Bible Knowledge Commentary: Where is It?
Comments
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David C . Cook should look to Zondervan if they want to see what happens when a publisher becomes a software developer.
Amen. You are right John [Y]
IMHO whole thing of asking for the special permission to use the resources Logos has in their computer versions on the mobile platform is not correct to begin with. iPhone Logos has (or should have) let's say, "derived" right to use the resource on any platform, since they do not sell the resources separately, just for one platform (PC, MAC, iPhone etc.). Their iPhone Logos is bound to the computer version and so do the resources. I see it very illogical for the publishers to expect Logos to ask for any resource (thousands of them) a special permission, that is denied as it looks sometimes because the publisher thinks about having the resource in their own application. It sounds really funny to me, yes, funny! To think that I will buy their application just for one or two books if I have Logos already with all the power of computer Logos behind it and synced.
IMHO it should be understood the same way as having resource displayed on whether PC or MAC version of Logos. It is the same issue. Making it different is only unrealistic (or uninformed, as it looks from the emails above) approach of the publishers.
On the other hand I am thankful to Logos being willing to go that harder way to provide us with all the resources on the iPhone/iPad platform. The question is: will they have to ask permission again for any other platforms like Blackberry, Android etc.? What if they got all the platforms in a new permission but in 5 years market will give us totally new and different option? It just proves my point above.
Bohuslav
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Hey folks we should all be contacting David C. Cook. It appears that they now want to comeout with their own software. I used BKC on my Palm with Olivetree. So there has been an approved mobile version in the past. I am really disappointed in David C. Cook.
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If David C. Cook thinks I am going to pay for any book on their mobile device that I have already paid for with Logos they are crazy.
[Y] +1
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"Look at the Beatles with iTunes, etc etc."
As you probably know, the Beatles finally reached an agreement with iTunes. If the Beatles and iTunes can come to an agreement, surely Logos and David C Cook Publishers can, too.
Does anyone know if any developments have been made in this area?
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I have Olive Tree on my iPhone 4 and BKC is there to use...
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I have Olive Tree on my iPhone 4 and BKC is there to use...
For most of the companies, the problem is the iPad, not the iPhone. License agreements are in place for the iPhone, but not the iPad. I do wonder though, how is it that Accordance managed to get permission to make it available on their iPad app, yet no one else...
“... every day in which I do not
penetrate more deeply into the knowledge of God’s Word in Holy Scripture
is a lost day for me. I can only move forward with certainty upon the
firm ground of the Word of God.”0 -
Still not sure what the issue is. AS pointed out here olivetree sells it, and even Accordance owners of the resource can use it on our iOs devices, perhaps Logos' contracts are written quite oddly, as owning a resource in Logos format should give us the right to use it on any machine running the Logos platform.
-Dan
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AS pointed out here olivetree sells it
Yes, they do. But it cannot be used on the iPad.
“... every day in which I do not
penetrate more deeply into the knowledge of God’s Word in Holy Scripture
is a lost day for me. I can only move forward with certainty upon the
firm ground of the Word of God.”0 -
Still not sure what the issue is. AS pointed out here olivetree sells it, and even Accordance owners of the resource can use it on our iOs devices, perhaps Logos' contracts are written quite oddly, as owning a resource in Logos format should give us the right to use it on any machine running the Logos platform.
-Dan
As I understand it, Logos negotiated the contracts for a number of resources prior to releasing the iOS app about a year ago. So, they will have to (and are in the process of doing, for some resources) renegotiate with the publishers for access on mobile devices as well as on regular computers (PC, Mac). The reason some resources are only available on desktop is because they've been available longer (prior to the mobile app) and the licenses have not been renegotiated.
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Any updates on the BKC on iOS? Do we know if it is gone for good or if there is hope of eventually working out whatever licensing issues caused it to be pulled?
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Any updates on the BKC on iOS? Do we know if it is gone for good or if there is hope of eventually working out whatever licensing issues caused it to be pulled?
I am sure it will be back eventually, the problem as finally admitted by a Logos staff in a different thread is that in order for Logos to be able to make it available through Biblia, the contracts need to be rewritten for web access. Because the files are not normally installed on our machines it;s a different class of right. Hopefully Logos will allow us to install things to our devices from our computers eventually letting us put on any files we own.
-Dan
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Any updates on the BKC on iOS? Do we know if it is gone for good or if there is hope of eventually working out whatever licensing issues caused it to be pulled?
I am sure it will be back eventually, the problem as finally admitted by a Logos staff in a different thread is that in order for Logos to be able to make it available through Biblia, the contracts need to be rewritten for web access. Because the files are not normally installed on our machines it;s a different class of right. Hopefully Logos will allow us to install things to our devices from our computers eventually letting us put on any files we own.
-Dan
Good info, thanks Dan
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I contacted David C Cook Publishers
I just left a message at http://www.davidccook.com/feedback/index.cfm?step=2&requestType=11 requesting them to reconsider.
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*bump*
Please tell us that BKC is coming/returning soon...pretty please??
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Question/Issue/Feedback:
Do
you have plans to allow the BKC to be licensed to Logos and to Olive Tree for
use on the iPad. I find it interesting, and confusing that I can use it in
Accordance, but not the others. I have purchased the BKC several times. It is
one of my favorites. Thank you.Dear Mr Davis
Thank you for inquiring with David C Cook through Feedback.
Unfortunately, at this time we are not contracted with either Logos or Olive
Tree and do not have any immediate plans to be licensed with them for uploading
onto Ipad.In Christ
Web Services
Customer Care Department
____________________
4050 Lee Vance View
Colorado Springs, CO 80918
719-536-0100
www.DavidCCook.com“... every day in which I do not
penetrate more deeply into the knowledge of God’s Word in Holy Scripture
is a lost day for me. I can only move forward with certainty upon the
firm ground of the Word of God.”0 -
Maybe they would be interested to know that I will attempt to ensure they never get any more of my money!!!
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*bump*
*sigh* [:(]
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*bump*
Still holding out hope of eventually having BKC back on mobile devices!
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I feel your pain Kknight. [:(]
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I contacted Cook about this again about a month ago trying to get an update as to when they might have the BKC out on Kindle, thinking maybe i could at least get it on Kindle. He assured me that it was in the works but because of the amount of indexing and cross referencing that was required for this publication that it was taking a long time to complete. He had no idea as to when it might be completed either.
I know it's a big heavy job, but if it wasn't such a great all around publication a digital copy wouldn't be in such high demand (though it was on Logos for a while so not sure what happened there since they obviously had it in digital form at some point).
Anyway, hoping it's on the way SOON.
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it was on Logos for a while so not sure what happened there since they obviously had it in digital form at some point
Scott - The Bible Knowledge Commentary is available in Logos HERE. The issue is that the publishers have revoked the privilege for those of us who own the resource to view it on our mobile devices. It is still available in L4 MAC/PC.
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Sorry, yes it has always been available on a Logos base package. This discussion has been about the availability of the BKC on a mobile platform, which it was at one point and is no longer. I mis-spoke or didn't clarify that I was only referring to the mobile platform.
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his discussion has been about the availability of the BKC on a mobile platform, which it was at one point and is no longer
Presumably the problem is not whether or not the book is available on mobile devices, but whether or not the publisher insists that users pay for the privilege.
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Well I framed my question to them differently this time to try to find out the actual reasons (since we have been talking about this now for almost 2 years), I asked when I would be able to BUY the kindle version (there is actually a correlation to it being available on Kindle and on other mobile platforms) and their answer was issues with indexing and cross referencing. He said they were completely re-publishing the BKC in mobile digital form. Now why they can't let us have-use-buy the version they already have in the mean time???? Someone between Cook and Logos knows that answer.
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Now why they can't let us have-use-buy the version they already have in the mean time???? Someone between Cook and Logos knows that answer.
As has been demonstrated many times before with the NIV, Logos will not budge over this issue: If you own a resource license, you should be able to view it on any device you own. Logos will NOT make you (or allow you to) purchase a separate license. When the NIV was such a hot topic, there were many users who said: "I don't care. I would pay again to be able to view the NIV on my phone!" The problem with that view is that if one publisher demands it, why wouldn't ALL PUBLISHERS demand it? Currently I have close to 2000 titles out of 2200 available to view on my mobile app. I am not about to start paying to use those books, and Logos agrees.
When the person you spoke to said that they were "completely re-publishing the BKC in mobile digital form," that says to me that they are sticking to their guns and will make you purchase a separate license. If this is the case, it will not be in Logos.
I asked when I would be able to BUY the kindle version (there is actually a correlation to it being available on Kindle and on other mobile platforms) and their answer was issues with indexing and cross referencing.
I assume that the person you asked was using the term "indexing" differently than we use when we are speaking about "indexing" in Logos. Most kindle books are "plain jane." They are novels and the like. You start at the beginning and you read from cover to cover. Reference books are a different matter. Most people are not going to want to read the Bible Knowledge Commentary from cover to cover. Instead, they are going to want to be able to view a certain passage of scripture. They need a convenient way to navigate through the book. An index is needed. I am referring now to an old fashioned index... the kind you would find in the back of your paper book. In an e-book, an "index" is worthless unless someone creates links - otherwise it is just words on a screen. Likewise, when you are reading an article and you come across a cross reference, you must have a way to link to that portion of text. A book like the Bible Knowledge Commentary would be fairly worthless as a kindle book unless it had extensive work done to it. (Most kindle books have very little done to them - Vyrso books by Logos are the same).
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Well I framed my question to them differently this time to try to find out the actual reasons (since we have been talking about this now for almost 2 years), I asked when I would be able to BUY the kindle version (there is actually a correlation to it being available on Kindle and on other mobile platforms) and their answer was issues with indexing and cross referencing. He said they were completely re-publishing the BKC in mobile digital form. Now why they can't let us have-use-buy the version they already have in the mean time???? Someone between Cook and Logos knows that answer.
Well, offering something on a new platform in a new format (Kindle) is something different than just allowing the technically fine usage of an existing licence on an additional platform. I understand (more from reading a lot of forum posts and from watching what happens and what not than from official words by Bob or Dan) that Logos does not intend to have us users pay double or triple just to have access to a second or third platform. It seems they are consistent to this line even if that means a lot of complaining. No one knows if they internally relicence one or more licences, but it seems that we won't see a product offered with "pay $50 for PC and Mac, pay $100 for both plus ipad, $150 for these plus biblia.com".
While I personally don't own a mobile product right now and thus wouldn't mind paying less if offered a non-online licence, I see that Logos takes a stand that I applaud. If they were to give in to one publisher, they need to give in to all of them and lose their argument base for any future negotiations. Publishers that don't allow Logos to bring their product to the mobile devices may hope to sell more of them on Amazon or through a (until lately) mobile-only platform such as Olive Tree. It is upon us to tell them that this is wrong and that we prefer products from publishers who understand that we want to pay only once and that we prefer Logos over competitive formats.
My 2c
Have joy in the Lord!
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As has been demonstrated many times before with the NIV, Logos will not budge over this issue: If you own a resource license, you should be able to view it on any device you own.
Isn't this a law? Fair use? If I'm right we're allowed to circumvent DRM in order to watch DVD's on other devices we own as long as we don't distribute it. Seems to me that if someone were to challenge these publishers on this issue they'd loose in court. Under fair use I believe that if I purchase an electronic book for one device I have every right to view it on any other device that I have.
If we could sync books between our computer and iDevices then this would avoid this problem and it would be 100% legal no matter what the publisher said. Of coarse if Logos did that the publishers might act childish and try to retaliate against them.
I got extremely tired of waiting for Cook to cooperate and cease this obvious money grab. I've recently spent a bunch of money to upgrade the resources I've got. One of the requirements was that if I was going to buy it it had to be available for use on my ipad and iphone. I'm now finding that I can do without the BKC. I like it but it's no longer a must have for me.
To bad we can't organize a boycott of all titles that the publisher won't allow us to use on our mobile devices.
Oh well, my cyber rant which won't make a difference is over. That is, until the next time this gets me worked up
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Isn't this a law? Fair use?
No.
If I'm right we're allowed to circumvent DRM in order to watch DVD's on other devices we own as long as we don't distribute it.
I would be very hesitant to agree with this statement. It is not an issue of if you should be able to do so (I would agree with that), but wether or not you could be prosecuted for doing so (I believe you can - if unlikely).
Seems to me that if someone were to challenge these publishers on this issue they'd loose in court. Under fair use I believe that if I purchase an electronic book for one device I have every right to view it on any other device that I have.
No. You don't own the book, you own a license. That license tells you what you can and can't do.
I got extremely tired of waiting for Cook to cooperate and cease this obvious money grab.
I agree. [:)]
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"Isn't this a law? Fair use?"
IMO... What we have today is a systematic stripping of consumer rights for the sake of anti-piracy. (For example, the latest attempts in congress by lobbyist ... SOPA, I think is the name of one of the two bills) These issues are still 'young'. That this, they have not been around long, the digital question is still being 'worked out'. I'm afraid the consumer's position isn't looking like it will win the day. Maybe I am wrong.
This is a fundmental issue for the 'cloud' agrument. If everything comes from the cloud, we no longer really own anything except a VERY limited licence to view the resource... (as long as they keep it 'switched on'.... which this thread shows they can switch it off at will)...
Unless this issue becomes a BIG deal for more people... the consumer... (you and me)... are going to continue to lose our rights to the things we purchase in digital format... I don't pirate out ANYTHING... I don't use ANYTHING that is pirated... (yet... If the trend continues it will only force more of it by necessity... IMO)
I believe we HAVE to insist on the rejection of TOTAL cloud access for this very reason... We need to stop being o.k. with settling for a licensed 'right to view as long as they want us to'... and INSIST on having the RIGHT to the ACTUAL resource...
A class-action lawsuit would get the job done (against publishers not Logos)... However, I think the whole system is too far gone towards anti-consumer for it to win...
Consumer rights should be FIRST... and I think has been in the recent past... but not any more.
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"Isn't this a law? Fair use?"
IMO... What we have today is a systematic stripping of consumer rights for the sake of anti-piracy. (For example, the latest attempts in congress by lobbyist ... SOPA, I think is the name of one of the two bills) These issues are still 'young'. That this, they have not been around long, the digital question is still being 'worked out'. I'm afraid the consumer's position isn't looking like it will win the day. Maybe I am wrong.
This is a fundmental issue for the 'cloud' agrument. If everything comes from the cloud, we no longer really own anything except a VERY limited licence to view the resource... (as long as they keep it 'switched on'.... which this thread shows they can switch it off at will)...
Unless this issue becomes a BIG deal for more people... the consumer... (you and me)... are going to continue to lose our rights to the things we purchase in digital format... I don't pirate out ANYTHING... I don't use ANYTHING that is pirated... (yet... If the trend continues it will only force more of it by necessity... IMO)
I believe we HAVE to insist on the rejection of TOTAL cloud access for this very reason... We need to stop being o.k. with settling for a licensed 'right to view as long as they want us to'... and INSIST on having the RIGHT to the ACTUAL resource...
A class-action lawsuit would get the job done (against publishers not Logos)... However, I think the whole system is too far gone towards anti-consumer for it to win...
Consumer rights should be FIRST... and I think has been in the recent past... but not any more.
What we have is a trade between pricing/convenience vs. resale value and true ownership.
To illustrate, the TNTC/TOTC series of commentaries is around $450 new (as I recall) in print. Digital cost me $150. I can carry them everywhere (if I download them in the Logos app on my Android device), search, and have as a result lots of convenience. I saved $300 by buying digital. But I no longer own the books. I cannot resell them (well, technically I can, since Logos will transfer the license, but most other digital distributors don't allow this). But I'm willing to make that trade. It then depends on the stability of the company from which I have licensed the books (in this case, Logos), and how much I use them vs. the print copies because of that added convenience, to see in the long-term if it was worth the tradeoff.
Another thought: we have far more resources than we will likely ever use. But, as cheap as they are, it's worth getting a few hundred extras we'll never look at, to get the greatly increased savings on the various base packages. I agree that individual resources from Logos are still not cheap, and there are a lot of other issues to be worked out. Some companies, particularly publishers/printing houses are still behind the times in deciding whether they will be reasonable or not. But others are working to find an acceptable solution.
But even though individual resources aren't cheap, they do have value. I don't want Logos books to end up the equivalent of the hundreds of free/self-published books at Amazon - hundreds of typos, poor grammar, and so on. So there is still a role for a publisher/editor/related service provider. Their role must continue to change if this whole digital thing will work. But ultimately it will be what the majority of people do or don't do in terms of purchasing decisions that will influence what happens with digital publishing, along with the occasional public outcry to call out bad laws like SOPA/PIPPA, more than our venting on message boards.
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