More books that Logos shouldn't reprint...
Comments
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I also don't think experts would have a difficult time separating the wheat from the chaff in Thayer.
Hi Everyone.
I'm new to Logos, to Forums (presently set on reading everything posted to learn how to use this program) and relatively new to studying God's word more deeply (4 yrs now).
In the process of my reading the forums, I came upon Gary's point, and I think it's valid. When I was trying to learn about layouts and set one up for me to study God's word, it struck me that I have this Library of 600+ commentaries, dictionaries, and on and on, and I HAVE NO IDEA who the people are that wrote them, when they were wrote, and on and on. Oh, I could spend a gazillion hours finding out that info, but that's a gazillion hours that I'm NOT in God's word, which is the reason why I bought Logos... or so I thought. (Seems I'm reading forums, instructions and watching videos...)
Anyway. Gary's point is valid for me because I am NOT an expert. I didn't go to college. I'm a housewife. I'm not brilliant. I"m not stupid. Just average. Just reading your posts makes my head swim. It feels like intellectual....contests to me.
So, here's my 2 cents. Braniacs are NOT the only ones using Logos, and I, for one, could certainly end up buying this book based on the description that Gary quoted. As for "turn of the century" I would be thinking, what century?
I have spent 100+ hours trying to learn Logos. 10 extra sentences in an e-book description clearly stating, who, what, when, where and why would be a wonderful thing for someone like me.
So, thanks Gary. You saved me some moola and time and confusion.
As for "product guides" Michael. I clicked on your link and found another 20 years worth of reading.
Gloria
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I also don't think experts would have a difficult time separating the wheat from the chaff in Thayer.
Hi Everyone.
I'm new to Logos, to Forums (presently set on reading everything posted to learn how to use this program) and relatively new to studying God's word more deeply (4 yrs now).
In the process of my reading the forums, I came upon Gary's point, and I think it's valid. When I was trying to learn about layouts and set one up for me to study God's word, it struck me that I have this Library of 600+ commentaries, dictionaries, and on and on, and I HAVE NO IDEA who the people are that wrote them, when they were wrote, and on and on. Oh, I could spend a gazillion hours finding out that info, but that's a gazillion hours that I'm NOT in God's word, which is the reason why I bought Logos... or so I thought. (Seems I'm reading forums, instructions and watching videos...)
Anyway. Gary's point is valid for me because I am NOT an expert. I didn't go to college. I'm a housewife. I'm not brilliant. I"m not stupid. Just average. Just reading your posts makes my head swim. It feels like intellectual....contests to me.
So, here's my 2 cents. Braniacs are NOT the only ones using Logos, and I, for one, could certainly end up buying this book based on the description that Gary quoted. As for "turn of the century" I would be thinking, what century?
I have spent 100+ hours trying to learn Logos. 10 extra sentences in an e-book description clearly stating, who, what, when, where and why would be a wonderful thing for someone like me.
So, thanks Gary. You saved me some moola and time and confusion.
As for "product guides" Michael. I clicked on your link and found another 20 years worth of reading.
Gloria
It never hurts to do a global search of your library for an author's name. You may find a quick nugget of truth about them, like when they lived, or particular views that the hold.
This would be where user comments about a book could come in handy. One of the reasons I go most to Amazon is to read the user reviews. It would be great to have this kind of information available when purusing Logos.com. It would be even better if pulling up a resources information window had the user reviews at the bottom!
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I also don't think experts would have a difficult time separating the wheat from the chaff in Thayer.
Hi Everyone.
I'm new to Logos, to Forums (presently set on reading everything posted to learn how to use this program) and relatively new to studying God's word more deeply (4 yrs now).
In the process of my reading the forums, I came upon Gary's point, and I think it's valid. When I was trying to learn about layouts and set one up for me to study God's word, it struck me that I have this Library of 600+ commentaries, dictionaries, and on and on, and I HAVE NO IDEA who the people are that wrote them, when they were wrote, and on and on. Oh, I could spend a gazillion hours finding out that info, but that's a gazillion hours that I'm NOT in God's word, which is the reason why I bought Logos... or so I thought. (Seems I'm reading forums, instructions and watching videos...)
Anyway. Gary's point is valid for me because I am NOT an expert. I didn't go to college. I'm a housewife. I'm not brilliant. I"m not stupid. Just average. Just reading your posts makes my head swim. It feels like intellectual....contests to me.
So, here's my 2 cents. Braniacs are NOT the only ones using Logos, and I, for one, could certainly end up buying this book based on the description that Gary quoted. As for "turn of the century" I would be thinking, what century?
I have spent 100+ hours trying to learn Logos. 10 extra sentences in an e-book description clearly stating, who, what, when, where and why would be a wonderful thing for someone like me.
So, thanks Gary. You saved me some moola and time and confusion.
As for "product guides" Michael. I clicked on your link and found another 20 years worth of reading.
Gloria
It never hurts to do a global search of your library for an author's name. You may find a quick nugget of truth about them, like when they lived, or particular views that the hold.
This would be where user comments about a book could come in handy. One of the reasons I go most to Amazon is to read the user reviews. It would be great to have this kind of information available when purusing Logos.com. It would be even better if pulling up a resources information window had the user reviews at the bottom!
You did NOT just tell me to do a global search of my library, did you? LOL. I'm dying laughing here. Let me see...hmmmm. Learning how to do a global search by an author's name (author's that I don't even know about) probably would require me to spend another 100+hours reading and watching videos just to learn how to do said search. Too funny.
All kidding aside though, I can see that doing and outside search of offered texts would be very beneficial. So, thanks for the laugh and the heads up.
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One of the Amazon.com reviewers identified himself as a "Byzantinist" and said he found some help in Sophocles. This rings true with me...nevertheless, 98+% of Logos users are going to be working in biblical exegesis, not Byzantine Greek, and I see very little help in Sophocles for them. I say this as a casual observation, since he has, what, 1300 pages, and I only flipped through it.
Very true. And that is why there is nothing about using his lexicon for studying the New Testament on the product page. This fact is also reflected on the Greek tools product guide I referred to earlier.
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You did NOT just tell me to do a global search of my library, did you? LOL. I'm dying laughing here. Let me see...hmmmm. Learning how to do a global search by an author's name (author's that I don't even know about) probably would require me to spend another 100+hours reading and watching videos just to learn how to do said search. Too funny.
:-) I"m sure you'll get a bigger kick out of this, but it's actually not too difficult. It would be well worth knowing how to do a global search of your library.
1. Click the magnifying glass.
2. click "Basic" in the upper right of the pane.
3. make sure the string above the "Find" box says "Search all text in entire library for".
a. if it says something other then "All text" click whatever it says in its place and then click "clear" to the right of the "find" box.
b. if it says something other then "entire library" click whatever it says in its place and then select "entire Library" from the list.
4. type the authors name in the find box. I would start out with just his last name if its an uncommon last name and see how many hits you get. If it's too many try firstname lastname.
5. This is really cool with a verse. instead of putting the authors name in the find box just type a scripture passage. It will find anywhere that verse is referenced in your entire library.
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It seems to me that it should also be fair to suggest that LOGOS remove a book - either from its library (publishers have done this from time to time, why not users), pre-pub, or the community pricing program.
I'd have some real problems with this although occasionally inflammatory, slanderous material might be removed to the "back room".
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I'm new to Logos, to Forums (presently set on reading everything posted to learn how to use this program) and relatively new to studying God's word more deeply (4 yrs now).
Dear Gloria, if you have spent 4 years studying the Word, and bought Logos to help you...well, you're my hero for today. When I came to the Lord years ago, someone said, "you ought to read the Bible", so I bought one, read it, read it again...and here we are.
Now we do it by computer, but the goal is the same: "what saith the Lord?"There are a lot of tools on Logos that are for the non-expert. I use the New Bible Dictionary often - in English and in Spanish -, since it gives nice brief definitions. You might find help in it. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is bigger and pricier. The New Bible Commentary is good. Likewise, Elwell, Topical Analysis of the Bible is very useful, well worth a purchase. You might enjoy the Compare Bible function, which I also use frequently.
Let me underscore as strongly as I can, that when the brethren are in a debate over some detail [:O] - the relative value of some Greek lexicon, in this case - we do so because we have our eyes on a long-term goal: how do we get the message of God's Word to people, as accurately as possible, and with the greatest possibility that they will grow in the Lord because they are rooted in the truth. I'm pretty sure I represent the sentiments of the others on this posting. So if we sound like we're getting worked up over a trivial point, it's because we want to understand the Word, as God wants us to understand it.
And I'll close, since I already said I wouldn't do any more preaching (!). Many blessings, Gary
PS - you probably don't want to share your email on this forum, but if you like, go to my blog at www.justinofnablus.wordpress.com, and respond to some posting or another...tell me what books you use, and I'll write you back, and suggest some other titles.
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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1. It's not the expert who is depending on Thayer. The reality is that many with little or no facility in Greek link into it via the Strong's numbering system, and quote it as authoritative.
2. Yes, an expert would have trouble separating the wheat from the chaff. I'm no expert, but I can do research in the field, and I had a huge amount of trouble analyzing just one article in Thayer, on agape. See my essay in www.justinofnablus.wordpress.com, search under "Thayer"
1. You can't hold everyone's hand and tell them exactly what books to buy and what not to buy. If someone is crazy enough to but a lexicon that is over 100 years and and put a ton of stock in it, it is their fault. If they don't know about a particular lexicon and don't talk to anyone about it, they will be bamboozled by anything that comes their way. As with anything you buy, ask around. Do the same with Logos. Talk to a Logos salesman or customer service representative. I'm sure they would be of great benefit.
2. How do you know that experts can find what is reputable in it? Yes you might not be able to, but my points stands: you aren't an expert (and neither am I FYI)! The definition of an expert is that they could probably figure Thayer out.
Gloria I would recommend a couple of books that will help you find some material for studying the Bible that is reputable.
- John Glynn's Commentary and Reference Survey is a great place to start.
Unfortunately Logos doens't have it, but Google Books and Amazon do. http://books.google.com/books?id=bqC7_7wk1mMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=john+glynn&hl=en&ei=6iZjTLDwLsaAlAeht8HfCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false- DA. Carson's Commentary Survey which Logos has is great. http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/NTCOMMSURV
- Fee and Stewart's How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth also has a bibliography which lists solid resources. http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/H2RBBLWORTH
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How do you know that experts can find what is reputable in it? Yes you might not be able to, but my points stands: you aren't an expert (and neither am I FYI)! The definition of an expert is that they could probably figure Thayer out.
Well...I won't get into a dialogue about who is an expert. Read my essay on Thayer and decide for yourself whether I figured Thayer out...
BTW, the works you mentioned by Fee and Stuart, Carson, Glynn...are doing precisely what you object to, telling people what to buy and not to buy, right? [;)] And from what I can gather, none of them is too keen on Thayer...!
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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One of the Amazon.com reviewers identified himself as a "Byzantinist" and said he found some help in Sophocles. This rings true with me...nevertheless, 98+% of Logos users are going to be working in biblical exegesis, not Byzantine Greek, and I see very little help in Sophocles for them. I say this as a casual observation, since he has, what, 1300 pages, and I only flipped through it.
Very true. And that is why there is nothing about using his lexicon for studying the New Testament on the product page. This fact is also reflected on the Greek tools product guide I referred to earlier.
Yeah, very good, point taken.
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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Thanks for the article, Gary. Really enjoyed and appreciated it! *smile* Peace and Joy to you in the Lord!Hi Jeremy, thanks for the response.
Would experts have difficulty separating the wheat from the chaff in Thayer?
1. It's not the expert who is depending on Thayer. The reality is that many with little or no facility in Greek link into it via the Strong's numbering system, and quote it as authoritative.
2. Yes, an expert would have trouble separating the wheat from the chaff. I'm no expert, but I can do research in the field, and I had a huge amount of trouble analyzing just one article in Thayer, on agape. See my essay in www.justinofnablus.wordpress.com, search under "Thayer"
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Its not about ethics and advertising. You're simply confusing old with obsolete. Those are extremely different. If I may quote Frederick Danker -- a recent name that everyone should know.
"The historical discussions are not designed to satisfy mere antiquarian curiosity. To ignore the contributions of those who have gone before is base ingratitude. Sad to say, arrogance is no stranger to our craft, and to imbue students with incivility promotes demeaning of our enterprise. The truth is that the future will declare us all myopic. To understand the lineage of a book is to appreciate better its character and function."
Frederick W. Danker, Multipurpose Tools for Bible Study (Rev. and expanded ed.; Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1993), xi; my emphasis.I would go as far as to say that many of the dead grammarians and Greek scholars knew Greek better than Mounce or Wallace or Porter combined!
Danker continues with reference to Hasting's four volume Dictionary of the Bible:
"A less technical production designed also for the nonspecialist was undertaken by James Hastings, with the assistance of John Alexander Selbie, Andrew Bruce Davidson, Samuel Rolles Driver, and Henry Barclay Swete. The title, A Dictionary of the Bible, Dealing with Its Language, Literature, and Contents, Including the Biblical Theology, 4 vols. (New York: Charles Scribner’s, 1898–1902; extra vol., 1904), abbreviated HDB, indicates the broad scope of this work. Beware of the hazard of “lust for the latest.” Older works of this quality are not to be ignored. Jewish scholars like Wilhelm Bacher made signal contributions to this set, and Sir William Ramsay, who helped ancient Asia Minor come alive for New Testament students, contributed numerous articles of considerable durability to all of the volumes in this set."
Frederick W. Danker, Multipurpose Tools for Bible Study (Rev. and expanded ed.; Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1993), 150.Yes, there are historical developments. Hastings doesn't have an entry on the Dead Sea Scrolls and they don't know where Capernum is. But if you look in Anchor Bible Dictionary, you'll find an entry for Q, a document nobody has every seen with no actual historical evidence of its existence.
Just as importantly, I must point out the very great need for Sophocles:
There is no Ancient Greek lexicon in existence (yet -- two are in production, though neither are Greek-English) that as thoroughly covers the time period dealt with by Sophocles' lexicon. Neither LSJ nor Lampe comes even close. Unless you know Spanish incredibly well, you would need Sophocles to do good work in the church fathers. According to your blog, Gary, you know Spanish quite well, but being that DGE probably won't be completed in our life time, both of us still need Sophocles to work in the church fathers.
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Hi Lynden, Well, it's a question of economics and sales rather than objective worth. They are cheap, and they are advertised as the best...no wonder they're scooped up.
PD books like these are only cheap if reliable and accurate text files exist. That's not the case in either of these -- which means typing thousands of pages by hand. Logos wants to make these available because they're worth something. As a Greek scholar myself, I'm disappointed that they're not being scooped up as quickly as I would like. Most are below 50%, tragically...
In fact most of the PD books that we do are chosen because some one at Logos who has an academic specialty in a given field has suggested them as worth while at some point. There's a significant amount of biblical and theological education at Logos and many of us view many of thew PD works as highly valuable.
I wrote the description for the Sophocles. He's a scholar I've hoped to see in Logos for years now and to have the opportunity to write his pre-pub page only a couple months after beginning to work at Logos Bible Software was an honor and incredibly exciting.
Incidentally, T. D. Woolsey was a fantastic Greek scholar. Personally, I would love to see more old Greek scholars -- especially Gildersleeve & Jelf's respective grammars, but also the entire selected bibliography in A. T. Robertson's big grammar.
Peace to you, Michael! And Joy! *smile*I was a student of Fred Danker for several classes back in the 50's and 60's. I appreciate you remarks, and I appreciate your reference to Multipurpose Tool, a book he was working on when I was a student.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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It seems to me that it should also be fair to suggest that LOGOS remove a book
[6] Let me play devil's advocate here:
1) The Calvinists are requesting all Arminian works be purged.
2) The Arminians are likewise requesting the Calvinist works be removed.
3) The Catholics would agree to the two previous requests.
4) The (non-Messianic) Orthodox Jews don't have much use for the Catholic resources.
When you get done accomodating all the would-be censors, all you are left with is the Bible -- which is not that bad of a book to read.Oh, wait a minute. Here comes Bart Ehrman.
What?! Bart is demanding we throw out the Bible too!So much for censorship à la fahrenheit 451. I would rather have everything in Logos and let users decide what is worth their time and money. If a user is lost, let them ask their pastor or friend for recommendations. You never know what people want until you ask them. I'm in for Bishop James Ussher's works in Community Pricing for $100. http://www.logos.com/communitypricing/details/6832 (The graph doesn't even go that high anymore!)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew I want it all. I just cannot afford it all. [:'(]
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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When you get done accomodating all the would-be censors, all you are left with is the Bible -- which is not that bad of a book to read.
Looks like only the Baptists would be happy then [:D]
I guess if we went on the status of no older works because they're "out dated," then we would have to throw out the Bible too. The Apostle Paul's works must not be up to date and accurate enough on Christology as compared to today's expert critical scholars, after all they have "more information" today.
Jason Saling
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I guess if we went on the status of no older works because they're "out dated," then we would have to throw out the Bible too. The Apostle Paul's works must not be up to date and accurate enough on Christology as compared to today's expert critical scholars, after all they have "more information" today.
Oh, please! Is that sincerely what you think we're talking about?
What we're talking about is a lexicon like Thayer's which obscures Paul's meaning due to introducing ideas which Paul never had, as opposed to better tools which offer better data and thus help us to understand the apostles better.
Also, please note my comments earlier, where I spoke of the value of the Fathers, Second Temple literature, Aquinas, Calvin, Spurgeon, etc., etc.
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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BTW, the works you mentioned by Fee and Stuart, Carson, Glynn...are doing precisely what you object to, telling people what to buy and not to buy, right?
Getting guidance from others is nice. Having others censor (by removing the availability) is not so nice (like Floyd was joking about... It was a joke, wasn't it Floyd?)
http://www.bestcommentaries.com/ has ratings based on concensus.
I purchased Word Biblical Commentary http://www.logos.com/products/details/3671
and The New International Commentary on the Old and New Testament (NICOT/NICNT 40 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/5184
based mostly on the recommendations of others. And I have not been disappointed.Commentaries for Biblical Expositors by Jim Rosscup http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/COM4EXPROSSCUP
Spurgeon gave out recommendations as well. But if your idea and Floyd's plan are the wave of the future, I better get my Thayers order in quickly.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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What we're talking about is a lexicon like Thayer's which obscures Paul's meaning due to introducing ideas which Paul never had, as opposed to better tools which offer better data and thus help us to understand the apostles better.
I certainly respect your opinion, and would probably agree with you regarding your stance on this particular book if I were up on these things. However I would prefer Logos have the philosophy of "any book that intentionally discusses the Bible is a good candidate." If they get in the business of saying "this book is scholarly and this book isn't as accurate" they may weed out the books I would want due to the subjective nature of the criteria. If people want it and will pay for it make it available.
I haven't read every post in this thread so please forgive me if I'm misunderstanding things. I would say I agree with you that the quotes used to "sell" the book should indicated the time in which they were made about the resource.
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Looks like only the Baptists would be happy then
The Church of Christ censors would take care of the Baptist "problem.;' [:P] If the Baptists don't get to them first. [:O]
Seriously, There are at least two valid perspectives on this Thayer lexicon controversy.
1) Some users will only want a single lexicon ("the best" whatever that means to them.) and consult no ohters.
2) Some users will want several lexicons (maybe even an off-the-wall dissident) and consult them all for comparison. Then either choosing to go with a scholarly definition or developing a concensus of the thoughts from multiple works.
Call it cafeteria plan if you want but if you are investigating WHY a certain interpretation was popular during a certain historical period, you really ought to limit yourself to the standard of the day that people consulted. Isn't that what Biblical background studies is all about?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Spurgeon gave out recommendations as well. But if your idea and Floyd's plan are the wave of the future, I better get my Thayers order in quickly.
I would fight censorship tooth and nail...my concern, as I mentioned in the first post, is advertising something as the "latest thing", when it is not, and in an environment where many, many are not in place to be able to discern the difference.
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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Spurgeon gave out recommendations as well. But if your idea and Floyd's plan are the wave of the future, I better get my Thayers order in quickly.
I would fight censorship tooth and nail...my concern, as I mentioned in the first post, is advertising something as the "latest thing", when it is not, and in an environment where many, many are not in place to be able to discern the difference.
Except the thread title seems to imply Logos should do more than just make their advertising more clear. (Perhaps that was just hyperbole, but it is provocative and implies a censorship of a sort)
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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I would fight censorship tooth and nail...my concern, as I mentioned in the first post, is advertising something as the "latest thing", when it is not, and in an environment where many, many are not in place to be able to discern the difference.
OK. I understand and agree with you as far as the ad copy goes. I recognize the dated quotes but many would not.
The thread title did sound like it was requesting a committee to look out for the ignorant users. I'd like to wallow in my ignorant freedom for years before being rescued by textual critics, post-modernists and the the flavor-of-the-week TV evangelist. I'm certainly not saying any of those labels fit you. I checked out your impressive web site. [Y]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Call it cafeteria plan if you want but if you are investigating WHY a certain interpretation was popular during a certain historical period, you really ought to limit yourself to the standard of the day that people consulted. Isn't that what Biblical background studies is all about?
With all due respect. As a Baptist, and a person to whom the word censorship is now being applied, may I ask that we avoid hot-button language... Thanks, no harm, no foul.
I'm a Calvinist. I buy and love Wesley's works. I'm a Protestant, I buy and use and recommend Catholic works. I live in the 21st century, and also rub elbows constantly with the Greek Fathers. Etc., etc.
I use ALL the reputable lexicons that Logos sells (LSJ, LEH, BDAG, Ceslas Spicq, and Kittel, with due caution), plus Lampe, the Diccionario Griego-Español, Balz and Schneider, Ceslas Spicq, and Pierre Chantraine in French, etc.
I would not suggest that someone have a cafeteria plan of reputable plus not trustworthy. Thayer based many of his definitions, not on contextual studies, but on the basis of the word's etymology. This is generally regarded today as wrong-headed. Kittel has its own problems, and the buyer must beware too.
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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Frankly, I would be quite disappointed not to have both Gary and Michael post now and again. Both of them spoke very wisely and shared important and heart-felt concerns. Thank you, Brothers! *smile*
Peace and Joy in the Lord!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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What we're talking about is a lexicon like Thayer's which obscures Paul's meaning due to introducing ideas which Paul never had, as opposed to better tools which offer better data and thus help us to understand the apostles better.
I certainly respect your opinion, and would probably agree with you regarding your stance on this particular book if I were up on these things. However I would prefer Logos have the philosophy of "any book that intentionally discusses the Bible is a good candidate." If they get in the business of saying "this book is scholarly and this book isn't as accurate" they may weed out the books I would want due to the subjective nature of the criteria. If people want it and will pay for it make it available.
I haven't read every post in this thread so please forgive me if I'm misunderstanding things. I would say I agree with you that the quotes used to "sell" the book should indicated the time in which they were made about the resource.
Hi Philip, I agree, we're probably sympatico!
My only thought is that, Logos does not simply publish everything that's out there. It makes choices and publishes a small fragment of what is available. If we suggest that it make different choices, it is because we wish them to focus on what is the best out there, for the common good. Beyond that, I am entirely happy with them publishing books with which I am ideologically out of synch...which books I'll read and "retain what is good".
A publishing house has a didactic function, whether it consciously owns it or not. I notice that the Southern Baptist house that translates material into Spanish is saying in effect: these older, North American Baptist materials are the best, read and follow these. (By the way, I am a Baptist and just asked that people not connect "Baptist" and "censorship" in this forum!
That is of course their right.When Logos publishes material, in effect it is privileging certain works by making them readily available, and leaving others behind. This too is their right. But let us be frank: their decision to publish and promote a work will come across as "Logos offers this and says it's good, so it's probably trustworthy."
When I suggested they "shouldn't" publish certain works, perhaps I could have used a different verb. I don't believe it's necessary to boycott Logos, conduct write-in campaigns etc. My "shouldn't" is my own judgment call.
I'll keep buying (so many!) Logos books, whatever happens!
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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Spurgeon gave out recommendations as well. But if your idea and Floyd's plan are the wave of the future, I better get my Thayers order in quickly.
I would fight censorship tooth and nail...my concern, as I mentioned in the first post, is advertising something as the "latest thing", when it is not, and in an environment where many, many are not in place to be able to discern the difference.
Except the thread title seems to imply Logos should do more than just make their advertising more clear. (Perhaps that was just hyperbole, but it is provocative and implies a censorship of a sort)
No, no censorship, as I just mentioned in a note to Philip. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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Frankly, I would be quite disappointed not to have both Gary and Michael post now and again. Both of them spoke very wisely and shared important and heart-felt concerns. Thank you, Brothers! *smile*
Peace and Joy in the Lord!
Nice of you to say, so Milford...except that, once I make one comment, I feel morally obliged to respond to everyone who responds to me, and I have a sermon to write!! (the parable of the lost coin, Luke 15).
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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With all due respect. As a Baptist, and a person to whom the word censorship is now being applied, may I ask that we avoid hot-button language... Thanks, no harm, no foul.
I'm a Baptist too. And I don't really believe you were advocating censorship. The definition from the Century Dictionary http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/6749 of censorship is "..a regulation which formerly prevailed in most countries of Europe, and is still in force in some, according to which manuscripts, printed books, pamphlets, plays, and newpapers are examined by officials, civil or ecclesiastical, appointed for the purpose, who are empowered to prevent publication or suppress any parts of the text if they find anything in such books or writings obnoxious to the prevailing political or religious system...." (It's not Thayer's [:D] but it is apparently popular with Logos.)
I use ALL the reputable lexicons that Logos sells
Like you, I subscribe to the multiple resource method. The problem is who defines a "reputable" resource? Consensus is nice, if you fall in with the crowd. But what if they are all wrong?
Addendum: Your posts are clear, thoughtful and understood. It was only the thread title and Floyd's comment that got me going. Go prepare your sermon Brother. It is an awesome charge to keep.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Gary,
It seems to me you would "throw the baby out with the bath water." I believe we have the common sense to know these works are dated. That doesn't mean that they have nothing to offer. One should not use only dated material, but there are insights to be gained from these great scholars of yesterday.
Personally, I bought nothing by Hastings for the reasons you give. One the other hand I will be delighted to get the old Cambridge Commentaries.
You might consider the remote possibility that God spoke to some folks before our generation.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Just my 2 cents of non-expert observation: Gary IMHO touched very important and practical points we as pastors need to realize. It needs to be more obvious on the Logos page of the resource what is the time frame and background information for the resources like Thayer's etc. I have Thayer's lexicon in paper version, so my automatic reaction was to get it in Logos too. I was helped however by some discussion like this one to realize some pitfalls of just putting that lexicon (and similar resources which might be obsolete already) into the same line with my other, more current and better resources.
I believe it is not a matter of having it in Logos or not, but rather giving us some more information that would put it into the right perspective from the point of view the average Logos user.
Another matter is, if producing that kind of resources is somehow slowing down the the production of more needed resources, than I would say, don't do that Logos, focus on more needed and useful ones. However, if Logos has enough technical and human resources to produce those less useful (from the common user perspective) resources without slowing down the production of current, up-to date tools and resources, than it is fine with me. I just need to be more selective in choosing the resources I really need to buy. And my wife would say amen to that last point. [:)]
Thank you Gary for that thread.
Bohuslav
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