Bible Knowledge Commentary: Where is It?
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Actually fair use is part of the copyright law. Both congress and the courts have made this clear.
It's been ruled that we can record copyright material for personal use. It's been ruled that we can rip CD's that we've purchased for use on other devices that we own. There is no difference between a CD and a downloaded MP3 as far as being able to use it on other devices. There is also no difference between a song, book or movie as far as copyright laws. A publisher can not limit our use of copyright material that we purchase for personal use on any devices that we own. The courts have already ruled on this. This is the real reason behind the push for cloud services. That and their desire to move away from one time purchase to subscription.
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Greg, thank you for clarifying.
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Just to clarify... (I don't want to be misunderstood). I don't agree with the position that we shouldn't be able to move our resources around, but you need to be careful with what you advocate. Breaking DRM is viewed as a crime by corporations, and it seems to be so. I will try to find the link that I posted earlier when I get a chance.
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Just to clarify... (I don't want to be misunderstood). I don't agree with the position that we shouldn't be able to move our resources around, but you need to be careful with what you advocate. Breaking DRM is viewed as a crime by corporations, and it seems to be so. I will try to find the link that I posted earlier when I get a chance.
Doesn't matter what corporations want to believe. They haven't challenged any person yet for circumventing DRM for personal use and they probably never will. Too much to loose with little to gain. They tried that when VCR's came out and lost big time! Courts have already said that it won't fly. Wonder why the entertainment industry is hesitant to go after the software makers that produce software that allows ripping of DRM content? Same reason. Right now most people run scared from it because of the threats that the entertainment industry has made but if they were to loose in court, well let's just say they don't want to take that chance.
If they thought they had a good chance of winning in court there'd be lawsuits all over the country. There aren't any because they know from case law that they'd probably loose so it's better to make hollow threats to keep it to a minimum then risk loosing in court.
Remember that I'm talking about purchased copyright material being reproduced for personal use on devices that you own.
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There is also no difference between a song, book or movie as far as copyright laws.
Not true. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act is very stringent about what it allows when it comes to breaking DRM.
Even if not taking DRM into account, it seems to me that Greg may mix up "fair use" (as a US-only legislation and court ruling practice explained e.g. here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use and with less detail but like a bit more authority here http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html ) with other limits to the copyright, such as given in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Home_Recording_Act - which law imho leads to the assumption, that in the US there is a difference between a song, a book or a movie.
From a user's perspective, the question of private format conversion of legally owned digital resources is difficult, not specifically enacted in laws or ruled out by judges in many jurisdictions, and a grey area. Maybe fair use or other arguments really entitle some/most users to bring their PDFs etc. into Logos or any other digital device. But: while it is legal for me in my jurisdiction to digitally "tape" music and make a backup copy of music CDs, it is not legal to upload these copies to the internet - which is what Logos would do if they simply put all resources onto biblia.com.
Thus the question is not fair use or private format conversion, but for the topic of this thread, whether the licence contracts Logos has with the publishers allows distribution to all platforms and the internet or not - and if they are quiet on this, how to exegete these.
But there is a business argument behind this as well: even if it could be argued that any old licence contract that allowed Logos the electronic distribution of resources on PCs may be interpreted as to allow the distribution to the web and any platform regardless of the publisher's consent, I don't think Logos would risk long legal battles with the big players (most of the Christian publishers belong to the word's largest publishing companies with deep pockets) or even being blacklisted by some of the publishers for future resources.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Remember that I'm talking about purchased copyright material being reproduced for personal use on devices that you own.
Greg,
I think you are right in respect with as (1) a good and clear-written law should look like and (2) also as probably many judges in many jurisdictions would rule for reproducing resources for personal use.
But in most jurisdictions such laws do not (yet) exist and judges rule inconsistently. They tend to differentiate between people doing things for personal use (such as listening to a downloaded copyrighted song) and people doing this for a living (such as people uploading such songs and getting reimbursed - remember that many Logos users use it for their "business" as pastors, teachers...) and people setting up technical platforms for the purpose of allowing other people to circumvent copyright (I think of my fellow-German who is no longer "The Fugitive").
You brought up the point of publishers "retaliating" which as a first step simply means for them ceasing to do business with Logos. If a larger number of publishers would do so, Logos were dead in one year.
Have joy in the Lord!
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But in most jurisdictions such laws do not (yet) exist and judges rule inconsistently. They tend to differentiate between people doing things for personal use (such as listening to a downloaded copyrighted song) and people doing this for a living (such as people uploading such songs and getting reimbursed - remember that many Logos users use it for their "business" as pastors, teachers...)
concerning use of by pastors
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
Quotes from above site
Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the
reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as
criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research.
Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining
whether or not a particular use is fair:-
- The purpose and character of the use, including whether such
use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes - The nature of the copyrighted work
- The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
- The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work
- The purpose and character of the use, including whether such
End quote
It is obviously going to be perfectly o.k. for a pastor to use and reference material for preaching in a non-profit format. I would also argue the above cited would clear most uses for the same purpose.
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You guys are getting sidetracked. This is about individuals using a book that they paid for on a device that they own. Nothing else. This falls squarely within what has been clearly defined as fair use here in the US by both congress and the courts going back to VCR, Betamax, tape recorders and CD's.
You can believe what comes from the entertainment industry if you want.
Of coarse none of this gets us the BKC back on our ipads. I really want it but I agree with the stance Logos is taking. They are looking out for our best interest. Cook is only hurting itself and their clients in the long run. It's not smart to not play nice with a large distributor.
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An interesting read: https://www.eff.org/wp/digital-books-and-your-rights#toc
Part of it says (emphasis mine):
As noted above, the DRM and contracts that accompany leading e-book readers and licensed content inhibit follow-on innovation. For example, the Kindle Terms and Conditions require that customers not "encourage, assist or authorize any other person to, modify, reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Device or the Software, whether in whole or in part, create any derivative works from or of the Software, or bypass, modify, defeat or tamper with or circumvent any of the functions or protections of the Device or Software or any mechanisms operatively linked to the Software . . . ." In other words, no tinkering with or improving your device! Innovators will be reluctant to experiment with these products if they could face lawsuits for their trouble.
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Are you able to distinguish to us whether it was a statement like "we have considered your request and the answer is no" or simply no reply yet but someone took something else as a yes.
I don't have that information right now but I will post here when I do.
Wonder about follow-up communication between Logos and David C Cook about mobile resource usage ?
Thankful for 89 % of my Logos library being available for mobile use without needing to purchase resource again, including favorite commentary series.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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We purchased these books but because of greed Logos and these so called Christian publishers are preventing us from using our books on the different devices that we have.
It is not Logos preventing us. Logos would love for us to be able to use all our books on the iPad app. It is 100% the publisher. Complain to the publisher. Contact them and if enough unhappy customers do, they may change their minds.
A complaint in this forum does no good if not followed up by contacting the one group that is responsible - publishers.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
We purchased these books but because of greed Logos and these so called Christian publishers are preventing us from using our books on the different devices that we have.
It is not Logos preventing us. Logos would love for us to be able to use all our books on the iPad app. It is 100% the publisher. Complain to the publisher. Contact them and if enough unhappy customers do, they may change their minds.
A complaint in this forum does no good if not followed up by contacting the one group that is responsible - publishers.
I wrote that 1.5 years ago. I found that I was wrong about Logos since then. My understanding is now that Logos is making stand for us in not letting publishers force us to pay for resources more than 1 time.
I tried to contact Cook through their site and it wouldn't go through.
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How many of us use David C. Cook Sunday School material. I think a note with the next check might help as well. They know pastors are their bread and butter for sales of Sunday School material. Let them know that not releasing the books reflects poorly on the company and may affect whether you continue to use them as a supplier for other resources. Translation: Release the books I already paid for, or we will look elsewhere for Sunday School materials.
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Got this response today from Cook:
... We are in the process of getting the licensing needed to have product available on different electronic devices. I am sorry that we aren’t moving as fast in that direction as you would like but we do realize that we live in an electronic world and that is the direction we are moving also. Some people feel we move too quickly and others feel we move too slowly. I guess we can’t please everyone. Thank you for your patience and understanding in this ever changing industry.
Web Services
Customer Care Department
____________________
4050 Lee Vance View
Colorado Springs, CO 80918
719-536-0100
www.DavidCCook.com0 -
I just wrote David Cook. We should continue to ask that they honor a one license allows reading on all devices that run logos. I am thankful that logos will fight for the customers like us in patience.
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Got this response today from Cook:
... We are in the process of getting the licensing needed to have product available on different electronic devices.
I think this sounds much more promising than the answers several months ago. Also, David C. Cook now publish about a hundred books on Vyrso and twitter about being proud of it, which should give them another reason to reconsider this respective licence (after all, other products of this publisher are available on mobile devices).
Have joy in the Lord!
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I was disappointed as you are not having the BKC available on Logos. I do have the Laridian Pocket Bible App and the BKC is available to use on the iPad on that App. I don't understand why Laridian has permission and not Logos, but I'm just happy to have it on my iPad.
HP Laptop Win 7 | iPad 4 | iPhone 6 | L5 Platinum | Galaxy Mega 6.3
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I don't understand why Laridian has permission and not Logos
Because you paid a separate license fee to use it on your mobile device. Logos COULD do the same, but what would happen if every publisher demanded a separate license for mobile? Ultimately, you would have to purchase every book twice that you wanted to use on your mobile app. Its better to not have the BKC than to lose access to the rest of your library.
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I bought BKC many years ago on my PDA and did not pay anything extra to use it on my iPad2. Maybe I misunderstand what the extra fee is. Or perhaps Laridian PB was a mobile device to begin with that I paid nothing extra when I use it on my iPad2.
HP Laptop Win 7 | iPad 4 | iPhone 6 | L5 Platinum | Galaxy Mega 6.3
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Alabama24, I'm reading Laridian Pocket Bible and I don't think they have this policy you are referring to...
Laridian Policy:
When you move from one of our supported platforms to another, you take your books with you. We have a “buy it once” policy — Bibles and reference books you bought for the phone you owned last year can be downloaded and installed to your new phone (assuming they're available for that phone). If you own PocketBible for Windows, books you buy for your phone can also be installed on your Windows PC for those times when you're studying at your desk. Just buy the appropriate Bible reader program for your new device, then log into your account to download your books!HP Laptop Win 7 | iPad 4 | iPhone 6 | L5 Platinum | Galaxy Mega 6.3
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Bev - I know nothing of Laridian. What I do know is that the policy of Logos is to allow you to view your resources on all devices… unless there are technical or legal (licensing) reasons. Perhaps Cook has given Laridian a different contract than Logos. Are you sure that it works on their computer app? Their policy seems identical to Logos: SEE HERE
Please note that for technical and licensing considerations not all books and Bibles are available for all computing platforms.
EDIT: Upon further review, it does appear that they can offer the BKC on both platforms without an additional fee.
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I think Logos needs to check into this or perhaps another person at Logos may see it differently...something just doesn't seem right at Logos with the BKC.
HP Laptop Win 7 | iPad 4 | iPhone 6 | L5 Platinum | Galaxy Mega 6.3
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I think Logos needs to check into this or perhaps another person at Logos may see it differently...something just doesn't seem right at Logos with the BKC.
Have you read this thread from the beginning? In it you will find correspondence from Logos & emails that forums users have posted from David C. Cook. Logos does not have permission to allow us to view the BKC. David C. Cook states this in an email (which you can read in THIS POST).
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Third attempt at posting...Yes, read from beginning. Commendable for contacting David C Cook. Just my opinion there is more to this. Thanks for your help, you do a super job on the forum.
HP Laptop Win 7 | iPad 4 | iPhone 6 | L5 Platinum | Galaxy Mega 6.3
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The Bible Knowledge Commentary should be available on mobile devices and Biblia.com now.
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