using BH root morphology analysis with visual filters

Request for help with understanding/using BH root morphology analysis with visual filters in logos 10?

Is 57.1 righteous (or even righteous man), tsaddiyq, (2x) lists “root” as tsaddiyq in context menu and root section of Bible word study.
Is 57.11 righteousness tsehdaqqAh (albeit in construct with pro. suf here) lists root as ts-d-q.

Use of a corresponding words visual filter (either lemma or root or both) will not link these three instances in Is 57.

Q 1: Logos proposes that these words come from different roots, correct? (even if TWOT 1879, for example, places as under a single root)

Q2: Is the listing of tsaddiyq as the “root” of tsaddiyq, logos' manner of indicating an “unknown/unassigned” root (since typically “root” is understood as the tri-radical/three consonants, even if occasionally vocalized with attendant vowels for a base verbal form, unlike these vowels)?

Q3: Is there supporting documentation indicating how logos decided between such root linkage/no root linkage (so maybe there was a single dominant lexicographical source for root determination)?

Q4: Perhaps I need a better visual filter if I want to link such words (having the same three consonants and a similar semantic nuance) at a glance. Can you suggest such a filter? My real concern is more literary and canonical (quickly discovering or re-tracing echoes in a biblical pericope) than lexicographical.

Any answers to any of these 4 questions appreciated.

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MJ. Smith

Which Hebrew Bible are you working with?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

Logos 23 search of Lexham Hebrew Bible for root.h:צַדִּיק OR root.h:צדק includes Isaiah 57:1 and Isaiah 57:12 in search results.

Considering most Hebrew words has three consonants for root, Isaiah 57:1 root assignment puzzles me.

Isaiah 57:1 has adjectives while Isaiah 57:12 has a noun.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Don Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246591#Comment_1246591

Oops. Apologies. I think a mistaken verse citation may have prompted your question. The word for (your-)righteousness is at start of verse 12, not the end of v.11.

I either mis-copied verse from another source or when was reading through Is 57 using the LHI with discourse features on I overlooked versification.

When I came upon the Heb word, I thought, "I just read a related word (although apparently not according to the logos parsing) so let me see how often such occur in the chapter." So I went to the ESV and clicked on the translated word first in one verse, then the other; but the visual filter I had did not show any linkage. I tried several options for the corresponding words filter and none showed any linkage. Then I checked the context menu and the bible word study for the roots assigned by logos.

Don Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246592#Comment_1246592

That search would indeed return the results I wanted. But to use it, I would first have to know that logos had assigned different roots and what those were. I was hoping there might be a filter to circumvent that.

I, too, find the assignment of the mss form of an adjective as a "root" puzzling and can only assume it is a means of indicating an actual root is unassigned for that form; but I wait to be informed otherwise.

Although not in this example, by way of logos, it is quite common for adjectives and nouns to be linked to a common BH verbal root. In fact, the adjective in v. 1 is a substantival (= nominal) use ("righteous man" in many translations). My own opinion is that biblical Hebrew uses adjectives in place of nouns in such a manner far more than English, where such usage is often more highly marked for effect (as in "the quick and the dead," or "the good, the bad, and the ugly") and more commonly retained in older Bible translations like the KJV.

Thank you for the response.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246592#Comment_1246592

Logos 23 search of Lexham Hebrew Bible for root.h:צדק OR root.h:צַדִּיק OR righteousness includes Isaiah 30:10 in results.

Gloss text in LHB can be searched, which is helpful when seeking lemma's & roots.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Don Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246613#Comment_1246613

Appreciate the thought.

However, that search syntax still requires knowing the different assigned roots.

Or if searching solely for a specific English gloss one may come up with two few results (so tsehdAqAh, if searched using English righteousness, would miss alternative English glosses, like vindication or right, etc.) or too many results (some Bible translations searched for righteous, might collect renderings for yAshAr, straight, or maybe even TOwb, good, etc.). Then there is the tedious task of checking and sorting through those types of results, composing and running additional searches....

I am still hoping for some type of filter that would show all potential root linkages readily - even if some assigned a (non-)"root" - without searching and sorting. Even if a common root cannot technically (according to differing authorities) be identified, such words that are related by the tri-radicals/3 consonants involved (and, in this case, semantically related as well) tend to be one element of a well-used and well-known tactic in biblical Hebrew communication (cf. popular etymologies and wordplays involving similar-sounding words or homonyms.)

Maybe you could use your search syntax expertise to i.d. similarly differentiated proposed roots in logos (that could then be turned into a filter)? Very roughly the idea being something to the effect (I obviously am no programmer) of "In the root field, return results with I-consonant, II-consonant, III-consonant all matching, ignoring any vowel pointings." [I imagine the few quadriliteral roots would rarely have a similar variety of root identification and are not typically used repetitively.]

A less useful, but potentially helpful alternative would be access to a listing of words with similar "(non-)roots" as given for tsaddiyq (unassigned to a tri-radical/verb form); maybe you have a search syntax to pull up all such?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246592#Comment_1246592

Logos 23 search of Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) for righteous includes Isaiah 30:10 , Isaiah 57:1 and Isaiah 57:12 in search results.

Isaiah 30:10 has root.h:נכח (with LHB gloss righteousness/truth)

Isaiah 57:1 has root.h:צַדִּיק

Isaiah 57:12 has root.h:צדק

Logos 23 search of LHB for term:(root.h:צדק OR root.h:צַדִּיק OR root.h:נכח) OR righteous shows Daniel 4:24 has a different color

Daniel 4:24 has root.a:צדק

An addition to my Logos To Do list is creating Inductive Precept visual filters for Logos Hebrew & Logos Aramaic roots/lemma's (tedious repetition & refinement), which will include using Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible for checking roots & cognate words.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Don Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246674#Comment_1246674

Yes, those are just the type of extraneous results (one manifestly different root and a cognate Aramaic root) that I would want to avoid, which a search including an English gloss might turn up on occasion.

The Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible, like the logos "root" tagging, lists the adjectival form as a "root." Perhaps logos updated its tagging to conform to this resource? (But my edition has 2017 copyright and likely the logos tagging predated that?) Which brings us back to one of my original Qs - the source of the root [and (non)-"root"] tags?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246699#Comment_1246699

TIP: Avanced "Root" Search Example - Logos Forums may be of interest,

Don Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246705#Comment_1246705

Thank you.

That still seems to require foreknowledge of different root taggings for my purposes.

But perhaps along those lines you might be able to an appropriate syntax search.

After reading that post, I thought about using, while limiting search to in a particular pericope like Is 57, something like

root.h:צדק WITHIN 50 WORDS root.h:*צ*ד*ק

However that did not pull up v. 1 and v. 12 in Is 57.

Any chance you might clean up that search syntax so that it would pull up the "root" tsaddiq as well as the root ts-d-q? That is, any "root" assignment that includes any vowel pointings in addition to the traditional 3-consonant root?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246755#Comment_1246755

To the best of my knowledge, you can only search based on what is actually coded. There are multiple coding schemes from which to choose but I don't know Hebrew. Someone else would have to direct you to alternatives.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246755#Comment_1246755

Any chance you might clean up that search syntax so that it would pull up the "root" tsaddiq as well as the root ts-d-q?

Suggest using Untransliteration to select desire root for searching: e.g. h:tsdq => root.h:צדק

h:tsaddiq => root.h:צַדִּיק

Logos 23 Bible Search in Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) Chapter for root.h:צדק WITHIN 144 WORDS root.h:צַדִּיק includes Isaiah 57 in results.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Don Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246783#Comment_1246783

Thank you for your efforts, KS4J.

Apparently, however, I am not communicating my request clearly and will make only this final attempt.

I want to pull up anything tagged with a (non-)"root" that I might relate to a traditional 3-consonant root sequence in a pericope - whenever I am unaware of such non-traditional "root" tagging and its unknown specific vocalizations. (That is, without adding all possible adjectival and noun vocalizations, while of course acknowledging that sometimes a root is referenced using the pointing of a base verbal form, like qatal and qittel.)

(Although it may be argued such (non-)"root" tagging is "traditional" - in the sense of a lexicon merely listing a common form separate from a root when particular scholars have found, to them, convincing reasons not to link such word-forms to a 3-consonantal root, I don't think such mere listings are traditionally termed as "roots." Here I have been using the modifier "traditional" applied to "root" as a specific 3-consonant sequence which serves as a basis for word formations, at least in a hypothetical morphological sense, via the addition of specific patterns of vocalization and/or add-ons combined with semantic association).

[Did you not yourself initially described tsaddiq listing as a root for tsaddiq as "puzzling," since it was not a 3-consonant sequence like others in logos and, on top of that, vocalization of an adjective and not a verb?]

So, in this instance, I was initially unaware that tsaddiq was listed as a "root" here. Merely reading the Hebrew text of Is 57, I personally made a connection between tsehdAqAh (although construct with pro. suff) with a root of ts-d-q and earlier uses of tsaddiq, not knowing that logos had tagged tsaddiq as having a different "root" tsaddiq. I initially simply wanted to quickly recall and link the verse that included tsaddiq, as well as find any other words that included the consonantal sequence ts-d-q if they should appear in ch. 57. I attempted to do so using visual filters but the corresponding words filters I have, or at least as I used them, did not produce my desired result.

I was primarily hoping someone might show me how to get such results (even if such a one might consider historical linguistics a purer and loftier pursuit, or even assert that original Hebrew audience hearers would have been similarly informed scholarly sticklers and drawn no such association as I did).

Don Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246773#Comment_1246773

Thank you for consideration!

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246792#Comment_1246792

Concordance tool can show roots in a passage: e.g. Isaiah 57 (ordering by Heading sorts roots alphabetically = easier to see connections)

Personally a bit surprised to see lemma שָׁלוֹם in two roots.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Don Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246846#Comment_1246846

Now that actually does pull up the "root"/adjective form of tsaddiq (!), even without a requisite awareness of that tagging, and looking through the concordance search results I could draw my association with root ts-d-q and the lemma tsehdAqAh.That is indeed a way to get to the kind of result I am after.

So this innovative solution is a testament to both your creativity and your perseverance.

However, running the concordance on each pericope, then saving and looking through the listed results for all possible associations and sometimes perhaps needing to check back and forth on some verses for a fuller context, I confess, is not something I will regularly spend the time and effort doing. I really would prefer a search/visual filter that would make all these sorts of such associations available with a click on an individual word, if I happened to hear an echo while reading through the Hebrew text. (As an older guy, I thought one of the benefits of computers was speedy access to information so as to minimize some need for additional searching, sorting, and processing of data. Then what I make of that data, of course, would be on me.)

PS. As with my previous comments, I personally would characterize the lemma for shAlOwm as being tagged in logos with a single root sh-l-m and also with a distinct noun form/(non-)"root," here identical to the MSS form. But if you look through the lexicons, they seem to sometimes want to see a closer association of the lemma shAlOwm with the actual root, shAlEm, which has nuances like wholeness or fulfillment rather than the distinct noun form shAlOwm, having more a nuance of peace or tranquility. Logos, by including both forms, seems to be saying either derivation might fit in the context and it is "taster's choice," [or at least the logos editors have refrained from making a choice in such an instance].