For the rest of his life he was engaged in theological and political struggles with the Emperor and with Arian churchmen, being banished from Alexandria several times. He wrote many important works, including his major theological treatises, The Life of St. Antony and Four Orations against the Arians, and a number of letters on theological, pastoral, and administrative topics. A Catholic Encyclopedia article is online at St. Athanasius." (Web. Retrieved from:( http://www.ntcanon.org/Athanasius.shtml)
The Bible is the only rule of faith and practice that should be used.among those who claim Christ.. All catholic theology is diametrically opposed to Scripture. including the above bolded statement by Athanasius, which also smacks of Mormonism who twists this text:
Psalms 82:6 "I have said, You are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
The word for gods here is Eloheem; which can carry the meaning of judges and magistrates as in humans; which it does here.
H430 אלה 'ĕlôhı̂ym el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
The context simply says that God will judge among the human rulers and they will die.
Psa 82:1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty; he judges among the gods.
Psa 82:2 How long will you judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psa 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
Psa 82:6 I have said, You are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
No human will ever be a god but only by way of jesus Christ can have immortality.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written to you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.
The evidence shows that you ignited something here with me which said humans will be gods.It is your that is highly inflammatory not mine which is Bible truth only. I suggest that you remove yours first.
Well here is the Bible view of Sanctification; the process of addition:
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jack,
I disagree. "martha" made a strong inflammatory theological post.
Thanks Todd, I'm obviously in the wrong place. Logos is used by my partner on our website where I write articles but I have no use for it as yet unless they incorporate the AKJV. I use E-sword prolifically..
Stephen, please desist. Martha was answering a direct question about what Catholics believe. She was not engaging in debate. Perhaps she should have posted a link instead, but that doesn't make it right to continue posting further debate.
This is Logos' forum for the support of their products. They do not provide it as a free soapbox.
EDIT: I see we were posting at the same time. Hoping all is clear now. Blessings.
Stephen,
Martha answered the OP's question.
I am trying to figure out if R.c.c teaches that being born again is a process or something that is completed, then the person begins the process of what protestants call sanctification. Thanks...
You have been reminded already of what the guidelines are here, and you've indicated after Todd Philip's response that you understand them.
My only authority here is to remind you once again.
#2 Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.. --Forum Guidelines
Please do not continue the debate.
To continue to fan flames which are meant to be extinguished is wanton and flagrant disregard for the rules of the forum owners.
EDIT: sorry, Todd beat me to the post.
SECOND EDIT: ARRGGHH I see by Todd's edit and Stephen's comment that my timing is so far off it's ridiculous. Sorry again to Stephen and Todd.
Grace to you.
And here we go again.... No. No we don't.
No. No we don't.
hmmmm.... This is why for not a moment I don't regret handing in my MVP star
I appreciate you and wish you all the best. [y]
I disagree. "martha" made a strong inflammatory theological post. Stephen, please desist.
Stephen, please desist.
Yes, please.
Jerry
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